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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Henry “Sandy” McMurray
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: February 27, 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Pilot Henry Sanford “Sandy” McMurray is interviewed about his military and commercial flying
careers. He discusses his service with the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II, including
his flight training with the Civilian Pilot Training Program, his service with the 305th
Bombardment Group in the European Theater, and his service with the Air Transport Command
in the Pacific Theater. He then shares highlights from his time as a commercial pilot for ONAT
(Orvis Nelson Air Transport) and United Airlines and as a test pilot for Boeing, where he rose to
the position of head of Production Test Flight before his retirement in 1981.
McMurray’s son, Scott Sanford McMurray, also participates in the interview.
Biography:
Henry Sanford “Sandy” McMurray was a retired Boeing Production Test Pilot with a career
spanning 32 years, from 1949 until 1981.
McMurray was born on July 14, 1921 in San Leandro, California to Welborn and Harriett
McMurray. He lived there with his parents and younger sister, Elizabeth, until joining the U.S.
Army Air Forces in 1941.
McMurray went to McKinley Grade School and San Leandro High School, transferring to
Hayward High School from which he graduated in 1939. While in high school he filled out a
questionnaire about possible careers and indicated that he was going to be a pilot. Working
toward that goal, mechanically-minded McMurray attended San Jose State College taking
engineering classes. The Civilian Pilot Training Program had just started there and McMurray
was one of the first 50 candidates selected. Earning his Private Pilot Certificate by the summer of
1941, he took his physical and was accepted into the U.S. Army Air Corps on November 7,
1941. Attending training at “Kelly-on-the-Hill,” he selected multi-engine training, knowing that
would further a civilian career as a pilot.
On July 3, 1942 he was assigned to the 305th Bombardment Group, subsequently known as the
“Can Do” group, at Muroc Field. Completing his B-17 training there, McMurray found himself
and his crew in Chelveston, England by November. McMurray flew his first mission on
December 12 to Rouen, France in the B-17 “Unmentionable Ten” and his 25th mission on July
26, 1943 striking Hanover, Germany. Returning to the United States, he was transferred to the
Air Transport Command, where he earned his Instrument Rating while delivering bombers,
fighters, and transports. Assigned to the 7th Ferry Command, he was based in Wilmington,
Delaware on D-Day when he had the opportunity to fly in the Pacific Theater. McMurray’s
father had disappeared in 1942 with the fall of the Philippines and he was eager to see what
information he could find. He learned that his father had passed away at Cabanatuan on June 14,
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1942 of cerebral malaria. McMurray spent the last year and a half of the war bringing wounded
troops out of battle and flying in replacements.
Discharged from the U.S. Army Air Forces on January 3, 1946 at McClellan Field, California,
McMurray quickly found work as a flight engineer for Orvis Nelson Air Transport (later
Transocean Airlines). After three months with ONAT, he was hired by United Airlines, flying as
copilot primarily on West Coast routes. On one of these flights, he met his wife, Marjorie, a
United Airlines stewardess. They were married in San Francisco on December 6, 1947. About a
year later, United furloughed 88 pilots, McMurray included.
McMurray was then hired on at the Boeing Company. When United Airlines asked him back in
October 1949, he opted to stay with Boeing. For his first couple of years at Boeing, McMurray
wrote pilot handbooks. He subsequently moved to a test pilot position. As a test pilot, he started
out copiloting Stratocruisers, C-97s, B-50s, B-29s, and other variants of these airframes. He
transitioned to jet-engined aircraft with the B-47 and also flew the KC-135 and B-52 as part of
the team developing jet-engined refueling capabilities for the U.S Air Force. Moving to the
civilian side of Boeing, he flew the 707, 727, 737, and 747 extensively in Production Test Flight.
In 1966, McMurray’s manager, Clayton Scott, retired and McMurray was promoted into his
position as head of Production Test Flight. He held this position until his retirement in 1981.
McMurray died in 2021 at 99 years of age.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
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Index:
Introduction and personal background .........................................................................................6
Flight training, part one ...............................................................................................................7
Service in the European Theater, part one....................................................................................9
Flight training, part two ............................................................................................................. 12
Service in the European Theater, part two ................................................................................. 14
Service with the Air Transport Command, part one ................................................................... 16
Story about an ill-fated takeoff in a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress .............................................. 17
Service with the Air Transport Command, part two ................................................................... 19
Service in the Pacific Theater .................................................................................................... 20
Father’s military service and death ............................................................................................ 22
Marriage and career with United Airlines .................................................................................. 24
Career with Boeing ................................................................................................................... 25
Connections to The Museum of Flight ....................................................................................... 30
Thoughts on different aircraft and a close call on the runway .................................................... 31
Ferrying a B-17 from Hawaii to California ................................................................................ 33
Memories of the Red Barn ........................................................................................................ 35
Additional stories from wartime service, part one ...................................................................... 36
More on the Red Barn and stories from flying career ................................................................. 37
Additional stories from wartime service, part two...................................................................... 41
More on his father’s career and service ..................................................................................... 44
Bailing out of a Curtiss C-46 ..................................................................................................... 46
Closing thoughts ....................................................................................................................... 48
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Sandy McMurray
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
STEVE LITTLE:
Hello. My name is Steve Little. I’m an oral history interviewer with The
Museum of Flight. Today is Thursday, February 27th, 2020. We’re interviewing Sandy
McMurray at his residence in Seattle. Sandy has a long history in aviation, with his first
solo flight in 1940, followed by his enlistment in the U.S. Army Air Force. After
completing 25 harrowing missions in B-17s over Europe, he joined the fight in the
Pacific Theater. When the war drew to a close, Sandy stayed flying with United Airlines,
where he met his future wife, Marjorie. In 1949, Sandy joined the Boeing Company as a
test pilot. That long and storied career ended with his retirement some 32 years later.
Thank you, Sandy, for taking time to participate in The Museum of Flight’s Oral History
Program. It’s an honor for me to be here with you. I’d like to start out by getting some
background information. If you would state your full name as you prefer pronounced and
then spell it for me, please.
SANDY MCMURRAY:
Okay. I’m Henry Sanford McMurray. McMurray, M-C-M-U-R-RA-Y. People that call me “Hank” don’t know me. My middle name was Sanford, and
with the family that I had, “Sandy” seemed to stick. So from here on, I am now called
Sandy. So when people call “Sandy,” I know they know me. If they call “Hank,” they
don’t.
SL:
That’s a good screening for crank calls. Can you tell us when and where you were born
and did you grow up in that same area?
SM:
Yes. I was born on the 14th of July 1921 in Hayward Hospital, and I grew up in San
Leandro, California my whole life until I went into the service.
SL:
Okay. What were your parents’ names and what were their professions?
SM:
My father was Welborn G. McMurray, and he was a lawyer and kind of an accountant.
And my mother was a housewife, and her name was Harriet McMurray.
SL:
Okay. I know your dad was a World War I veteran as well. [unintelligible].
SM:
That is correct. My dad was in finance in World War I, and he stayed in the service—in
the Reserve all through the main years between World War I and World War II.
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SL:
Oh, that’s good. Through the Depression. That had to have been a big help.
SM:
That’s correct. And he went back—was called back into service in 19—what was it—
1941.
SL:
Okay. And how about brothers and sisters?
SM:
I have one sister. She’s 95 years old, and she’s living. And I talk to her every evening.
Her son puts me in communication with my sister, and she seems to be doing really well.
And she’s living in Manteca, California.
SL:
Manteca? Okay.
SM:
In a rest home there.
SL:
That’s pretty cool. You guys have got a long, long longevity in your family history,
apparently.
SM:
Correct.
SL:
That’s good. A little bit on the education. So where—you went to high school, grade
school down in the same area?
SM:
Yes. I went to McKinley Grade School, and then I went to San Leandro. And I
transferred to Hayward High School, where I graduated from Hayward High School in
1939. And from there, I went to San José State College until 1941.
00:03:53
[Flight training, part one]
SL:
Were you involved in the Civilian Pilot Training Program?
SM:
Yes. If I can go back a little there on the thing?
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
I got a—I learned to drive when I was 12. I got a traffic ticket for driving without a
driver’s license when I was 13, and I got my first driver’s license when I was 14. And my
parents let me buy my first car when I was 15.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
So I enjoyed driving and was rather mechanical, working on my car and whatnot. And
then about 1935, they sent kind of a questionnaire. They asked us what we wanted to do
as a career. And I’d never really given it much thought. And a friend of mine said he’d
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like to be an airline pilot or airmail pilot. I thought, “You know, that sounds quite good.”
So I put down that I was going to be a pilot. Well, Hayward there—or rather, the Oakland
Airport was only three miles from home, so henceforth I spent a lot of time down at the
Oakland Airport. And I got a chance to sweep around the hangars and whatnot and meet
some of the pilots.
And so to be an airline pilot, you either needed an awful lot of money. The Boeing
School of Aeronautics was down there at the Oakland Airport, and it was a terminal at
that time for United Airlines. The San Francisco Airport had not really been developed.
The Boeing School of Aeronautics was in Hangar 5 down there, and of all things,
Wellwood Beall, who came here to Seattle, was running the school in those days. And to
be an airline pilot, you had to have 200 hours in a commercial license and instrument
rating. Well, the price of flying was so expensive, the only way that you could really
become an airline pilot was from the military side. And to be a military pilot in those
days, you had to be—you had to have two years of college, and you had to be 20 years
old and physically fit. So the only way that I saw that I could be an airline pilot was to—
through the military route.
So consequently, I went from Hayward to San José State, and I took engineering there at
San José State. And lo and behold, the Civil—CPT, Civil Pilot Training Program, was
just started there, and they needed 50 candidates to be pilots. And fortunately, there had
been a little difficulty, so they were glad to take the first one. So consequently, I learned
to fly there. And the CPT Program, you ended up with 40 hours of flying time and a
private pilot’s license. The other thing that was real good at San José is they had flying
clubs down there where I could fly at a very reasonable rate. They were getting fuel
through the college at 10 cents a gallon in those days.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
And we did our own maintenance on the airplanes. And the head of the department there
had an A&E license, so he could buy off all the work that he had supervised our doing.
So consequently, I had kind of a heads up. So in 1941, I had my two years of college, and
I was—turned 20 in July, and so I went and got a physical in July, right away. I had to
wait in flying—to get into flying school until November 7th, 1941. That happened to be
one month—
SL:
One month.
SM:
—prior to World War II. I might mention at this time that my dad got called back to
service. By then he was a major, and he went—I took him to Fort Mason, and he took a
troop ship and took them almost a month to go from San Francisco to Manila. And he
was—had a job as fiscal officer for the Far Eastern Air Force at that time. And General
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Claggett was the commanding officer of the Far Eastern Air Force, and he reported
directly to MacArthur. So my dad was—fortunately was on military row there, and he
met with MacArthur and Skinny Wainwright in those days. And I have a letter—a whole
pamphlet that Scott’s put together for me, on the letters that my father wrote to my
mother at that time. So she kept kind of a history of when World War II started there with
the bombing, and he’s looking up at—in a trench there, looking up at the bombers and
whatnot.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
So that was kind of interesting there. I went to flying school—I’ll just put it this way. The
first class of 42F, which I was in, was the first ones to go through a placement setter.
Prior to that, the Cadets went directly to the flying school that was going to teach them to
fly. In doing so, the class ahead of me was all dressed in blue, and we got our uniforms
and whatnot that we were going to wear as officers once we graduated from flying
school.
So we were there for about five weeks, and I was a—it was called “Kelly on the Hill.” It
was in Texas. It’s now called Lackland Air Force Base on the thing. We spent five weeks
there. We got our uniforms and all our shots and everything, and there, where I went to
primary flying school—primary flying school was in Bonham, Texas for me, and it
happened to be that that was the home of the Speaker of the House, Senator Sam
Rayburn. [laughs] So there was some political connection there. I spent five weeks there,
and fortunately, I was able to go to Randolph Field. We flew B-14s there at Randolph.
And from Randolph, I went to Ellington Air Force Base. We had a chance from basic
flying of whether we wanted to be fighter pilots or bomber pilots.
SL:
I was going to ask you that.
SM:
And I wanted [unintelligible] multi-engine training, so consequently, that’s why I flew
the bombers on the thing. So I flew the AT-6 on the—in flying school and graduated in
July 13—excuse me, July 3, 1942.
00:11:49
[Service in the European Theater, part one]
SM:
And from there, I was assigned to the 305th Bomb Group that was training in Muroc. I
might mention there that the commanding officer, the CO, happened to be Curtis E.
LeMay. We spent there about a month and a half or two months training. And I was the
copilot on the thing. And from there, we proceeded to go overseas. We went—we took
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our airplanes to Geiger Field and took a troop train to Syracuse, New York, where our
brand-new F—B-17Fs were delivered to us.
From there, we flew over to England. We went by way of Presque Isle, and from there
to—oh, excuse me—Gander, Newfoundland. And Gander, Newfoundland, we went to
Presque Isle. And then the RAF navigators, they didn’t dare trust us to fly down around
England with our inexperience in flying. So they took us down—an RAF navigator—
down to—their first base was Grafton Underwood, which we—immediately we changed
to Chelveston. So all my bombing missions were flown out of Chelveston.
I might mention here that we arrived over in Prestwick, Scotland in—just a little before
Thanksgiving, November of 1942, and we flew our first bombing mission—I believe it
was in December of 1942. And you have a list there of the missions that I flew. I flew as
copilot in about half my missions as copilot, and then I got a crew of my own. When they
brought the crews over [unintelligible], why, to gain experience, they took the pilot and
he flew as copilot for us because we had more experience in what to anticipate in the way
of combat on the thing. So I got my own crew there.
And it might be interesting to note here then, we were—there were four groups over in
England at that time that went over there, and there was the 91st, there was a 303rd,
305th, and the 306th. And we each had 36 airplanes. We had 36 pilots on the thing. And
the missions there, the formation type we flew, were probably 18 airplanes we put in.
There was a lead group—lead squadron of six, there was a high squadron of six, and
there was a low squadron of six. So when we made turns on the thing, it was impossible
to turn around and keep that formation. And so what happened is the low squadron could
still stay in formation by sliding over in the wedge. Instead of being this way, it was just
reversed. [demonstrates] And we could do a 360-degree turn without having to change
power, which was—I believe that formation was probably developed by Curtis—or
General LeMay in those days.
I might mention that we were pretty inexperienced. We didn’t know what to experience
from the Germans. By the same token, the Germans didn’t know what to expect from us
on the thing. They were pretty smart, though. They found out that approaching from the
side was a bad thing because we could put the top and the ball turret and the waist gun all
on them on the thing. And furthermore, once they went by the formation, we could shoot
at them, where they had nothing to do to shoot back with. The tail position didn’t work
too well because we had tail gunners. They could shoot at them likewise. So they got
pretty brilliant on the thing, and they had the—what they called a head-on attack. And
they would get out ahead of the formation, and then they would turn around and shoot at
the formation on a closing head-on attack. And the beauty of that one was that, once they
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went by the formation, they just did what they call a split-S. They just drove straight
down. So they—and consequently, that was pretty devastating for a while.
So initially we took the bombsight out of the nose of some of the airplanes, and we put
tail guns on the—up front there. And so consequently we had two .50-calibers on certain
airplanes that could shoot at the thing, and this—I might mention on the thing there, the
Fs had—didn’t—were short-ranged airplanes, compared to—they got—to the Gs and the
H. And they—on those airplanes, they put what they called the chin guns on them—on
the thing. And they put fuel in the outboard wing panels so they could fly further. And
they did have a defense on the thing.
As far as statistics on the thing, when we were there, it was rather devastating on the
thing there. There was a—I figured, in our group that initially went over, that 37 percent
came home or survived, and 63 percent were shot down. And of the 63 percent, about
half of them were killed. The other half were prisoners of war.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
I finished my last mission, and fortunately, I was able to fly with my squadron CO. And
we led our whole group. And it was kind of interesting and kind of funny, because
before, you were always looking with a lot of people around you, and all of a sudden, you
were out front and everybody was behind you. [laughter] Who was going to protect me
on that last mission?
I might mention, too, that our bombing altitudes in those days is the lead would generally
fly at 25,000 feet and the lower group would fly at 24,000 and the top would fly at
26,000. Well, fortunately, the last mission, the lead got mixed up and he flew at 26,000,
and we got jacked up to 27,000. By the same token, I think the German flak was all set
for the lower altitudes, so consequently, we got a free pass on the last mission as far as
flak was concerned.
Okay. That kind of concludes my combat. I did finish my 25 missions, and I did get the
Distinguished Flying Cross and I got the Air Medal with three clusters on the thing.
SL:
Were any of your crew injured during some of those flights?
SM:
Fortunately, I was very, very lucky. Nobody on the crew that I flew on ever got injured. I
might mention on one of the missions, too, as we were coming off the target on the
thing—we were over by Heligoland. I think we were bombing Wilhelmshaven at the
time. And we were coming back, and we got hit with a flak. And it was a great big bang
and a lot of blue flame to my left there. I was copilot at the time. And what had happened
is we got hit with flak on the thing, and it hit the oxygen bottles. That destroyed them,
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and it looked like we were going to be on our way down. I might mention, the co—the
pilot’s wheel he was flying had severed the aileron control, and he lost aileron control of
the airplane on the thing with all the confusion going on. And fortunately, my oxygen
system was not struck, but his was.
So in the confusion of lack of oxygen and everything, he felt that we were going to have
to leave the airplane with his [no lateral?] control. So I looked at it. And flying along, we
were just starting to leave the formation. And lo and behold, my aileron controls were
still functioning. So we got back into formation. I was able to get the airplane back in
formation on the thing, and the pilot was able to get oxygen. And we called around to see
if any of the other crew was injured. And in the back, nobody was injured. They really
didn’t understand what had gone on. And we called down into the nose, and nobody
answered. We sent the engineer down. Lo and behold, the navigator and the bombardier
had jumped out. They thought we were on our way down. And fortunately, they were
lucky. We were just getting over the water, and I guess they landed back on land because
they spent the rest of the war in a prisoners-of-war camp starting in about April of 1943.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
So as far as statistics on the thing, on the roommates there—there were three to a room—
this friend of mine, the other pilot, he survived and so did I. But we packed up five pilots,
four of which had—did not survive.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
So that pretty well ends my combat.
00:23:05
[Flight training, part two]
SL:
That’s difficult. I do have a couple questions on early training for that. Because you went
through the Civilian Pilot Training, flying Piper Cubs, probably?
SM:
Yeah. I trained on J-3 Cubs on the thing.
SL:
Then you go to the next level.
SM:
That was a tandem yellow airplane. Tandem.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
And my instructor there was—he was a crop duster. So he flew crop dusting in the early
morning hours, and he taught CPT—
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SL:
Instructed you guys later.
SM:
—as an instructor.
SL:
So you go from primary—or CPT to primary training? Or basic?
SM:
Yes. No, I went—which was very fortunate for me because my instructor in primary
flight training had done the same thing. He was a CPT instructor, so when he came to
[unintelligible], he said, “Well, this is what we did in CPT. I know this. You know this.
And this is the way we’re going to do it in [unintelligible].” So we got along real well,
and I had no trouble soloing or anything like that.
SL:
What kind of planes were you flying then?
SM:
That’s a PT-19. That was a Fairchild with a Ranger engine, inline engine.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. Okay. And then after that is where you went to the
advance—the twin-engine training after that or [unintelligible]?
SM:
Well, from the PT-19, going to Randolph, they had the BT-13 and the 14. The 14 was the
better of the two airplanes. It was very similar to the AT-6, except it had a fixed gear,
smaller engine than the AT-6.
SL:
Okay. And then it’s after that is when you got the choice to go fighter planes or multiengine?
SM:
Yes, that’s correct. They asked us then where we wanted to go.
SL:
And you were allowed to make the decision at that—early in the war?
SM:
Well, at least I made a desire. I think everything was statistics in those days. And I say
probably most of them wanted to go to fighter pilots, and so I had no difficulty.
SL:
Because I did hear late in the war—later on in the war, anyway—they didn’t really allow
you to make that choice. They were sending pretty much everybody to bombers.
SM:
Oh, yeah. It got to the thing later on that when the people went to the replacement center,
they either went to pilot training or they went to being a navigator or bombardier. So
some of them later on on the thing, as I understand, didn’t necessarily have that choice.
00:25:48
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[Service in the European Theater, part two]
SL:
Yeah. I think that’s right. Were any of your missions in the B-17 leafletting missions? I’d
heard there were some early missions where they were dropping leaflets.
SM:
Excuse me. What was that again?
SL:
Where they were dropping leaflets early on?
SM:
I guess we might have dropped—I don’t remember dropping leaflets. One of the bombs
we used to drop were these firebombs, and they were with the magnesium in a crate. And
they would—we would drop them and they’d have a time where they would scatter, with
the idea that, if you’re going after a city or some large area, why, you wanted to firebomb
it.
I might mention, when we first started bombing over there, we were bombing France. So
we were very careful. We didn’t want to injure any French.
SL:
Sure.
SM:
And so predominantly our targets were sub pens. [unintelligible] in Lorient were targets.
And then we’d go for railroad yards to disrupt them. I might mention, too, in—I believe it
was about May, we bombed France there at Paris, and it was a Renault factory. And it
was kind of in a loop of the Seine River. And we did an excellent job. We pretty well
contained all the bombs right within the Renault fort. And they were building trucks at
that time for the Germans. And I think we pretty well wiped that target out, and we got
the Unit Citation, a little blue bar that you can put on your uniform, for that particular
mission.
SL:
Excellent. How is it—how do you deal with the emotions of flying into combat? It has to
be terrifying, I would think.
SM:
You lived with it. It had its toll, no question about it. And it’s—you know, I don’t know
how to say it.
SL:
No, I—
SM:
It’s just one of those things. You fly the mission. I might mention, once you open the
throttles on a B-17 running down the runway, you’re concentrating on flying the airplane
and flying your position in the airplane. And I know there were targets there where you
can see a group ahead, and they’d be just a big, black cloud of flak. And you were going
to have to fly through that. And so what I always did was just to lower my seat and
concentrate on the airplane and don’t look out the airplane.
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SL:
Fly the airplane. Yeah. Yeah. I know in Chevleston, I think, is where you were for most
of the time?
SM:
Yes.
SL:
That seems like a very small town. So off—when you weren’t flying, what did you do?
SM:
Well, we generally stayed at—we stayed right in our barracks in our area there. And I
might mention that we played a lot of poker there on that thing because we had nothing
between missions. And so depending on how successful you were, you either had a poor
week or a couple of weeks, three or four weeks, where you stayed with the Red Cross.
And if you had a flush one, well, you went to the Cumberland [unintelligible] Royal
Hotel and lived it up.
SL:
[laughs] So one of the photographs I saw doing some research was it’s a small farming
town, and they showed pictures of some of the soldiers helping the farmers.
SM:
I can’t say that. Strangely enough, the British had a lot of these Irish farmers that were
helping out on the thing.
SL:
Okay.
SM:
And, see, there’s Ireland—you’ve got Northern Ireland, and you’ve got Southern Ireland.
And strangely enough, the Southern Irish didn’t join the war in World War II. It was only
the Northern Ireland. And that was a religious between Catholic and Protestants on the
thing. So we had farmers working alongside the fields by the airdrome itself. And I’m not
so sure. The Germans had a pretty good spy system going.
SL:
It could well be.
SM:
I might mention right here, too. I give lots and lots of credit to the ground crews that
worked on the airplanes. You could hear them out there working and running the engines
at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, and all they were doing is putting the airplane together
with a flashlight on the thing. And it was cold, rainy, and everything else, and they did a
wonderful job of fueling the airplanes, arming the airplanes, and maintaining it. And my
hat’s off to them. I’ve always admired that. And I can say that, even today, the mechanics
out there, even at Boeing there, working at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, they at least have
lights, but it’s still cold.
SL:
It’s cold, yes. They didn’t have hangars that they were working in.
SM:
Right.
00:31:30
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[Service with the Air Transport Command, part one]
SL:
Yeah, yeah. So what happened after you left the European Theater?
SM:
Oh, that was good. I left the—I finished my mission, and the next day they gave me the
DFC and gave me orders to go back to the interior of the United States. So I took the train
that night, and they took it up to Presque Isle. And from Presque Isle, I got on a—got a
chance to ride on a C-54, and we went to—from Presque Isle, we went up to Iceland and
then down to—oh, I’m trying to think of the name—no, excuse me. We went to
Prestwick. Prestwick.
SL:
Oh, okay. That makes sense.
SM:
To Gander and then to Presque Isle—excuse me, Maine—and then the next day, they
took us down to Mitch Field, Mitchel in New York, on the thing. And that’s where I was
getting my orders, and they asked me what I wanted to do. And I told them I wanted to
fly transport airplanes. So they sent me up. They said, “Well, we’ll send you some orders
once we know what we’re going to do.”
So I got a 30-day delay en route on the thing, which was a leave of absence, and I went
home. So I got a chance to stay home for not quite 30 days on the thing. And the orders
came probably two weeks after I had arrived home, and I was going to be transferred to
the Air Transport Command, ATC. And I might mention, I was one of the early, what
they call, “war wearies.” I completed my 25 missions, and I was a called a “war weary.”
So they sent me to the headquarters of the Air Transport Command. Once I got there,
they didn’t exactly know what to do with me, so they gave me my choice of where I
could—where I wanted to go. So I could have gone to Long Beach or Dallas or different
places, and I chose Great Falls because they were ferrying B-17s out of the factory. And I
thought, well, why not fly an airplane I’m familiar with?
SL:
You already know it.
SM:
So I was transferred to Great Falls. And that would have been in about August—about
September of 1943. And I flew B-17s out of the factory, new ones, and we took them to
Cheyenne and Denver, where they were modifying the airplanes. There were a lot of
things that they wanted to get the airplanes ready for combat that Boeing couldn’t do in
their organization here. And so they ran the modifications. And from there, we took the
airplanes to Kearney, Nebraska and Casper, and that’s where the combat crews came to
pick up their airplanes on the thing.
I might mention, too, it was kind of an interesting thing. I checked out in most of the
bombers on the thing. I got checked out in a B-24, and I wanted to fly an airplane back to
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England to see what it was like [unintelligible]. So in about January of 1944, why, I flew
a B-17, and we ended up in England. And now I was going to have to go back and ride on
a C-54 all the way back to Great Falls. And I didn’t think too much of that. So I asked if
there was any airplane to be ferried, and they said yes, they had a B-24 to ferry to Ogden,
Utah. So I thought, “Boy, this is great.”
At that time—it was still in the winter—that the preferred route was on the southern
route. So I had a chance to fly, and we went from Land’s End to Marrakesh. Marrakesh,
we down to Dakar and down there in Africa. And from there, we flew across to Fortaleza,
and Fortaleza, we went up to Georgetown, British Guiana, and from there to Borinquen
Field, which was in, oh, Puerto Rico. And then from there to Miami and back up to
Ogden. So that was—it took almost—probably about three weeks to make that trip. And
it was a wonderful trip because I—when I got—landed there, they weren’t in a hurry to
get me out. So if I wanted to stay a day or so and visit, why, enjoy yourself.
00:36:55
[Story about an ill-fated takeoff in a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress]
SL:
That was all right, yeah. You did mention earlier, before we started talking on tape, you
talked and showed me a picture of a B-17 losing a landing gear in Land—in Gander.
SM:
Oh.
SL:
How about that story?
SM:
That’s a little story in itself. When we ferried airplanes, we went from Presque Isle to
Gander, and then we were going to go in from Gander to Prestwick, Scotland. And I
might mention, there’s a big beacon out there called Derrynacross, and it was a big,
powerful beacon that, once you get close to Ireland like that, why, you could home in on
Derrynacross. But when we got there, our—they had a nine-man crew at that time, and a
tenth man happened to be my squadron CO. My squadron CO decided, “Hey, Sandy,” he
says, “Why don’t you let me sit in your seat on takeoff and then we’ll switch and I can
sleep all night and you can work.” Well, unfortunately, he was having difficulty. He
didn’t know how to start the—we had primed the engines on the thing. When it’s real
cold up there, you have to inject fuel into the top cylinders to get the engine to run on the
thing. And he didn’t know how to work the plunger—the primer valve on the thing.
So we got delayed on getting the engine started, which put us behind bomber schedule.
And consequently, they were hurrying and wanted to know where we were and the whole
hundred yards. So we tore down to the takeoff and cleared for takeoff. And when we
swung into position there, as a crew, we had always worked together. Why, I just reached
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down—as copilot, it’s my job to lock the tail wheel because we were lining up for the
runway. Well, he neglected to do that, and unfortunately, on takeoff we veered to the left
and ran off the side of the runway. I thought that was the end. I figured the plexiglass
would probably take it a little on the front and that would be it. But we came to a stop on
this stub runway, which was extremely careful. We wanted to get out of the nose of the
airplane, but the door to the compartment to get out of the nose wheel was sitting on the
ground. So we had to wait until everybody else got out of the airplane, and we were the
last ones to get out. And needless to say, I don’t think I could have—anybody could have
gone any faster than I did going out that rear door.
SL:
Oh, I bet.
SM:
Because I was on my way, and nobody was going to stop me. [laughter]
SL:
I can imagine. The plane would have been full of fuel, I assume, too, because you were
just taking off.
SM:
Right.
SL:
So it would have been a dangerous spot. Oh, yeah.
SM:
Well, what we did is we struck a pillbox of all things. Fortunately, nobody—they were
down in the box itself on the thing. And we struck it. It was a concrete structure, and the
airplane went in the air and knocked off part of the gear. And when we came back on the
other, we hit the ground real hard and collapsed our gear. So we slid down the runway.
And no fuel tanks were ruptured, fortunately. And so, consequently, we survived that
one.
SL:
Did the plane survive? Was it repaired?
SM:
Yeah.
SL:
Put back in? Yeah. So that was part of the delivery. So that’s part of the ATC that we—
that you were getting into?
SM:
That—
SL:
That was part of the Air Transport Command for delivery or was that—
SM:
No. No, no. No. This is when we were taking our airplanes from Syracuse over to
combat.
SL:
Okay.
SM:
Or, yeah.
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SL:
Okay. So, yeah. I kind of got you off track there.
SM:
Right.
00:41:00
[Service with the Air Transport Command, part two]
SL:
So, yeah. Let’s go ahead and back into the ATC to what you were doing there.
SM:
Okay. They had ATC and—let’s see. I got in a [unintelligible] airplane out of Long
Beach. And I was not instrument-rated at that time as far as air traffic—Air Transport
was [command?]. And so the weather was bad, and I went to Hollywood and had a time
with my crew. And when I went the next day to get the airplane, why, the operation
officer called my squadron CO and he said, “We’ve got a couple of your bad boys here,
Harry.” [laughter] So they sent me back to Great Falls on the thing, and I thought, lo and
behold, I’m going to be in a world of hurt. So I got all the weather sequences of—that
occurred down there, and there was only about a 30-minute window that the thing was
instrument-rated the whole time.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
So I went back, and they wanted to know why I was—hadn’t ferried the airplane. And I
told them it wasn’t instrument-rated and I didn’t want to disobey any air orders of flying
instruments without an instrument rating. And they said, “Well, you aren’t going
anywhere until you go through instrument school there.” So I went through instrument
school, and I did—I got my instrument rating.
And then the regulation at that time up there at Great Falls, well, they wanted us to be an
instructor for the next class on instrument rating. So I started out flying in the back end of
a B-13, teaching instrument flying. And they called up and said, “We need a class to go
down to Palm Springs to check out on fighters.” And I told them I wasn’t necessarily
interested and I was already in instrument school and I was stuck there. And he says,
“You won’t be stuck,” he says, “If you get on that airplane at 2:00 in the afternoon to
Palm Springs to go through fighter school.” So I spent 30 days down in Palm Springs.
And it was December of—
SL:
Nice time.
SM:
—19—I guess it was 1933 [sic]. Yeah.
SL:
‘43.
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SM:
And I got checked out in the P-40, the P-39, the 47, and the 38. And the 38 was kind of
my favorite. And they allowed us to ferry the 38 to Dallas, which was great. So I went
through the fighter school and whatnot and ferried the P-38 to Dallas. And when I got to
Dallas, rather than sending me home, they said, “We’ve got to ferry some C-47s to Great
Falls.” They were going to the Russians on the thing. I told them I wasn’t checked out in
a C-47, and they says, “You go up there to Tulsa—” I believe that’s where they were
built. “And we’ll check you out.” So I went up to Tulsa and made a couple of landings,
and the next day I ferried a C-47. And I remember we went from there to Dallas and
Dallas to Great Falls. So that was my checkout in a C-47 or the DC-3. I always called it a
kiddie car because it was so easy to fly compared to the B-17.
SL:
[laughs] I would imagine that would be so different.
00:45:06
[Service in the Pacific Theater]
SM:
So that pretty well concludes that. By then, they wanted to—they were looking for
transport pilots, and that’s really what I wanted anyway. So they asked me if I’d go to—
transfer to Wilmington, Delaware in the 7th Ferry Command at that time. And then I
went down to, oh, [unintelligible] Miami. I can’t think of the name of the base right now.
And we went down there to a four-engine instrument school. We flew B-24s, C-87s in
those days, and C-54. So I got checked out in a C-54 and the C-87 both as a four-engine,
instrument-rated pilot, and I was sent back to Wilmington, Delaware. And just about that
time—it was about June 6th or something in that time—why, that’s when they had
Normandy, went across. And so we were all set up to fly the wounded back to the States
on the thing and personnel—one of the fellows got a hold of it and found out that they
needed three pilots to fly out in the Pacific in the Hawaiian Islands on Hickam Field. And
so that was a war I was interested in because my dad had been missing in action. So I
volunteered and ended up over in Hickam.
So we went to Hickam, and our—at that time, they were fighting on Saipan and they had
no airports. So we flew from Hickam, and we stopped at Johnston Island for fuel and then
into Kwajalein. And the hospital ships would bring the wounded to Kwajalein, and then
we were flying them back to Hawaii, Hickam, on the thing. And that went on, oh, for a
little while. And they started on the 54s of flying all the way from Hawaii back to, oh,
Hamilton Field. So I got transferred back to Hamilton there. And so we started flying
from Hamilton all the way out on the thing, the hospital. By that time, we had taken over
Saipan, and we were flying—we didn’t go into Tinian, but we did go into Guam. So
primarily we flew to Guam and to Saipan on the thing. And there were a lot of trips we
made, like down to Tarawa and Guadalcanal.
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And they were—MacArthur was slowly fighting the—coming up from the—Australia.
And I remember when they hit the Philippines. And I wanted to go there, and so we flew
a trip from Saipan to Leyte on the thing, and we landed on a mat—steel mat on the thing.
And they were loading the litters on the C-54—or DC-4 or 54. And about that time, there
was an air raid warning or something like that going in, and they were still loading them.
And some wise guy says, he says, “Well, this is the biggest thing on the field.” He says,
“They’re bound to hit it.” He says, “But they can’t hit anything anyway.” [laughter] And
about that time, they called off the air raid. I don’t know what it was. And we headed off,
taking off there.
And I might mention the—on that strip there there was a B-24 that had collapsed one
gear on the thing. And, of course, they had to keep that runway active because they were
attacking the enemy with fighters and whatnot. And so I saw a tractor destroy a B-24.
One of these great big tractors ran across the wing and broke it off, and then he took the
blade and shoved the whole fuselage and everything off the side of the runway and then
shoved the wing—the rest of the wing off. And the fighter—the airport was ready, and he
opened the airport probably in about 15 or 20 minutes.
SL:
Wow. Was that on that pierced-steel planking, too?
SM:
Yeah, on the steel mat.
SL:
Yeah. Wow.
SM:
So, let’s see. I flew—as we got larger and I’m flying the thing, why, I got transferred up
to [Fairfield?] [unintelligible], so I still flew C-54s. And I remember when we were flying
54s out there, they had four DC-4s. They called them the Green Hornet. And we didn’t
know exactly what they were doing on the thing, but the Green Hornet were actually
supporting the atomic bomb—
SL:
Oh, really?
SM:
—on the thing. And, of course, when they dropped the atomic bomb in—on Hiroshima,
why, with Tibbet [sic – referring to Paul Tibbets] there, he took off from Tibbet—I mean,
Tibbet took off from Tinian, and that was kind of a tough airport because it was at sea
level and the ones at Guam and Saipan had about 100—they were about 100 to 150 feet
above sea level, so they could sag down a little after takeoff. But when you took off from
Tinian, you couldn’t lose any altitude at all. You were right in the water on the thing.
So anyway, they dropped that, and then about three days later, they had to drop one on
Nagasaki. And that’s when the Japanese decided that they should do something better
than what they were doing. So about that time, they rounded up all the C-54s they could
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on the thing, and we went up to Okinawa on the thing. And they had 54s all over the
airport, and so when they—we were there probably about three weeks before the
armistice. They were sitting there negotiating on the thing. So when they finally signed
the armistice on the thing with MacArthur on the deck of the battleship, that morning,
why, we had flown in the occupation troops from Okinawa. We had enough fuel. We
went up there, offloaded them real quick, and came back without even shutting the
engines down.
I might mention, when it comes to loading the airplanes, we didn’t know what they were.
And fortunately, on the military airplane, the jeeps and whatnot, they put a gross weight
on the side of the thing there, but when it came to putting .50-caliber boxes or something,
the people were picking it up and saying, “Well, that’s about 150 pounds or 100 pounds.”
So we really didn’t know what our true weight was on takeoff. And we had only flown—
I believe it was about 68,000 pounds, 67,000, 68,000 pounds. And they said at least we
could go to 100—to 73,000 pounds. So we were flying about 4,000 pounds heavier than
we normally had been flying in the airplane as our margin and with the idea that we
didn’t even know. We were probably over that.
SL:
Right.
SM:
And in 54s—or the—yeah, the 54s—we had a margin on the thing that, if we lost an
engine, we had no problem flying out on three engines. But with the additional weight,
why, you better keep all four going.
SL:
It had to have been a little dicey, yes.
SM:
So that pretty well finishes the—my service.
00:54:19
[Father’s military service and death]
SL:
Well, what about your father?
SM:
I came back, did a little instructing on 54s, and then I got out. And I got out in January of
1946. And I mentioned I got what they called a Chinese promotion. I had been captain
over two years, so I grad—when I retired, why, they gave me a majority. So I was a
major in the Air Force Reserve.
SL:
Okay. One thing you mentioned was going to Hawaii for your father, trying to find—
because he’d been missing?
SM:
Oh, yes.
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SL:
Yeah.
SM:
I might mention that.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
When we went to Manila on the thing, the first flight, I went into town to find out if I
could—or if they knew anything about my dad. And they said no. And I got back to the
base, and I got a call from some sergeant. And he says, “Captain,” he says, “I’m sorry,
but I’ve got some sad news.” That my dad had died of cerebral malaria in the [14th?] of
June of 1942 on the thing.
SL:
So he died almost two years—
SM:
Some of the letters he wrote there—I guess they might even come out with MacArthur. I
don’t know. But he had mentioned there that he found a valentine for my mother. It was a
great big maple leaf that he had sent her as a valentine. And it would have been on the
14th of 1942 that he sent to her. That was probably the last letter that she had gotten.
And, of course, he had mentioned—he couldn’t come out and say, “I was in Guam,”
other than he did mention that, “I could see Guam—or Corregidor and the China Sea.” So
we were pretty sure that’s where he was. And the other thing is he was 56 years old, and
he couldn’t have made that death march, I don’t believe. I think that he was probably in
Corregidor when Wainwright and all of them surrendered, and they were trucked to
Cabanatuan. That was a prisoner-of-war camp.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
SM:
So that concludes that chapter on my dad.
SL:
That’s—that had to have been difficult, though.
SM:
Yeah. And I got home from one of the trips going back and forth to Fairchild, and I was
at home there in San Leandro. And the doorbell rang, and they had a chaplain or whatnot
to announce to my mother that he had passed away. But she had already got the word
from me a couple months prior to that.
SL:
Yeah. That’s an awful tough time, no doubt. You were probably a big help to be there
when that happened—
SM:
Yes.
SL:
—you know, for your mom. Yeah.
00:57:26
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[Marriage and career with United Airlines]
SM:
So anyway, that was that. So anyway, I got out of the service, and it was kind of strange.
Orvis Nelson started the ONAT company, and he had got the contract that United
Airlines had to fly from Hamilton Field to Hickam. And unfortunately, I didn’t get it in
time to be a pilot, but he gave me a job as a flight engineer. So I flew as a flight engineer
for about three months there. And at that time, I had been applying to United Airlines,
and they finally gave me an offer to go to work for them. And he was a United Airline
captain, and I asked him, “What would you do if, you know, if you were in my position?”
And he says, “I’d go to work for United.” He says, “We don’t know where we’re going to
go.”
So anyway, I went to work for United in May of 1946. And I went through—back to
Denver to school, and we were there about, oh, a little over—a little less than a month.
And fortunately, I was assigned back to San Francisco. So I flew DC-3s—kiddie cars, as
I call them—for United Airlines. In those days, why, we were flying them up and down
the coast to Vancouver, Washington and down to San Diego and eastbound as far as
Denver, Cheyenne. So I flew copilot on them.
And it was kind of interesting there because we were allowed an orientation flight, and so
I decided that this orientation flight sounded pretty good. I got a cockpit pass on that, and
I could get a quarter fare for my mother. So I talked her and—she and my aunt there, to
go to Vancouver, Washington. So we flew up to Seattle there, and then they changed
crews there and whatnot. And the airplane was getting ready to go. Well, I climbed in the
cargo door up on the nose. And my mother was concerned that I might not be on the
flight. She asked the stewardess if she would go up and see if the third pilot was there.
And I said—yeah. And I said, “That’s my mother back there.” She said, “I didn’t know
that was your mother.” [laughter]
But anyway, we got up to Vancouver, and they were going through customs and whatnot,
and I got to talking to the stewardess. And I thought, “She’s kind of an intelligent
woman.” I said no more about her. But be as it may, why—we went back to San
Francisco, and I flew first on the San Francisco until just about Labor Day of 1946—no,
‘47, on the thing. And I got transferred to Seattle on the thing. I had my choice to go to
San Francisco—or Seattle or Los Angeles. And I didn’t care for Los Angeles. I didn’t fly
down there. So I went up to Seattle.
So I get to Seattle, and lo and behold, about my second or third trip up here was an early
morning one there and this good-looking stewardess came in there. We filed the flight
plan, and I went into the coffee shop. And it’s still there on the old terminal on Boeing
Field.
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SL:
Yeah.
SM:
And we had a cup of coffee. [laughs] And from there on, it was—that’s how we all kind
of met there. And we ended up getting married in December 6th, 1947 on the thing.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
And I might mention I continued to fly for United Airlines and all through ’47. And our
firstborn was in October of 1947 and—no, excuse me, ‘48. Yeah, October 1948 on the
thing. And a month later, I got news that United Airlines was furloughing 88 pilots, of
which I happened to be in the group on the thing. And what was happening, I can’t fault,
you know, looking at it now. But they were coming with putting DC-4s, four-engine
airplanes, to fly the same routes we were flying. DC-3s were 21. So it was just a matter of
statistics. If you put a 54 on the run, and you get rid of two DC-3s. And so there was a
surplus of pilots on the thing. One thing that had happened is that the junior pilots to us,
they were making flight engineers out of them. So we thought, “Well, this won’t be bad.
We’ll just be a flight engineer.” And United says, “Uh-huh [negative]. We don’t have—
we’ve got two pilots’ lists. We’ve got a pilots’ list, and we’ve got an engineers’ list. And
the engineers’ list is full, and so you’ve got no job.”
SL:
Wow.
01:03:15
[Career with Boeing]
SM:
So here I am with a wife. And this was starting in November—no, December. That was
it. They furloughed us in November, and no job December. Well, fortunately, I was able
to go to work for Boeing Airplane Company. So I went to work for Boeing Airplane
Company. My first job was writing pilot handbooks on the thing, and I did that until
about June, May or June, of 1949 on the thing. And it was great. I had a chance to meet
John Fornasero. He was chief pilot in those days. And Clayton Scott, who was head of
production of flight test.
And there was an offer, the job, to become a pilot in June of 1949 on the thing, and that
worked out real well because I’d had quite a bit of experience and whatnot on the thing.
So I was flying captain on B-50s, production flight test, in October of 1949. And a little
after that, United Airlines called me back from furlough and said, “You can come on
back.” And so I went out to SeaTac there and talked to [Bill Grohn?], the chief pilot at
the time. He says, “Well,” he says, “You can come back and fly copilot for us on the
thing, you know.” And it was a lower salary, and I said, “That isn’t much of a choice.”
[laughter] So I got a chance to fly.
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And I might mention here now, about that time, Boeing was getting into this aerial
refueling. We had what’s called KB-29s. Initially, they made a couple of B-29s into
tankers, and then we’d refuel behind them. And I—it was kind of a unique position, is the
fact that I had flown a lot of formation flying in B-17s in combat. So the way I look at it,
flying large airplanes close together was old hat. And a lot of the pilots there that hadn’t
had that experience on the thing, they were a little bit more concerned about flying that
close in formation, refueling where—flying the other.
And I might mention one thing, too, is on this refueling, one day we were flying a whole
group—we were coming back from a mission—and we were flying in a formation, and
our flying position, the whole works, and everything was fine. And I looked down at the
attitude gyro, and we were in a 30-degree bank. And you didn’t realize—here you were
in space with respect to the ground. You were in a 30-degree bank. Well, when it came to
refueling, it was the same thing. You never looked at the ground. You looked at the
airplane you were flying at. So all you had to do was to hold the same attitude that the
airplane that you’re refueling. So there were times where we had no problem at all of just
refueling in a turn or something like that. It didn’t make any difference.
SL:
That’s amazing to me.
SM:
So I might mention, I was lucky. I’ve flown the B-17, and then I flew the B-50s. And we
had B-29s, the KBs, and then we had the Stratocruiser. I had a chance to only copilot on
the Stratocruiser. And then we had the C-97s. I think we built 270 or something, the
Stratocruisers. And I went down to Wichita, where the B-47 was being built, and got
checked out in a B-47 and flew a little of that here. And then the B-52 came on, and so
we flew the B-52. And then the KC-135 was a military tanker. And about that time, we
started in on the 707-series of airplanes. So I had a chance to fly the 707-100 and -300,
and then came along the 727. We flew all the 727s, and then we flew the 737, which was
built after that. And then I had the chance to fly the C-47—747, excuse me. The 747. And
I flew that from the 100 through the 200s.
And they got about that point in time that Boeing got the idea the airlines were
furloughing—or not furloughing. They were retiring the pilots at age 60 on the thing. It
was Quesada’s rule on the thing. He wasn’t much thought of by the airline pilots. But
anyway, Boeing adopted that, and they had a pretty good program. They had a pilot relief
program that we retired at age 60. And today, now they can go up to age 65 or something
and still fly. But those rules have changed.
SL:
So what was your transition from prop planes to jet planes? What—did you transition,
like, on the 367-80 with Tex Johnston or [unintelligible]?
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SM:
Well, what happened is—see, in a jet—the big jet was from the B-47—propeller to the B47. From there on, it was all jets. There was—I was flying the B-47 and then the B-52
and then the KC-135. It really didn’t—the KC-135 and the 707 were very similar. They
were four-engine airplanes, and going from one to the other wasn’t any problem.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. Did you get a chance to fly with Tex Johnston a little bit?
SM:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SL:
Any stories about him?
SM:
Not that I’m going to tell about.
SL:
[laughs] We do have a video of him over there when he rolled the airplane in front of
Seafair, but yeah. [unintelligible].
SM:
Yeah. I know all about it.
SL:
Oh, yeah. I’m sure.
SM:
So, no, that was about it. I might mention here. I got my own airplane. Clayton Scott had
left the company, and it was in building—float airplanes and doing a lot of things. And so
I got interested, and we ended up buying a Beech Bonanza. That’s the V-tail.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
Honestly, it was a lovely airplane. And I had three different models of them, and I had
them for 20 years.
SL:
Oh, wow.
SM:
And we used to—where people had cabins and things like that, why, it was great. What
we did was we’d fly up to [unintelligible] Roche Harbor up on San Juan Island, and I’d
get a—you could get Volkswagens for $50 or $100. I’d put it up on the island, and we’d
fly up there to Friday Harbor and land and jump in the Volkswagen and run on the thing.
And then we could go all over the island.
SL:
[unintelligible]
SM:
And we’d put it over there. We had it over in Port Angeles, and we’d go up to Hurricane
Ridge. And so it was great. Why have a cabin? I could go to one airport to another.
SL:
Right. That’s the way to do it.
SM:
So it worked very well for us.
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SL:
Oh, that’s fun.
SM:
And I had that. I might mention that I gave up flying when I was 85 years old.
SL:
That’s a long time. That’s pretty good.
SM:
And I gave up driving when I was 95.
SL:
That’s impressive.
SM:
So, well, it was one of these things. If they’d had an accident, it would be all my fault
because he was too damn old.
SL:
[laughs] Unfortunately, you’re probably right. Well, a little more maybe about your
career at Boeing. What were you flying there? Were you product delivery, test
[unintelligible]?
SM:
Well, we flew all of airplanes out of the factory. All brand-new airplanes came under
production and flight test on the thing, and Clayton Scott—well, we had—he worked for
Fornasero, and then Tex took over and Tex was the pilot. And then when Tex left, why,
Dix Loesch became chief pilot on the thing. And when Scottie retired—Scottie retired in
about 1966, and fortunately, I was able to get his job. So I had his job as chief production
of flight test starting in 1966 until, well, 1981, when I had to retire.
SL:
So production of flight test, are you flying pretty much every airplane that gets delivered
then or—
SM:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was our job, was to fly all the airplanes that came out of the
factory, new airplanes. We made—that was our responsibility. And what we did is we
would run a B-1 flight, we called it, a Boeing flight, and if the airplane was pretty good
or something, we could—we flew for the FAA. They gave us what they call DARs,
designated authorization, to accept for the Air Force—for the FAA. Excuse me. And then
we’d have a customer demonstration flight, and we were able to get the airplanes in such
good shape that Northwest Airlines were accepting airplanes without any flight at all.
They would just—so—but we were responsible because we had people—we had Boeing
looking at us, we had the FAA looking at us, and we had the customer [unintelligible]. So
we had to do a good job.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It had to be right. Yeah. So production test flight, does that only
civilian deliveries or are you delivering military as well or—
SM:
Oh, I might—oh, some of the deliveries were great. Like, on Air France in the beginning,
why, they wanted us to deliver the airplane to Paris. And so I’d get a chance to fly the
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airplane from Seattle to Paris on the thing. And I might mention my wife loves being a
stewardess. I took my favorite stewardess on a lot of flights.
SL:
[laughs] I was going to ask.
SM:
So my favorite stewardess. And then some of the customers were great. Just like South
Africa, like they’d take us down to Johannesburg, and we went through the Kruger
National Park there on the thing and then down to Cape Town, where the Table
Mountain—and you could look and see the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans on the thing.
SL:
Oh, yeah.
SM:
And then we’d get a chance to ferry—fly, oh, a 747 to China—Beijing in those days—
and went up to the Great Wall and the whole works. We went to India. And I might say
I’ve been around the world a couple of times. And we went to Taj Mahal and the whole
works.
SL:
Wow. That’s quite—
SM:
So it’s been wonderful.
SL:
It sounds like it.
SM:
I can’t complain about a thing. It’s been extremely fortunate, and all I can say is that
someone up above was looking down.
SL:
That’s a good way to feel about it, that’s for sure. Did you do military deliveries, like the
B-52s or 47s, or was that a test flight or did much work with that?
SM:
No. Military didn’t—
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
I don’t recall.
SL:
So most of—
SM:
Offhand, I can’t.
SL:
Yeah. Experience there was maybe more with the B-52s and the—
SM:
Yeah. The military always wanted to—always wanted acceptance flights. So we would
fly the airplanes, satisfy ourselves, and then we would get over in a copilot seat and they
would fly the airplane [unintelligible] flight. And then when they were happy with it,
why, it’d be gone.
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SL:
Oh, okay. I didn’t understand how that worked.
SM:
Yeah.
01:17:07
[Connections to The Museum of Flight]
SL:
That helps. That helps. Well, there’s—I do have a couple of other just kind of minor
questions. You know, I know you’re familiar with The Museum of Flight.
SM:
Excuse me, what was that?
SL:
You’re familiar with the Museum over there.
SM:
Yeah, a little.
SL:
Did you—well, did you fly, like, our 727? We have the number one 727 over there.
SM:
Yeah. I think I have, yeah. Yeah. Some of those airplanes that are in there I have flown.
SL:
Probably have flown, yeah.
SM:
Right.
SL:
Yeah, yeah.
SM:
On the thing. Because I remember when the Museum first started on the thing and Jack
left for United Airlines, did a lot to get it started, he found the old—the trimotor—
SL:
Yes, the Model 80.
SM:
Yeah, on the thing.
SL:
And the 247.
SM:
And then—oh, I’m trying to think of his name—Renton Coil and Spring.
SL:
Hmm. Don’t know.
SM:
He had [unintelligible] got the 247. They bought that down there in Fresno, I believe.
SL:
Yeah. It was somewhere in California.
SM:
And they went down there and flew the airplane back. And I can’t think—God, I can’t
think of his name on the thing. And he was on the Board for a long time, and then they
moved it. And I asked him. I said, “Aren’t you upset about not being on the Board any
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longer?” And he says, “Oh, no.” He says, “They’re moving uptown where the money is.”
[laughter] He says, “I’m glad to be out of it.”
SL:
It’s a good time to be done with it, yeah.
SM:
Yeah. And I can remember when they took the Red Barn when it was on that site down
there on the Duwamish, and they floated it up there by the Development Center. They
had a hangar there by Isaacson Steel. And it was parked there on wheels on the thing.
And that’s when they moved it up Marginal Way to its present site.
SL:
Yep.
SM:
So I kind of watched the thing. And, of course, I know Bob Mucklestone and people that
are interested.
SL:
Right. Exactly.
SM:
On the thing. Like I say, I gave my logbooks to The Museum of Flight. And then I got the
Legion of French—Legion of Merit Award, and we had it there in The Museum of Flight.
And the ambassador came up and gave me a kiss on each cheek. [laughter] And you
people had that medal there at the Museum.
SL:
Yes. I knew we had it.
01:19:50
[Thoughts on different aircraft and a close call on the runway]
SL:
Of all the airplanes you have flown—there’s been hundreds of different types—any one
that stands out as being a real good one, a real favorite, or some that are really bad?
SM:
No. It’s one of the things. I look at it this way. If I want to take a long flight, I like that
old 707-300.
SL:
Oh, yeah?
SM:
It had a good range. I liked that airplane. And if I wanted a kiddie car, why, the 737 was
ideal. [laughter] And I can remember bringing a 37 back from Europe, you know. And
you’d sit there and count the engines. Has it got four or two? [laughter] As long as
everything was working well.
SL:
Yeah. Well, that makes some sense.
SM:
No problems.
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SL:
Let’s see. Kind of—we’re kind of drawing to a conclusion here, I kind of think. So as
someone with so much life experience, is there anything that for future historians that are
going to look at this and maybe write history or learn about history, anything that you’d
like to say to the future historians or to the young people who will be seeing this?
SM:
Well, there’s one thing, one comment that happened, and the fellow that it happened with
me is dead. And he said, “I don’t talk about it because nobody will believe it.” But the
copilot and I went out to the hardstand for our airplane, and we were walking back, and
we’re going by a runway that was never used. Or rarely used. We’ll put it that way. And
the weather was bad. So consequently, we weren’t flying. And all of a sudden, we looked
up and this airplane was landing right on top of us. And he undershot the runway. And
we couldn’t run or anything. We just fell to the ground on the thing. And the airplane
undershot and it went over us. And the tailwheel missed our heads like this, and the main
gear missed our feet on the thing.
And he called the tower and said, “I just killed a couple of people out on a runway.” And
they sent the ambulance out there to pick us up, and we said, “We’re the ones you’re
looking for.” And my copilot smokes. He put a cigarette in his mouth, and he—we are
standing there just putting a second one in. [laughter] So you can see we were pretty well
shook up.
SL:
Oh, wow.
SM:
But nobody will believe this story, but it actually happened. And we know the—and
because the mud tracks were right where—
SL:
Oh, yeah.
SM:
—between where they lay. So you figure out the distance between the main gear and the
tailwheel.
SL:
Oh, yeah. Oh, man.
SM:
And it went over us.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
But you can tell that one or you can discard it.
SL:
Oh, it’ll be there. [laughs] That’s fascinating.
SM:
And that’s why I said, of all these experiences that happened, why, somebody was
looking over, taking care.
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SL:
Yeah, yeah. How about when you were flying your Bonanza around? Did you have any
close calls with that or was it just [unintelligible]—
SM:
No. The Bonanza was—no.
SL:
A good airplane to fly.
SM:
No, that was just a lot of fun.
SL:
Yeah. Well, that’s good.
SM:
We’d go down to San Francisco or over to Salt Lake, where my wife lived with the
airplane. But I didn’t go any long distances because I could do it so much faster.
SL:
Yeah. Why would you do that in a Bonanza? That’s—
SM:
Right.
SL:
Yeah. That’s more fun.
SM:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
No. It was just for local flying.
SL:
Well, any last other things that you want to say?
SM:
No. I think we’ve covered the ground, unless you can think of something.
SL:
Well, that’s what I was going to say. If there’s other folks here, that anybody else has a
question.
01:24:23
[Ferrying a B-17 from Hawaii to California]
SCOTT SANFORD MCMURRAY: Tell him the story about ferrying the B-17 from Hawaii to
San Francisco and—
SM:
Oh. Oh, yeah. That was a—yeah. That was a—it was a mistake on my part. When we got
transferred back from Hickman Field back to Hamilton, I didn’t want a ride. I wanted to
fly the airplane. So I asked about ferrying the airplane, and they said, “Yeah, we got this
B-17 they want to bring back.” So I said, “Well, that sounds interesting.” So it was in
pretty bad shape on the thing, and we flew a flight. They figured that the way it was
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burning oil, we’d probably run out of oil or come close to it before we landed on the
thing. But I flew it for four hours, and the oil consumption wasn’t all that bad.
So we took off. And it was a B-17E, which I had trained in but I hadn’t flown since on
the thing. And here it is about 1:00 in the morning. We’ve got two tanks where the ball
turret used to be because it didn’t have the range on the thing, and it had two bomb bay
tanks for the fuel, about 450 each bomb bay, as I recall, on the thing. And about 1:00 in
the morning, why, the engineer comes up, and he says, “Captain,” he says, “I can’t
transfer any fuel. It’s not transferring any fuel onto the right-hand tank.” And I said, “My
God, we’re going to have to need that fuel to make land or something.” So he came back
in a little while, and he’s says, “It’s running and running.” And he says, “It’s getting hot.
It can catch on fire.” And I thought, “Boy, the transfer pump was right there between the
two fuel tanks in the bomb bay.” So I said, “Well, that’s not a bad idea.” And so he says,
“Well, it’s not been shut off, and I can’t shut it off. [unintelligible] circuit breaker.”
So we cut all the wires. That’s the only way you can do it is up and cut the wires. So we
turned off all the electrical on the thing and flew with a flashlight on the instruments. The
instruments, fortunately, were pneumatic and not electric. So we flew with a flashlight at
night at 1:00 in the morning over halfway between Hawaii and Hamilton. And so we cut
all the wires, and now we’re sitting here with 450 gallons of fuel that we can’t use. And
fortunately, I remembered that we—and I hadn’t checked it—that we always kept the
transfer—manual transfer pump in the camera well, which was in the radio room. I told
him to go down and look in the radio room and see if a transfer pump’s there, and lo and
behold, there was a transfer pump there.
So then we take it and hook the transfer pump up in the bomb bay on the thing, and they
have to disconnect the thing. Well, all of a sudden, we’ve got fuel. You can feel the fuel
moving around in the thing.
SL:
Holy smokes.
SM:
So here again, we cut off all the electrical on the thing, flew with a flashlight, and opened
up all the windows and everything to blow all the air out. And so we got it. Well, we
figured clean up and put the electrical back in. And then we had to take tanks, cranking.
And then we had everybody go back, and I think we made everybody go about 50 turns
of the crank and then somebody else would take their place.
So anyway, we ended up back there at Hamilton Field on the thing, and we go to stop.
And lo and behold, there’s no brakes because we had cut the hydraulic pump off. On the
B-17, they didn’t have engineering hydraulic pumps. They had electric, and we had
sheared—cut off the things.
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SL:
That was the wire.
SM:
But fortunately, there’s a great big pump on the copilot’s side. And I remember I says,
“Start pumping.” And we pumped the airplane up, and I says, “That’s enough.”
SL:
[laughs] Oh, my God.
SM:
So that was the end of that experience.
SL:
Oh, man. That was a long flight.
SM:
It was.
SL:
Well, okay. Well, with that, I’d like to say thank you very, very much for allowing us this
time. Thank you for serving our country.
SM:
Well, I hope we covered the ground.
SL:
I think we did. I think we did. Kelci?
01:29:16
[Memories of the Red Barn]
[production talk]
KELCI HOPP:
You mentioned briefly that you had witnessed the Red Barn traveling
from its location to where it is now. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about
that.
SM:
Excuse me, I can’t—
SL:
Talk a little bit about the Red Barn moving.
SM:
I don’t know too much about the Red Barn. All I remember is, when they first started
ferrying airplanes out of Seattle, this friend of mine was an engineer, took me to the Red
Barn, and that was where they built the B-47. The first B-47 was built in the Red Barn
over there.
SL:
I didn’t know that.
SM:
And then they took it over to Boeing Field. And I remember I was flying for United
and—at the time, and they said, well, they flew the B-47 this afternoon in a big cloud of
black smoke off of Boeing Field. And they went over to Moses Lake on that. And as far
as the Red Barn, I can remember driving by it and seeing it there. And, of course, they
had a nice brick building, which was their offices and engineering and whatnot, and then
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the Red Barn was one of the first ones of building the float airplanes and whatnot that
Boeing built.
SL:
You never worked in the Red Barn or anything? It was pretty much out of—it wasn’t
being used when you were there, really?
SM:
That’s correct. It was. Yeah, by then—well, because the Red Barn was there, and then
when the war started, of course, they built Plant Two.
SL:
Plant Two. Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay.
01:31:08
[Additional stories from wartime service, part one]
SSM: Tell them the story about flying over the Japanese-inhabited island when you were doing
Ferry Command in the Pacific.
SM:
What was that?
SL:
Yeah, about flying over the Japanese-inhabited island when you were ferrying airplanes?
SM:
Oh. [laughs] Yeah, when we were—oh, that was one there. Let’s see. I think it was called
Wotje. And we used to fly, when we were going from Johnston Island to Kwajalein there,
We hit that Marshall Island chain, and there was an island there called Wotje on the
thing. And I guess there were Japanese on it that we just bypassed it and let them starve
themselves to death on the thing. And I remember one time I was going over in the
evening, and I wanted to see I could see any signs, you know, fire or anything over there.
And so I was looking down there and flying over it. And the navigator jumped up and
down and told me I had no right flying over the island because I was jeopardizing his life,
and he was married and I wasn’t. [laughter] He didn’t get a lot of sympathy from me. I
says, “I’ve been shot at.”
SL:
I can’t imagine any sympathy. Yes. Oh, man.
SM:
You know, they did that—the same thing over there in the Marianas. We bypassed an
island—there was Guam. I can’t think of the name of the other island. Tinian and Saipan.
SL:
Yeah. We island-hopped.
SM:
We island-hopped and just let them—
SL:
Didn’t have to—didn’t have to—
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SM:
And they found—up in Guam there, they found people nine months later, you know,
finally surrendering or something that lived up in the islands.
SL:
Wow. That had to have been an interesting time to live. Dangerous time to live.
SM:
It was.
SL:
Yeah, yeah. Wow.
01:33:11
[More on the Red Barn and stories from flying career]
PEDER NELSON: So I guess one question is about when the Red Barn became part of The
Museum of Flight, you had mentioned where it—when it was barged down the river—
SM:
Right.
PN:
—it was rolled up into a location and then transferred.
SM:
Right.
PN:
What was the location and do you remember the transferring? Did you watch it?
SM:
No, no. I didn’t watch it personally. I was jogging around that building there, the
Development Center, and we saw it there. And I don’t think it was there on that wheels
there maybe a week at the most? Less than that. And they had to—I think they had to
take some wires down or whatnot to go down Marginal Way. And so I think they had
prepared for it. They were just on wheels and whatnot, but I think it was done—once it
was underway, I don’t think they had any trouble moving it. It probably got there in a
couple hours at the most. You know, this is like that B-52 they brought down from
Everett.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That was fun to watch.
SM:
Yeah, and they brought it back, you know, and got it back. And I remember Scott took
me down there, and we saw them assembling it and whatnot.
SL:
Yup, yup. Would you have flown that B-52?
SM:
I didn’t fly it.
SL:
No?
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SM:
I think that’s a short tail. You know, that’s another thing. The B-52s we built here were
what we call long tails. I think they were through the Ds, and then the—Wichita went
onto the—what we call the short tail.
SL:
Right. That is a Wichita aircraft tail.
SM:
Yeah. And they were all Wichita airplanes, Gs and Hs or whatever they were.
SL:
Right, right. Okay.
SSM: Tell them about transferring—training the pilots from the pistons to jets back in the early
‘60s prior to simulators.
SL:
Yeah. Training the—training pilots for transitioning from piston to jet before simulation?
Before simulators?
SM:
Yeah. Well, what happened, it was kind of—it was tough because everything’s done on
seniority, and we got a lot of older pilots initially to train. And they had—and I can
appreciate themselves—is vision problems. Initially, we had this red light or something
instead of white light on the thing. So they had trouble necessarily transitioning with the
lighting on the instrument panels.
Well, one thing—and the other thing was that you lose your depth perception. Now,
depth perception, they told me, is done by peripheral vision. In other words, as your
peripheral vision comes in, your depth perception is what you lose, from what my eye
doctors told me on the thing. So when I get eye checks now, they keep checking my
peripheral vision. When we get with the older pilots, as it starts to come in, your depth, so
when they come in to land, they always used to land higher, whereas when you’re
younger, you’d come down a level and touch down because you knew exactly how far off
the ground you were. As you get older, you feel for the ground.
SL:
Well, interesting.
SM:
And so those are some of the problems that we had. And then they were getting—we
were getting more into ILS approaches, where they had been making range approaches
and things of that order. So they probably weren’t as sharp on ILS approaches as some of
the others. So these were some of the problems as we went down and got more and more
airplanes, why, you start training younger pilots, why, they made it a little bit easier.
SL:
Is there a difference in the actual landing? Because it seems like, a propeller airplane, you
get more of a flare, and in the jet airplane, it seems like they come in pretty level.
SM:
Well, you know, there is a cushion, an air cushion—
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SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. [unintelligible].
SM:
—with the flaps. And for about the last 50 feet with flaps down, you can trap some air on
the thing. You know, and that was interesting. There was a—Pan Am had a fuel problem.
They lost an engine and the fuel. I can’t remember. And the pilot was smart, and he got
down and flew at about 100 feet, and he was able to get the thing into the Hawaiian
Islands instead of Oahu. And he was flying what you call on ground effects.
SL:
Ground effect.
SM:
And there is a definite ground effect, yes.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It seemed like some pilots had some transition issues with that,
from what I’ve heard from a couple of others.
SM:
Well, it’s—we got several kinds of flying. You take the DC-3 and the 4, they were
[unintelligible] landing flaps. All they did was [unintelligible] really change the stall
speed on the thing. All they did was they gave you a steeper approach, where you could
make a steeper approach on the thing. And when you get into—when we get into the 727
example, then that flap was a split flap and it produced lift. So the airplanes today that we
built, their flaps are producing lift.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah. They’re not stopping lift or anything.
SM:
Right.
SL:
They’re actually helping.
SM:
No.
SL:
Yeah. That make sense.
SM:
Other than they can give you—because you can have a lower—they are producing more
lift, why, they give you an appropriate—a lower approach speed.
SL:
Right, right. It makes sense..
SSM: Tell the story of how Clayton Scott came to hire you.
SL:
How did Clayton Scott come to hire you?
SM:
What was that?
SL:
How did Clayton Scott come to hire you?
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SM:
Oh, I don’t know. Well, I guess we’re both Scotsman. And Scottie had flown for United
Airlines at one time. Not many people realize that, but he had flown for United for a
couple months as—on the C-47 as a copilot on the thing. So he realized that we had quite
a bit to offer with the airline experience.
SSM: Tell them about the phone call you got when your mother was here and your grand—your
mother was here, and you got a phone call.
SM:
Oh, that? Well, that was a good flight. What happened was that one evening, my mother
was here and it was about dinnertime. And Scottie called me and says, “I need a copilot
to fly in the Stratocruiser.” He says, “Can you make it?” And I said, “I can make it in 10
minutes.” [laughter]
So we went down there, and we took off in a Stratocruiser and did all the work up there at
altitude and came down. And he tapped the wheel, and he says, “You can go ahead and
fly the airplane.” Well, I had been flying for—in and out of Boeing Field, you know, for
a year and a half, so it was just a piece of duck. I just flew the airline pattern on the thing,
you know, and I figured he’ll take the control of the thing all the way around. And so we
came down and got in final gear and flaps down and all that in the landing, and I
remember I says, “Do you hold 130?” And he says, “Yeah, that’s a good speed.” So we
came in and landed, and I caught a roller. I mean, the airplane just started rolling on the
ground. I didn’t even feel a touchdown.
SL:
Nice.
SM:
And I remember some guy in the back, he says, “Why can’t they all be like this?”
[laughter] And I was about 10 feet high. I just lucked out on a roller. And after that, why,
you know, he and I got along very well.
SL:
Very nice, yeah. [laughs]
SM:
So I just lucked out.
SL:
Oh, that’s good.
SSM: Do you want to tell them about the Tex Johnston flight? [laughs]
PN:
He’s egging on the Tex Johnston story.
SM:
What about?
PN:
The Tex Johnston flight. Scott’s saying that—asking you if you will tell it.
SM:
I don’t know anything about it. [laughter]
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Understood.
01:41:57
[Additional stories from wartime service, part two]
PN:
I do have a question. We’re updating our World War II exhibit down at the Museum, and
I was wondering if you could just talk about where you were the day you found out that
the war was over.
SL:
Good question.
SM:
That the war was over? Which—VED or—
PN:
Both.
SM:
Well—
SL:
Yeah, yeah. Both would be good.
SM:
VED was—put it this way. I knew that was in about May or whatever it was on it, retired.
And they started building airfields over in Okinawa because they were going to launch
the invasion of Japan on Flying—B-17s. They were going to bring them over there and
saturate. I might mention, the B-29s there, they—with LeMay there, they were bombing
at altitude initially on the thing. And I remember one—they decided that the Japanese
didn’t have enough antiaircraft or any defense, that they lowered the bombing altitude
down to about 8,000 to 10,000 feet on the thing. And, of course, the crews say, “Oh,
they’ll murder us,” which they didn’t.
And two things. I think they ran out of bombs one time, and they took Tokyo and they
made a shell out of it. I mean, they literally ran out of targets in Japan before the war
really ended. And, of course, when they dropped the atomic bomb, why, they wanted to
initially, you know, [surrender?]. And as I understand it, Hirohito wanted to retire,
wanted to [surrender?] and Tojo wanted to continue fighting or something. And then
when they hit Nagasaki on a couple—three days later, whatever it was, why, that’s when
they did away with Tojo and the war ended.
SL:
Right.
SM:
So we knew the war ended probably, oh, three weeks before they actually had the
surrender itself. But as far as fighting was concerned, I don’t think there was much—too
much fighting. There probably was some, but there was not near the fighting that they
had been previous.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Where were you and what were you doing at that time? Do you remember?
SM:
I was flying airplanes back and forth to the Pacific. And I don’t know where there—I
guess I was back home. And then they wanted to hurry up and fly out to Okinawa
because we—once we got to Okinawa, I think I had to wait, oh, about a week. I think I
had one trip. I went down to Manila and picked up a load of lumber or some damn thing
and flew it back up to Oki from Manila. Some fighter outfit or something was going to
move up there, and we got up their portable housing for them. And it was ridiculous.
You know, it was kind of interesting. During the war, you know, towards the end there,
all these colonels and high-ranking officers were all coming out to the Pacific. I got a
little forward service I got to get, you know.
SL:
That’s right. That’s right.
SM:
So they all went out—wanted to go out there and get all these forward service because
they knew the war was ending.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
[cellphone rings]
SM:
I remember I gave a copilot landing, and he was having kind of a hard time. And some
colonel was upset with the fact that I had given the copilot a landing.
[production talk]
SSM: To answer your question, during this signing [unintelligible], they had all the airplanes
put in the sky.
PN:
Yeah.
SL:
Right.
PN:
He did talk about the signing, yeah. I was just wondering, like—
SSM: He flew over when they were signing.
PN:
Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. We definitely got that. I was just wondering about, like, if
he got an announcement that it was over, like, the reaction.
SL:
Yeah. That’s a good question. Do you remember getting, like, an announcement or
something from headquarters saying the war is over?
SM:
No.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Anything like that?
SM:
No. We knew it pretty well because the thing is they held us in abeyance at Okinawa until
they announced that they were going to sign the peace treaty between Eisenhower—or
rather, MacArthur on the battleship the Missouri in Tokyo Bay at 11:00 on such and such
a day.
SL:
Right.
SM:
So that’s when we really knew that it was over. But as far as fighting and all that, that
was all.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
But when we were going to Okinawa initially, they were still shelling, you know, the
island, and we were going in and bringing them out. And I remember one night we were
coming back from Okinawa there, and I went back there in the litters. I think we had like
44 litters or something. And this kid motioned down to me or something. And it was
some young kid, and he had a leg off. And he says, “I’m lucky.” He says, “I’m going
home. Me and my buddy.” And his buddy, Christ, he was in horrible condition, it seemed
like.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
And I said, “Well, what were you?” He says, “Oh,” he says, “I was in the Marines.” And,
I says—and he says, “Me and my buddy, we’re the only two left.” And I said, “How
many?” And he says, “200.”
SL:
Wow.
SM:
And up there at Iwo Jima, when they fought on the thing, the—it was a bad—it was a
Marine operation pretty well, but they had the Army, which was in the middle, so they
had two divisions up here and the Army back. And the Marines, they don’t have anything
in the way of armor other than mortar fire or something, howitzers. And the Army had
artillery. And so they told them to move up on the thing, and the Army general says, “I’m
just going to sit there and shell them all night, and then we’ll move up.” And what
happened, the Marines moved up and the Japanese got behind the Marines in front of
the—
SL:
Wow.
SM:
And so the Marines were getting hit in front and back, and so that’s when they got pretty
well banged. And they court-martialed the general or some damn thing.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Wow.
SM:
But, you know, Pearl Harbor was set up. Pearl Harbor was set up. Maybe not as bad. But
we had to get in the war with Japan—or the [unintelligible], as they called it in most
days. Because if you stop to think, if Hitler had ever taken England, what a disaster
would that would have been for us. We had no anchor, no place to go at all, and Churchill
and Roosevelt had to figure some way of getting us into the war. And the fact is that
when they didn’t—they lost track of the Japanese fleet, so to speak. That’s what we
understand. They lost them, and I don’t know—
SL:
Right. That’s what we’ve been—
SM:
—on the thing. Maybe they didn’t think it was going to be quite as bad. But they said
they had—that Saturday before—they struck on a Sunday on the thing—that they were
all on leave partying and everything else like nothing was going to happen. And, of
course, they court-martialed—I can’t remember. There were two of them, the two
generals, they got—
SL:
Right. I don’t remember their names, but that’s right. They did.
SM:
They [unintelligible] court-martial on the thing and—but somebody had to pay the price.
But if you stop to think about it—and it’s like when my dad first got to the Philippines,
the people who lived out there says, “Has the war started yet? Are they going to do—” Or
something like that. And my dad’s letters wrote there, and he says, “It finally started.”
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
You know, they knew that the—they were going to get hit.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, they were there preparing for it. They knew something
was going to happen.
SM:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
SM:
Everybody knows it’s just a matter of time before it’s going to happen.
01:51:46
[More on his father’s career and service]
SL:
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. It’s sad to lose your dad in something like that.
SM:
Well, he—that’s the way life goes.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
That’s right. That’s right.
SM:
He was only 56 when he got—did away. But he had gone out—see, my dad, in 1914, he
was the young one. He graduated from law school or something. He and his brother
were—had some kind of a law practice down in Tennessee. And they just weren’t doing
very great. And they had this thing where they had the Philippine Constabulary. So he
signed up for the Philippine Constabulary, and so he was a—as I understand it, he
worked for the Philippine Army at the Constabulary as a U.S. officer or something. He’s
a—as a second lieutenant. So he did a two-year stint with it in 1914. The war went on,
and it ended at 1918. My dad had an offer as a—I guess he was a second lieutenant or
first lieutenant—I can’t remember what—to go out to the Philippines in the military.
That’s on the thing.
And so he had met my mother, and he proposed to her and the whole works
[unintelligible]. In 1919, they went on a military transport, and they got married, and they
went on their honeymoon, and they were over there in Manila, living in style. And my
mother did not like military life. There was General So-and-So’s wife was running a tea,
and you had to go and drinking tea and all these niceties. And that wasn’t my mother’s
thing.
SL:
She didn’t want to do that.
SM:
So she didn’t want it. So they got out. My dad got an offer from—whatever—Frazier and
Bright—Frazier Company. They were import/export people. And so he went to Shanghai.
And one of the big customers was Dodge Automobile, among others. And then I guess it
kind of got enlarged there, and they opened up an office in Beijing. Peking, in these days.
And so he volunteered, and he went up there. And so he kind of got to run the office. He
was so responsible with the people in Shanghai. But anyway, he had a chance.
So they lived up there in China—or in Beijing. And they were kind of closing that office,
and he was going to go back to Shanghai. And I interfered. I was on the way. [laughs]
My mother was expecting me in June or something, and this all happened about April or
May. And so they just—and the other thing was that, once you get out of the military,
you are allowed two years to go back on an Army transport. And so he would have lost
this going back on an Army transport. So that’s when they decided to come back to the
States on an Army transport, free.
SL:
[laughs] Yeah. That was a smart decision, I’d say.
SM:
Well, it wasn’t much of a decision. But this is all what they’re telling me.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Yeah. Well, that’s good. A lot of folks don’t know the stories around their own birth,
that’s for sure. Okay. Well, let’s—
SM:
No. That’s fine.
01:56:00
[Bailing out of a Curtiss C-46]
SSM: Tell him the story of how you got your Caterpillar pin.
SM:
Oh, the Caterpillar. Oh. Yeah, this is the one. I got a—I bought a 1950 Cadillac—not a
Cadillac. The Buick. I could get it at the factory and save $500 on it. It was a good, good
deal. I could buy the car for about $1,600, a brand-new car, delivered in Flint. So I got
the Air Force—and they were going back to Dayton on the thing in a C-46. So that was
great. I could go back and just take the train up to Flint and get my car.
So we took off. And this was just about the time of the Korean War was going on on the
thing. And we went to Denver and refueled. And the copilot got over in the pilot’s seat,
and I think I did most of the flying or something on the thing. And it was just getting
around about, oh, 7:00 in the morning or something, and the pilot came back—he had
been sleeping—and took over the pilot’s seat. And the copilot got over in the copilot seat,
and I went back to sleep. And I was asleep about, oh, an hour and so, and somebody—the
sergeant [unintelligible]. “You better wake up,” he says. “We just lost the right engine.”
He says, “You better put your parachute on in case we lose the other engine.”
So they were heading north on the thing, and they said—well, they got up north there,
and they came up to this airport, nice, great big, long airport and whatnot, and I figured
they’re going to land. So they’re starting to fly down, and he says, “Oh no.” He says,
“This isn’t Dayton. It must be further east.” So they pass up this runway on the thing, and
the left engine quit. All I hear is [makes sound effect]. [laughter] No engines, 1,000 feet,
1,000 feet.
SL:
You’re low.
SM:
And I started back to the back end of the thing on the airplane, and the—one of the
enlisted men had saw me and he had opened the door to bail out, and I went, [makes
sound effect], right out through the door. I remember looking up and seeing the tail go
by. [makes sound effect]
SL:
Oh, geez.
SM:
And a couple of swings, and I landed in a cornfield.
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Oh, man. Yeah, 1,000 feet is low.
SM:
So, anyway, I—so some people there took me in. They took me in the car and wound up
the parachute and whatnot and wound it all up, and they took me to this airport. And I
can’t think of the name of it now. Decatur. Decatur, Illinois, on the thing. And so I called
collect to Operations at Dayton and tell them that we—I think we’ve got a C-46 down
somewhere east of this airport. And he comes [unintelligible] and he says, “No. Is he
hurt?” And they says, “No.” He says, “Well,” he says, “It just landed about a half hour
ago on the thing.” And he says, “Are you okay?” And I said, “Fine.” He says, “Well,
we’ll come over and pick you up on some airplane.” So about an hour or so, a couple of
AT-6s came in and they snuck us in the back of an AT-6 and flew us back.
And when we got back where the Operations [unintelligible], and the C-46 was running
with both engines running. So I didn’t find out about this for about another month. And
what had happened is the—when the right engine quit, we were burning our auxiliary
tank. And when the engine ran out of fuel, he feathered the engine rather than switch
tanks.
SL:
Oh, really?
SM:
Now, they descended, and they’re going down with the other engine shut down. And they
got down to about 200 feet, the co-pilot in the right tank realized what was going on and
switched tanks. So that’s how they came back and landed with both engines.
SL:
Oh, my God. [laughs]
SM:
I did not find out about that. This pilot, afterwards he says, “You’re not going to hold that
against me, are you?” And I says, “No.” But they—he was—they put him out of the
service.
SL:
I was going to say, he’s probably not flying, yeah.
SM:
Yeah.
SL:
Wow.
SM:
He was all through flying.
SL:
[laughs] That was—you’re lucky to have not broken something or something. At 1,000
feet, that’s not a lot of room to get that parachute deployed. That’s pretty good. Wow.
SM:
[unintelligible] I did get the one parachute. But I remember these guys not pulling the
parachute cord, you know, and the chute not opening. Boy, I remember as I pulled that
thing, well, I was looking at it, like—
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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02:01:53
[Closing thoughts]
SL:
It’s here. [laughs] Oh, that’s wonderful. That’s great. I appreciate you adding in. Okay.
Well, I’d say let’s go ahead and wrap it up then. And I want to say, again, thank you very,
very much for this time.
SM:
I hope the computer gave you enough data.
SL:
Oh, yeah. It certainly did. I think that’s wonderful. And also, thank you for the service
that you did in the Second World War and thereafter.
SM:
Well—
SL:
It is appreciated.
SM:
I was lucky I was a survivor.
SL:
Yeah. That is good. I’m glad you did.
SM:
Oh, I had a—I’ve got no complaints on my flying. And I have wonderful family. I’ve
got—I had three children. My oldest son passed away, but my younger one takes good
care of me, and my daughter is doing real well.
SL:
That’s excellent. That’s all you can ask, yeah.
SM:
I’ve got a granddaughter with three children.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Do they live around here, too?
SM:
Yeah. They live in Woodinville.
SL:
Yeah. That’s nice. That way you get a chance to see them. Yeah. Yeah.
02:03:04
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2020 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
McMurray, Henry S., 1921-2021
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Henry Sanford “Sandy” McMurray was a retired Boeing Production Test Pilot with a career spanning 32 years, from 1949 until 1981.</p>
<p>McMurray was born on July 14, 1921 in San Leandro, California to Welborn and Harriett McMurray. He lived there with his parents and younger sister, Elizabeth, until joining the U.S. Army Air Forces in 1941.</p>
<p>McMurray went to McKinley Grade School and San Leandro High School, transferring to Hayward High School from which he graduated in 1939. While in high school he filled out a questionnaire about possible careers and indicated that he was going to be a pilot. Working toward that goal, mechanically-minded McMurray attended San Jose State College taking engineering classes. The Civilian Pilot Training Program had just started there and McMurray was one of the first 50 candidates selected. Earning his Private Pilot Certificate by the summer of 1941, he took his physical and was accepted into the U.S. Army Air Corps on November 7, 1941. Attending training at “Kelly-on-the-Hill,” he selected multi-engine training, knowing that would further a civilian career as a pilot.</p>
<p>On July 3, 1942 he was assigned to the 305th Bombardment Group, subsequently known as the “Can Do” group, at Muroc Field. Completing his B-17 training there, McMurray found himself and his crew in Chelveston, England by November. McMurray flew his first mission on December 12 to Rouen, France in the B-17 “Unmentionable Ten” and his 25th mission on July 26, 1943 striking Hanover, Germany. Returning to the United States, he was transferred to the Air Transport Command, where he earned his Instrument Rating while delivering bombers, fighters, and transports. Assigned to the 7th Ferry Command, he was based in Wilmington, Delaware on D-Day when he had the opportunity to fly in the Pacific Theater. McMurray’s father had disappeared in 1942 with the fall of the Philippines and he was eager to see what information he could find. He learned that his father had passed away at Cabanatuan on June 14, 1942 of cerebral malaria. McMurray spent the last year and a half of the war bringing wounded troops out of battle and flying in replacements.</p>
<p>Discharged from the U.S. Army Air Forces on January 3, 1946 at McClellan Field, California, McMurray quickly found work as a flight engineer for Orvis Nelson Air Transport (later Transocean Airlines). After three months with ONAT, he was hired by United Airlines, flying as copilot primarily on West Coast routes. On one of these flights, he met his wife, Marjorie, a United Airlines stewardess. They were married in San Francisco on December 6, 1947. About a year later, United furloughed 88 pilots, McMurray included.</p>
<p>McMurray was then hired on at the Boeing Company. When United Airlines asked him back in October 1949, he opted to stay with Boeing. For his first couple of years at Boeing, McMurray wrote pilot handbooks. He subsequently moved to a test pilot position. As a test pilot, he started out copiloting Stratocruisers, C-97s, B-50s, B-29s, and other variants of these airframes. He transitioned to jet-engined aircraft with the B-47 and also flew the KC-135 and B-52 as part of the team developing jet-engined refueling capabilities for the U.S. Moving to the civilian side of Boeing, he flew the 707, 727, 737, and 747 extensively in Production Test Flight. In 1966, McMurray’s manager, Clayton Scott, retired and McMurray was promoted into his position as head of Production Test Flight. He held this position until his retirement in 1981.</p>
<p>McMurray died in 2021 at 99 years of age.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OH_McMurray_Sandy
OH_McMurray_Sandy_transcription
Title
A name given to the resource
Henry “Sandy” McMurray oral history interview
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Henry "Sandy" McMurray and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, February 27, 2020.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Pilot Henry Sanford “Sandy” McMurray is interviewed about his military and commercial flying careers. He discusses his service with the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II, including his flight training with the Civilian Pilot Training Program, his service with the 305th Bombardment Group in the European Theater, and his service with the Air Transport Command in the Pacific Theater. He then shares highlights from his time as a commercial pilot for ONAT (Orvis Nelson Air Transport) and United Airlines and as a test pilot for Boeing, where he rose to the position of head of Production Test Flight before his retirement in 1981.</p>
<p>McMurray’s son, Scott Sanford McMurray, also participates in the interview.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
<p>Introduction and personal background -- Flight training, part one -- Service in the European Theater, part one -- Flight training, part two -- Service in the European Theater, part two -- Service with the Air Transport Command, part one -- Story about an ill-fated takeoff in a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress -- Service with the Air Transport Command, part two -- Service in the Pacific Theater -- Father’s military service and death -- Marriage and career with United Airlines -- Career with Boeing -- Connections to The Museum of Flight -- Thoughts on different aircraft and a close call on the runway -- Ferrying a B-17 from Hawaii to California -- Memories of the Red Barn -- Additional stories from wartime service, part one -- More on the Red Barn and stories from flying career -- Additional stories from wartime service, part two -- More on his father’s career and service -- Bailing out of a Curtiss C-46 -- Closing thoughts</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-27
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots
Boeing B-17F Flying Fortress
Boeing Company
Boeing Company--Employees
Civilian Pilot Training Program (U.S.)
Curtiss C-46 Commando Family
Douglas C-54 Skymaster Family
Douglas DC-3 Family
McMurray, Henry S., 1921-2021
Transport planes
United Airlines
United States. Army Air Forces
United States. Army Air Forces. Air Transport Command
United States. Army Air Forces. Bombardment Group, 305th
World War, 1939-1945
United States. Army Air Forces. Air Force, 8th
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
California
England
Guam
Japan
Northern Mariana Islands
Seattle (Wash.)
United States
Washington (State)
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (2 hr., 3 min., 4 sec.) : digital
Language
A language of the resource
English
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/cb4c1b066389f625da792f925a4dab17.mp4
81c74339edeec1904d18f0c0d6bc545e
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/dce45b28fddf75ec73a0c5939aac338a.pdf
25983d84dd24009ba652edbb948cf1f1
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Bruce Mennella
Interviewed by: John Barth
Date: January 28, 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2020 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran Bruce Mennella is interviewed about his life and military service. He
discusses his career with the United States Navy, focusing particularly on his time as an air
intelligence office with Fighter Squadron VF-114 on board the USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). He
also touches on his experiences growing up in Washington State during the 1950s and 1960s and
on his post-military career managing a car dealership in Seattle.
Biography:
Bruce Mennella served in the U.S. Navy with Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) during the
Vietnam War. He later operated a car dealership in Burien, Washington.
Bruce Edward Mennella was born on September 16, 1946 in New York City to Vincent and
Madeline Mennella. His father had been a pilot in World War II, flying transport airplanes from
Sand Point Naval Air Station. After the war, Vincent obtained a college degree under the GI Bill.
In mid-1947, he and his family moved to Seattle, Washington, where he worked for NCM, a cash
register company. In the mid-1950s, Vincent opened a Ford dealership in Burien, Washington.
He also remained an active pilot in the Navy Reserves.
Mennella attended school in Burien, Washington, graduating from Highline High school in 1964.
He attended the University of Washington’s School of Business. He planned on joining his
family’s car business after graduation; however, the onset of the Vietnam War altered his postgraduation plans. As a sophomore, he went to a Navy recruiter and worked out a deal to enter the
military after graduation. He passed the aviation written exam in order to become a pilot, but due
to his eyesight, he did not pass the medical exam. Instead, he went into Air Intelligence.
Graduating in June 1968, he reported to Aviation Office Candidate School in Pensacola, Florida.
From there, he went to Air Intelligence School at Lowry Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado.
While in Denver, he re-connected with Louise A. Vacca, a woman he had dated occasionally in
high school who was now a flight attendant with United Airlines. They were married in 1969.
Once he had completed his training, Mennella was assigned to NAS Miramar in San Diego,
California, arriving there in November 1969. VF-114 flew McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II
aircraft and was reformatting after a WESTPAC cruise. He spent the next 11 months training,
including flying in the back seat of VF-114 airplanes whenever possible. The USS Kitty Hawk,
associated with the squadron, was at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Washington
for refurbishing at that time.
Mennella’s first cruise was from November 1970 to July 1971 on the USS Kitty Hawk. Operating
in the middle of a bombing halt and in the southern area off the coast of Vietnam, the cruise did
not see a great deal of activity. Mennella worked in the Integrated Operations Information Center
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(IOIC), briefing and debriefing pilots on their targets. Briefings included weather conditions,
rules of engagement, tanking procedures, emergency procedures, and an overview of the area of
operations. In his off time, he traveled in Sasebo, Japan; Hong Kong; and Subic Bay, Philippines,
where his wife was able to visit him.
Mennella’s second cruise, also on the USS Kitty Hawk, began in February 1972. This time, the
carrier operated off the north coast of Vietnam and included missions going into Hanoi. Each
Alpha strike took 35 to 40 airplanes in a three-operations-per-day cycle. Briefings were longer
and more complex due to the area of operations. About five months into the tour, Mennella’s
wife had their first child. Since Mennella’s replacement was on board, Mennella was sent home.
He left the Navy in October 1972. He was awarded the Navy Achievement Medal for his first
cruise and earned the Navy Commendation Medal on his second cruise.
Back in Seattle, Mennella went to work for his father’s Ford dealership. He assumed the role of
general manager in 1980 and five years later bought the business. He added Isuzu and Subaru
franchises shortly after. His success brought him on to the Ford National Dealer Council, where
he served for two years. After that, he was elected chairman of the Northwest Ford Dealers
Advertising Group covering Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska.
Mennella and his wife ultimately had three children and seven grandchildren. As of 2020, they
were still living in the Seattle area.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
John Barth is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps, which he joined in 2016. He
has over 30 years of experience in the aerospace industry, including manufacturing, supervision
and management, and research and development.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
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Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 6
College years and joining the U.S. Navy ...................................................................................... 10
Air Intelligence School and marriage ........................................................................................... 12
Assignment to Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) ........................................................................... 13
Deployment to WESTPAC and mission logistics ........................................................................ 15
Activities during downtime........................................................................................................... 17
Second WESTPAC cruise............................................................................................................. 19
Discussion about photographs ...................................................................................................... 22
Post-military life and career .......................................................................................................... 26
Advice for young people ............................................................................................................... 29
Discussion about donated items .................................................................................................... 29
Details about air intelligence work ............................................................................................... 30
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Bruce Mennella
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
JOHN BARTH:
My name is John Barth. It is five minutes after 2:00pm on January 28th,
2020. We’re located at The Museum of Flight in Tukwila, Washington, and we are here
to interview Bruce Mennella. Thank you for taking the time to participate in the oral
history here at the Museum. Bruce, can I get you to state and spell your name?
BRUCE MENNELLA:
Bruce Mennella. M-E-N-N-E-L-L-A.
JB:
Can I get you to give us some background on your family? Maybe your grandparents,
your parents, what they did, where you lived, just some good background.
BM:
Surely. On my father’s side, my grandparents, my—so he would be my grandfather—
immigrated from Italy. Born in Positano, Italy, and lived in Long Island City, New York.
Met his wife, Henrietta, who was Irish. And he was a truck farmer. He would grow
produce on Long Island and then take it into New York City to sell it at market.
My father was their only son. So my dad had no brothers. My mother, likewise, was the
only daughter. And her father and mother were Norwegian. My grandfather, as—from
what I’ve learned, was a soldier in World War II. I’m—excuse me. World War I. And my
grandmother was primarily just a housewife. On my mother’s grandmother’s side,
though, what was interesting is my great-great grandmother was a nurse in the Civil War.
We were able to trace that back.
But being both old, single children, we weren’t in the cousins business or anything else
like that. Also interesting of note, my mother’s father was the basketball coach at the
University of Washington for the 1911 and 1912 season when he was a student at the
University of Washington before graduating and going to World War I. He was an
alumni of the University of Washington. My mother grew up on Mercer Island before
they had the advent of the bridges, so to get on and off the island, they had to go by ferry.
My father went to school, was introduced to the Northwest when he was a pilot in World
War II. He came out and he flew transports out of Sand Point Naval Air Base and flew
the Aleutian Chain and Nome and Kotzebue, other cities up in Alaska. Absolutely fell in
love with the Northwest. When he compared New York City to Washington, it was just—
this is heaven. Unfortunately, with the GI Bill after World War II, you had to return to the
same college that you were going to before you went into the war. So he met mom at the
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University of Washington at a party. They started dating. They married. But then after
he—when he got out of the service, active duty, he had to once again go back to New
York and finish his college and graduated from there. So we lived in the—they lived in
New York for a while.
I came along about a year later, was born in New York City. And we were there
apparently for about six or seven months prior to him making arrangements to return to
the Northwest. We moved out here in the early ‘40s. He got a job with NCM, the cash
register company. And then he—then he went to work for Ford Motor Company. I was
born in ‘46. I had a sister that was born in ‘49, a brother in ‘50. That house was—with the
addition of two kids after me, was getting pretty tight, so we moved to a suburb in Seattle
called Lake City. We moved into another house and had another brother in ‘53.
JB:
So by ‘53, you’re seven years old and you’re in grade school.
BM:
Correct.
JB:
What—tell us about grade school.
BM:
Grade school was fun. We walked to school. It wasn’t that far away. Probably the biggest
revelation for me in about third grade was these big, green things that I would pass that
were called trees. I didn’t realize, but my vision was quite poor at that time. And my
mother, at the advice of a teacher, finally took me to an eye exam, and they said I needed
glasses, which I got. And I discovered those big, green things actually had individual
leaves. [laughs] So I—that was—it was quite an impression for me.
Another memorable thing at that time was the first time my little brother and I went
fishing—because we lived right up above Lake Washington—we went fishing, and we
were using marshmallows on a little hook that we could throw out. And my first cast,
instead of a fish, I caught a duck. It came by and it grabbed it. And we kind of didn’t
know what to do. So my brother, at much coaching, grabbed it, held it still, and I had to
open its beak and kind of get the hook out of its mouth and let it go. But interesting times.
JB:
What about junior high?
BM:
Junior high—well, we moved from that house in 1955, so when I was actually about
fourth grade. So you want to jump up—by then I had another brother in 1956. And we
were—my dad had started his business. He left NCR, he went to work with Ford Motor
Company, and he loved the Northwest so much that when he had a chance of getting a
promotion, instead of taking it and maybe having to leave the Northwest, he went from
working from the manufacturer to becoming a retail dealer—or having a dealership,
which we got in South Seattle. And he opened up a previously unoccupied point, so it
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was an additional point. And it was in the town of Burien, which was south of SeaTac—
or just west of SeaTac Airport.
So we lived there. He was very busy working. He stayed in the Navy Reserves, continued
to fly. And my grandfather on my father’s side passed away in about the late ‘50s. So my
dad went and got my grandmother, brought her out from New York to Seattle, bought her
a house about two miles from our place, and she kind of became our permanent babysitter
and we got to grow up and spend a lot of time with her.
Junior high—grade school, junior high was a wonderful time. We were very fortunate.
We got to say goodbye in the morning, jump on our bikes, ride all over the South End.
You know, put 15, 20 miles on the bikes going to see friends and girls’ and guys’ places.
And you could go up into town, buy ice cream or something, and you’d get back home
eight hours later and Mom would say like, “What’d you do?” “Nothing.” You just—we
had a lot of freedom. There wasn’t the concern and restrictions that younger kids face
today because of society.
It was a growing time for my family. We were very active. Lots of sports. I was on swim
teams in the summer. We skied a lot in the winter. My dad just really got into Northwest
living. Fishing, bird hunting, skiing. My folks were quite strict in terms of studying, and
they always kind of told us our job was to get good enough grades that you’d be able to
go to the college that you wanted to go to. So starting in junior high, we had study tables
and you had to get your work done before you could play.
JB:
Your dad was still in the Reserves.
BM:
Stayed in the Reserves. He, in the late ‘60s, had a—he flew transport planes, DC-3s and
then the DC-4, which was called an R5D.
I remember particularly in high school—because it was my 16th birthday and he wasn’t
there to help me get my driver’s license—he was in Africa. He took an entire squadron
on a two-week—in the Reserves, you do two-weeks active duty. So he would fly—he
took everybody to Africa, and they were based out of Morocco, and they flew to Tunisia,
Libya, Egypt, and did a lot of movement of personnel and supplies. He reached the rank
of captain, retired in the ‘70s, I believe, after 30 years of active and then reserve duty.
Loved the service.
JB:
Your high school years, what were they like?
BM:
They were pretty nice. [laughs] They were fun. It was ‘61 to ‘64. A lot of things were
happening in the world. I remember Sputnik. I remember going to a friend’s house and
watching TV during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was active still swimming. We had a
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group of friends that just kind of ran around together. We all started driving. We were
pretty good. We stayed away from the drinking and the smoking. And we were—I was in
government. I was the Student Body treasurer one year. Just a lot of good times.
Took a lot of—we got some elective classes. I’d always take a business class because it
was—I was very interested in business. Graduation—summers—graduation ‘64. And
before I went into college, three of us went to Hawaii for a week. We got on the way far
back of a Pam Am flight from Seattle to Honolulu. And the three of us apparently looked
like we were 21, so the flight attendants liberally enjoyed some champagne—gave it to
us. Not with us, but—we were having a good time until the airplane came down, and we
were kind of going up, if you know what I mean. [laughter]
JB:
‘62 was the World’s Fair here. Did you go to it? Did you go to the World’s Fair?
BM:
Actually, this World’s Fair here, I did not go to. Yeah. ’61, too [sic]. No. But I did my
senior year—my dad had a friend who had an airplane, and he let my dad use it. And my
father took all of us, the five kids and my mom, and we flew from Seattle to New York
City, and we went to the World’s Fair in ‘64 in New York City and had a great time.
Flew over Mount Rushmore going back, circled that, went to Green Bay, Wisconsin. On
the way home, we went to Washington, D.C. It was a fun time.
In ’61—so I guess, actually while I was still in high school, going back, we also used that
same airplane. We went—he took us to the Rose Bowl when the Huskies went, I guess,
the second year in a row. And what was memorable about that was I always got to sit
next to Dad. He was flying, I’d be next, I had a brother, and then the rest of the family in
the backseat. We were coming out of Los Angeles, and he had told me—you know, now
picture it. I’m 16. He said, “Okay, now kind of watch these gauges when we take off.”
And we were taking off and climbing out of Los Angeles, and the gauge on this one side
kept going worse and worse and worse. And I said, “You want to take a look at this
gauge?” And the oil pressure was gone.
So he had to feather the engine, and we had to declare an emergency, turn around, go into
the airport. And, you know, they always ask you how many people were on board. Well,
you really weren’t supposed to have seven people, five kids and two adults, in this
airplane. So they said, “How many souls on board?” And he said, “Five.” And Mom
yelled from the backseat, “Tell them it’s seven.” [laughs] And he was not really—we
didn’t get in trouble. But anyway, that was my first aviation incident.
JB:
What aircraft was that?
BM:
It was a Twin Bonanza.
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JB:
Oh. So you got to know Seattle quite well. What was it like? What was it like here in
your high school—your junior high and high school years? How would you describe it?
BM:
We lived in a community that—it was the suburbs. We were about six—10 miles south of
Seattle. We had everybody from T. Wilson [Thornton A. “T” Wilson], who was the
chairman of Boeing at the time, down to the janitors of Boeing. Our high school, there
were probably 2,200 kids in the high school. It wasn’t built for that, but we were the
leading edge of the baby boomers. And so our class was 700-plus and both classes
behind.
You know, you could walk anywhere. You could ride your bikes. We had friends all over
the place. A lot of water activities. We were above the water, but my folks had a boat, so
we did a lot of waterskiing out in Puget Sound. You could go into town. Little League
football, Little League baseball. Didn’t go downtown a lot except for the time that my
mother thought it would be great for all of us, about four of us altogether, to learn
ballroom dancing. And every Friday night we got to go downstairs—downtown and go to
these ballroom dancing classes. And we met all these other kids from all over Seattle,
which was really fun. It actually had been a pretty good experience.
00:16:30
[College years and joining the U.S. Navy]
JB:
After high school, what’d you do?
BM:
My folks made it very clear to me in about ninth grade that I was going to college, so it
was a—and do the work, get the grades so you could go to the college of your choice. I
would have been third-generation Washington. My grandfather, which I mentioned
earlier, my mom, so I would have been third generation. My best friend and I, because
my dad was in the car business, he gave us a car, and we set out on a two-week trip. Now,
we’re 18. So we take off for a two-week trip down the West Coast to visit every, at the
time, Pac-8 college. It was before it was the Pac-12.
So we went—we picked the car up in Colorado and the—our dads knew where we were
supposed to be. And we were visiting all the schools. And one day we got bored and we
kind of said, “Well, let’s just get from here to here.” And we drove all night. They’ll
never figure it out. So my friend calls his dad, he says, “Where are you?” And he said,
“Well, we’re in Los Angeles.” “How’d you get there that fast?” “Um…” Oh, we have a
problem. His dad was a pilot, and he could figure it out, as well as my dad figured it out.
So, anyway, we did this whole tour. I decided to go to Washington after the tour. I liked
the West Coast. I didn’t like Los Angeles that much. Went to the University of
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Washington, pledged to a fraternity my first year, which was a good decision in
retrospect. It really helped me make that transition from kind of the control and guiding
that you get in high school to the free will, professor-doesn’t-care-if-you-show-up-or-not
in college. So it helped me get through that first year. I went into the School of Business
with the idea of getting an accounting degree. While I was in high school and even in my
beginning college, I worked—I spent all my summers working at my dad’s business, the
car dealership, just sweeping lots, washing cars, just doing all the grunty stuff that you do
when you’re beginning entry level. And I started loving the car business. So when I went
to Washington, it was with the intent of going into the car business when I graduated
from college.
Vietnam was starting to become a little more prevalent in everybody’s minds, and draft
regulations are in—requirements were changing. So in my sophomore year, guys were
getting picked off. First, if you were married, you were exempt. Then if you were married
in education, you were exempt. So I had fraternity brothers get married, go into
education. It just was a snowball. But anyway, they kept changing the rules. So at midpoint in my sophomore year, I said, “I’m just going to cut a deal.” So I went out and I
talked to the enlisters and said, “If I volunteer now, will you leave me alone until I
graduate? And then I’ll go into the service upon graduation.” So they said, “Okay, well,
let’s—what do you want to do?” And I said, “Well, I want to fly.” Because I—my dad
was in aviation, and we were—and I just loved it.
So I took the aviation exam, and I passed it. And then I took the physical and didn’t pass
it because my—I had—my eyes were not good. So I couldn’t be a pilot. So, man, I was
crushed. And then they talked about two-seated airplanes, where you could be a weapons
system officer or a bombardier/navigator like in an A-6 or you could be a radar flight
officer—RIO, R-I-O, radar intercept officer, in an F-4. And I said, “Well, I’ll do that.”
And my eyes weren’t even good enough for that.
So I said, “Well, what else can I do that’s aviation related that will keep me—and I want
to get into Navy Air.” And they said, “Well, you can go into air intelligence.” And I said,
“Well, what’s that?” And they said, “Well, each squadron has one officer that’s primary
function is to do briefings on threat—like, if you’re in a fighter squadron, like, give them
information about threat aircraft, their performance, their characteristics, limitations.
Also, defenses. And then when you went on—” So I said, “Well, fine. If that’s as close as
I can get, I’ll do that.” And they said, “Okay. I just want to let you know nobody’s been
selected as an air intelligence officer out of Washington in 10 years.” I said, “Okay.
That’s no problem.” So I said, “I’ll take that gamble.”
So it was about a month of downtime, and it came back, and they said I’d been accepted
to go into the Air Intelligence Program upon graduation. So I spent two more years
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finishing my education. I graduated in June, and then in August of ’68, I reported to
Pensacola for the Aviation Officer Candidate School, AOCS, and became a 90-day
wonder, as they called them. And we went through basic training, and then the pilots
went off on their career path and then the navigators and backseat people went off to
another squadron. It was called VT-10. I went to that school and got some training on
how to navigate and navigate an airplane from Point A to Point B.
But then I went to Air Intelligence School. And Air Intelligence School was in Denver at
Lowry Air Force Base. And it was a combined school of Navy and Air Force people, and
we were taught the air intelligence trade. I was there for six months. I was there from
March to October. Perfect time to be in Denver to go skiing during the winter, and I get
there from March to October.
00:23:51
[Air Intelligence School and marriage]
JB:
So you had a social life during that time. You had other activities. What was it like? What
percentage of your training time was classroom and what—describe that training a little
bit better, if you would.
BM:
We were pretty busy. It was a combination of, like I said, Air Force and Navy. We were
at school in class at 6:00 in the morning, and we got out about 1:30 in the afternoon. So it
was an early day, five days a week. I lived out in a suburb of Denver called Aurora,
Colorado. The apartment had Air Force nurses, a bunch of stewardesses and flight
attendants. You had a bunch of Air Force air intelligence guys like myself. And when we
weren’t doing school, we would tour the mountains, go up to Aspen, go to Vail. Just a lot
of party time. But, I mean, it was a lot of prep work. It was pretty serious working.
Prior to getting to Denver, I had re-established a relationship with a girl that I had been
taking out in high school. And when I was coming out of—just before I went into the
service, we went to a waterskiing party and we saw each other. And we had kind of dated
casually on and off, so… We kind of talked and chatted, and, you know, let’s get together
and let’s talk and everything. So she went off to be a flight attendant for United when I
was going down to AOCS. So I went down to Florida. She went to Chicago. And at
Christmas, just after I had gotten my commission, I was supposed to fly from Pensacola,
Florida. I had this beautiful route all through New Orleans and Dallas and Phoenix, and I
was going up to Sun Valley. My family had another house there where we skied every
winter. And my dad’s final comment to me was—when I told them my route on how I
was going to get there, his final comment to me was, “Well, good luck.” Just of all the
winter connections and everything.
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So we had a big party the night before we were all going to get out of town. And
Pensacola is not big, so the airport at Pensacola is pretty small. So if you missed your
flight, you’re in trouble. Well, I missed my flight. So I didn’t know what to do, so I just
started calling. So I said, “Louise is north. She’s in Chicago. I’ll call her and see if she’s
there.” And she was. And I said, “You’re going to be there for a few days?” She said,
“Yeah.” I said, “I think I’m coming up. I’ll call you later.”
So I called the—you know, the airline or whatever you could do at the time, call and I
said, “Can I get to Chicago from here and then to Sun Valley, Idaho?” She said, “Yeah.”
I said, “Do it.” So we flew up, and I got there about an hour before a snowstorm. And I
don’t know if you’ve ever lived through a beautiful Denver—I mean, excuse me,
Chicago snowstorm. But what I thought was going to be about a six-hour layover ended
up being a two-day layover. And so we spent a lot of time together, and that kind of
started the relationship. So when we got down into Denver, we were—we had gotten
engaged, and we got married while we were in Denver. So part of our married life started
out in Denver.
00:27:48
[Assignment to Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114)]
JB:
So after your training is over, what’s next?
BM:
Well, when I graduated, I had to wait for orders. And in the Navy—probably like in the
Air Force, I don’t know—but if you’re a pilot or if you’re a backseat in an A-6 or an F-4,
everything is based on how well you do in your class—your class ranking allows you to
pick the assignments that might be available. It was always the needs of the Navy first.
But if they had X number of jobs and you were the number one guy, you got to pick. And
I think I was the number two guy in my class, and when it was my turn, there was an F-4
squadron billet available in San Diego at NAS Miramar. And I said, “Perfect. It’s a twoseat airplane.” Which I really wanted to get a two-seat airplane. A-6, A-7. I mean, excuse
me, A-6, F-4.
So I got to—I picked that. I left school in November, reported to the squadron in
December. The squadron had just returned from a cruise in WESTPAC on the Kitty
Hawk, and the Kitty Hawk was going up to Bremerton to be in the yard for about a year.
So there was—it was a—when I got to the squadron, there was a lot of new blood and a
lot of junior officers coming in, a lot of turnover. The squadron was being reformulated—
reformatted. So we spent 11 months ashore training. Crews were—you know—they were
looking to find the best possible combination of pilots and NFOs that would fly together
and work well together. A lot of training, a lot of education, a lot of learning. And being
the only intelligence officer in a squadron, you’re kind of the ugly ducking—or duckling,
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or you’re the odd guy out. Everybody else has got pilot—I mean, everybody’s got super
testosterone and everybody’s, “I can do this.” Everything that a fighter squadron is
known for.
So I said, “Well, if I’m going to make it in this, I’m going to have to cut my teeth and I’m
going to have to try and do things beyond what I’m normally expected.” I really made a
concentrated effort to learn how to fly in the backseat. I had a very willing skipper or CO
of the squadron. And the ops officer, they were very agreeable to letting me fly. And I
took every chance to get on a hop that I could. When pilots had to go out and bounce,
which is just fly around the airport and land and go—do touch and go’s, simulating
carrier landings, and the guy in the backseat didn’t want to go, I said, “I’ll go. Just give
me your airplane.” I learned how to work the radios. I learned how to work, you know,
lots of different switches. Guys even taught me start—gave me an—you know, how to
work the radar.
So I worked really hard and built credibility within my squadron of learning how to fly
and honing my skills for when I was briefing and teaching the air crews what they needed
to know in terms of enemy defenses, tactics, systems, and giving briefs about Vietnam.
Because we knew where we were going to go. It helped build me credibility. We
certainly enjoyed it. One of the highlights before our first crew, the—somehow,
somebody worked it out that we could take all 12 airplanes at the same time—and it was
labeled a low-level training mission. So we took 12 planes, and we flew from San Diego
to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona and then up to Denver. And the goal was to never get
above 200 feet. We did that pretty well.
And I remember we were below the rim of the Colorado. We were coming around a
corner, and we were like—I think I was—we were in like the third airplane. And we
came around this big steep corner—we’re down in this canyon—and you come around
the corner, and there’s the dam and it’s above us. And so guys were just having to pull.
And the guy I was with at the time, he pulled, and as we just got—instead of just going
up and over, he rolled and we rolled over the top. And you could look down like this.
[looks up] And here all these people are looking up taking pictures and not knowing that
there’s nine more behind us. They must have had a pretty good, fun afternoon watching
all of that.
So that was really—but that was the kind of stuff that we got to do. We really bonded.
We did everything hard. We played hard. We worked hard. We drank hard. Just—it was
hard. And we got really good, good enough that we were awarded the “E,” which was
the—a Navy competition award for being the best fighter squadron in the Navy for that
year.
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00:34:03
[Deployment to WESTPAC and mission logistics]
JB:
That’s the VF-114?
BM:
That’s correct.
JB:
Did you have a nickname?
BM:
Aardvarks.
JB:
Why? How’d you get that nickname?
BM:
I should know that. But it’s Zot, the aardvark from B.C. comic books. And just this big—
and our stripe and our—and Zot was orange. So he’s got these big ears, and he’s got this
long nose. Just ugly looking thing. But it was on the airplane. And our sister squadron
was the Black Lions, which was VF-213.
But 12 airplanes, 35 officers. And in November of ’70, we left on our first cruise to
WESTPAC. That was a nine-month cruise. We got home in July of ‘71. For most of us, it
was our first time in a theater of operations. And we were primarily the—there wasn’t
much activity up north. In fact, there was hardly any. That was in the middle of a
bombing halt in one of the pauses. So everything we were doing was down south. My job
when we were on cruise, because I was an air intelligence officer, was—I really was
almost assigned to ship’s company, and I worked in what was called the IOIC. And that’s
Integrated Operations Information System. And we were in the center of the ship, and all
of the flight activity was briefed through there.
So our job in IOIC—and it became my job—was prior to an—what we called cyclic
operations. You’ve probably heard that. During the day, each cycle was scheduled to be
an hour and 45 minutes, and we would have so many cycles. And the ship would fly. It
was a 12-hour workday. And we either went from noon to midnight, midnight to noon, or
eight to eight. But anyway, within that framework, you were constantly having airplanes
leave—the next set of airplanes leave and the first set recover. But I would, as part of the
information system, to advise the air crews what they were going to be doing and where
they were going to go, we would have TV briefs from IOIC that would go into every
ready room, where the air crews from each squadron could watch the brief. Because we
had two F-4 squadrons, two A-7 squadrons, one A-6 squadron, and there would be an E-2
for early warning radar, and then there was a RA-5C or a Vigilante that was used for
post-strike photography to see how we did on a strike.
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Again, most—everything was cyclic operations. We would tell the air crews what radio
frequencies—first, we’d start off with a weather brief, let the guys know what the
weather was around the ship, what anticipated weather there was around the target areas
or different parts of Southern Vietnam. Then we would tell them who we thought they
would be assigned to with a call sign and radio frequencies. We would cover Rules of
Engagement. We would cover tanking procedures, emergency procedures, and give them
an idea of everything that was going on. If there had been, from earlier strikes, any
defensive activity, Triple A—normally there weren’t SAMs in the south, so that wasn’t
much of a target threat. But there could be a lot of different Triple A envelopes that might
be encountered. We would let them know about that.
JB:
Can you explain the Triple A envelope?
BM:
Well, there were different calibers of weapons. There was a 23, a 37, a 57, and then
larger. But the smaller the number, the shorter the height or the caliber of the weapon that
was—could be employed. And we normally in cyclic operations down south would send
the air crews—we knew they would go out and would be dispatched to a forward air
controller. And that would be an Air Force guy flying around in an OV-10, maybe an O2. And he was low and slow and was just looking for activity. And if he saw something,
then he would call airplanes in and would request—normally he would shoot a rocket
down and mark the ground. And it was white phosphorus. “Willie Pete,” as we called it.
And then he would tell the crew, okay, 500 yards in front, to the left, and kind of indicate
where he would like ordnance dropped.
On the A-6s and A-7s, which were more accurate than an F-4 in ordnance delivery, they
might do multiple runs and not drop all of their ordnance at the same time. In the F-4s, in
our squadron in particular, we were of the three that you make one pass only. One of the
things that we preached was if everybody kind of makes—if everybody goes down
exactly the same way and delivers their ordnance in the same path, the fourth or the fifth
guy down that shoot might—if there’s something down below that’s going to shoot back,
might have a pretty good bead on you by that point. So we always taught not to use the
same dive angle or approach. So our rules were everything on one pass. The A-6s and the
A-7s might make multiple passes. And that was normal operations. You would take off,
tank, go in country, try and expend your ordnance, and then come back and recover. You
might do that for 35, 40 days. Our longest line period—the Kitty Hawk was number 63.
That was the number of the boat. Our longest line period was 63 days of operations. That
gets pretty long.
JB:
And you’ve got 12-hour shifts.
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BM:
Right. And then after they do an event or a cycle, the air crews would come back and
then instead of briefing, we had guys like myself—and it might be me or it might be
somebody else—who would debrief the crews. And the debrief was to find out what
happened. Where did you go? What did you hit? And they were always looking for
explosions, secondaries, fires, smoke. And then we’d always ask, were there—did you—
any defenses? Was there any flak? Any Triple A? You know, what did you find? And it
became pretty—I don’t want to say routine, but on the large part it was not nearly—it
was—not a lot of opposition was encountered. But always there was some.
00:42:22
[Activities during downtime]
JB:
So during your 12-hour days, you got 12 hours a shift. What’s your off time like?
BM:
Well, in the squadron, when we weren’t working, you’d change out of flight suits—the
guys that were flying. You’d freshen up. You’ve got time in your room to listen to music.
Everybody pretty much had a reel-to-reel tape recorder. You might have the beverage of
your choice. You go and have a meal.
Most of the ready rooms—each ready room would have a movie for the evening. They’d
bring movies on board, and it would kind of go to each ready room. And then you just—
you could study. You could write letters. You looked forward to mail. A lot of guys
would go and work out. You know, personal exercise routines. It’s your time. You could
do what you want. A lot of guys would sleep. It’s pretty dark inside one of those things
when all the lights are off.
JB:
What about entertainment? Celebrities come on board and do some entertainment for you
or…?
BM:
Yes. USO would—I believe on each cruise—I never went to a USO show. I don’t know
why. I just did not. But generally, a show would come on board. There would be an
entertainer. Generally, a troop of girls, dancers or singers. And they’d be down—it’d be
down in the hangar bay, generally. And a lot of it was for the ship’s company’s guys that
really got to enjoy it, or any of the guys that really worked hard. These guys on these
boats, I don’t care what your job was, you worked hard. It was hot. It was humid. The
days were long. And a show like that was always well received and appreciated.
JB:
Liberty?
BM:
We’d go into port. Our port—favorite port of call was Subic Bay, Philippines. We were
always told we were going to Australia, but, well, no. Not this time. We’re going back to
Subic Bay. We did get to go—on the first cruise, we went to—in addition to Subic Bay,
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we went to Hong Kong, which was really fun to do. And then we made one trip to
Sasebo, Japan for some repairs. That was an extended—we went by Formosa and did
some joint operations with the Air Force from Formosa.
But generally, into Subic Bay. And then there you could either just stay in port. A bunch
of us like going up to a town called Baguio. And then one time a bunch of us had wives
that came over. So we would go up there. It was quite nice. It was just a flat hilltop and, I
mean, just dropped off on both sides. So there was nothing and then all of a sudden,
there’s runway. And we found out about the second time we were up there, it was the
first kamikaze air base that the Japanese used out of the Philippines. So the planes could
take off and could drop well down while they gathered speed to take off. But it was really
a beautiful city. And it was well-known for silversmiths. And I remembered the wives
would buy all sorts of just beautiful filigree silver napkin rings and trays. And it was
quite a bit cooler up there than down in town, enough to the point where you’d make fires
in your little cabins at night. It was cool enough.
But it was—and they had a beautiful golf course. It was very difficult and really fun. Four
of us were up there by ourselves, and it was really hilly and two of the holes crossed. And
we noticed that behind all of the trees there, there were guys. And we then we noticed
that they all had machine guns. And we were wondering, what the hell’s going on? And
finally there’s this guy who’s down below our—to our right and he’s going up the hill
and we’re going across and over. And we—this big entourage. And finally we find out
that it was Marcos, the president of the Philippines. So we all said, okay. Guys, if there’s
ever been a time you don’t want to slice a ball, now don’t. First guy, guess what he does.
Right into him. All the guns looking at us. We just, “Hi, guys. How are you doing?” And
he was up there playing golf. And we got a kick out of it. We got to meet him, say hello.
But, yeah. Other than the Philippines, not too many—you could go down to Manila, too.
That was fun. Particularly when you check into the Manila Hilton and your name is
Mennella.
JB:
Yeah.
BM:
Yeah. “Can we help you?” “Yes.” “Your name, sir?” “Mennella.” “Yeah, we know where
you are. What’s your name?” [laughs] And so then—I remember my—our wives came
over. So my wife’s walking down the hallway, and the maids would come out of the
room and they’d go, [imitates a laugh]. And they’re pointing and—they thought she was
Miss Manila. Like, instead of Mrs.—no, Mrs. Not Miss. Mrs. Manila. So they thought
she was a big deal.
JB:
Better service, huh?
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BM:
Big deal to me. Not to them.
00:48:41
[Second WESTPAC cruise]
JB:
So that’s—when’s your first tour over?
BM:
July of 1971.
JB:
And it’s back to where?
BM:
Back to San Diego. Again, it was a pretty big honor that I—when the air wing gets close
to being back to shore, it flies off, so you get there a day or two before the boat. And I
was allowed to fly in the back of one of the planes in the fly off, which, to me, that was a
pretty big deal. Again, I’m the odd guy because I’m the one guy—the spook. But I guess
it was a nice—I guess they were saying thank you to me. They let me fly off. So I got
home a day or two before every—but all the air crews got in there. But, again, it made me
feel really good that the squadron thought enough that they let me participate in that
evolution. And it was cool. It was really nice.
We were back home. We knew we were going to go back. We thought it was going to be
quite a while. And then the—we were in the phase of the war where the ground guys
were being extracted and it was pretty much becoming an air war. And we were getting
ready and practicing. We were getting certain guys rotated out of the squadron. We got
new guys in. So we were reformulating crews to work together.
I had an opportunity not to make the second cruise, but I wrote a letter asking him that I
thought it would be best for the squadron for me to stay and make another cruise. So,
actually, I volunteered for the second one. I don’t think my wife ever knew that, but I did.
And I’m glad I did. It really, I think, paid dividends for me and for the squadron. We
were supposed to leave—I don’t remember when we were supposed to leave. But we
went to the boat one day. My wife drove three of us from the base down to the carrier that
was at North Island. And my job as an intelligence—is to notice things, to look at
photography and be able to pick things out and everything. And my first impression was
the boat was parked backwards. Normally the bow is in from the sea and the stern’s out.
And when I got there, the back of the boat was pointed towards us. I didn’t say anything
to anybody because I just thought, well, maybe it’s just me.
But we got on board and kiss—I kissed my wife goodbye. And she said, you know—
because we were going to go out to sea for like three or four days and practice evolutions,
getting ready for a cruise. And we noticed that the boat didn’t leave. And we’re all kind
of like, well, you know, we’re supposed to be gone. And it just sat there. Finally, they
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came on board and they said, due to the ramp up of operations in WESTPAC, in
Vietnam, that we were leaving in four days. Go home, get your stuff in order, and we’re
just going to go. So we all go, “Yay. Oh, bummer.”
So I call my wife and I say, you know, “We’re not going out to sea.” “Oh, great. I’ll
come down and get you.” And so all the three guys and myself, we all get in the car, and
nobody says a word. Nobody’s talking. She’s just, [imitates talking with his hand] “Duhduh-duh, oh, what are going to do? And, oh, duh-duh-duh-duh.” So we dropped
everybody off. And at that point, we lived in Del Mar, which is right down on the water.
And I took her down to the beach, and we’re walking up and down the beach. And she’s
just, “Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh.” And I’m pretty quiet. And finally she looks at me and she
says, “What’s wrong?” And I said, “Well, I’ve got some bad news. We’re leaving in four
days.” And here’s the kind of squadron that we had. With that notification, probably 75
percent of us got together that night and we had a party and had just a big send-off. And
then everybody did their thing and then off we went.
JB:
You guys were tight. Seventy-five percent.
BM:
We were tight.
JB:
Yeah.
BM:
We were tight. We were tight. We TransPac-ed very quickly. Almost blew right by—we
didn’t stop in Hawaii. We just kept going. But we practiced when we were off Hawaii,
and we lost an airplane. The first airplane that we lost in the squadron, we lost off of
Hawaii. And they had a full load of weapons. And in—when we were in combat
operations, we always had a centerline fuel tank, which was a big, long pod right
underneath the main part of the fuselage. And to take off in a carrier, you have a bridle
that hooks onto the airplane, and that’s what throws you down. And then it releases, and
the plane takes off.
Well, it went down. It’s called a bridle slap. The bridle went down. It came back up, and
it slapped the bottom, and it ruptured the fuel tank. So to get an F—to get most of these
airplanes, we had afterburner. And so he’s in full afterburner, so that fuel is just going
right back into the afterburner and it’s igniting. It’s catching on fire. Well, this is at night,
so he looks like a rocket going off the front end of the boat. They don’t really know
what’s going on because the airplane’s working mechanically. But the air boss yells for
them to eject. And when he says, “Eject,” you do what you’re told. So they punch out. In
hindsight, if the pilot had taken a minute to just pickle off all the bombs and the
centerline fuel tank, he probably could have saved the airplane. That’s hindsight, and
hindsight’s always perfect. But anyway, so they ejected. The airplane went in, and the air
crew landed in the water. First thing you’ve got to do is get the boat out of the way. So
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the boat did a pretty good turn. But we recovered them, and they were fine. But that was
the excitement of going by Hawaii.
On the second cruise, we got out there and things were heating up pretty quickly. And our
second cruise was—just a total opposite of the first. The first cruise had been down south,
nice cyclic operations. The second cruise, we’re back to Alpha strikes. We’re going into
Haiphong. We’re mining. We’re going into Hanoi. I remember we didn’t know what was
going to happen. But I was in IOIC when the order came down for the first full Alpha
strike. And, you know, an Alpha strike is just 35, 40 airplanes, A-6s, A-7s, F-4s. Lots of
different responsibilities. You’ve got MiG CAP. You’ve got the guys that go in first for
flak suppression, SAM suppression, then you have the strike aircraft. And you have the
fighters to—protecting the MiG CAP, protecting on the way out. So lots of moving parts.
Very complicated. The evolution is a lot longer. You did about three a day instead of 10
cyclic ops just because of the number of airplanes and the magnitude.
So the first time we briefed one of those, it was a pretty big deal. And all the senior
officers came into IOIC and were sitting right there. And the head of every air wing is
called a CAG, which is Commander of the Air Group, and his job is to be in charge of all
the squadron skippers, who are in charge of their squadrons. So CAG briefed this first
Alpha strike. And it was—you know, in IOIC, we’re doing SAM—known SAM sites,
heavy Triple A sites, heavy Rules of Engagement. You can’t do this. You can’t do that.
And then you had all the target allocation, the—everybody’s mission objectives. So they
were very lengthy briefs.
Everybody took off. The guys all went in. They’re into Hanoi, probably—I’ve heard
upwards—guys who were in the debriefs, upwards of 300 SAMs. They were just flying
everywhere. They weren’t even—they were just ballistically firing them. They weren’t
necessarily guiding. So when the—and then everybody would come back, and we had a
debrief. And that, we thought, was going to be like a one- or a two-time event. That’s just
the way it became. It was that way for days. We did Haiphong. We did Hanoi, which
hadn’t been hit in a long time. Back to Vinh, the Iron Triangle, Thanh Hóa Bridge, just
all these famous names that we’re kind of reliving it. They were mining the A-6. And the
whole time, you can’t hit any of the foreign national ships in Haiphong Harbor. That was
a big no-no. But a lot of times, you’d see little junks and smaller trawlers and stuff. They
were pretty well—they were fair game.
But what we thought might have been a one-time deal became a daily event. And we
lost—in our squadron, we lost two airplanes. And in the A-6 squadron that we were with,
one pretty famous is called Viceroy 502. And Viceroy 502 is one of the airplanes here at
the Museum here in Seattle that they found the remains. And part of the parts that were
found quite a bit later, after the war, are down in a museum—or down in the Museum.
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The airplane that we lost—I guess that’s significant in my life—is the new commanding
officer took over the squadron in about July. And we had been flying from, let’s say,
from—so from February—I’m sorry. Yeah, into July. So that’s about five months. So
we’re pretty well into this. And we all thought we were going to go home in October. But
an event that changed my life was the commanding officer—we had just left the
Philippines, and I had been waiting quite anxiously because my—I knew my wife was
expecting our first child. And it didn’t happen while we were in port, so I was kind of
down a little bit.
But we had just gotten back up to the line, and we were flying again. He walked in, and
he handed me a telegram. And we opened it up, and it was the telegram from home
saying that my first daughter had just been born, that the baby and Louise were fine. And
then he went out with his RIO later that night and flew a mission, and they never came
back. We lost them. And not exactly sure what happened. We have speculation of what
happened to him. But because of that, our squadron had a policy that if we lost an air
crew, they would send somebody home to talk to the families and to the wives and stuff.
And then the XO, who’s now the CO, wasn’t on board yet because he was still ashore. So
the guy who took over and was running—temporarily was running the squadron, he said,
“Hey, your relief is here. You’re due to go home in October to get out of the service. Go
home and stay home.” I didn’t need a lot of convincing that that might be a good idea.
So I left the boat. I had to—or I got to inventory the skipper’s personal things and put it
all together for his family to ship home. And then I flew off the boat. They flew me to Da
Nang, to Saigon, to the Philippines, to Guam, Hawaii, San Francisco, LA, and I finally
got to San Diego. And I really thought I’d be really clever to just knock on the door and
say hi. I totally forgot that knocks on the door in the middle of the night normally didn’t
mean good news. But anyway, at 4:00 in the morning, I’m knocking on the door. My
wife opens the door. She looks at me. Oh, excuse me. Back up. She said, “Who is it?”
And I said, “Western Union.” So she opens the door. She looked at me, just this blank
look. “You’re not supposed to be here.” And slammed the door. [laughs] Knock, knock,
knock. I am here.
So that was how I got out of the squadron and out of my second cruise. And then Viceroy
502 was lost just not too long after that.
01:04:38
[Discussion about photographs]
JB:
I’ve got a few pictures here I’d like to go through with you a little bit and maybe you can
elaborate on some of that. I’ll hand them to you. [hands photos to Mennella]
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BM:
This is a four-picture series. I just happen to be in three of them. These depict how I
would sit in—when I was briefing in IOIC. And this would be for a cyclic op. The
enlisted man behind me is the weather briefer. And we would always start the brief with a
weather brief, like I mentioned earlier. And behind the green curtain, it’s kind of like
World War II-ish, where they would pull back the curtain and you got to see. We had
pin—we had big maps covered with acetate all of North and South Vietnam. And in that,
we had pins for each of the squadrons that would show where they were going for that
particular mission. And so it shows just the two of us, I guess, posing for a picture.
Another one shows him doing his weather briefing. One is me sitting at the desk getting
ready. I’m doing the intelligence, probably, sector of that conversation or that cyclic op.
And then there’s an aircraft picture. It just happens to be the—a picture from the rear end
of an F-4 showing the centerline fuel tank that I mentioned earlier. And it also shows a
load of ordnance hung on both sides of a Multiple Ejection Rack. And we normally carry
Mark 82 500-pound bombs. And that would be a typical bomb load for us to carry.
This is another—the second page, it’s a four-picture shot. Three of the photos is our
squadron ready room on board the ship. This is where we would get together for all
officer meetings. Each event, the crews would be meeting in here and sitting in these
chairs and watching the briefing officers on a closed-circuit TV screen. It’s where we
watched the movies at night. There’s notices, maps, and messages of importance to all
the officers who were in the squadron.
There’s a picture of an individual in a flight suit. His name is Pete Pettigrew. He was on
the CAG staff. Again, CAG, Commander Air Group, was the staff that was responsible
for the air wing. We were CAG—it was CAG-11. So it’s Air Wing 11. And, again, that
was made up of the two F-4s, the one A-6, the two A-7s, the early warning, and the photo
airplanes. And the fuel people, the tankers, the A-3s on board the ship.
His picture is of particular note. On our second cruise, he was one of two pilots—he was
flying in one of our airplanes and with another pilot from our squadron with his backseat
RIO and this gentleman, Pete Pettigrew, with another guy’s name, Mike McCabe. They
got two MiGs, 21s, on June—no, May 6th of ‘72. And it was a pretty big treat to get a
MiG in the squadron, so that was—we didn’t get any MiGs on our first one. We didn’t
even see any. And he has one other claim to fame, is that he was a technical advisor in
the Top Gun movie, the original Top Gun. And for those that really watched it carefully
and those of us that knew him, he was actually in one of the bar scenes, sitting at a table
looking to do bookwork with Kelly McGee [Kelly McGillis]. And again, he was a
technical advisor for the movie.
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This third photo shows a bunch of officers in flight suits. Except me. I’m in my normal
khaki uniform. These were all the pilots and NFOs in the squadron. And like I had—the
gentleman on his knees on the—in the front row on the far left, he was the other person
who got a MiG on May 6th. So… And he was one of my closest friends. He regrettably
was killed in a mid-air collision in 1979. And then in the second row in the center of the
photograph was the leaving commanding officer and the new commanding officer, and
he was the gentleman who was lost. And incidentally, I had gone back to Vietnam Wall
and done etchings of Commander Pitzen [John R. Pitzen] and his backseat, O. J. Pitzen—
I mean Pender. Pitzen and Pender.
And then for my daughter’s birthday—I never call my daughter on her birthday. I always
call her the next day. Because when she was born on the 13th, it was already my 14th. So
all this time—and she’s 46—I always call her the next day, and she just expects it. But
one of the things, I kept that telegram. And then I took the etchings of Pitzen and Pender
from the Wall, and I had the telegram on top and then their names put down below. She
still has that.
This has one photo of an airplane. And then there’s three photos showing small ships out
in the Gulf. One is—one’s a junk. Another one is just what we called Mer ships. These
little Mer ships were used for transporting supplies from a cargo vessel up into the beach.
These junks were kind of fun because some guys in the air wing—maybe in our
squadron, too—you can see that they kind of have a bunch of sails sticking up. Well, if
you go over them really low and pull up, your exhaust would inflate these sails and it
would just roll the junk right over on its side. And it was kind of a sport for a while. And
our guys were doing it and having a lot of fun until one guy came back with a little bit of
mast in his wing. And that kind of put an end to junk buzzing. It wasn’t—
JB:
The junks. It’s my understanding that they were also used by the CIA. And you had to
know kind of which ones they were using and leave them alone.
BM:
I can’t help you there.
JB:
Okay.
BM:
Nope. I—nope. No, I’m not good on that. I can’t tell you. They—no. Can’t help.
This last photo is a composite photo. Composite being that it’s made up of multiple other
photos. This would be a representation of what my job would be as an air intelligence
officer. If I knew my crews were assigned a certain road segment or they were assigned a
target, if I could go and take—I would—first, I would try and get visual—vertical
coverage of an airfield or of a bridge or some other target of consequence. This is a
composite in that it kind of shows the approach coming up to—from one of the
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quadrants. I don’t know if it’s northeast—oh. From the southern quadrant to the Vinh
Airfield. And what I would do is I would take multiple photos and make it so it turns it
almost into a 3-D, so you’re looking at it and you get the feeling of moving across the
terrain. Again, anything I could do to assist my air crews—or even in another squadron—
air crew in being able to identify what their target was. And photography like this was
just available, and we would just cut and paste and put all the stuff together to try and
help—just make it so the guys could get in there, optimally hit it the first time, get it done
so they didn’t have to go back.
This last photo is a picture of an F-4. It’s in level flight. It’s a pic—it’s one of the
squadron airplanes that I was—it’s a VF-114 airplane. Zot’s on the tail. You can see him.
This guy—a lot of times, guys would go in country, but the weather would not cooperate.
So they couldn’t visually see what they were sent in—assigned to hit. So the A-6s
primarily had capability with their navigation equipment to be able to know that they
were at a certain point and—whether on the Ho Chi Minh Trail or on land targets. This is
just straight and level bombing, getting several airplanes together in a small formation,
the lead airplane, getting to a certain point and just telling everybody to pickle. And this
is a load of bombs that’s in process of being released. These are 500-pound bombs. Not a
lot of fun compared to diving and rolling in and doing normal bombing operations.
The last one: four pictures. On the top right is an A-7. Wings brought up for most of
the—all the wings on the airplanes on the flight deck collapsed. And that was by design,
so they had more room to park additional aircraft. And this aircraft still has his wings in
the collapsed position. He’s got—looks like he’s only got six bombs on three—on six
bomb racks, three on each side. They’re probably 1,000-pound bombs or could even be
2,000-pound. Because that’s a pretty light load for an A-7. So…
And then there’s two other pictures, both just happened to be me being in a flight suit.
One’s right by the left intake of an F-4, and one by the nose on the flight deck in flight
gear. Because I was allowed—on the first cruise, I did actually get in flight time combat,
and I did get to go in country and do bomb releasing. And, again, I kind of became
known as the flying AI. So the guys in the air wing pretty well—and what I—why I
wanted to do this, even though I wasn’t supposed to, it just lended credibility to those
guys. They knew that I was doing what they were doing, and it helped them give me—
give them confidence that I knew—when I was briefing, that it’s kind of, “Hey, I’ve been
there too.” I didn’t get to go up north. I wish I had. I wish I could have. But I wasn’t
allowed to. The squadron wouldn’t let me. But that’s some pictures of me in flight gear
for being on the flight deck.
01:18:29
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[Post-military life and career]
JB:
Well, thanks. So now you’re back home. How much longer are you in the service?
BM:
A little over a month. So I’m technically unemployed. I didn’t get out. I stayed in the
Reserves. But for a day job, I didn’t really have one. But the whole time I was in the
service, I knew I wanted to be in the car business. My dad’s business was growing. It was
successful. So in ‘72, returned to Seattle. And a lot of conversations that, yeah, this is
what I wanted to do. I’d been prepping for it, my college background. I got a degree in
accounting. So I had the—to be able to—ability to be able to read the books. And just
started cutting my teeth being in a management position. And I worked in various
positions throughout the dealership for my dad from ‘72 to ‘80.
In about ‘78, ‘79, my dad, along with another gentleman, bought the Beechcraft franchise
at Boeing Field for Washington. And they had—the franchise was for Washington,
Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska. And they sold airplanes and ran fixed-base
operations. So it made a nice transition for my father to leave the dealership and go on to
another business. And then I was the general manager from ‘80 to ‘85.
In the mean—by then I have three children. Our daughter, Erica, the oldest one, was born
in ‘72. Her sister was born in ‘77. No, I’m sorry. ‘75. And their brother was born in ‘77.
And so we’re raising a family, we’re working, kind of back in the yard. We have—I
haven’t gotten too far away. I’m living kind of where I had grown up. But we finally
were able to buy the dealership from my father in ‘85. He went on to stay in flight craft.
And then one of my brothers, he and my—they—started another business.
While I had the Ford franchise, I expanded the business, enlarged it, took on the Isuzu
franchise, took on a Subaru franchise. And in addition to just the day-to-day operations, I
got into things like Rotary, was president of my Rotary Club. I got into the Youth
Exchange Program, where Rotary would send students to a foreign country for a year to
study abroad. And I had—I managed a group of about 35 kids I would place around the
world outbound and then I would bring—also bring in about 35 kids that we would place
around Puget Sound. And they would study here and be here for about nine months.
Professionally, I kind of got into the politics and representation of expanding my job. I
was elected by my peers to be what’s called the Ford National Dealer Council, where 14
dealers go back—from the entire country, go back and discuss issues of sales, product,
service, issues with the senior management of Ford Motor Company. I did that for two
years. A lot of traveling.
JB:
That’s quite an honor, though, too.
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BM:
It was. Yeah. It was very nice. And, yeah, it was. The community apparently rep—felt
comfortable with my ability to be able to represent them. And I would travel the states,
and I would meet with them and would have dialogue on their issues and tell them what
we were doing. Became chairman of the Northwest Ford Dealers Advertising Group,
which ran, again, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska. We would do the
non-factory advertising. Ford says, “Buy a Ford.” Northwest Ford dealers would say,
“Buy a Ford now.” And then the Ford dealer would say, “Buy your Ford now here.” So I
got into that level and was on the committee for three or four years and was chairman.
And then I guess my finest accomplishment was I was head of the Washington State
Auto Dealers. So all of the dealers, regardless of the make or brand in the state of
Washington, nominated and appointed me to represent them for a year.
JB:
That’s quite an honor again.
BM:
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
JB:
Truly is. I want to roll back for just a second—
BM:
Sure.
JB:
—before we continue on. So ‘78, you’re out of the Reserves. How many medals did you
get? Tell us about your medals.
BM:
How many? [counting to himself] Three, four, five, six. I don’t know. I got a—on the
first cruise, I earned an Air Medal. And I was rewarded the Navy Achievement Medal, I
believe, for my work as an intelligence officer and just my all-around efforts. On the
second cruise, I earned the Navy Commendation Medal, which is a significant honor, I
think. I don’t—they’re not given out like popcorn.
JB:
It is. Yeah.
BM:
I donated all of my—all that stuff was in a box at home for 25, 30 years. So I donated all
of it to The Museum of Flight. And they could probably do something more rep—than
I—than my kids would.
JB:
Good choice. I’m sorry for the interruption. Go back to your career.
BM:
It afforded us a lovely lifestyle. Our kids—I always tried to instill in the kids the same,
you know—you don’t have a job, but you do. When you’re in high school, your job is to
get good enough grades to go to the college that you want to go to. The kids were in the
Catholic school system, and they went to private schools here. And my daughter went to
Holy Names, and both my other daughter and son went to Seattle Prep here in Seattle.
And those were nice schools that gave them a good launch platform to go to college. One
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became a fourth generation Husky, went to Washington. The other two got a little liberal
and decided they’d go to Oregon and become a Duck. So one day a year that creates a
little bit of trouble in the household.
We like—my wife and I like to travel. She’s in a lot of volunteer work. Interesting story
on my wife. She didn’t finish college. So when my kids—we were at a football game,
and she just happened to say that one of her largest regrets—when my daughter—second
daughter was telling it, we—all of us that she wasn’t going to go to college because she
was going to be an actress. So she didn’t have to go to college. So my wife said, “Well,
you know, one of the largest regrets is that I didn’t finish school.” So my oldest daughter
picked up on this. And they came to me and they said, “Dad, for Christmas, I’ve got an
idea. Let’s send mom to college.” “Okay.” [laughs] So they made—they got a little
diploma jacket and they wrote out—had me write out a poem, and we gave it to her. And
she kind of didn’t know what to do.
But she did it. She said, “Well, they’ll never accept me.” This is like ‘91-ish. So she said,
“Well, they’ll never take me.” I said, “Well, the least you can do is fill out the
application. Let’s find out.” So she did. And they came back, and they said, “You’re
accepted.” She graduated from college 30 years to the day that she graduated from high
school. And we have both of her diplomas up on the wall. And it’s literally the same day,
June 6th, 30 years apart. So…
We travel a lot. We do a lot in our communities. Right now, I am a teacher’s assistant at
the school where my grandkids are. We have seven grandchildren now. Oldest daughter
has two, a boy and a girl. Middle daughter has four, and my son has one. And they’re all
at St. Francis School, a Catholic school here in Seattle—in Burien. And I volunteer in the
second, fourth, and fifth grade during the week, about 15 hours a week working with the
teachers on math skills for the kids. So I generally—I get the ones that are having a little
time picking up on the concepts.
My wife does a lot of volunteer work. She’s head of the foundation at our local hospital.
And we love traveling and do it as much as we can.
JB:
You’ve done civic works also, haven’t you? Steering committees and that kind of thing?
BM:
Yeah, yeah. Outside of Rotary, which I was really involved in for a long time, our
hospital wanted to do a Cancer Care Unit. And I was on the senior committee that
worked for the development of the steering committee and then the committee to go out
and do the fundraising effort. That was much—that’s where I learned real quickly I
don’t—I’d rather be an organizer than go out and ask people for money. That’s one thing
I just don’t particularly care doing for that.
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JB:
What have I missed? What have we missed? What would you like to add to this?
BM:
It’s been a great ride. I’ve been very fortunate. I had loving parents that were strict, that
taught us great us great skills. I’m proud that we’ve instilled those skills in our kids, and
that we’ve worked on it. I’ve just enjoyed everything I’ve done. I’ve tried to give it 100
percent. And just, whatever I’m doing, when I’m doing it—it’s like I said earlier, do
everything hard. Work hard. Play hard. I just don’t drink hard anymore. [laughs]
01:31:22
[Advice for young people]
JB:
So along the same lines, advice for a young person starting out today, what would you
give them for advice?
BM:
Study hard. Discipline. Organization. It’s just—it’s a different world today, and there’s a
lot of distractions, a lot of crazy things going on. But learn the basics. Learn the—you’ve
got to build the house from the foundation up. Get the—get as broad a foundation as you
can. Along the way, hopefully you figure out a dream and then go after the dream.
01:32:13
[Discussion about donated items]
JB:
[addressing oral history team] Do you have any questions?
KELCI HOPP:
Nothing super in depth. Just a couple of, like, points of clarification. If you
could state your entire date of birth, just so that we have it.
BM:
September 16th, 1946.
KH:
Excellent, thank you. And then you mentioned that your squadron won the “E” Award.
Do you recall which year that was?
BM:
[pauses] I—1972.
KH:
Okay. Excellent. Thank you. And I really think that’s most of my questions. I did have
one other. I didn’t know if you might be able to talk a little bit about what’s of yours
that’s on display downstairs, if anything of note that maybe had additional information
attached to it that you could share.
BM:
I know a lot of—there’s a lot of photography that’s attributed to “my collection.” [makes
air quotes] Some of them are actually my pictures, but some of the pictures that have a
header—or, I mean, a thing below it that say “CVA-63,” that’s not actually my photo. It
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came from the carrier. It came from something that—another part of—I didn’t take the
picture.
I don’t know what floor it is. It’s not the main floor. But I know my medals are there.
There’s a copy of my squadron patch, Zot, which says VF-114 on it. Some patches of
different things that guys collect and put on flight jackets. Generally, typically, they’re
about the aircraft type and places of significance that were in country, in Vietnam or
something. I believe I gave you my Saint Christopher Medal that I wore. Later I know I
gave you a large—or I donated a number of photographs that, again, I just had in a box.
And then I gave them to you and I kind of thought, like, well, this is crazy. They’re never
going to figure out what they are. So I came back and tried to tell you—put them in a
chronology so you’d know what they were. A lot of them are people photos. Some
places. But things on board the ship and people. I don’t really know what else you have.
01:35:21
[Details about air intelligence work]
KH:
On the photography piece of it, out of curiosity, do you remember the kind of photo—or
the kind of camera that you used and how some of those photographs were taken?
BM:
It was a Nikon Nikkormat that everybody bought when they’re in their first trip to Hong
Kong. I just carried it on the airplane with me. Lots of guys carried tape recorders. Let me
back up. On the first cruise when were down south, probably the first three or four times
you might have done it. I always did it because a lot of my—the limited combat I got to
do was always a thrill for me. So I got—I never knew if I was going to get to do it again.
On the second cruise, a number of guys would take cameras, and they also would carry
tape recorders. And the tape recorders were really beneficial in debriefing to try and piece
together all the chaotic—to roll 30 airplanes across a target in 25 seconds. I mean, it’s
just chaos. It’s organized chaos. And to be able to listen to conversations and in the
event—which mostly it never happened, in case there was a problem, you could maybe
piece together the dialogue and the events as they took place.
KH:
So that was like one of the tools that you used for air intelligence, was their tape
recordings?
BM:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. You could.
KH:
What were some of the other things you used? I know you mentioned that you got
reporting sent from you guy—from in—so that you could analyze it and then then brief
your squadron. What were some of the types of materials and intelligence that you got so
that you could then share that information?
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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BM:
We got most of our targeting—all of our targeting came from above, whether it started in
Washington, D.C. or Hawaii. But it all—it’s a funnel and it funnels down, and we were
given our piece of the puzzle for that day. I would rely first on photography. I would rely
on debrief summaries that—whether the Air Force put them out or we put them out, of
defense. Defenses. Where were we going? What are we going to cross? What’s in the
area? And a lot of that was most—from visual observation would be the most important. I
did get sometimes information in my capacity that there might be MiG activity in a
certain area.
Visual was probably the most important because that was the most current. Because if
you could talk to a guy who was there two hours ago and he said, “This SAM site was
doing that,” or, “That SAM—,” you know, “This SAM site has moved from here to
there,” that’s what we needed to know. I just had to try and give the guys the best
information I could to keep them alive. And so they knew where the threats were.
KH:
And you were the only air intelligence officer for that squadron for your tours?
BM:
Yes. Yes. I replaced a gentleman that I met when I got there. And my replacement, I—
while I don’t really recall him too much now, I’m sure I met him and worked with him a
little bit before I left the ship.
KH:
To transfer.
BM:
Yeah. But I was one of—so there was two F-4, two A-7, one A-6. So I was one of five
intelligence officers that were doing what I had talked about.
KH:
Okay. And for my own curiosity, you’ve obviously explained that photographs were the
most useful. Would those photographs come from other pilots? And then how did you
come to receive the photographs? Were there, like, facilities on-site where they could be
developed and then given to you to use? Or did they get shipped in somehow?
BM:
Target facility—target photography could come from within or without. If we were going
to be given a new type of target, that could come from Hawaii. It could come from
Saigon. We had a photo squadron, like Vigilantes. They’re RA-5Cs. Typically, they
would go over a target after a strike group would take what we call BDA photography,
Bomb Damage Assessment. And that photography would be vertical, and it could also be
horizontal. And that would be real-time photography developed on the ship, processed,
and just brought to us. So we could see, literally within hours after a strike, the
effectiveness. Did the bridge fall or did it not?
When we were talking earlier, John showed me a photo of an A-7 pulling off of a target,
which was a bridge. And you can actually see—you can’t tell if the bridge is down, but
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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you can see that the bombs were going off, and there was smoke. That photo would have
been done by the RA-5C, and it’s just developed and it’s right there for us. It was all
cataloged and processed, so the minute we knew where we were going to be assigned
targets, we could—that photography could be brought up immediately. It was housed
right in the area where we worked.
KH:
Excellent. That’s so interesting. I think that’s one thing that researchers would be
interested in going forward and have—if they view the oral history, is kind of
conceptualizing the technology at the time to get photos like that.
BM:
It was taken out of the air—the guys that had their handheld photography, that was
slower. We’d have to take that into the Philippines to—it was the old-fashioned way.
They weren’t digital cameras. [laughs]
KH:
Right.
BM:
This photo came off, was in a can, they’d develop it in the bowels of the ship somewhere,
and you could literally just roll through it. It’d be on two spools. And you had white
gloves, and you’d just kind of roll through. You know, it’s a reverse image because
you’re looking at negative film. But we would just get our little magnifying glasses and
just actually just roll it right by.
KH:
Thank you.
BM:
Sure.
KH:
I think that’s the end of my questions.
JB:
Bruce, I want to thank you for all your service and for taking part in this oral history.
BM:
Well, thank you. It’s—you’re welcome. Anything that will make it interesting for
somebody 50 years from now thinking about, whoa, how did they do it way back then?
[laughter] No, thank you.
01:43:43
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2020 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mennella, Bruce E., 1946-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Barth, John
Biographical Text
<p>Bruce Mennella served in the U.S. Navy with Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) during the Vietnam War. He later operated a car dealership in Burien, Washington.</p>
<p>Bruce Edward Mennella was born on September 16, 1946 in New York City to Vincent and Madeline Mennella. His father had been a pilot in World War II, flying transport airplanes from Sand Point Naval Air Station. After the war, Vincent obtained a college degree under the GI Bill. In mid-1947, he and his family moved to Seattle, Washington, where he worked for NCM, a cash register company. In the mid-1950s, Vincent opened a Ford dealership in Burien, Washington. He also remained an active pilot in the Navy Reserves.</p>
<p>Mennella attended school in Burien, Washington, graduating from Highline High school in 1964. He attended the University of Washington’s School of Business. He planned on joining his family’s car business after graduation; however, the onset of the Vietnam War altered his post-graduation plans. As a sophomore, he went to a Navy recruiter and worked out a deal to enter the military after graduation. He passed the aviation written exam in order to become a pilot, but due to his eyesight, he did not pass the medical exam. Instead, he went into Air Intelligence. Graduating in June 1968, he reported to Aviation Office Candidate School in Pensacola, Florida. From there, he went to Air Intelligence School at Lowry Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado. While in Denver, he re-connected with Louise A. Vacca, a woman he had dated occasionally in high school who was now a flight attendant with United Airlines. They were married in 1969.</p>
<p>Once he had completed his training, Mennella was assigned to NAS Miramar in San Diego, California, arriving there in November 1969. VF-114 flew McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II aircraft and was reformatting after a WESTPAC cruise. He spent the next 11 months training, including flying in the back seat of VF-114 airplanes whenever possible. The USS Kitty Hawk, associated with the squadron, was at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Washington for refurbishing at that time.</p>
<p>Mennella’s first cruise was from November 1970 to July 1971 on the USS Kitty Hawk. Operating in the middle of a bombing halt and in the southern area off the coast of Vietnam, the cruise did not see a great deal of activity. Mennella worked in the Integrated Operations Information Center (IOIC), briefing and debriefing pilots on their targets. Briefings included weather conditions, rules of engagement, tanking procedures, emergency procedures, and an overview of the area of operations. In his off time, he traveled in Sasebo, Japan; Hong Kong; and Subic Bay, Philippines, where his wife was able to visit him.</p>
<p>Mennella’s second cruise, also on the USS Kitty Hawk, began in February 1972. This time, the carrier operated off the north coast of Vietnam and included missions going into Hanoi. Each Alpha strike took 35 to 40 airplanes in a three-operations-per-day cycle. Briefings were longer and more complex due to the area of operations. About five months into the tour, Mennella’s wife had their first child. Since Mennella’s replacement was on board, Mennella was sent home. He left the Navy in October 1972. He was awarded the Navy Achievement Medal for his first cruise and earned the Navy Commendation Medal on his second cruise.</p>
<p>Back in Seattle, Mennella went to work for his father’s Ford dealership. He assumed the role of general manager in 1980 and five years later bought the business. He added Isuzu and Subaru franchises shortly after. His success brought him on to the Ford National Dealer Council, where he served for two years. After that, he was elected chairman of the Northwest Ford Dealers Advertising Group covering Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska.</p>
<p>Mennella and his wife ultimately had three children and seven grandchildren. As of 2020, they were still living in the Seattle area.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Mennella_Bruce
OH_Mennella_Bruce_transcription
Title
A name given to the resource
Bruce Mennella oral history interview
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Bruce Mennella and interviewer John Barth, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, January 28, 2020.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
Vietnam War veteran Bruce Mennella is interviewed about his life and military service. He discusses his career with the United States Navy, focusing particularly on his time as an air intelligence office with Fighter Squadron VF-114 on board the USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). He also touches on his experiences growing up in Washington State during the 1950s and 1960s and on his post-military career managing a car dealership in Seattle.
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- College years and joining the U.S. Navy -- Air Intelligence School and marriage -- Assignment to Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) -- Deployment to WESTPAC and mission logistics -- Activities during downtime -- Second WESTPAC cruise -- Discussion about photographs -- Post-military life and career -- Advice for young people -- Discussion about donated items -- Details about air intelligence work
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-01-28
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grumman A-6 (A2F) Intruder/Prowler Family
Kitty Hawk (Aircraft carrier)
McDonnell F-4 (F4H) Phantom II Family
Mennella, Bruce E., 1946-
Mennella, Louise A. (Vacca)
United States. Navy
United States. Navy. Fighting Squadron VF-114
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Vought A-7 Corsair II Family
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
California
Colorado
Philippines
United States
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 43 min., 43 sec.) : digital
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/d5fc13c921c2d95c161e83461879afad.mp4
907c7243a7fa589db1812b572a9c1a54
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/0d2cdc5e67fa58649f0843ef026f9f3f.pdf
92c08a7e828b85de38b456a5370bfc5d
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Iva Metz
Interviewed by: Geoff Nunn
Date: November 1, 2019
Location: Bothell, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Iva Metz is interviewed about her life and her secretarial career in the aviation and aerospace
industries from the 1940s through the 1980s. She discusses her professional experiences working
for the U.S. Navy, the Cessna Aircraft Company, the Boeing Aircraft Company, and North
American Aviation. The interview focuses in particular on her time at NASA and her
involvement with the space program. Iva also touches on her husband’s (Homer) career in the
military and with Boeing on various missile and rocket programs.
Biography:
Iva L. (Fullerton) Metz worked as a secretary with the U.S. Navy, North American Aviation, and
at Cape Canaveral during the Apollo and Skylab programs.
Metz was born on February 12, 1924, on a farm about 10 miles outside of Mankato, Kansas to
John and Jeanette Fullerton. Her father was a farmer and her mother stayed at home taking care
of their six children, four girls and two boys. Her mother passed away at 37 years old when the
children were little. Attending Montrose School, Metz describes her journey to school: “[we]
rode horses to school, and – all four girls on one horse. That was our bus.” She attended the same
school, elementary through high school, in Montrose, Kansas. By 1942 she was teaching in a
one-room schoolhouse east of Mankato with nine students all in different grades.
Metz became interested in flying as a young girl when her father took her to an airshow in
Concordia, Kansas, about 30 miles southeast of their farm. Once living on her own and teaching
school, Metz began flying lessons. After only five hours of instruction, she soloed an Aeronca
Chief, a side-by-side, two-seat, 65-hp light airplane. She was the first female pilot to solo from
the local field. Homer L. Metz, who would later become her husband, was also learning to fly at
the same airfield. Iva was only able to take a few more lessons before the airplane was needed to
train male pilots preparing for World War II. After Homer joined the U.S. Navy at the end of
1942, Iva moved to Wichita, Kansas in 1943 to attend ground school at Wichita University. They
were married in 1944.
When Homer was transferred to Banana River Naval Air Station in Florida, Iva went to work for
the Navy where she controlled the secret documents used to train the pilots on radar. After the
end of the war, the couple remained at Banana River to help deactivate the air station. The
couple moved to Glendale, California in 1946 and Iva found a billing clerk job at Andrew
Jergens Company. In 1950, after completing school and having their first child, Steve, the family
moved to Wichita, Kansas. Homer went to work for the Boeing Company and Iva for Cessna
Aircraft Company as a payroll clerk. The family remained in Wichita until Homer was
transferred to Seattle, Washington in 1958. The family, now numbering four with the birth of
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Douglas, put their furniture in storage and moved to Seattle. However, not long after that, Boeing
sent them to Hurlburt Field near Fort Walton, Florida. Iva found a job at Boeing as the secretary
for the manager of the facilities. She was at Hurlburt when Alan Shepard became the first
American into space on May 5, 1961.
In June 1961, the family was transferred back to Seattle where Homer went to school to learn
more about electrical system and electronics. After five months of training they were sent to
Vandenberg Air Force Base in California with Boeing. Iva found a secretarial job at Autonetics,
a division of North American Aviation which was designing guidance systems and involved with
Minuteman Missile testing. She became one of the first operators of the 1-A Data System that
provided direct communications with all North American facilities. The A-1 used telephone lines
and a punch tape to send the messages quickly and confidentially.
In 1966 Homer transferred to Cape Canaveral with the Saturn V and Minuteman programs and
Iva transferred to a North American operation at the Cape as well. Here she was working with
various engineering groups who were working on Apollo and the Saturn second stage. She typed
critical design documents, which had to be perfect to ensure the safety of the astronauts. The
astronauts were very appreciative, frequently sending gifts as a way to say “…thank you for not
killing me.” She became very close to all the astronauts over her time at the Cape.
A vivid and tragic memory was the death of Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee in the
Apollo 1 fire in January 1967. Iva wore a collar pin every day that she said was “my Roger
Chaffee”. She learned of the fire when her youngest son, Douglas, ran in to the family home
saying Chaffee had died. Iva said that couldn’t be right because they were only doing pad tests.
A few minutes later she found out about the fire. Throughout the investigation Iva typed up the
investigation findings.
Iva watched the launch of Apollo 7 from the parking lot of her office building about five miles
from the launch pad. Homer had told her to go outside and away from the windows in case the
rocket exploded. If an explosion occurred she was to get under the car for safety. Because she
was so well-liked by her engineers, for one of the Apollo launches she watched from a location
closer than the VIP section, about two miles from the launch pad.
When the Apollo program ended Iva continued on with the Skylab Program. Wanting to get her
son Doug close to a launch (Steve was in Seattle), she needed press credentials to get better
access than her own NASA access. She contacted the local paper in her home town of Mankato
seeking credentials for a Mankato reporter and her son. The paper sent two passes, one for Doug
and one for Iva. They were able to see the astronauts get in to the van taking them to the pad
from only a few feet away. The launch viewing area was only about two miles away.
In 1973, the Metz family moved back to Seattle. Homer worked on tanks for the nuclear power
plants in the Tri-Cities area of Washington, though he was still based in Seattle. North American
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didn’t have any Seattle facilities so Iva went back to working at Boeing. She worked her way up
to a budget analyst position on the military side, retiring in 1987.
As of 2022 Iva Metz was still living in the Seattle area.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Geoff Nunn is the Adjunct Curator for Space History at The Museum of Flight and also serves as
an Exhibit Developer in the Museum’s Exhibits Department. He holds a Master’s degree in
Museology (Museum Studies) from the University of Washington and has extensive experience
working as an educator and exhibit developer at science and technology museums. At The
Museum of Flight, he serves as the resident historian and curator for spaceflight, leading the
Museum’s efforts to document the past, present, and future of aerospace.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
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Index:
Introduction and personal background .........................................................................................6
Flight training .............................................................................................................................7
Teaching career, ground school, and husband’s Navy service .................................................... 10
Life in Banana River, Florida during World War II ................................................................... 12
End of World War II and move to California ............................................................................. 15
Metzes’ careers at Boeing ......................................................................................................... 17
Career at North American ......................................................................................................... 20
Memories of Apollo 1 and Apollo 7 .......................................................................................... 26
Memories of Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 ...................................................................................... 28
Experiences with Skylab and other space program memories .................................................... 31
Return to Boeing ....................................................................................................................... 33
Stories from moving cross country ............................................................................................ 35
Aviation experiences and favorite aircraft ................................................................................. 37
Advice for young people and outstanding moments in career .................................................... 38
Closing thoughts ....................................................................................................................... 38
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Iva Metz
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
GEOFF NUNN:
My name is Geoff Nunn. I’m the Adjunct Curator for Space History at
The Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington. It is November 1st, 2019, and we are here
talking today with Mrs. Iva Metz. So, Iva, the first question for you is a very difficult one.
Can you please tell us your name in your own words and spell it?
IVA METZ: [laughs] Iva Lea Metz. That’s I-V-A, L-E-A, M-E-T-Z.
GN:
Okay. Thank you. And when and where were you born?
IM:
On a farm in Kansas in Jewell County, which is about—I guess the house was about 10
miles from Mankato, where my husband was from.
GN:
Okay. And did you grow up on that farm?
IM:
On that farm and another farm, so…
GN:
What sort of things did you raise or grow on the farm?
IM:
Chickens and we had milk cows. Of course, I had to start milking when I was a—just a
little kid. We all had to do our chores and stuff, so—and we rode horses to school and—
all four girls on one horse. That was our bus.
GN:
Oh, wow. And was that—was the school in Mankato?
IM:
No, it was out in the country in Jewell County.
GN:
And you were out there pretty far. Looking at Mankato, it looks like, you know—it’s
barely 1,000 people today. How big was that—was the community around you out on the
farm?
IM:
Oh, probably—until World War II came along, probably I would say a 10- or 15-mile
radius, something like. And I think there’s about 1,200 left there now. And the school
that I went to, Montrose, was east of Mankato seven miles. That’s where I went to the—
from the fifth grade through the eighth and then to high school there in Montrose. So…
GN:
And you mentioned you rode a horse into school.
IM:
We did.
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GN:
Do you remember the name of the horse?
IM:
Baldy. [laughs]
GN:
And out in rural Kansas, did you have any, like, exposure to aviation when you were
young?
IM:
Yes. Yes, I did. When I was eight or nine, they had an air show in Concordia, Kansas,
which was about 30 miles from Mankato. And they would do—they were having an air
show, and they were doing the figure eights around. And I was so excited about it. And
so my dad walked with me over to one of the airplanes, and the man—here I was, what,
five—he lifted me up and let me sit in the seat, and, oh. And he said, “I’ll take her for a
ride.” And my dad said, “The hell you will.” [laughs] Broke my heart. So…
GN:
And so you’re—you mentioned your dad—what were your parents’ names and what did
they do for a living? Was your dad a farmer?
IM:
Yeah, he was a farmer. And my mother just took care of us kids. And she died when she
was 37 and left six little kids and stuff, so we just more or less raised ourselves after that.
So…
GN:
And so you’re one of six. How many—what was the division of brothers and sisters
there?
IM:
I was the fourth daughter. And then there was another daughter, and then they had a—got
a boy. And, of course, you can imagine with all those girls and then he’s the first boy, he
was a spoiled little brat. So… [laughs] And then there was another boy and then that was
it.
GN:
Sounds very similar to my mother’s side of the family. They had six girls and then a
boy—
IM:
Yeah.
GN:
—was the youngest, so very similar.
00:04:37
[Flight training]
GN:
And so you—this air show in—
IM:
Concordia.
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GN:
—Concordia, when did you first actually get—your dad didn’t actually let you take that
plane flight. When did you first get to finally fly in a plane?
IM:
[laughs] When I was 17, I went to a dance and—which my dad didn’t know I was
dancing, either. I wouldn’t have been allowed to do that. But anyway, every time we
would dance by, this good-looking kid standing off to the side would wink at me. So I
asked some of the girls from Mankato, I said, “Who is that guy?” And they told me. His
name was Homer Metz, and he’s already flying out here at the—and I said, “Oh.” So I
went over and got acquainted with him. And I was teaching country school at the same
time, and so then I started flying out there, too. And I soloed in five hours and twenty
minutes.
GN:
Wow. And do you remember what type of plane—
IM:
Yes, it was an Aeronca Chief.
GN:
And that was at the airfield in—
IM:
Mankato, hm-hmm [affirmative]. What used to be the airfield. It’s not anymore, so…
They have another one north of town now.
GN:
And what was the airfield there—what was the primary use of it at the time?
IM:
Just they would have kids that were interested in flying, they would teach us to fly. And
then the instructor would deliver papers. He would deliver, like, the Kansas City
[unintelligible]. He would fly over and drop the papers at a certain area, and the
distributors would come in and pick it up and put it out to the houses and stuff. So…
GN:
So he would drop it from the air?
IM:
From the air. Of course, he’d come in low and drop it so it wouldn’t tear it all up.
GN:
And do you remember your instructor’s name?
IM:
If you hadn’t asked me, I could have told you. I can’t remember now.
GN:
That’s all right.
IM:
They took the logbooks. The girls [referring to Supervisory Archivist Nicole Davis and
Registrar Christine Runte, who oversaw Metz’s donation of materials to the Museum
archives] took the logbooks, so it’s all in there, so… [Verlie Headon?]. That was his
name.
GN:
Got you.
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IM:
Takes a while to get this out of this brain.
GN:
And so you learned in—
IM:
Mankato.
GN:
—in Mankato and flying an Aeronca Chief.
IM:
Yes.
GN:
Is that correct?
IM:
On a grass field.
GN:
And were there other young women who were also learning to fly? Was it a mix of—
IM:
Later. I think I was the only girl at that time. And I was the first one to solo. First girl to
solo off of that field.
GN:
Wow.
IM:
I got a write-up in the paper. Of course, I didn’t tell my dad. I had my sister sign as my
guardian because I knew he’d never do it. And it came out in the paper and somebody
congratulated him about having his daughter being the first one to solo, and he said, “It’s
a damn good thing I didn’t know about it.” [laughs] So got to my—so when they told me
that, I said, “That’s why he didn’t know about it.” So…
GN:
Did you wind up getting in trouble or did he—
IM:
No. I was gone from home by then, so…
GN:
And so you mentioned this write-up in the paper. Did you run into—did anyone try to—
other than your dad not wanting you to fly, did anyone try to discourage you from flying
or…?
IM:
No, because I’ve always been real independent, and if I wanted to fly, I was going to fly
one way or the other. And I did, so…
GN:
And—
IM:
And, of course, Homer was flying there, too, at the same.
GN:
And did you—so when you say you soloed, it only took you five hours until you soloed,
or you only flew—
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IM:
I took—[Verlie?] took me up and went through spins and stalls and chandelles and all
this kind of stuff. And then when we got to about the five hours, he said—he started
unbuckling his belt, and I said, “What are you doing?” And he said, “I can’t teach you
anymore.” So he let me go—let me take off by myself. And, of course, he didn’t tell me
that you had to compensate for the weight of him, so when I took off, my right wing was
just a little bit low, but I brought it up. And I was supposed to go a mile north of town, a
mile west, a mile south, and back. Well, I was—black dots going around in my head
when I was first taking off, thinking, “I’ve got this thing myself.”
So I went two miles out, and, of course, everybody was, “Where’d she go? Where’d she
go?” But I made the most beautiful landing you ever saw. So he had me go around again,
and I came in and made a second beautiful landing. So…
GN:
That’s incredible. And did you keep flying—did you keep flying after that?
IM:
Well, for a little while after that, but they came—they were training the guys like Homer
and the other boys that were in the war, they were training them, so they took a lot of
these planes from the littler fields like that to train them and—at different places, so I—
then I didn’t—and then I left Mankato and moved to Wichita and took ground school. I
don’t know if you know what ground school is. Because I thought, if they send him
overseas, I’m going to go to Sweetwater, Texas, to Jackie Cochran’s flying school and
learn to fly the multi-plane—the multi-engine planes and fly them to him. That was my
dream. [laughs]
But then as it worked out, he didn’t—they didn’t send him overseas, so…
00:10:34
[Teaching career, ground school, and husband’s Navy service]
GN:
And we’ll touch on that here in just a minute. I want to just kind of take a quick step
back. And you mentioned that you were a schoolteacher. And when did you start teaching
school? How old were you?
IM:
Nine—oh, I was 17.
GN:
Wow.
IM:
In a one-room schoolhouse east of Mankato.
GN:
And how many students did you have?
IM:
Nine. All different grades.
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GN:
And then when you moved to Wichita, how did your—what year did you move to
Wichita?
IM:
1943. I just taught ‘42 and ‘43 in the schoolhouse and then I went to Wichita in 1943.
GN:
And so you met your husband at this dance, and he was flying, and then you learned to
fly. What was the dynamic of that relationship, with both of you being pilots of sorts?
IM:
Well, just everybody knew that we were a couple. We started going together, and
everybody knew that—when I soloed, they said that he was so nervous, they said, “If you
ever get married and have kids, we know how he’s going to be in the delivery room.”
[laughs] So he was so nervous. And, of course, I went two miles instead of one mile, so
he was standing on his ear when I came in. So then I never got a chance to fly anymore
after that, so…
GN:
And were you already married at that time?
IM:
No. Oh, no.
GN:
And so you moved to Wichita. Was—had he moved?
IM:
No, he—they—he went in the Navy.
GN:
Okay.
IM:
In November of 1942. And so—and he was at different bases and stuff, so…
GN:
And so when you moved to—from Mankato to Wichita, what was that like going from
this very small town and rural community out to…?
IM:
Just you had to learn to ride the buses and which buses to catch and different things like
that. So it was different a lot, but—and I worked—I wanted to go to work for Boeing, but
they said there was such a shortage of schoolteachers that they were instructed not to hire
teachers. They wanted us to go back and teach. Well, I wasn’t going to do that, so I
worked other jobs while I was going to ground school. So…
GN:
And so how was ground school? Tell us about that. How was that different from your
initial learning to fly in Mankato?
IM:
Well, they—you know, you learned—you had some schooling. You learned what was
starboard and what was port and this and that. And we marched and had schooling on
different things about airplanes and stuff. So…
GN:
Was it—who—was it run by the military?
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IM:
No, no. It was the Wichita University, so—that was teaching.
GN:
And how long did that ground school program last?
IM:
Probably a year. And then Homer was commissioned in October of 1944, then we could
get married. So then—I don’t know if you want me to go on with the rest of this.
GN:
Yeah, absolutely.
IM:
After we were married, they—and every—he went to—I forgot the word. Anyway, they
sent him—the first base was Shawnee, Oklahoma. And every class ahead of his was sent
to San Diego and the South Pacific. That’s when I said, “I’m going to Sweetwater, Texas
if they send you to—overseas.” But as it happened, they needed pilots to train the
bombardier students down at what was later the Cape. And so they sent him to Florida to
Banana River Naval Air Station, which is now Patrick. And then—so we spent our war
years in Florida fighting the mosquitos.
GN:
[laughs] So you mentioned your plan in the event that he did get sent overseas to join
Jackie Cochran’s flying school. How did you first learn about the work she was doing?
IM:
I guess from when we were in the ground school, they were telling us the different things
that we needed to know and probably mentioned that that’s where you would train. And
that’s where they trained the Women’s Ferry Command, Women’s Auxiliary Ferry
Command, the WAFS. And so that was in the back of my head to—I was going to go
there. So I sent and got the paperwork to fill out, but I never filled it out because I didn’t
have to.
00:16:15
[Life in Banana River, Florida during World War II]
GN:
And in your bio, it looks like while you were in Wichita, that was when you got your first
job in the aviation industry. Is that correct?
IM:
No, I didn’t.
GN:
Okay.
IM:
No.
GN:
When did you—when did you go to work for Cessna?
IM:
Oh, after the war was over, see.
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GN:
Oh, okay. Okay. So then—so when you were sent to—so then let’s talk a little bit about
Banana River.
IM:
Okay.
GN:
And it—so what was that area like when you first moved out there during World War II?
IM:
It was still segregated, very segregated, which—we were called “Damn Yankees”
because we didn’t understand all that stuff. And so he was—while he was there flying,
teaching the bombardier students with this new thing called radar, I went to work for the
Navy in—as a—just as a clerk and [unintelligible]. So I filled out papers to get my secret
clearance, and then I worked for the Navy. And I had the secret, confidential filing deal,
that I would have these magazines—or these papers that the pilots would need to read
about their planes and stuff. And it was all very secret, and I had to—I had to be very
careful with—every time somebody wanted a book, I had them sign in. And when they’d
turned it back, I’d sign it out to say that it was back. I had to control all that stuff, and
here I was, 20 years old. That’s a lot of responsibility for a 20-year-old kid. So…
But the—Banana River was—the area around Cocoa Beach and whatnot was very
isolated, I should say. It was an awful lot of palmetto bushes and snakes and spiders and
all kinds of stuff. But it—when the war was over, Homer could have gotten out in August
or September of—’46?
GN:
‘45.
IM:
—’45, that—but he’d signed over and decided to stay and help them deactivate Banana
River Naval Air Base and—because there were so many pilots getting out that the
airliners were just filled with pilots. They had a surplus of pilots. So he signed up to go to
Cal Aero in Glendale, California and learn how to repair them, put them together, and
stuff like that. So that’s—we left from Banana River to Glendale, California.
GN:
And when you got your clearance at Banana River, what was the process for getting your
clearance?
IM:
You had to write down everywhere you’d ever lived, how long you’d lived there, any
jobs that you’d had, how long you had them, and any discrepancy between this date and
that date, you—they would—you’d have to clarify why it was—clearance—there was a
discrepancy there. And didn’t take me long to get it. So…
GN:
And it sounds like having that clearance really affected your later career as well.
IM:
That’s true. So they had one—I don’t know if you want to hear this, but one time when I
had this file—this secret [unintelligible] thing, an Army—or a military man came in.
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‘Course, I knew he was pretty high up there because he had the—[gestures to her head]—
what we called “scrambled eggs” on his brim. And he had this document that was all—I
could tell it had been in the water. And he said, “Do you have document so-and-so-andso-and-so?” And I looked at my records, and I said, “Yes, sir, we have three here.” He
said, “Could I see them?” I had two. And he said, “Where’s the third?” And I said,
“Lieutenant So-and-So has it.” And he said, “I’ll wait in the office—in the Commander’s
office. Go get it.”
I was—I had a truck to drive to deliver these things. So all the way down to the flight line
where this guy’s supposed to be, I thought, “Oh, please be there. Please be there.” And he
was. And so I took the book from him, signed out, gave it back, and came to the office
and—to the Commander’s office, and I said, “Here’s the third book.” And he said, “Very
good.” I said, “May I ask you where you got that book that you have?” He said, “It was in
the water off of north of Daytona Beach.” So evidently it had been in some plane that
went down. So I escaped that one.
GN:
Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like it was a—that sort of position you wouldn’t want to be in if
things had gone differently.
IM:
And if the guy had been out somewhere and I couldn’t get the book, then what would I
do? I didn’t have to do that, thank goodness.
GN:
So you mentioned that they were training on radar. What sort of aircraft were they flying?
IM:
He was flying Beechcraft in—it was a twin-engine, and it had—the guys—it had—
there’s a picture there on the wall. But they had—he had he and a copilot and then a
couple of bombardier students in the plane, and they would go out, and with this new
stuff called radar, they would calculate just where it was supposed to be and where to
drop it and stuff. So…
GN:
And the information on that was—the documents that you controlled were manuals for
teaching how to do that?
IM:
Some of them. Some of them were. And some of them were just manuals on the planes,
the different planes, because we had PBYs and PBMs and the—then these bombers and
the different planes flying off of Banana River. So…
GN:
And while you were out there, did you live on base?
IM:
No. No, we had an apartment in Eau Gallie, which is now part of Melbourne, and—
which was about, I don’t know, maybe three, four, five miles from the base. And they
had this causeway—it was an old wooden causeway, so when you drove across it—
[imitates driving over bumpy terrain]— like this. And we had a little Crosley car. My
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husband would drive the car out to A1A over this bumpy causeway, and then he would
put the paper up on the steering wheel, and then I would reach over and drive the car.
[laughs] We had a good time.
GN:
And so after the war, you mentioned that he helped to close down the Banana. And I
believe that was in 1947. Is that correct?
IM:
’46.
GN:
‘46.
IM:
‘45 and ‘46.
GN:
And after Banana River, where did you head next?
IM:
We went to California so he could go to Cal Aero school and learn ground—this—how to
put the planes together and stuff. And so I—we had—he got $90 from the GI Bill, $90 a
month. We paid $84 for a trailer house that we hauled out there and $6 for his insurance
from the Navy, so there was the $90. So then I went to work for Andrew Jergens so we
could have something to live on. So…
GN:
And what was the work that you were doing there?
IM:
[laughs] I was a billing clerk.
GN:
And I’m not familiar—is Andrew Jergens, is that the, like, lotion—
IM:
Yeah.
GN:
—Jergens lotion?
IM:
Yes, that’s true. That’s true. They had all kinds of things like that.
GN:
And where were you living in—where in California was that?
IM:
We were in Burbank, California, just not very far from the Lockheed plant. So…
00:25:08
[End of World War II and move to California]
GN:
And do you remember where you were when you first heard that World War II had
ended?
IM:
I sure do. We had come home on leave for a few days, and we were at the depot in
Mankato when we heard that things looked like it was winding down as we got on the
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train. We were in Fort Scott, Kansas, down in the southeast corner of Kansas, when the
Gray Ladies came through. They were like Salvation Army people. And everybody was
sitting there like—and she said, “You ought to be happy.” And this one guy said, “What’s
to be happy about?” And she said, “The war’s over. The Japanese surrendered.” So many
of them, they just crawled out the windows and everything. And Homer was about to
have a fit because here we were clearing Kansas and everything that we owned and
everything was in—back down at Banana River. So he almost had a heart attack before
we got out of there and got back down to Banana River. So…
GN:
Was he worried about what would happen or…?
IM:
Well, he was worried because—you know, you’re on leave. I’m supposed to report back
in. So what do you do now? And there’s no way —you didn’t have phones or cellphones
or anything like that to contact them. And we had left our car in North Florida, so we
had—on the train to get to Jacksonville to pick up our car and then drive down—halfway
down the east coast of Florida to the base. So it was a worrisome time for him. [laughs]
GN:
And so what ended up happening when you got back to the base?
IM:
That’s when they were letting any of them that had—they called it 20 points. It was how
much time you had served in the service and stuff. And that’s when he signed over to
help deactivate the base. So then he was helping them get everything taken care of, and I
was trying to clear out all the documents and stuff out of the safe there. And then we left
there in—let’s see. I think we left there in July and went—they had told him—Cal Aero
had told him not to bring his family because there was no housing. So we thought, hmm,
well, we’ll just buy a trailer and we’ll go.
And you couldn’t beg, buy, borrow, or steal a car or a truck to pull a trailer. The banker
in Mankato told him, he said, “You know, in Topeka, they have all of these jeeps, these
brand-new jeeps, that they had built for the service, and they didn’t need them anymore.”
So they sprayed them a pretty green and you could go down there and buy one. So we
took the train and went down to Topeka and bought this jeep, and we paid cash for it.
And so then we towed this trailer, this 27-foot trailer, from Wichita to Los Angeles.
[laughs] And then the jeep—the jeep had—it didn’t have any side curtains or anything,
no top, so he put grommets in the—in a tarp and fastened it on the windshield and took it
back to the back and fastened back there. And that’s the way we went to California. No
side curtains, no nothing, but we had cover over the top.
GN:
What time of year was this?
IM:
August.
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GN:
Okay. Okay, so…
IM:
So we went on Old Route 66, going—we hit it at Amarillo and then went the—found a
place to live out there, to park this trailer and start him at Cal Aero. So…
GN:
And did the jeep handle pulling that trailer all right?
IM:
[laughs] It was in—it had two gear shifts. One was to drive it and one was for four-wheel.
And I remember once out there the—I think people working on the road couldn’t imagine
what was coming with this little jeep and this 27-foot trailer house, so they stopped us.
And it was on a slight grade when we started up again, so Homer put it in four-wheeldrive and the jeep kind of shook like this and then took off. And we got the—got
ourselves out there, but…
00:29:51
[Metzes’ careers at Boeing]
GN:
So once you were out in California, help me with kind of your work timeline. After you
worked at Jergens, where did you go next?
IM:
Well, we—in the meantime, we had our first son. And so we kind of wanted to have him
grow up back in Kansas around the family. So Homer built a luggage trailer—and by
then, we had a car. [laughs] A real car. And so then we took our stuff and went back to
Kansas, and that’s when Homer went to work for Boeing. And then I went to work for
Cessna.
GN:
And what was the work you were doing at Cessna?
IM:
I was on payroll.
GN:
And how many people were you in charge of [unintelligible]—payroll.
IM:
I think we—in all of Cessna, we had 500 people. And you had to make out their
paychecks and take out for savings bonds and take out for union dues and things like that.
So, yeah.
GN:
And what year was this when you first started there?
IM:
1940—1950. 1950, I guess. ‘49 or ‘50. Well, Steve was born in ‘49, so it was 1950. And
so they put Homer on second shift, I was on—at Cessna on first shift, so we had to have a
neighbor look after Steve for 40 minutes. [laughs] We had 40 minutes every day for
babysitting. And so we did that. And then I—Boeing then decided that—he called me up
one day when I was at Cessna, and he said, “All hell just broke loose out here.” And I
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said, “What happened?” And he said, “They’re going to send me to Seattle for 30—for
90 days.” I said, “I’ll tell you what. We’re all going.” So they were taking our house
anyway. They were going to put a truck route around the west side of Wichita, and so we
were looking for a place to move. And so we just put our furniture and everything in
storage, and we all came to Seattle in 1957. ’57, I guess.
GN:
And so what was—in Wichita, what sort of projects was your husband working on?
IM:
He was a functional test operator for the B-47s and B-52s. And then when they sent him
out here, he was on the 707s in Renton. And then they decided that he was smart enough,
they wanted to send him out on this missile deal. So we spent seven months helping to
build a house at Saltwater Park in Des Moines, and we lived in it three months to the day,
and Boeing shipped us out. I said—he’d come home, and he said, “Well, we got to go to
Vandenberg down in California.” I said, “I’m not going. Tell them we’re not going.” And
he’d go out, and he said, “My wife doesn’t want to go.” And he said, “Well, it’s that or
you’re going to get laid off.”
So that’s where we started our missile deal. And they sent us to—they sent us to Hurlburt
Field, just east of Pensacola, Florida, and he worked on the Bomarc missiles and stuff.
GN:
Okay. And while he was working on the Bomarc, what were you doing?
IM:
I did work for Boeing then in the office of the—they had the carpenters and he—my boss
was in charge of the carpenters and stuff around the base and stuff, so I was a—I did
work for Boeing there, so—for a while.
GN:
So when you say the carpenters, were they handling facility [unintelligible]—
IM:
Yes. Yeah, facilities and stuff on the base.
GN:
And how big was the Boeing facility down there?
IM:
You mean in miles?
GN:
Or in number of people and—
IM:
This was just—this was an off-field of Eglin. And Eglin was a big base. And this was the
offshoot for—so they had the Bomarc down there, and they had the German V-2s down
there that they were testing—they were looking at, and that’s what they were kind of
working around for the Bomarcs and stuff. So…
GN:
And what specific sorts of work were—was happening around the Bomarc? Because they
were built up here in Seattle.
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IM:
The Bomarcs were built in Seattle?
GN:
Yeah. So were they testing them or…?
IM:
Yeah, they were. And they would shoot them off. They would—they laid down and then
they stood up and they shoot, and they would shoot at a certain area, just to test—to see
how they—how the things that needed to be corrected or whatever.
And so we were there—I don’t remember how long. In fact, we were there when Alan
Shepard was the first astronaut to shoot into space. And I remember I was out in the
parking lot talking to Homer’s boss and somebody hollered, “He’s off.” And we said,
“Who’s off?” And he said, “Alan Shephard just shot—took off.” And that—of course,
that was out at Kennedy.
So then they sent us back up here to Seattle—Boeing did—sent us up here. And Homer
went to Harbor Island and took electronics and the electrical work for, I don’t know,
about six months or so. And then they transferred us to Vandenberg, where he worked on
the Minuteman.
GN:
And so when you were working on—or—on the Bomarc program, you mentioned that
they had the V-2s there. Did you see any—did they launch them at all?
IM:
No. No.
GN:
Did you see any—
IM:
They were just on display for them to look at. And the Rangers trained down there on that
beach and stuff.
GN:
Got you.
IM:
So…
GN:
And when Alan Shepard launched, did you happen to see or hear the launch because—
IM:
No. Because, see, that was—that would be—I don’t know how far Pensacola is from the
Cape. I suppose—
GN:
Yeah, Pensacola’s—yeah.
IM:
Quite a ways. Quite a ways. And I just remember that guy hollering, “He’s off. He’s off.”
“Who’s off,” you know. [laughs] So that was the first astronaut to go, before the Apollos
and stuff. So…
GN:
So the Bomarc work was—just to clarify, was in Pensacola? Is that correct?
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IM:
We were at the—at Hurlburt Field, which is about 20 miles east of Pensacola. So…
00:37:23
[Career at North American]
GN:
Okay. And then—so we were just getting to work on the Minuteman Program, and so—
IM:
So the Minutemans, where he started was at Vandenberg. And so when I went out to see
if I could work for Boeing, the base manager wouldn’t let husbands and wives both work
there, even if you weren’t in the same department. Absolutely not. So he did me a favor,
and I got a job at Autonetics, which was a branch of North American. And that’s—
GN:
And Autonetics was doing some pretty exciting work at the time.
IM:
That’s—
GN:
Can you talk a little about that?
IM:
Well, we had—they were shooting the Minuteman from there to Eniwetok down in the
Pacific. And so as I worked there, we had the guys that would set—they would set the
directions for these Minuteman—these missiles to go. And I—there again, my clearance
came in good use. So I had secret and confidential files there at Vandenberg for
Autonetics.
And we had a machine, like a teletype machine. It was called a [1-A?] Data System. And
they were trying to connect all of North American’s facilities together. So we would—we
got to practice for a few weeks on this 1-A data machine. How’s your weather there, this
and that, just to get the feel of it. It was a tape, like teletype tape. And so then when we
got right down to business, then we could keep in contact with White Sands and different
places that North American had facilities and stuff. So…
GN:
And do you know how—where were the main North American facilities located? You
mentioned—
IM:
Anaheim, I think. Anaheim, California.
GN:
So there was Anaheim, Vandenberg. Anywhere else? If you could kind of—
IM:
They were all—they—
GN:
If you could list where [unintelligible].
IM:
I’m not sure. I know one of them was at White Sands. I’m not sure where all of them
were anymore. So…
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GN:
So this 1-A data machine, how did it work? What was your—how did you interface with
it? What was your experience with it?
IM:
[laughs] You had to type on this machine that would cut holes in this tape, and then you
would hit a button and it would send it to wherever you wanted it to go. Maybe it’s White
Sands, maybe it was Anaheim, maybe one of the other places. And so I remember when I
was there one time this would—if there was something exciting or something that you
needed to know about, this wasn’t in—I had my desk in one place, and this was in a little
enclosed place not far from my desk. And this thing was ringing and ringing. I thought,
oh my gosh, what happened? I went over and looked, and it—Homer had already gone to
Florida because they wanted him down there on the Minuteman, but I—they went—he
went in March, and I stayed behind until the boys were out of school.
And so this dinging and dinging, it was a message from Florida to tell me how many
things they had sent me and how many they had received. And on the bottom of it, it was
a little note. “Homer says, ‘Tornado here, all okay.’” He didn’t know how to get ahold of
me, so he thought, I’m going to go see if North American will put that on the end of their
message. So that was the way we found out that every—and when he said, “All okay,” I
meant—I knew that he and our friends were all okay. So…
GN:
And so this teletype—and so it sent the messages over the phone lines?
IM:
Yes.
GN:
And how—
IM:
I guess it would be phone. It wouldn’t be telegram lines—telegraph lines.
GN:
And how did you—and who trained you on the use of this machine?
IM:
They just said, “Here it is.” No, they gave us—I think we had a month to train on how to
do this. They just said, “Iva, you’re the one that’s going to be running this thing.” So you
just typed in what you wanted to say and different things. It’s like learning the computer
over again, so—before computers and before cellphones and all that kind of stuff. So…
GN:
And how much—how many messages were—was it a message a day? Like, how often
did that machine see use?
IM:
Probably—I’m going to say it would probably be two or three a day coming in from the
different areas of things that were going on at White Sands or what was going on at the
Cape or like that. Maybe two or three a day. But then in between my secretarial things, I
could go over there and check it to make sure that I didn’t have to answer anybody, or if I
did have to answer them, I would. But when this thing started dinging, dinging, dinging, I
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thought, oh my gosh. I thought maybe a Minuteman had blown up somewhere or
something. And that’s when he sent me the message. So…
GN:
And were any of the messages sent over this system ever sensitive with regard to
clearance or anything like that?
IM:
To clearance?
GN:
Like, were they—were there ever messages that, since you had your security clearance,
you could answer this message, but then it would have to go into—
IM:
No, no, we didn’t—you had to be more careful with secret stuff like that because
WBMR, which is—and I don’t know—I don’t remember what WBMR, but it was the
people that—the big guys that would check everybody that had secret files. They would
check every quarter to see if everything was okay Were you having any problems, were
you doing things right, was everything clearance right and that type of stuff and so forth.
And I never failed on them. [laughs]
GN:
Wonderful. All right. And how—you had been working in these sort of administrative
and support jobs at various companies. How did the 1-A machine—how did that change
the—your sort of business flow at work?
IM:
Just another thing to learn. Every job I ever had, I learned a new job. And that was just—
I didn’t use the 1-A data machine anyplace else that I went, but since I was with
Autonetics, which was a branch of North American, when they sent Homer to the Cape,
then I could transfer from one—from one North American deal to down there. So I
worked down there when the boys and I got down there in June of—what year? [laughs]
I’m getting my days—my years mixed up. When we got down there, then I automatically
went in and checked in and was working for North American at the Cape.
GN:
Okay. And let’s talk a little bit about what—when you moved to North American. About
how old were your boys at that time when you moved down there?
IM:
When we moved to Florida?
GN:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
IM:
Well, Steve was the—the oldest one was—he was—he finished his junior year at Santa
Maria by Vandenberg. And he wanted—he said he wanted to stay with some friends and
finish his senior year there. And I said, “If Dad’s going, we’re all going.” And so we
went. And Doug was in elementary school. So he’s four and a half years younger than
Steve, so… So that’s how old they were.
GN:
And you moved back out to Florida. And so you had gone back and forth to—
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IM:
Three times in Florida. [laughs]
GN:
Yeah. And what did you notice—what was different about the Cape when you arrived
this time, from World War II?
IM:
Just like night and day. After World War II, we could have bought three lots in Cocoa
Beach for $100. We said, “Who in the world would pay $100 for palmetto bushes?” Ten
years later, they were selling it by the foot.
And so when we got down there in ‘60—[pauses]—that last time, the place had just
exploded. There were just houses everywhere, just people coming from everywhere.
There were just thousands and thousands of people working on the space industry down
there. Not just for Boeing or North American. There was Grumman there, there was
Douglas there, there was Hughes, people from all kinds of—that were working on this
[unintelligible]. Homer moved from Minuteman. He was one of the first supervisors to
move to Saturn, which was out att the Cape. And so there were just thousands and
thousands of people.
GN:
And so how did your work with North American shift when you moved to Florida? What
was—what were your duties?
IM:
Let’s see. [laughs] I’ve worked so many jobs, now I’ve forgotten which ones. I worked—
that’s where I worked as a secretary for different areas. And then the engineering
specialists needed a secretary. They had one that was so ornery that they finally moved
her out and moved me in. And I could do no wrong because I was—I’d bake cookies or
cakes or stuff for them, and they would do anything for me. So then I was the secretary to
the engineering specialists.
GN:
And how many engineers were you supporting?
IM:
There was about eight or nine. Some of them had been in the room where they had —
where they could watch what was going on out on the pad and stuff. And some of them
that was—the engineering specialists that was in there when the fire broke out and these
guys burnt, the—and they couldn’t go—they never ever went back in that room ever
again.
But they were out there to lend their expertise and their help. And we had one that sat in
the back of the room, and he tested everything that was in the spacecraft to see what
was—what would burn and what wouldn’t burn. So he had his little cubicle back there
where he would see if Velcro burned, if shoes burned, if this burned, if that burned, to try
to figure this out. So it took us about a year and a half to get back in the groove of things
so that they could start then with the Saturns again. So…
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GN:
And so the Apollo 1 fire was in January of 1967. So had you just arrived in—were you
fairly new to the Cape at—when that happened?
IM:
We’d been—we went down in ‘66, so ’67. So we was there about a year, I guess. So…
GN:
And were the engineers that you were supporting, were they primarily working on the
spacecraft or were they also working on—North American did the second stages.
IM:
Yeah, North American had the second stage and the Apollo. That was ours, too. So they
had anything to do with the Apollo. And I had—I gave the girls—there was a thing called
a discrepancy report, where in 1970—so I’m—I don’t know which Apollo this was,
whether it was the 14th or 15th. They were working in there, and there was this
cockroach—or this bug ran across, and the one guy hit at it. And he missed the bug, but
he broke the leg off. So they took the leg to an entomologist or whoever does bug studies
and determined that it was a German cockroach.
So they closed this up, they put traps in there, they—there was no water, no food, no
nothing. They closed this up completely for over the weekend, and they said that the
entomologist said that this would be dead if it didn’t have any air or water or food. And
so they opened it up. It wasn’t in the traps or anything, but they finally found the thing
and they—and I had a discrepancy report that had to be written up. Discrepancy, anything
that wasn’t just right, you had a discrepancy report on. That meant something had to be
fixed. So they had to go back in and check all the wires and everything to make sure this
thing hadn’t chewed on anything to make it safe for the launch.
GN:
And what facility was this in where this happened?
IM:
It was—where they—in the bay, out there at the Kennedy—Kennedy Space Center?
Yeah, we were out at the—in one of the buildings back from the Space—where the
launchpad was. And they—where the guys worked on the Apollos, putting it together and
fixing it and stuff.
GN:
Got you. And so how often did you get to be around the equipment that was being put
together?
IM:
No, not—I never was down in there. I was more up in the office. And the astronauts were
in and out and in and out, talking to—any little problem, they would come in and the
engineering specialist would tell them what to do or things not to do and stuff. So…
GN:
Did you ever get to talk to any of the astronauts?
IM:
Oh, yeah. [laughs] I did. Some of them—they used to come in, and one of them said to
me one day, he said, “Do you believe in ancient astronauts?” I said, “Of course.” He said,
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“It’s true. It’s true.” And he used to tell me a lot of things about what they would see
from space that—he said, “There’s a lot of things I can’t tell you,” which I can see now
from watching the History Channel what he was—what he couldn’t tell me. But he said,
“From up in space, you can see where—if you’re looking down at the ground, you can
see where maybe this patch of land is just a little bit different than the next patch of
land.” So they knew there was something there.
And one of them—I won’t mention his name—one of them kept track of what he could
see from up there because he had a friend that was looking for those Spanish galleons
down in—off of the coast. And so he kept track of what looked different, what’s different
down there. And so he would pass this on to his friend, and that’s how they found some
of those Spanish galleons. [laughs]
GN:
Things you don’t—you don’t normally hear about the space program.
IM:
No. But down in the—in South America, there is like a petroglyphs that’s miles and
miles and miles long. You’ve probably seen those pictures. And you can’t see that from
an airplane. You can’t see that from the ground. It had to be from an astronaut, an
ancient-time astronaut. So that’s why I said, “I believe in it.” And he said, “It’s true.”
GN:
And so what were your day-to-day duties in supporting the engineering branch down
there at North American?
IM:
Whatever they needed to have me type up or—and we had to—we didn’t have computers
then. This was before all that. So whenever you typed up something, you had four
carbons, your original and four carbons, and if you made a mistake, you couldn’t erase.
You’d hear—somebody’d be typing away, typing away, [makes sound effect, mimes
pulling paper out of a typewriter] and they’d be pulling this thing out because they made
a mistake and you’d have to start over. So I just did whatever they needed typed up from
their—whatever they were working on to pass on to the powers-that-be. So…
GN:
And did you have other secretaries in your—working with you or…?
IM:
No. There were some down on the other side—on the other aisle. I was the only one in
there. But there were other secretaries around.
GN:
And what was your official—did you have official title?
IM:
Secretary. [laughs]
GM:
Secretary.
IM:
That’s all.
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00:55:45
[Memories of Apollo 1 and Apollo 7]
GN:
So what was the feeling around the Cape at that time during the Apollo program? What
was the energy like down there?
IM:
Very—everybody had to be careful what you said, what you did. And even the
secretaries. As you were typing up things, you had to be very—you had to be perfect
because any little mistake that you made might affect the astronauts’ lives. And my
husband used to say, “They send you all this stuff just thanking you for not killing me.”
[laughs] So that’s why everything had to be so perfect. And just everybody was
conscious that we are responsible for—after we had that fire, we are responsible for them
out there, so we have to be perfect.
GN:
And what is your most—what are your some of your most memorable moments from that
time during—because this was one of the most historic moments in—
IM:
Well, the worst thing I can remember is when we had the fire because, like I say, the—
you were so close to those guys. And Roger Chaffee, he was so cute. I had a little pin I
wore on my collar all the time. That was my Roger Chaffee. And my youngest son—
when we were home at Satellite Beach, we had a couple over, and my youngest son came
running in. He said, “Mama, Roger Chaffee died.” I said, “Oh, no, honey, he—they
haven’t even launched. He’s still on—they’re just testing on the pad.” He said, “Oh.” So
pretty soon he came in, he said, “But they had a fire and he died.” And so that’s how we
found out about it.
And when you have a missile on the pad, they have these big spotlights, about 20 of them
around shining on them like this white icicle, because everything is—and when we were
going out to work that next morning, my husband and I rode that—together that day. I
said, “I don’t think I can—I just don’t think I can go into work.” And he said, “Well, you
better get ahold of yourself because this is not going to be over in a week or two. It’s
going to be something.”
And so they had to go through what happened, what started the fire, why did—and we
had to write up all that information on that—what happened and why did the fire start.
We had 100% oxygen in that—in the Apollo at that time. And they said, as somebody
moved their foot, they thought, and made a spark and that set it off. And they couldn’t—
they couldn’t open the hatch from outside. That was one thing North American wanted to
have it so they could open it, but NASA—it was more expensive. So when they—they
couldn’t get them out. Within 18 seconds the guys were gone, so… And I didn’t—they
had a memorial service and everything, but I didn’t go. I just…
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GN:
It was—yeah.
IM:
It was just too hard.
GN:
If you need a minute.
IM:
No, that’s okay.
GN:
So when you are—if you’re able to, when you got into work that first day, what were you
asked to do and when—
IM:
Well, anything that came up about what possibly happened or could have happened or
could have been improved, we’d have to type up those reports for the engineers and stuff.
And, of course, there were people coming in from Anaheim, from everywhere from
North American, to see what was going on and stuff. So that was the big thing. We had to
type up all that of what happened and what they thought happened, what could have
happened and such as that. So that was the—
GN:
And did procedures—you mentioned that you had to be perfect, in the sense that you had
the astronauts’ lives in your hands. Did procedures change in your work from before and
after the fire?
IM:
No, not really. We still had to be perfect because we had—I think it was about a year and
a half before they sent the Apollo—
GN:
7.
IM:
7, yeah. The one that went up. So we had all of that time to get all this together and get
things worked out where they felt like it was okay now, and to—it’s going to be okay.
We’ve worked out all the problems. Everything’s going to be safe. We aren’t going to
have any more fires and stuff. Which we did. We didn’t have any more fires. We did a
good job and got the guys up there okay. So…
GN:
So do you remember the—that—the Apollo 7 launch, the first launch?
IM:
Oh, yeah. That’s—my husband said—he called—my—the building I was in was back
about five miles from the pad, and his office was under the pad. But he called me, and he
said, “Where are you?” And I said, “I’m in the office.” And it was all windows on them.
He said, “Would you do something for me?” And I said, “What?” He said, “Go out and
stand by the car.” And I said, “And for why?” And he said, “If this thing blows, get under
the car.”
So he was thinking—but it didn’t. Because we never—a Saturn V never blew up, never.
All the others, we had many, many fires, many blowups, and stuff of the others, the Thors
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and all that kind of stuff, but not a Saturn V. So he wanted to make sure I was away from
all those windows because you never knew with that much power what was going to
be—what would happen. So…
GN:
And how far were you from the launchpad?
IM:
I would say about five miles.
GN:
And so were you standing out by the car when—
IM:
Yes. Yeah.
GN:
So what was the experience of actually—of the rocket launching on your way to the
parking lot?
IM:
You just—go baby, go baby, you know. It just—it was thrilling. So then I could go back
into my office. [laughs] So…
01:03:30
[Memories of Apollo 11 and Apollo 13]
GN:
And so with—so then a few years later, there were more launches and then—
IM:
Oh, yeah. And the—see, the—since the engineers had this one secretary that was—she
was just mean. She was just ornery. So when I got in there, they treated me like a queen
because I was nice and I would answer the phone and I would bake cakes and stuff and
peanut brittle and take it out to them. So they thought I was something. So they would
take me out to the pad. I was out there for one of the launches. And one of the engineers
took me out, and I was on the ropes. I was closer than the VIP section, where the
President was, because we were closer—we were about a mile back from them. The VIP
section was about three miles back.
And when that went off, your clothes—[shakes her shirt]—I’m probably making—your
clothes would just shake like this from the shockwaves coming from the Saturn V. And I
heard this [makes sound effect] and I ducked like this. And I thought flying saucer. I
don’t know why. I thought it was a flying saucer. He just reached over and put his hand
on my shoulder, and he said, “It’s okay, Iva. It’s just going up the variegated
[unintelligible] on the side of the building.” The shockwaves, as it would go up the
corrugated stuff, it would make that funny noise. So the engineers were really, really
good to me, so… I was good to them, too, so…
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GN:
And with the Apollo 11 launch, that was like the sort of epitome in the— within the
Apollo program. Do you remember the launch, where you were when that—when Apollo
11 went up?
IM:
I don’t know if I was out there or if I was still in the office. When we knew the Saturn Vs
weren’t going to blow up, then we didn’t go out to the pad so much. But I really don’t
remember exactly where I was, but I presume I was back in the office. But you can bet
we were all looking out that window watching that—everything what was going on. And,
of course, the—our big boss had the television—the telemetry and everything right in his
office, so we all grouped around his office to listen to it and see what was happening.
So…
GN:
And who was your big boss at the time?
IM:
I should remember that because he’s the—Buzz—no, what was his name? I forgot what
his name was.
GN:
That’s all right.
IM:
It’ll come to me.
GN:
So do you remember where you were when—during the first Moon landing, when we
first actually landed?
IM:
No, I don’t really. I’m sure I was right there someplace close. I don’t remember what
time of day that they actually landed, but I probably was out there somewhere. I might
have been home even. I don’t remember just exactly.
GN:
Okay. So you were also working at the Cape, I believe, when Apollo 13 had its accident
in flight.
IM:
Yes.
GN:
Do you remember anything about?
IM:
Yes. Because, see, we had—Grumman had the—behind the Apollo was a CSM capsule
that had a—that’s where the fire was. They had already launched—they had already put
the Apollo connected with the—I’m getting this mixed up now.
GN:
The Lunar Module?
IM:
The Lunar Module. And so they had already connected when this fire happened, and
the—and there was—the oxygen in the Apollo was going out so fast that they—the guys
had to crawl back into the LM, the Lunar Module, which was Grumman’s, and to—see,
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one of the astronauts that was supposed to be on 13 had been—his son had been exposed
to the measles, so they wouldn’t let him go. They put somebody in his place. And so he
was on the ground trying to work with what was there, like tape and pieces of cardboard
and whatnot, to put over where the oxygen was leaking out of. So he was down there
telling these guys up there what to do to fix it. And, of course, then we had to live that
down from Grumman. “Oh, we had to save your you-know-whats from—because we had
oxygen and you didn’t, so we had to save your guys.” [laughs]
GN:
So did the engineers that you supported—what was their—did they have any role or
activity in when that mission was playing out and were you supporting that?
IM:
Yes, they had to figure out what caused the fire, the—in the CSM and stuff. So
everything that went through the engineers had to be typed up and then submitted to the
powers-that-be to—so that everything—we had to document everything, everything that
happened and stuff. So…
GN:
And I know that in—at least in Houston in Mission Control, when these missions would
return, there would be big celebrations. What was the—was there a ritual around North
American at the end of a mission?
IM:
No. A lot of people did. A lot of people would go back into Cocoa Beach and get drunk
and all this and that, but we never did because even if you went—well, once, the first
time we went, in 10 minutes the people didn’t even know who you were anyway, so we
never went after that. Let them go in there and get drunk and make hay with the sunshine
and stuff.
So it just—after they—then, see, after they landed, then we had to worry about getting
them back. And you had all those tiles. You probably saw those down there, the tiles that
they put on the bottom end of the Apollo, to come through the—when you come back
into the atmosphere, it’s like being in a blast furnace, all this fire and stuff coming up
around you. And those tiles, did we do a good enough job for those tiles to protect them
from in—the inside of the Apollo? Which we did. And I noticed that they had those tiles
down there at the Museum, and it showed one of them that was burnt.
And so when the guys would go around the Moon on the back side, you would lose—you
couldn’t—they couldn’t hear them talking. You’d lose communication with them because
on the back side of the Moon—so about for 30 minutes or so, everybody would hold their
breath until they would come back around. “Houston, Houston, we’re okay.”
GN:
We got them all back safely.
IM:
We did. We did.
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01:12:14
[Experiences with Skylab and other space program memories]
GN:
So you were at the Cape until 1972, correct? And—
IM:
‘73.
GN:
‘73.
IM:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
GN:
Excuse me. And so once—after the Moon landings, you shifted work to work on—what
was North American working on down there? Skylab?
IM:
Skylab, yeah. We were there for Skylab 1 and Skylab 2, and then we came back up here.
So…
GN:
And what was North American’s role on the Skylab?
IM:
I don’t really—I really don’t know. Except that one time when the Skylab—when it went
up there, I should say, they—it had like the helicopter’s blades on top, and the one didn’t
open. It was supposed to shade where the guys were working in the Skylab. And it didn’t
open, so it was getting hot. I mean, it would be too hot for them to be able to stay in there
any length of time. And so everybody was in to the—in to the engineers, “What are we
going to do, what are we going to do,” and everything. And so I was just kidding with
them, and I said, “Well, you got the CSM in the Apollo. Why don’t you take some stuff
up there and put a cover on it.” They said, “Oh, sure, Iva.” They knew I was kidding.
But that night—when I was going to work the next morning, that’s what they were going
to do. And so I said, “I talked to John Young, and he said that was a good idea,” so…
[laughs] Of course, I was always kidding with them, so they knew that I hadn’t talked to
John Young or anything. But then I gave the girls a picture and a little swab—little pieces
of what that umbrella that they took up there, what it was made out of. So I gave it to
Christine and they have that, so… It was three-ply stuff, so… And they covered it over
and kept—so the guys could work on the—in there without cooking.
GN:
Well, and they managed to make Skylab work for those.
IM:
Yeah, they did. So Skylab 1 and 2. I really—when Apollo was—when the 17 was gone—
and I might tell you, too. I went to my big boss for the last launch, and I said, “You
know, our youngest son was between four and five when we went out in this missile
thing, and he has more right to be out there for the launch than the—half of those people
in the VIP section,” which included the President and all of them. And he said, “Well,
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Iva, I can get him on the party boat. That would be three miles back.” And I said, “That’s
not close enough. I want him clear out there.” And he said, “Go talk to NASA and if
they’ll get him out there, fine.” I said, “Okay. If they call you and say, ‘One of your
people is over here causing trouble,’ will you stand up for me?” And he said, “Sure.”
So I went over and talked to them, and they said, “Do you know an editor anywhere?” I
said, “Of what?” And he said, “A magazine, a paper, anywhere.” I said, “What about
Kansas?” He said, “That’s okay.” And I knew the editor of the paper in Mankato, so I
wrote to him or called him, I don’t remember which, and told him that we needed some
press passes. And I said, “So get two of them, and you can come down and stay with us,
and then you and my son can—Doug—can go out there.” And he said, “Well, I’m not
going to be able to come down, but I’ll send two. We’ll make out one for you—” Me and
one for my son. The older boy was out here in Seattle, so he didn’t get to go.
So we went out, and he was as close to me—he was as close to the astronauts when they
came out of the building to get in the van to take them out to the pad as I am to you
[gestures to someone offscreen]. That close. And so then I took him out there and got him
on the ropes where the astronaut—where the engineer had taken me. So, see, he was just
about a mile and a half back from the launch. So I had prepared him for the shockwaves
and stuff, so he knew what was coming. And we took some video. You can hear us
hollering on that thing, “There it goes. There it goes. Yay!” And he got to go—I could go
places with that press pass that I couldn’t go with my NASA badge. They let the press
people climb all over everywhere, so…
GN:
So did the—did your son have to write a newspaper article?
IM:
He wrote back and told—yeah. He wrote to the editor in Mankato and told him, “You
don’t know what you missed.” And he explained to him what it was like and stuff. So…
GN:
So did the paper back home talk about the work going on in that you and your husband
were—were you ever featured as local interest stories?
IM:
No, no. We—they just—we were just one of the—there was millions of people working
there, so they couldn’t cover everybody. So… But one of the guys—and I think as I
remember, I told—I’ve been trying to find this letter for you guys. One of the guys, I
think it was the electrical—rural electric—they were putting electric lines across Kansas
back in those days. And they were trying—he wrote an article in their paper, and my
sister sent it to me. He was saying that they were trying to raise their interest rates from
2% to 3%, and of all the money that was wasted in the space industry, it looks like they
could keep—give us more money to—for electrifying Kansas.
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So I wrote to him and told him how were helping—spinoffs from space, how we were
helping them. They had a packing plant, a meatpacking plant there, and we’d buy that
meat from Winn-Dixie for—I said—I told him how much the meat was that came from
that packing plant and different things. And I told him all the things—that you could fly
over and see where there was—in the trees and stuff that was having problems, where the
trees were dying because of this, where it would—and all that. So I wrote him a nice
letter. I wasn’t snarky or anything. And I said, “I hope in the future that you realize that
all this money that you think is being wasted in space is really helping Mankato, Kansas.”
So I never heard back from him. [laughs]
GN:
Maybe he got the message.
IM:
Yeah, I’m sure he did. I’m sure he did. And I gave the girls, too, a lot of things, spinoffs
from space, so they’ve got different things. So… When an ambulance picks you up, they
can contact the hospital, and they have all your vitals and have it in the operating room if
it’s necessary and everything ready to go from the little things that we invented there at
the—the spinoffs from space—that you didn’t have before. And just things like that. And
the satellites and all this kind of stuff that we use today for the wind, for the weather, for
things. So we did a lot of things besides putting men on the Moon. I even had a sister that
said she thinks that we’re having a different kind of weather because we messed around
and put people on the Moon up there and it upset everything. [laughs] So Homer had to
set her straight and tell her all the things that we were doing to help her. So… She’s gone
now. I can talk about her. [laughs]
01:20:44
[Return to Boeing]
GN:
So after Skylab, you were involved—and after Apollo, you were involved in these great
big efforts, and then you came back—you came—moved back to—
IM:
Seattle.
GN:
—Seattle.
IM:
Yeah.
GN:
And what were you transitioning to here in Seattle?
IM:
Homer was up here. He was working on the power plants that they have down in TriCities now. Or down in that area.
GN:
Oh, okay. Hanford, yeah.
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IM:
Atomic energy. He was working on that. And I was working in the—I couldn’t—they
didn’t have a North American office up here. They just had men that—one guy would fill
in for North American if they needed something. So then I went back to work for Boeing
and worked in there. And then I had a boss that was—there again, I had a real nice boss.
And he would keep us up to date on what was going on and such as that. And I went to—
I had a little bit of computer work then, where you could make graphs and stuff with the
computers and stuff. I’m just—the first little bit of computer work that I had. And so I
worked my way up until I got to be—I was pretty good at figures and stuff, and I got to
be a budget analyst for this guy.
And his big boss—my boss would go to a meeting, and he’d have all this down straight
and knew just exactly what was happening, how much this—if we had a new contract,
how much it was going to cost and all this kind of stuff. And so his boss decided that he
needed Iva, so he transferred me over there. I didn’t like him. [laughs] He was one—the
type that—“Make me look good.” And I said, “I won’t do it. What’s black-and-white is
black-and-white. If it doesn’t make you look good, that’s too bad.” But anyway, that—
when I retired, he said—he told everybody that, “She’s pretty sure in what she’s doing,
very independent on what’s she’s going to do and what she’s not going to do.” So…
[laughs]
GN:
And which Boeing office were you working in?
IM:
At the military end of it down there. I was at Plant 2 and the DNC, and then later I was
at—down by Kent in the Green River end of it. So…
GN:
And where were you—where did you end up moving when you came back out here to
Seattle? Where were you living?
IM:
When we came back the last time?
GN:
Yeah. Yeah.
IM:
We bought this house.
GN:
So this house?
IM:
We’ve lived here ever since.
GN:
And your husband was commuting all the way out to Hanford from—
IM:
No, no, no. See, they were doing—they were building the tanks and stuff in Seattle, and
so he just went back and forth. And then he went out on medical in ‘79, and I continued
to work until ‘87. So I was driving down there.
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GN:
And so what year did you move back out to Seattle that last time?
IM:
19—when’d we come up here? ‘70—[pauses]. When you get to be 95, you can’t
remember all these things. We came back up here in ‘70—no, I don’t know. ‘75. ’74, I
guess.
GN:
And the overall—it was a pretty rough time for Boeing overall up here. What was the
vibe like?
IM:
We were down—see, we were going to, I thought, come to Seattle in 1970 because our
oldest son was up here and they had a baby, our first grandchild. And I thought we were
going to come up here then. But my husband’s—he was so good in what he did that they
wouldn’t let him go. I think they kind of knew that things weren’t too well up here in
Seattle. So they kept us down there through—when Boeing was going downhill. So 1970,
I think, is when Boeing really went down, and so we were down there. We left and came
back up here in ‘73, ‘74, something like that.
GN:
And working on—at Boeing Military, what sort of projects were going on at that time?
IM:
Oh, the ALCM and the—they had a lot of secret stuff that I wasn’t in on, but they had—
the guys had to go in and change clothes and put on different uniforms and stuff into this
office and—but I wasn’t in any of that, so I don’t know what the secret deal was, but…
GN:
So is there—and you were at Boeing from—in that role from when you moved in the
mid-’70s until ‘87 when you retired?
IM:
Yes.
01:27:00
[Stories from moving cross country]
GN:
So I think we’ve more or less made it through your career.
IM:
[laughs] Think we got through the whole thing? I get—
GN:
So are there any—
IM:
I get kind of—get things—keeping the years straight and all this is kind of hard for me
to—
GN:
It’s perfectly all right. Are there any topics that we haven’t discussed that you really want
to talk about?
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IM:
[pauses] Not really. Except I didn’t tell you about the problems we had when we had that
jeep and that 27-foot trailer. [laughs]
GN:
Okay, I want to hear about this. Okay, tell me about this move.
IM:
Well, when we got to Winslow, Arizona, you know, two dumb kids, 20 years old when
we did all this, we had a brand-new jeep, a brand-new trailer. Who would ever think to
buy a spare tire for the trailer? Who would ever think? We had a spare tire for the jeep,
but that wouldn’t fit the trailer. So when we got to Winslow, Arizona, we blew a tire on
the trailer. And there was—Homer pulled the trailer over as far as he could off of the
road. And it was just almost dusk. And he said, “I’m going to run back to the town and
see if I can get a tire.” So he left me there with a flashlight, scared to death. I could hear
all those noises out in the desert, and I knew any minute those Indians were going to
come and scalp me because that’s all I ever knew about Indians. That’s the type of people
they were. Dumb Kansas kid.
And so pretty soon, here I had—it was getting a little more dusk and a little more dusk,
and I would stand out there with this flashlight. So a car drove up, and there was two
sailors and a girl in it. And they said, “Can we help you?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “We
blew a tire, and my husband’s gone back to see if he can get one.” And he said, “Would
you like us to stay here and help you?” I said, “I sure would.” So there—and then talking
to them, they had also had trouble in Winslow, Arizona. And they were from San Diego.
And all those three kids had had for—to eat that day was one grilled sandwich and a pint
of milk for the three of them. And I said, “If you stay here and keep the cars from hitting
this trailer, I’ll go inside and cook you something to eat.”
So I went in and fixed them something to eat. And I don’t know what I fixed, but
whatever. And then we had a little bank that we’d saved all of our dimes, and so I—after
Homer came out and they helped, he talked to them and everything. He said, “Why don’t
we give them some money?” So I shook a bunch of dimes out because all I had was big
money. I wasn’t going to give the big money. And I shook all these dimes out, as many
as I could shake out of this little bank, and gave it to them so they could buy gas to get on
to San Diego. And so they helped him get the trailer—and he pulled it with the jeep—off
of the road up into the—into a field across it so it was off of the road.
The next morning, we got in the jeep and went into the next town and couldn’t find a tire.
And so we were going by a trailer park, and I said, “Why don’t we drive in there and see
if there’s one in there?” And he said, “Oh, sure.” So anyway, he drove around, and we
saw a guy that had a trailer just like ours, and it had—he had it jacked up, so the tires
were off of the ground. And Homer told him our sad story, so he took off that wheel and
that tire and gave it to us so we could go back and put it on our trailer.
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And we got into—every town we’d come to, we’d stop and see if we could get a tire
somewhere. And we got into Victorville, and we found one. And a little bit past that, the
one that we got from the guy, it blew. And so then we got that one from Victorville and
put on. And we came up—they told us not to go over Oatman Pass with this because the
horseshoe turns were too sharp, and so we went up over Boulder Dam. And Homer said,
“If this—if that tire blows, jump.” And I thought, oh. If somebody just shot off a
firecracker, I would have been… [laughs]
But we made it through to Glendale, where he could go to—learn to go to school, and
that’s where we settled then for the—I’m backtracking.
01:32:16
[Aviation experiences and favorite aircraft]
GN:
Hm-hmm, hm-hmm [affirmative]. So I want to backtrack a little bit. So you started out
with this love of flying, and you learned to solo quickly. Did you ever pilot again?
IM:
No, I never did. I just—I was too involved in everything else. I never—Homer did. He
belonged to the Civil Air Patrol, and they would go out and search-and-rescue and stuff.
But he—and he took our oldest son up, and Steve said he can remember many times he
went with—in fact, when I was going to have the second son, he flew his dad and Steve
up to Mankato and leave Steve with my sister up there so that—and then he and his dad
came back and brought the plane back and landed, and then he was there when Doug was
born. So…
GN:
Did you ever get to go up with Homer?
IM:
I said—you know, this is the strangest thing. I don’t know why I never got to fly with
him. I just don’t know why. I guess we were too busy with—because, see, I was—
whenever he was out on a search mission, I couldn’t go, of course. But I could’ve—I
don’t know why. Steve went with him several times. I don’t know why I never—I just
don’t know why. Just too busy with everything else, I guess.
GN:
And what’s your favorite airplane?
IM:
Anything Boeing. I was going to go back to Kansas for a reunion here a few years back,
and they wanted me to fly in a DC-10, I think. I had to go into Dallas and then—it’s hard
to get to Mankato on a plane. So I said, “No, I’m not going to fly on one of those Douglas
planes. I’m absolutely not going to fly on it.” And they said, “Well, we can’t—” I said,
“Get me on a 7—a Boeing plane of some sort.” And they couldn’t do it, so I didn’t go. I
said—I just called them up back there, and I said, “I can’t come because I can’t get on an
airplane.” So… [laughs]
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GN:
Well, you know, Douglas is now part of Boeing.
IM:
Well, that was Boeing’s downfall for picking that up, so…
01:34:43
[Advice for young people and outstanding moments in career]
GN:
So one final thing. Do you have any final thoughts that you would like to leave for
students and future researchers who might hear this about—
IM:
Tell them to—kids, study. Go to school. You don’t necessarily have to go to college, but
take all the studies you can that will in—help you in the future. If you’re interested in it,
in flying at all, there are many ways to do it. Get in a flying club, or when you get older,
join the service so that they can teach you to fly. But make sure you go to school and
study.
GN:
And looking back on this long career that you’ve had, where it—you’ve gone through so
many different aspects of air and space in your career, what is your—do you have any
sort of outstanding moment that is your proudest moment?
IM:
I guess just being a part of putting the men on the Moon. That’s—that was many
moments, but I think the fact that I had a little bit of a thing to put those guys on the
Moon and go through all this space stuff that we did, I think that’s the most exciting,
proudest time in my life.
01:36:24
[Closing thoughts]
GN:
Iva, thank you so much for sitting down with us today and for talking. Hopefully it
wasn’t too terrifying of an experience.
IM:
[laughs] It’s just—it’s so hard to remember dates exactly—
GN:
It’s all right.
IM:
—and things like that.
GN:
You did wonderful.
IM:
So it just—it’s—I have typed all this up. I did the genealogy for Homer. I went—started
with him and went back seven generations. And I put all this about the problems we had
down in the desert with this flat tire and everything. That’s in there, too, so… And I did
all this before they had Ancestry.com. I had to do all the digging the hard way. So…
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GN:
My grandfather did a similar—I was the first grandchild on that side of the family, and so
when I was born, he had done a bunch of that—
IM:
That’s good. If you—see, if people—kids today don’t know about their past, really,
because they—maybe the parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents didn’t talk about
it, about their time in the war and stuff like that, because it was too hard for them or
something. And the families are so screwed up now, it just—I don’t know how you
would ever follow your genealogy in a lot of these places—these times because they have
two or three dads or they have—they don’t have—they don’t know where their dad is or
they don’t know who their grandparents were. It just would be too hard.
But if the kids would get interested in science and mathematics and stuff like that, I
think—really get into it, I think that would—and you don’t have to be a secretary. You
don’t—the ladies, the ones that built the spacesuits, the ladies were—made brassieres
before. So you never know what you’re going to find. So…
GN:
All right.
IM:
Is that enough of that?
GN:
I think we are [unintelligible].
PEDER NELSON:
GN:
I think Kelci has something.
Oh, yeah. Sorry. Kelci has a question.
KELCI HOPP:
Yeah. So at the beginning—I’m just kind of backtracking a little bit. If
you could verify when you were born, that would be—
IM:
When I was born?
KH:
Yes.
IM:
February 12th, 1924.
KH:
Perfect. Okay, thank you. And then a little earlier, when we were looking at your patches,
you had mentioned that there’s a story behind the beep-beep ones. Could you talk about
that?
IM:
[laughs] I’m not sure which Apollo it was, but I think it was 14 and 15. They had—
whenever—see, in the Apollo, they had drawers for everything. And so it—and when this
first one, they’d open a drawer and this patch would come out and say, “Beep-beep, beepbeep.” This was for the—was it the coyote that was chasing the—whatever it was. So the
next crew—when the crew that put all those beep-beep patches in there, when they went
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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up, then the crew that got the beep-beep patches put that other one in that said, “Beepbeep your ass.” [laughs] So every time they opened the drawer, that’s what they got.
KH:
And then if you could talk a little bit about your husband’s journey to get his diploma.
You had said that—
IM:
Oh, when he—see, he finished school—high school in—after his junior year, he asked
the superintendent, he said, “How many courses do I lack?” And he said, “One.” So he
stayed—his folks had moved to Wichita, but he stayed in Mankato and took that fall—
that summer and that fall the last course that he had to take—and I don’t remember, I
think it was mechanical drawing or something—so that he could get his diploma, get the
principal to verify the fact that he did graduate, so when he went down to Kansas City to
join the Navy, he had this, “I am a high school graduate.”
Before that, in order to be a Navy pilot—or a pilot, you had to have so much college.
Well, they had a new program called the V-12 program, where kids like Homer could—if
they graduated high, high school, then they could go and they would—they sent him to
Osceola—not Osceola—Ottawa University for some schooling and some flying at that
time before—then he went out on the other bases and stuff. So that’s how he got that.
KH:
You had mentioned that maybe a few years ago, he graduated?
IM:
Oh, that’s right. I got—
KH:
Yeah.
IM:
See, I got—so the fact that he didn’t get to graduate with his class, they—Kansas and I
suppose other states, too, had decided that they would find these guys that had gone off to
war that didn’t get to graduate, that they would have them come in and they would have a
graduation for them at the high school graduation. But he was sick and we couldn’t go, so
they sent the paperwork out to Seattle and then to Woodinville. And so then they called
and told him to come over to Woodinville and they would give him his diploma.
So we went over there and the—he didn’t know it. We didn’t know it. They didn’t tell us.
Just like here, I didn’t know what to expect from you. He just went in these everyday
clothes. And here the paper was there, the television was there, and so then it came out in
the paper, 58 years later, this gentleman got his high school diploma from Mankato.
01:43:09
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Metz, Iva L. (Fullerton), 1924-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Nunn, Geoff
Biographical Text
<p>Iva L. (Fullerton) Metz worked as a secretary with the U.S. Navy, North American Aviation, and at Cape Canaveral during the Apollo and Skylab programs.</p>
<p>Metz was born on February 12, 1924, on a farm about 10 miles outside of Mankato, Kansas to John and Jeanette Fullerton. Her father was a farmer and her mother stayed at home taking care of their six children, four girls and two boys. Her mother passed away at 37 years old when the children were little. Attending Montrose School, Metz describes her journey to school: “[we] rode horses to school, and – all four girls on one horse. That was our bus.” She attended the same school, elementary through high school, in Montrose, Kansas. By 1942 she was teaching in a one-room schoolhouse east of Mankato with nine students all in different grades.</p>
<p>Metz became interested in flying as a young girl when her father took her to an airshow in Concordia, Kansas, about 30 miles southeast of their farm. Once living on her own and teaching school, Metz began flying lessons. After only five hours of instruction, she soloed an Aeronca Chief, a side-by-side, two-seat, 65-hp light airplane. She was the first female pilot to solo from the local field. Homer L. Metz, who would later become her husband, was also learning to fly at the same airfield. Iva was only able to take a few more lessons before the airplane was needed to train male pilots preparing for World War II. After Homer joined the U.S. Navy at the end of 1942, Iva moved to Wichita, Kansas in 1943 to attend ground school at Wichita University. They were married in 1944.</p>
<p>When Homer was transferred to Banana River Naval Air Station in Florida, Iva went to work for the Navy where she controlled the secret documents used to train the pilots on radar. After the end of the war, the couple remained at Banana River to help deactivate the air station. The couple moved to Glendale, California in 1946 and Iva found a billing clerk job at Andrew Jergens Company. In 1950, after completing school and having their first child, Steve, the family moved to Wichita, Kansas. Homer went to work for the Boeing Company and Iva for Cessna Aircraft Company as a payroll clerk. The family remained in Wichita until Homer was transferred to Seattle, Washington in 1958. The family, now numbering four with the birth of Douglas, put their furniture in storage and moved to Seattle. However, not long after that, Boeing sent them to Hurlburt Field near Fort Walton, Florida. Iva found a job at Boeing as the secretary for the manager of the facilities. She was at Hurlburt when Alan Shepard became the first American into space on May 5, 1961.</p>
<p>In June 1961, the family was transferred back to Seattle where Homer went to school to learn more about electrical system and electronics. After five months of training they were sent to Vandenberg Air Force Base in California with Boeing. Iva found a secretarial job at Autonetics, a division of North American Aviation which was designing guidance systems and involved with Minuteman Missile testing. She became one of the first operators of the 1-A Data System that provided direct communications with all North American facilities. The A-1 used telephone lines and a punch tape to send the messages quickly and confidentially.</p>
<p>In 1966 Homer transferred to Cape Canaveral with the Saturn V and Minuteman programs and Iva transferred to a North American operation at the Cape as well. Here she was working with various engineering groups who were working on Apollo and the Saturn second stage. She typed critical design documents, which had to be perfect to ensure the safety of the astronauts. The astronauts were very appreciative, frequently sending gifts as a way to say “…thank you for not killing me.” She became very close to all the astronauts over her time at the Cape.</p>
<p>A vivid and tragic memory was the death of Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee in the Apollo 1 fire in January 1967. Iva wore a collar pin every day that s</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Metz_Iva
OH_Metz_Iva_transcription
Title
A name given to the resource
Iva Metz oral history interview
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Iva Metz and interviewer Geoff Nunn, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, November 1, 2019.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Iva Metz is interviewed about her life and her secretarial career in the aviation and aerospace industries from the 1940s through the 1980s. She discusses her professional experiences working for the U.S. Navy, the Cessna Aircraft Company, the Boeing Aircraft Company, and North American Aviation. The interview focuses in particular on her time at NASA and her involvement with the space program. Iva also touches on her husband’s (Homer) career in the military and with Boeing on various missile and rocket programs.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
<p>Introduction and personal background -- Flight training -- Teaching career, ground school, and husband’s Navy service -- Life in Banana River, Florida during World War II -- End of World War II and move to California -- Metzes’ careers at Boeing -- Career at North American -- Memories of Apollo 1 and Apollo 7 -- Memories of Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 -- Experiences with Skylab and other space program memories -- Return to Boeing -- Stories from moving cross country -- Aviation experiences and favorite aircraft -- Advice for young people and outstanding moments in career -- Closing thoughts</p>
Date
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2019-11-01
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boeing Company
Cessna Aircraft Company
Guided missiles--Testing
Metz, Homer L., 1924-2009
Metz, Iva L. (Fullerton), 1924-
North American Aviation
Project Apollo (U.S.)
Skylab Program
United States. National Aeronautics and Space Administration
United States. Navy
Women air pilots
World War, 1939-1945
Coverage
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California
Florida
Kansas
United States
Washington (State)
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 43 min., 9 sec.) : digital
Language
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English
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Rights
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In copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/369bcc03be04e7fa19c1387cdf42a3bc.mp4
ef1520e5b61855914a12865a367f1775
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/a3adaec30149d9215523462e028cbcf9.pdf
fbe5e3f3a664c8f96569c6bae910654a
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Sydney Baker
Interviewed by: John Barth
Date: August 29, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Engineer Sydney Baker is interviewed about his life and his decade-spanning career in the
aviation industry. He discusses his work at Vickers-Armstrongs in the 1940s and 1950s and his
subsequent engineering jobs with Canadair and the Boeing Company. Projects discussed include
the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, the AOA (Airborne Optical
Adjunct) program, and guided missile development. He also shares his experiences as a Museum
of Flight docent and his restoration work on the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. Other topics
discussed include his school years in England during World War II, his service in the Parachute
Regiment, and his restoration of vintage sports cars.
Biography:
Sydney J. Baker was an aviation engineer who worked for Vickers-Armstrongs, Canadair, and
the Boeing Company.
Sydney James Baker was born in London, England on January 26, 1930 to Sydney Baker (a
bunting factory owner) and Esme Perrett (a shopkeeper’s assistant). When he was young, his
family moved to Surrey, England. Nearby was a Vickers-Armstrongs airdrome as well as a
racetrack, which inspired an interest in aviation and cars. During World War II, his father
volunteered for the Royal Observer Corps. Baker would help his father and the other men
identify aircraft carrying out bombing missions against England. At about age seven, he left
home to attend Sevenoaks grammar school, a boarding school in Kent, England. At the age of
12, he received his glider’s license. He became an instructor at age 14, helping to teach injured
fighter pilots how to fly again.
After graduating from Sevenoaks, Baker returned to Surrey. Wanting a hands-on job, he joined
Vickers-Armstrongs as an apprentice, where he specialized in making wind tunnel models. He
attended the local college at the same time. Once he finished his college coursework, he was
drafted into the British Army and served with the Parachute Regiment. Once he had completed
his military service, he returned to Vickers-Armstrongs as a flight test engineer but now located
in Adelaide, Australia. His projects included the Supermarine Scimitar and developing guided
missiles for the Weapons Research Establishment in Australia.
When his projects in Australia had concluded, he returned to England, but did not want to stay
there permanently. Wanting to relocate to Canada, Baker accepted a position with Canadair,
where he worked on the Sparrow missile. When the program was canceled in 1959, he accepted
a job offer with the Boeing Company and moved to Seattle, Washington. Among the projects he
worked on during his career at Boeing were the CIM-10 Bomarc missile, the Minuteman missile,
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, and the AOA (Airborne Optical
Adjunct) program.
Following his retirement from Boeing in 1996, Baker became a docent for The Museum of
Flight. He later joined the Museum’s aircraft restoration team and was instrumental in helping to
restore the tail section of T-Square 54, the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. His love of cars also
continued throughout his life; he was an amateur car racer and restored old Porsches.
Baker married his wife Janet Keast, a nurse, in 1953 and they had two children, Mary and John.
Baker died in September 2022.
Biographical sketch derived from interview, information provided by interviewee, and obituary.
Interviewer:
John Barth is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps, which he joined in 2016. He
has over 30 years of experience in the aerospace industry, including manufacturing, supervision
and management, and research and development.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences ........................... 7
Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army ................................. 11
Guided missile testing in Australia ............................................................................................... 14
Career with Canadair .................................................................................................................... 16
Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA
(Airborne Optical Adjunct) ........................................................................................................... 17
Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work ...................................... 23
Achievements and notable moments from his career ................................................................... 28
Advice for young people ............................................................................................................... 29
Car restoration and sports racing .................................................................................................. 30
Legacy of restoration work ........................................................................................................... 31
Stories from Army service ............................................................................................................ 32
Side projects at Boeing ................................................................................................................. 33
Final questions .............................................................................................................................. 34
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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Sydney Baker
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
JOHN BARTH:
My name is John Barth, and it’s 10:50 a.m. on August 29th, 2019, and I
am here—we are at The Museum of Flight in Tukwila, Washington, and we’re here to
interview Syd Baker. Thank you for taking the time to participate in the Museum’s Oral
History Program. Sydney, can I get you to state your full name and spell it?
SYDNEY BAKER:
K-E-R.
Yes, it’s Sydney. That’s S-Y-D-N-E-Y, James, J-A-M-E-S, Baker, B-A-
JB:
Can you give us some background about your family, your grandparents, your parents,
what their occupations were?
SB:
Yes. My grand—my maternal side came from Somerset in England, and they were
seafaring people. My uncle, for example, served three years before the mast, which
sounds very glamorous and was damned hard, I guess. My father’s side, he came from a
fairly poor family in—from London, center of London, and he was adopted when he was
about 20, or less than that, by a very rich family. Maybe because—he always said in jest,
I think—because they used to go cruising on the Thames with their motorboat and they
got him to take the weeds off the propeller. So he used to dive overboard and untangle the
propeller for them. I’m sure he was joking.
So anyway, he—as a profession, he then joined the Army very early—that’s during
World War I—as a private and went through the trenches, went through all the horrible
battles. And just, as usual, stuff—he wouldn’t talk about it much. But he earned the Croix
de Guerre and came out a major. And he—well, very—I’m very proud of him. He was a
very fine gentleman. And after the war, he set up a small business to earn his own money
and—as a machine shop. That’s a—people who made bunting and flags. So it wasn’t a
mechanical machine shop. It was a sewing machine shop.
At that time, he built a house in a place called Surrey, which is about 20 miles south of
London. And by that time, my mother had had myself, me, and I was born in London in a
place called Herne Hill, which makes me a genuine Cockney because I was born within
the sound of Bow Bells, which makes me a genuine Cockney.
So we moved to Guildford in—I mean Surrey, south of London, into a place called East
Horsley, into a beautiful house. This was in 1932. And this—Weybridge was close by
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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and near this town called East Horsley. East Horsley was a very small village, and it was
eight miles from Weybridge. And at Weybridge was some very interesting activities. In
1920, they built a racetrack, which was three and a half miles around. So it was the first
purpose-built racetrack in the world for building—for testing cars, automobiles, of
course. It was a banked circuit. And in the middle of that, they had an airdrome, as they
called it, and in that—on that airdrome was Vickers-Armstrongs. And VickersArmstrongs, of course, built ships—that is, battleships, cruise liners. So they were a
heavy engineering company. And as a side issue, they built Spitfires and Wellingtons. So
that’s where I eventually joined up as an apprentice, but that’s a story later.
After a very happy childhood where I got to play with all kinds of interesting animals, big
dogs and things like that, I got into the usual trouble that kids get into of—I loved
working with the laborers who were building houses, and I used to climb up on the roof
and drink tea with them and have lots of social activities with these laborers, who I found
very entertaining. And my mother didn’t mind, other—in spite of the fact they climbed
up on these roofs, along all the scaffolding and stuff. But nobody seemed to care in those
days. They just let the kids run around.
Oh, in fact, one day I had a visit from the police, and the police said that I was—I had
broken into a house and written graffiti on the wall and would my mother get me down
here, and he wanted to chew me out right away. And he—my mother said, “Well, he’s in
bed.” And he—the doctor—the policeman said, “Well, is he sick?” And she said, “No.
He’s only four years old.” So the police just, “Oh. Sorry about that.”
So at this time, of course, my father was doing quite well with his machine shop business,
and I used to go up and visit him and with—and talk to the girls who were the machinists
and so on. So I loved talking to people who worked with their hands. It was just a natural
thing for me to do. As I got older, of course, I went with my father to Brooklands and
watched the motor racing, what they called club racing. And my—the person next door,
who was a commercial butcher, had an M3—M. G. Magnette, and he used to take me
around the circuit. It was extremely bumpy and very, very frightening but a very
wonderful experience. So we used to go around the track and used to reach speeds up
over 130 miles an hour on this bumpy circuit. So it was very exciting.
So that got me hooked on automobiles, and we watched—as I got to be seven, I was sent
away to boarding school to a place called East Grinstead, which was a stately home,
typical of an English boarding school. We had a very strict disciplinarian who was a
German, ironically. This was in 1938. But I had a great time after I got over the shock of
being wrenched away from my parents. The reason I was, of course, because my father
being a major, was determined my mother wasn’t going to spoil me at home, so—she did
anyway, but—but I, of course, enjoyed coming home for holidays.
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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00:07:29
[Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences]
SB:
And when it came to the war effort, 1939 when war is declared, the German headmaster
became sort of under suspicion because—just because he was a German. It really wasn’t
very fair, but that’s the way it was, I’m afraid. So I left that school—it was time for me to
leave anyway—and went back to Surrey. And by then, of course, the war had been
declared. And I went to a school down in Somerset away from the bombs, so—of course
this was during the Phoney War where there was no bombs, but we were evacuated to
Somerset anyway.
And again, I got entangled with aviation because I was right beside the—a naval training
school and they were doing dive-bombing practice. So I used to go for walks with the—I
had to walk the headmaster’s dog. I didn’t have to, but this was a way of getting out of
doing other, more difficult tasks, so… I always had an angle to get off things I didn’t
want to do. So anyway, we were walking these dogs one day, and three of these divebombers dived right into the ground where we were. And we ran over, and it was a
horrible site watching these people burn to death. So that was my first experience with
death. Not at all pleasant, but it made me realize that life wasn’t all fun.
But on the other hand, of course, we found a barn with some beautiful smells coming out
of it, so we got into this barn and found barrels on racks on the walls. And we got a stone
and we pushed one of the plugs in these barrels, and out poured this gorgeous-smelling
stuff. We got a cup that was nearby and started drinking this stuff. It turns out it was hard
cider. So pretty soon we were so drunk we couldn’t walk. The dog was drunk, too.
[laughs] So after about four hours, they—the police found us pretty well unconscious on
the floor. And, of course, we all got hell for that. So that was sort of the things I used to
do, which wasn’t—not very good.
By then, of course, the war—this is 1939, 1940. And in 1940 my father volunteered to
join the Observer Corps. And you got to remember, of course, that the radar only looked
out over the coast. And the later radars were actually able to see out over the French coast
and see the German formations forming and watched them come across. And they got a
pretty good idea where the targets were going to be because they could tell what part of
England they were heading for. But once they crossed the coast, the radar coverage
ceased to exist. So the only way they tracked those formations was with the people in
these Observer Corps posts. An Observer Corps post was a ring of sandbags, and in the
center of the ring there was a theodolite and on the—mounted on a map of the local area.
So the mission of the Observers was to look at these airplanes with—through this
telescope and count the number of airplanes and report in what angle they were from
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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your position. Now, of course, there were enough of the Observers that they were able to
establish a track and also the altitude of the airplanes. And my job was to tell these old
guys, who couldn’t see very well, what kind of airplanes they were, which was very
rewarding. So I can claim that I was in the Battle of Britain. So that was my participation
in the Battle of Britain.
Of course, when I went to boarding school in—grammar school, rather—I went to a place
called Sevenoaks in Kent. Ironically, the place—the reason my parents chose that was
because they had very good air raid shelters, even though it was on the main route
between France where the enemy aircraft flew over on their way to bomb London. So it
was more a procession of enemy airplanes flying over the school, mainly during the night
during the Blitz. And, of course, randomly they’d drop bombs around the school. Not
because they were aiming at the school. Because they were under attack by fighters or
whatever. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the—World War II to me as a young
boy—and I was so fortunate not to lose any of my loved ones—was one big party. I had
an absolutely wonderful time. And I know that’s terrible to say, but being in London
during the war was a wonderful time to be in London—I mean, in England. Everybody
was pulling in the same direction, there was no strikes, and everybody had a common
purpose and pulled in the same direction. It was absolutely fantastic.
Anyway, back to Sevenoaks, where I was in school. Like I said, we watched the bombers
go over at night. I was on the fifth floor up on the top, looking out over the Kent
countryside, so we were quite elevated from the surrounding country. They had a really
good view of the airplanes coming. And very occasionally, we used to get a large bomb
dropped nearby. And the most exciting one was that they dropped a land mine, which
was a parachute mine that landed about five miles away. And these were designed for
blast, so it blew out all the windows in the school and so I had glass all over my bed and
that stuff. So that was the only thing that I experienced any sort of battle damage, if you
want to call it that.
Well, later on, of course, the Germans got more sophisticated and we started getting V-1s
coming over, the cruise missiles. And they had, of course, a very distinctive noise. They
sounded like a motorcycle. And, of course, if you go on the gallery by the—on the
Museum outside here, you can see a V-1 cruise missile hanging from the—overhead.
And below that, there is an actual V-1 engine and some very good diagrams that show
you how this pulsejet works. Basically just takes ram air in from the front through a
series of louvers and mixes it with gasoline that’s sprayed into the chamber, and inside
the chamber there’s a sparkplug that sparks all the time. And when the fuel-air ratio
reaches a stoichiometric ratio of 15-to-1, the fuel burns. Some people say it explodes. It
doesn’t really explode; it burns rapidly. And a pulse goes out the tailpipe. And it has to
go out the tailpipe because the pressure rise causes the shutters at the front to shut, so the
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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only place that air can go is out the tailpipe. And that causes the thrust. And as the thrust
goes out the tail, it sucks more air in from the front as the shutters open, and the cycle
starts over again.
So the cycle, as I said, sounds like a motorcycle, about—[makes sound effect]—like that.
Now, the secret was, of course, they fired 3,800 of these things over England, over
Southern England, so we got our fair share of these things that were going over most of
the day and night. But we carried on with our schoolwork, and we just ignored them until
one of the engines stopped. And then as soon as the engine stopped, we’d dive under our
desks, because you knew once the engine stopped the missile was programmed to go into
a dive and explode. And this thing had a ton of war—ton of TNT in the nose. It made a
pretty good bang.
So having survived that, then later on we were subject to V-1 anti—ballistic missiles,
which were a whole different kettle of fish. I should back up a little and say the cruising
speed of the V-1s was 450 miles an hour and the top speed of a Spitfire was about 400
miles an hour. So the only way any of our airplanes could catch these things was in a
dive. So what the British did was have what they call layered defense. So from the
Channel to London, they had an altered balloon barrage, fighters, balloon barrage,
fighters, and eventually, of course, the missiles, the ones that got through got to London.
So we were in the zone where there were fighters, not balloons. So it was very exciting to
see these fighters diving because that’s the only way they could catch these missiles and
strafe them in the air and try and bring them down that way. Very occasionally you’d see
one tip a wing over, but that was not very common. So again, if—it was a most exciting
time, of course. It was like a cricket match. Everybody cheered when one went down and
so on.
Back to the V-1s. These, of course, were supersonic, and nobody, literally, had seen or
heard anything that was supersonic. So it was very mysterious because the bomb went off
with a huge explosion, and then a few seconds later you could hear the missile coming
with a large boom. And, of course, this was a supersonic boom. We couldn’t really figure
out what that second noise was. Most people thought it was an echo or something. But we
had some very smart kids in our class, and we determined that it was the—the missile
went up to 75 miles, and when it reentered, it actually caused a pressure wave in the air
and the pressure wave was what we were hearing.
So we also had kids that were smart enough to—and, of course, the general subject was,
well, of course, these missiles eventually will be used to go in—to the Moon and outer
space because they didn’t need atmosphere. I remember distinctly one of our kids, who
was much brighter than I was, started talking about ion propulsion. Nobody could
understand what he was talking about. And, of course, we couldn’t conceive that
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electrons coming out of the back of a missile would generate enough thrust for
[unintelligible] to propel it through the atmosphere, not realize—remembering, of course,
there was no air or no resistance. So we had some pretty good kids in our school.
JB:
How old were you at that age?
SB:
I was 14.
JB:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SB:
In parallel with this, of course, this school was focused on providing aircrew for the RAF.
So it was an RAF school. Each school—each college had a goal to provide service people
for the war. So we used to get visited by war heroes, primarily RAF fighter pilots, who
came and told us what it was like and so on. In exchange, we used to go to the RAF bases
as a member of the Air Training Corps. And at the air bases, we were taught to fly gliders
because the gliders was a primary way of teaching a pilot the initial way to fly an
airplane. So I got my glider’s license when I was 12 and became an instructor when I was
14.
As the war progressed, we got very severely injured pilots because the Spitfire had an
unfortunate characteristic—[clears throat]—excuse me—of having the fuel tank over the
legs of the pilot. So almost all the pilots were very severely burned when they bailed out.
So the ones that were—and by another strange coincidence, the school at East Grinstead
became the burn center, where I was—I was at school. So that became the first of the
burn treatment centers for these badly burned pilots. So as I said, a lot of them came back
to their air bases and wanted to continue flying, and many of them only had one eye
because they were—they had lost their eye when they were burned. And so I had the
pleasure of teaching these people how to judge distances when they landed these gliders.
They found it extremely difficult to judge the height. So I found that extremely
rewarding, of course, as a 14-year-old teaching these 23-year-olds how to fly airplanes
again. So that was one of my more rewarding things I did when I was 14 and 15.
JB:
When was your first flight?
SB:
My first—
JB:
You had a license at 12 and you were an instructor at 14.
SB:
Yeah. My first flight was when I was 11 or 12, my first solo flight in a glider. This was—
I found it instinctive. It wasn’t at all difficult. They taught you to fly by putting you on
top of a hill and balancing the airplane against the wind on the ground. That’s how you
learned to control the airplane. And afterwards, after that, they got a bungee cord, and
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they catapulted you down the hill, and you did a glide down the hill if you could control
the airplane.
Then they hooked you to a barrage balloon winch. And they had a long runway, and they
towed you up on a winch, and you got up to about 3,000 feet. After a while, they—if it
was windy, they’d play you like a kite. The airplane would just go up like flying a kite.
So we got up to about 3,000 feet and cast off and we found thermals and we’d stay out
for a couple of hours. And we were fortunate enough to fly at a place called Dunstall—
[clears throat]—excuse me—where they had—the wind used to come across the ridge, so
we did ridge soaring. And you could virtually stay up forever just by going up and down
on the ridge like birds did. But eventually you had to come down and land and give
somebody else a turn. So that was my initial gliding experience or flying experience.
00:23:03
[Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army]
SB:
But, of course, by then I was still at grammar school in Sevenoaks. I graduated from
grammar school and went back to my home in Surrey and had to decide what I was going
to do with my life. I decided I didn’t want to go to college. I was more of a hands-on
person. And besides, I was dumb as a rock anyway. So I told my father I wanted to
become an aviation apprentice at Vickers-Armstrongs, which, as I say, was just eight
miles down the road. So there it was ideal for me because it was a four-year graduation—
graduate program, where you spent two days going through the factory learning
engineering skills and three days a week—because it was a five-day week—going to
college, the local college. So I went to college some of the time and went through the
factory the rest of the time.
And, of course, you had to specialize as an apprentice in a particular skill. So I chose to
be—because I enjoyed making model aircraft, I signed up for the wind tunnel
department. So I graduated from wind tunnel—building wind tunnel models into
designing the models and instrumenting them. So I became an instrumentation specialist
in wind tunnel models. And that was extremely interesting because Vickers, as I say, was
a heavy-industry company, so not only did we test out wind tunnel models of airplanes
but also their cruise liners that they were building—by then it was after the war—and
they found that the smoke plumes from the funnels of the ships were going down over the
decks and upsetting the passengers. So we actually did plume tests of smoke going down
over the decks of ships.
I also at that time realized that some of the bridges were becoming subject to
aerodynamic loads, which caused them to sway. And, of course, that’s what happened to
the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. So we put bridges in the wind tunnel and determined how
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you could modify them to stop them swaying in a wind. All these things where
fascinating, you know, and different than just airplanes.
One of the jobs I had to do was to minimize the drag on an Aston Martin sports racing
car, which was going to go and compete at Le Mans, which, of course, was right up my
street. So I got the [unintelligible] of reducing the drag on this Le Mans race car. It
fortunately won its class in Le Mans, so as an award, I was sent down to Goodwood, and
I got to drive this Le Mans-winning car, which again, of course, was right up my street.
So I was very lucky in my life to get all these little perks.
So on graduation, I was—having graduated after four years of this college and education,
went to the British—I was drafted in the National Service of the Army. Because of my
glider experience, I volunteered to go in the Glider Regiment in the Army. I wanted to
fly, but the Air Force, you had to sign up for five years. I didn’t want to sign up in the
military for five years, so I chose the lesser and just signed up for the Army for two years
in the Glider Regiment.
Well, the week I had just signed up for the Glider Regiment, it was disbanded and
everybody was automatically transferred from the gliders to the Parachute Regiment. So I
thought, oh, darn, I didn’t really mean to sign up for the Parachute Regiment. But that’s
how I found myself as a parachutist. So I went through parachute training and—pretty
hard training at Aldershot, where we had to jump through ditches and climb over
boulders and all that stuff. And finally got my—I jumped out of balloons, parachuted
with a static line straight down onto balloons, and that worked okay.
Going on my ninth jump out of a Handley Page Hastings, I broke both my legs in a
high—very high wind, which was a bit of luck because I didn’t have to do any
parachuting anymore. So I was transferred to a regiment that developed experimental
parachutes and experimental parachute loads. We dropped heavy loads out of airplanes,
which was a lot more fun than jumping out yourself. So we pushed things like Land
Rovers and jeeps full of classified radar equipment and things like this to see if they
survived the shock.
One monumental occasion, we actually wanted to—the Army wanted to go for the
heaviest drop in the world, so we persuaded the Americans to loan us a C-119, which was
a Flying Boxcar, a twin-engine, twin-boom machine that had a removable tail on it. So
we got—the heaviest load the Army could think of was a D4 Cat bulldozer, which
weighed 20,000 pounds. So I thought, that should do it. So we mounted this bulldozer on
a pallet. All the loads were mounted on pallets. And on the top of the bulldozer, they put
boxes full of parachutes. We had sixteen 60-foot parachutes. And we put it into this C119. And the crew had to get permission from the Pentagon to do this because it was over
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the most—max gross weight of the airplane. So they said, “Okay, just have the pilot and
copilot, and if one of the engines even splutters, we’re going to bail out.” Because that’s
what the Pentagon told them to do.
Well, so we went down over Salisbury Plain in our Land Rovers, and this airplane came
staggering along at about 10,000 feet. At the appropriate time, the drag chute came out of
this thing, was pulled out the back of the airplane. And we—“Well, that’s good. That
worked at least, and the airplane didn’t crash.” And then horror, parachute came off—
out, and it immediately plucked off like a petal of a flower because one parachute was
trying to take 20,000 pounds of load through one shackle. Then another parachute came
out and it broke off. So it came down like this, and all 16 parachutes were floating around
in the air like this, and the bulldozer went zonk, into the ground. And, of course,
completely demolished. Naturally, of course, being in the Army, they chose a bulldozer
that had just been through refurbishment.
So that was one of the funs I had in the Army. After that, we did parachute drops over the
Russian border. And for that, we had to fly below radar altitude across the North Sea and
then pop up and drop parachutes along the Russian front. This was just to find out how
soon they saw us coming. So it was just to tweak the Russians a little bit, that’s all. And
to do that, we used the—I flew with the Americans, so I got really used to the American
Army and had a wonderful time with them. But that’s a whole ‘nother series of stories. I
think I need a rest. [laughs]
JB:
So what do you think about your military service? Was it a positive experience?
SB:
Absolutely. Everybody should do it.
JB:
Everyone.
SB:
Everybody. They need the discipline. And I met the most wonderful people. I was—I
didn’t graduate as an officer or anything. I was with a bunch of—well, coalminers. And
they were tough buggers. I mean, really tough. I mean, I was just a wimp. And I
remember distinctly one of the really tough guys was sitting on his bed darning his socks,
and he dropped his needle and bent—knelt down to pick it up. And we had coco-mats on
the floor. And the needle stuck up [unintelligible], and it went right into his knee. I mean,
right into his knee. So he was in agony, and, of course, everybody else was running
around trying to get the medics and so on. So I knelt down and threaded the needle and
pulled it out. It was sort of like a mouse and a bear—and a lion, you know. So from there
on, this great big—great big guy followed me around like a puppy dog. It was—[laughs]
I was his mascot.
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So yeah, I enjoyed the military service. I made a habit of enjoying everywhere I lived and
everywhere I worked. There’s no point in not enjoying it.
00:32:45
[Guided missile testing in Australia]
SB:
So after being discharged from the Army, I went back to Vickers-Armstrongs because
they guarantee you a job, and got a job as a flight test engineer. And before I went into
the Army, I told Vickers I wanted to emigrate to Canada. So I told—when I went back to
Vickers as a flight test engineer, I worked on the Scimitar, a Navy attack fighter, and got
to go out on the Mediterranean on flights for the Scimitar. I watched them landing over
the deck and so on. That was a lot of fun.
I told them, “I still want to emigrate to Canada.” And they said, “Well, we’re setting up a
community in Australia because we’ve got a contract to do some guided missile testing
in—at Woomera in Australia.” Did I—was I interested in going to Australia instead of
Woomera—I mean, instead of Canada? So by a strange coincidence, I had just married an
Australian, my wife, in 1953, who was a qualified—a nurse, qualified nurse, an RN, and
also a secretary, qualified secretary for a law firm.
So I said, “Well, yes, I would be delighted to go to Australia. My wife happens to be a
company secretary and a qualified nurse, so…” “Oh, well,” they said, “We’ll employ her
as well.” So my wife became the company CEO’s secretary, and I became one of the
junior engineers. We flew out to Australia within three weeks of us being married on a
Handley Page Hastings full of guided missiles. And because it was an air—a military
airplane, we flew—it took us seven days to get to Australia. We flew to Egypt. They
wouldn’t let us fly over India, so we had to fly all around India. And we had to
experience—it was like the guy who left the cockpit window open and the monsoon rain
came through and flooded the autopilot. So we were stuck in Ceylon for two days, that
sort of stuff.
So we finally made it to Australia to Adelaide, where I joined the Weapons Research
Establishment at—in Adelaide. And flew up to—got a nice house in Adelaide and flew
up to Woomera every week on Monday and back every Friday for three years, doing
various kind of missile drops and firing different kinds of missiles, one of which, of
course, was launched out of a B-29, which was a cruise missile. It was dropped out of the
aft bomb bay of the B-29, and we tracked it and see how it performed. And it was a onethird-scale model of a cruise missile.
And there were other missiles that were launched off Canberra bombers and so on. And I
was on the ground looking through this Canberra missile launch through a Scandi, a
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Swiss photo-optic telescope taking pictures of this thing. And lo and behold, behind this
airplane was a UFO. And I thought like, you know, I don’t believe what I’m seeing. So
this thing was—maneuvered behind the airplane back and forward, and it was very hard
to tell how high it was because I had no idea how big it was. So I thought, that’s really
weird. So after thinking about it a long time, in the mess that evening, I sat down and
started to tell my buddy across the table what I had seen, and one of the base security
officers said, “Please don’t say anymore. Just come and see me in the morning, would
you?” So I said, “Sure.”
So I went to his office in the morning and said—he said, “Would you please tell me
exactly what you saw and tell me what it did?” So I said, “Sure.” So I described the
maneuvers this thing went through. And he said, “Well, how big was it?” I said, “I have
no idea because I couldn’t really judge the size of it. It was—it appeared to be about the
same size as a Canberra, but it didn’t really change radically in size when it went up and
down, so it was hard to tell.” He said, “Well, I should tell you that your description of the
track of this thing is exactly the same as our radar followed it.” So I thought, well, that’s
really weird. But he said, “I would ask you not to speak to anybody about it.” And he
made me sign an Official Secrets Act. And that was that. And I never really have talked
about it because when I do everybody thinks I’m a bit of a nut. [laughs] So that was a
peculiar phenomenon.
Anyway, so having had a wonderful time in Australia, the contract finally finished after
going through four different kinds of missile testing, and I wanted desperately to stay in
Australia because I liked it so much. But I was unable to find a job, so we were sent back
to England on a cruise ship as an award for being—having stayed behind to close up the
company.
JB:
What was your life like in Australia? What was so attractive about it?
SB:
The freedom of speech, the freedom of choice, of dress, and everybody was very relaxed.
You know, nothing bothered anybody. It was, “Good on you, mate,” that sort of attitude.
They were just great people. And they still are.
I think they’ve got the right priorities in life. They’ve got—they live outdoor a lot
because they’re outdoor people. They like hiking and swimming and fishing and those
things. They’ve got the most wonderful healthcare system. We went back afterwards and
lived there for quite a while after I retired. In fact, we still own a condominium there on
Sydney Harbour. So we spent a lot of time in Australia. Up until this year, we went back
every year for two months when the weather was bad here. So we joined the National
Health System and so on, and it’s absolutely magnificent. And it’s very inexpensive, and
it covers everybody for everything. My wife fell over and broke her shoulder, and they
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covered everything for nothing. So I’m very impressed with the Australians, the
Australian way of life.
JB:
Are you a citizen there?
SB:
Yes, I am. I’m a dual citizen. I only recently became a citizen, though. Every time I went
back through the customs, they used to say, “Why the hell aren’t you a citizen? You
belong here.” So I used to say, “I just haven’t got around to it.” Because the—I didn’t
qualify for—I had to—you had to be a resident there for three years, and all I ever did
was visit. So after going backwards and forwards so long, they finally said, “Oh, to hell
with it. You’ve become a citizen anyway.” So they’ve got that sort of attitude, you know.
They’re quite prepared to bend the so-called laws.
So I really love—and then when they come here, they’re outstanding in the way they
behave and ask questions. They’re very, very curious people. They want to learn all the
time. That’s why I like them. Anyway, so…
00:40:41
[Career with Canadair]
JB:
So you went back to Vickers.
SB:
Yes, I went back to Vickers. And then after that, I told them, “Well, I still want to
emigrate because I can’t stand living in England. It’s too constrained and too narrowminded and, you know, so…” By then, of course, I had bought a house and had a young
baby, a daughter, and I was all set to stay there. My parents were, of course, delighted
that I would come back to England to stay there. And they were horrified when I decided
I was going to go to—emigrate to Canada. Because I saw a job in Canada, Canadair in
Montreal. So I immigrated to Montreal and worked on the Arrow—the Sparrow missile
for the Avro Arrow fighter, interceptor/fighter.
So after about six months—my wife stayed behind in England, sold the house, and came
over and joined me with the young daughter. And we rented a house in a local area. My
wife wanted to join the natives and didn’t want to live in Montreal, where everybody
spoke English. So we moved out to a French-speaking community, which was typical of
my wife, you know. It was really a ridiculous thing to do because they hated English
people. Because in those days, de Gaulle was going through Montreal stirring up all kinds
of hatreds about how the bloody English had screwed them and wouldn’t let them speak
English—I mean, wouldn’t let them speak French. And he was just stirring up
nationalism. And they wanted Canada to break—I mean, Quebec to—excuse me—
Quebec to break away from the rest of Canada and become an independent country,
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which was really stupid. So there was a separatist unit. And they did all kinds of things
like bombing mailboxes and all kinds of terrorist activities, and it got really, really bad.
00:42:43
[Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA
(Airborne Optical Adjunct)]
SB:
So after coming down to America for—to buy instrumentation for the—we instrumented
a Sparrow missile and hung it on a CF-100, which was a twin-engine large
[unintelligible] fighter, and put all the instruments in tanks in the wingtips. So I came
down to America a lot to buy instruments from Ampex, Ampex tape recorders and things
like that, and went to Point Mugu and watched them launching Sparrow missiles and
became quite familiar with the American way of doing things. And after a while,
Diefenbaker, who was the Prime Minister of Canada, decided to cancel the program
because the Americans made him an offer to put Bomarc missiles in Canada instead of
the Avro Arrow. So Boeing made us an offer, “Come to Boeing and work on the Bomarc
instead of the Avro—the Arrow.”
So the Avro program was canceled, and most of the engineers from Canadair went to
Boeing. We all went on a train across Canada, 185 engineers and all their families on one
train going to Seattle via Vancouver. So that’s how I got to the United States. So I came
down here in 1959, and I wasn’t a citizen because Canadair wouldn’t release me. And I
joined the Bomarc program and worked on base installations and was sent by Boeing to
Cape Cod and worked on Cape Cod on and off for three years installing Bomarcs in their
shelters.
I went back to Seattle and was sent to Duluth, Minnesota to do the same things. I worked
on the same thing in Duluth, Minnesota, which was very interesting. It was very cold and
all the rest of it. But it was also another interesting experience. By this time, I—we had a
son. So my son was born in Montreal. And so I’ve got a wonderful son and a wonderful
daughter, of which of whom I’m extremely proud and they’re doing very well in life.
And so we all emigrated to America and used Seattle’s headquarters, of course, because
that’s where Boeing was. But because I was young, had a young family and they weren’t
in school, I volunteered to go and work on the—these Bomarc programs. And after that, I
came back and went for a short time on Minuteman and then came back to Seattle for—
more or less permanently and worked on AWACS. Worked on the AWACS proposal,
which was an extraordinarily interesting experience because I—by then I was a
supervisor in Boeing Manufacturing, and so I became the Manufacturing representative
on the AWACS proposal. So we figured out how we were going to make this thing. So
what we decided to do was we were going to buy a 707 from Commercial cousins, put
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big struts on the tail, and mount a 13-foot-diameter rotodome on top. So the aero—I was
in Aerospace, and we bought the airplane from Commercial. So they modified the
airplane to the extent of putting struts on it in Renton, and the airplane was flown over to
Seattle. We mounted the rotodome on it. And the rotodome was made in Auburn.
And now I was responsible for building the rotodome. And the major component of the
rotodome was the radomes. So the radomes were very large and ovoid in shape. And as I
said, the rotodome complete weighed 13,000 pounds, so it was a very large device that
rotated on a six-foot-diameter ball bearing round on top of these struts. So one of the
things we had to do with the radome was to customize the shape of it. It was built out of
fiberglass and one-and-a-half-inch-thick foam—excuse me, honeycomb core. So the
ladies in Auburn had to lay up this honeycomb with layers of fiberglass on it.
So the actual radome is a lens. And not many people know this, but what happens is the
bullnose of the radome is much thinner than the top. Because what happens is when the
radar entity comes through the radome and the beams are parallel, the sender beams go
straight through. But if you didn’t make the radome into a lens, what would happen is
the—because there’s more resistance of the beams going through at an angle, the beams
tend to be tipped up because the—like it acts as a lens and tips the—so the beam, instead
of being nice and parallel, goes like this. [demonstrates]
So the range was horrible on the initial AWACS until we figured out, if we put layers of
fiberglass starting thin and then making it thicker so there was much as much resistance
going through the core—the bullnose as there is through the top. So then the beams came
out parallel, and it virtually doubled the range of the beam. So this is all transparent, of
course. You can never see this. So this is one of the more interesting things. As a sort of
side adjunct, learning how to make that radome enabled me to make the radome for the
B-29 when I worked on the radome some 60 years later.
Anyway, so back to the AWACS program. So we built 31 AWACS airplanes for the U.S.
Air Force, and then the NATO countries decided they wanted AWACS as well. So being
a Manufacturing manager by then, I—one of the conditions under which NATO countries
would buy the airplane was under what they called offset. And offset was they had to
spend as much money in the host country as Boeing spent on the airplane. So we had to
give them as much money to spend in Europe, and the—for that money, they built the
electronics and then they took the electronics and installed it in the airplane and checked
it out and delivered it to the NATO countries.
So to select which companies were able to do this work, I was part of a team that went to
England, France, and Germany to select the countries to do the work for us. We ended up
selecting Dornier in Munich to do the integration and checkout. We selected [Siemens?]
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to build the various parts, and all over the—Germany, they were building various parts
for the airplane. However, the radar, of course, was still built by Westinghouse in
America. So as a result of this, I spent many flights going across the Atlantic working
with Dornier, getting them checked out on how to do this checkout of the electronics and
flight-test the airplane and check it out.
So during these trips, I—being a sports car enthusiast, I made a point of going to a
Porsche factory and buying up parts for a sports racing car that I built. So there were only
20 of these cars built by the factories. The factory was very excited to provide me with all
these non-obtainable parts, which I then flew back with me on the airplane back to
Seattle. And it became so obvious after about 15 of these trips, the customs people said,
“We’ve finally got you figured out. You’re bringing a car back piece by piece, aren’t
you?” I said, “Yeah, you caught me. Yes, I am.” [laughs] So they just laughed about it,
you know. This was the good old days. And incidentally, I took a windshield the other
way, back to Germany, and they could not figure out what my devious plan was to take a
cracked windshield back to Germany. So, you know, these are the fun days going through
customs, where the guys were reasonable and they had a joke about stuff.
JB:
Yeah.
SB:
Quite different now. So anyways, after the AWACS contract was satisfactorily completed
and I had to go to the Hague and talk to the native countries and went through the
instantaneous translation and things like that—it was very stressful, although somewhat
fun, to describe to us—to them how we were doing on the program and represented
Boeing management. That was educational, to put it mildly.
So I went back to Seattle after the end of that contract, and by then the Air Force came to
us and said, “The Japanese have approached us. They want to put—they want to buy
some AWACS, but they want to put it on a more modern airframe.” So we designed an
airplane which was—I’m sorry. I missed a whole thing. The Saudis came and wanted
AWACS, too. But they wanted different engines on the airplane, so we put CFM56
engines on the airplane to make it more fuel efficient. So I got to negotiate the contract
with the Saudis, and that was quite a different experience, trying to teach the Saudis. And
you can’t teach the Saudis anything. They know it all. So that was interesting.
Also, negotiating with the Saudis on why it cost so much to put different engines on the
airframe. So we experienced the thing like we’d have these Saudis lined up at the table
like this and Boeing—the Air Force would be on the other side because we weren’t
allowed to talk to the Saudis. We had to do it through the Air Force. But behind every
Saudi was an Englishman. So the Saudis would ask them—the Air Force a question, and
the Air Force would turn around to ask for the answer. We’d tell them the answer, they’d
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turn around to the Saudis, and then the Saudis would have to turn around to the English
people and say, “What did the guy mean?” So this was the negotiation for the AWACS
airplane for the Saudis.
The main bone of contention was why it cost so much money to change the engines from
TF33s to CFM56s. And they found out that, during the proposal I worked on, the original
AWACS airplane had eight engines. It was going to take off on eight and then cruise on
four for efficiency. Because it was a maintenance nightmare—it was a ridiculous idea—
so the Air Force made us, on paper, change the engines from TF33 eight engines to TF33
four engines. And somehow the Saudis found out about how much that cost. So they
asked the Air Force, “If it only costs that much, why does it cost this much?” And the Air
Force’s answer was, “Well, I’m sorry, but all the records have been destroyed and we
don’t know how much it cost originally.”
So this answer was transmitted back to the British. And the Saudis’ answer to the Air
Force—our Air Force was, “It sounds like you’re running a corner grocery store,” which
was a typical English expression. [laughs] And the Americans said, “What do you
mean?” So we had to tell them what “running a corner grocery store” meant. This is—
you know, this was a negotiation for a multimillion dollar contract. It was insane.
[laughs]
Anyway, so we finally convinced the Saudis, and they came to America, of course, to
watch how we were building the airplane. And we showed them the people building the
707 in Renton, and, of course, there were a lot of women building the airplane. And they
came to me and said, “We can’t have that. We can’t have women working on the
airplane.” I said, “That’s what you bought. Too bad. If you don’t like it, you know, go
somewhere else.” And so this sort of attitude was just totally incredible. I found, anyway.
JB:
What an experience, though.
SB:
Yes.
JB:
Yeah.
SB:
Well, finally we got this contract to build the Japanese AWACS. And that was a twinengine airplane, and all we did was build it and deliver it. I had nothing to do—negotiate
with the Japanese, really.
And finally I—after the end of the AWACS program, I went on to AOA, which was a
very interesting program. And that turned out to be a—we took the prototype 767, which
was a twin engine, put a large cupola on top, and in that cupola, which was a box, we had
a window on the side which opened up. And the trick to seeing out through an open
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cavity like that—because what happens, the airflow across the cavity is very turbulent,
and turbulent air acts as a lens. It completely upsets the viewing through the air as it
passes over this open cavity.
So we developed in our wind tunnel a system called an aero-optical window. So what did
is we took air in through the front of the cupola, and by carefully diverting it into a slot
upstream of the window, we produced a laminar flow of air across the window and
recaptured it on the downstream side, so the telescope looked out through a completely
clear laminar flow of air. And that technique is still being used today on some airplanes
that are looking at the stars through telescopes. So that technique was very innovative.
So we developed that, which made the telescope, which was the—and this is still highly
classified. Not what I’m going to tell you, but a lot of the processing stuff. It was made
by Hughes in El Segundo, California. They developed the sensor, which was an infrared
sensor, which was able to sense three different infrared spectrums. The telescope itself
was made by an optical country—company. It’s a name I—I always botch it up because it
sounds like Ikea. I think it’s some—it’s an optical telescope company, anyway. And
watched them grounding—ground these perfect mirrors for—that went inside this
telescope. It was all taken back to Hughes and assembled in this device, which was
probably about, oh, five feet in diameter. It was fairly heavy, and it was mounted on a
gimbal system so it could track like this. [demonstrates]
And it was tested in one of the labs in Hughes, and I was responsible for moving this
thing from Hughes up to Seattle on a truck. This thing was worth $26 million. So because
I was the Manufacturing manager and I had the transportation people under me, we had
to design a way of moving this thing, as I said. So we designed a package. It was
mounted on a lowboy truck with air ride suspension. The Army insisted we put brandnew tires on this thing, so we put brand-new tires on it. We backed it into this secret
facility at Hughes, and to get this thing in there, we had to open the roof and—to get this
thing out. And lo and behold, we had to wait until the Russian satellite had gone over,
because every time they moved anything like that, they had to wait for the Russian spy
satellites to get out of the way. So that was something I didn’t know.
Anyway, so we finally got this thing on the truck. And we went through the whole plan
over and over and over again on exactly how we were going to move it, what route we
were going, who were the drivers, what sort of an escort we wanted. And they wanted to
put the FBI with an armored car in front and a series of armored FBI vans of Special—
not FBI, but Special Forces people. I said, “No. For goodness sake, you might as well put
a marching band in front of this thing with a banner saying, ‘Here’s a secret payload
going down the highway.’”
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So we did away with all that stuff and just had a truck with a box over it, which was
bulletproof, because we found that when we were moving Minuteman missiles to the
bases, the kids used to shoot at these missiles—or shoot at the trailers. And they put the
star—the Air Force star right over the payload where the expensive guidance system was,
and these kids used to shoot at the star and hit the navigation system.
Anyway, so we had this plain box, which was lined with Kevlar inside in case somebody
shot at this thing. And I learned, the reason they went through all those things, there were
actually people up in the mountains in Oregon that were right-wing radicals, I guess
you’d call them, that came down periodically and did these sort of things. I had
absolutely no idea this was going on. So we drove up the highway, and we had a wideload car in front, just like any other truck, with a relief driver in it. And I was riding in the
truck with the other driver. And so I learned to ride in an 18-wheeler all the way up from
[Seattle?]. That was another great experience.
So we finally arrived in Seattle and everything was fine. We unloaded and everybody
said, “Oh, thank goodness for that.” So we put it—lift it up on the airplane and put it into
the cupola and did some checkout on it. Everything checked all right. So we had a huge
contingent from Hughes working with us all the time because they operated the sensor.
We had whole displays inside the airplane.
So after some preliminary checkout, we flew it to Kwajalein in the South Pacific and flew
it 45—47,000 feet, which is way above what the normal 767 could fly, and we did that by
over-boosting the engines by 18 percent. So we were flying at 48—47,000 feet. And this
is “coffin corridor” because the airplane doesn’t want to really fly at that altitude, so we
got the most experienced Boeing test pilot to fly this airplane at that altitude. And we
popped the window open, and they launched a Minuteman from Vandenberg. And this
[unintelligible] came over the horizon, and we saw it come over the horizon. We saw it
deploy its decoys and three warheads, and watched the warheads go in different
directions and watched the decoys go away. And I won’t tell you how we did it, but we
actually could in fact establish tracks on the warheads, although we “didn’t do that” [air
quotations] because it was a violation of the treaty with the Russians.
So it was one of the more exciting projects I was involved with. And that was another
extremely successful program. And it was a lot of fun flying out of Kwajalein. And, of
course, the crew was—always said, “Well, we can’t possibly make it back to Seattle. We
have to land in Hawaii.” Of course, that wasn’t true, but we did. We established a base in
Hawaii with a—we took over the penthouse suite on top of one of the hotels and used
that as a command center, as a radio relay station. So my wife joined me in Hawaii, and
she spent some time up in the penthouse suite with me. So it was—you know, I told you,
I have great fun wherever I go. So… [laughter]
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JB:
You certainly do.
01:04:44
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work]
SB:
So after that, I—they asked me to come to South Korea because South Korea wanted to
buy AWACS. So I went up to my buddies in Everett and said, “You guys have just sold a
helicopter to South Korea. How was it?” They said, “Don’t have anything to do with it.”
The whole thing is preordained. You go there and select the companies and then they just
turn around and put them wherever they want to, because the government tell where the
work’s going to be done. So it was an absolute catastrophe. They were doing highquality, cleanroom-environment hydraulics in a dirt shack. So they said, “Don’t have
anything to do with it.”
So I decided to retire. It was time for me to retire anyway. I retired from Boeing and
finished building my—one of my sports racing cars. When that was finished, I decided I
would join The Museum of Flight. So I joined The Museum of Flight in about 19—2004
or something like that and went through docent training class, became a docent, and
really enjoyed that for two or three years.
And decided I—I was still working on my sports cars, so I decided I’d like to do some
more hands-on work. So after selling my last car, I went up to Everett and talked to Tom
Cathcart [Director of Aircraft Collections and Restoration at The Museum of Flight] and
said, “I would like to work on something.” So he said, “Well, how about the Comet?
You’re English.” And so I said, “That sounds good.” But I said, “I don’t really want to
drive from Bellevue up to Everett every day. Don’t you have anything nearer?” So he
said, “Well, as a matter of fact, we do. We have a whole tail of the B-29 is sitting in
Renton waiting for somebody to restore it. And we have—also, that’s where the B-17 is.”
I said, “Well, that sounds just up my street.” He said, “Well, why don’t you go down to
Renton and take a look at it and talk to Herb Phelan, who’s the project manager down
there?”
I talked to Herb, and lo and behold, I met Herb, who I used to work with on AWACS all
those years before. So I’ve known Herb for like 50 or 60 years. I worked with him on
AWACS as—I was the Manufacturing manager, and he was one of the Engineering
managers installing electronics. So it was like Old Home Week. So he said, “Well, hell,
you know what to do. You just—so you become the project manager on the tail of the B29.” I spent three years at Renton completely restoring the tail of the B-29. And it was
completely gutted because after the—this particular B-29, T-Square, left the Air Force
infantry—didn’t leave it. It was assigned to be modified as a tanker. So it was modified
as an aerial tanker with a boom out the back. So to do that, they took the whole oxygen
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supply of the tail gunner out, they took the lower aft tail turret out, they took all the
ammunition storage for the tail turret out, all of the pressure bulkheads out, the armor
plating, all of the windows. They completely gutted the tail. And my job was to restore
all that back to what it used to look like before it was converted into a tanker.
So it was a monumental job. And I had some absolutely fabulous help, obviously. I got
people to build me bulletproof windows, and I got somebody—a friend of mine who was
a—ran a very upgrade car restoration company, we actually took the tail turret down
there, and he [unintelligible] wheel and rolled a complete dome for the back where the
guns penetrate through, so it enabled the guns to penetrate through and vertically move
and swivel side to side. It was just a—just absolute fantastic craftsmanship.
And as a help, I got the Wind Tunnel Department to build all the rack and pinion gears
for—that operated the guns up and down and moved them side to side. So another friend
of mine—became a friend of mine, Don—Dale Thompson, who you interviewed the
other day, completely designed the control system, the computers that controlled all this
stuff. So now we have the only B-29 in the world where the guns can actually be elevated
and traversed all from the central fire control system. So that’s what I was doing early on
on the restoration of the B-29.
JB:
You’ve got about 16,000 hours in here as a volunteer?
SB:
Yes. Yes.
JB:
How rewarding do you find the Museum?
SB:
Well… [laughs]. I started, of course, coming down here from Bellevue, and then I went
to a retirement community down in Lacey, near Olympia, so that’s 60 miles away. So I
cut down my visits quite substantially because I have a—I happen to have a completely—
a fully equipped workshop in my garage, which I had in Bellevue. I’ve got a lathe and a
mill and virtually all the things I need to do all my own machining. So I did all that in
Bellevue, but then I decided I could just as well do that in Olympia.
So all the machine work I did—and I did a lot of it—I was able to do without coming to
the Museum at all. And when I finished something, I’d take it up to the Museum and
install it. Like I built all the bomb racks, and that was all built in my shop in Olympia
with a friend of mine’s help. And I got some of the heavy-duty work done in the—by
Machinists Incorporated in Seattle. They bent up all the very heavy girders that carried
the load of these bombs, and we reassembled them in my shop and did all the—installed
all the hundreds of rivets, installed all the shackles and releases and all the devices that go
along with releasing the bombs, and brought them one at a time back up to the shop here.
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And Dale Thompson wired all of the bomb releases up, and so that’s that job. We finally
installed them in the airplane.
At that time, the B-29 was wrapped in—as a cocoon with a complete—so we couldn’t
open the bomb bay doors. So everybody said, “How the hell—you can’t install the bomb
racks if you can’t open the doors.” I said, “The hell we can’t.” So we threaded them up
through the access hatch in the front, along through the pilot’s compartment, down
through the pressurized door in the forward bomb bay, and down in through the—into the
bomb bay through that way. And all the guys were standing inside the bomb bay with the
doors closed. Then we installed them in there with the doors closed. Then we finally
installed all four of them in there.
And afterwards, I said, “Well, I’ll build the bombs for them.” So a friend of mine—
became a friend of mine—had built 10 bombs for the B-17. So I took all over his
tooling—he happened to be another English guy—I took over his tooling and went to the
same supplier he did to get the casings for the bombs, which where a supplier of the
Alaska Pipeline material down in Seattle. And he happened to have a load of pipeline
material that fell off a truck and was dented. So he gave me these casings for the bombs
and cut them all to length. So the really hard part of building the bombs were done by this
factory, and he then donated all this—all these people donated all this stuff to us. So we
got another shop to help us build the fins and built all the fins and made all the tail fuses.
And that took hours and hours and hours because tail fuses and nose fuses consist of
hundreds of parts. And I got a friend to make the molds for the nose fairing of the bomb
and the tail fairing of the bomb. That was done at a five-axis machine shop down in
Auburn. And this guy, Steve Kidd, in the end did so much work for us, he must have
donated at least $100,000 of his labor, just an incredible help to the Museum and can’t
say enough good things about him.
And he finally came day before yesterday and videotaped the installation—the final
installation of these bombs on these bomb racks. So finally we closed the loop and
actually installed the bombs the day before yesterday, which was quite an event, believe
me. In the meantime, of course, I got to build several other things the—of the airplane.
All of the exhaust pipes. The radial engines have two exhaust pipes: one inboard, one
outboard. And these things are about this big around, and they come around like this.
[demonstrates] And they were all missing. So I got Steve Kidd to make the molds on his
five-axis machines for this shape, both on an inboard and outboard. So I built nine
exhaust pipes for the—one of which became an exhibit on the ground. It was just cutaway and shows how the turbocharger works. So it’s a portable exhibit, which was the
ninth exhaust pipe.
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So I built exhaust pipes. Then I took on a really tricky job of building radome for the
airplane because Dale Thompson had refurbished the radar antenna for the airplane, so
we knew this airplane needs to have a radar antenna, which was a—look straight down,
and it was assisting in bomb dropping, blind bomb dropping. So you had to make a
radome for this thing since it was missing. It was missing because, in the past, they had
taken all this stuff out and they had just put a crude patch over where this radome was.
So I got a sheet of Mylar and I marked off where the holes were where the original
radome attached. So I then was able to produce the plan view of what the radome looked
like. And a friend a mine went and took pictures, digital pictures of a B-29 with a bombdropping radar on it with a radome. He took a side view of the radome, so I got the side
profile. Then he took a head-on view of the radome, so I got a nose front-on profile. And
I took them downstairs in this building and projected onto the wall of the classroom until
it was the full-size picture, and then I traced the picture on the wall and made a side
profile of the radome. And I did it the other way and did the head-on profile of the
radome. And then I got a large sheet of plywood, and I cut the plan profile out, and I cut
the side profile out this way and made bulkheads this way. [demonstrates] And then I got
my old tooling—lofting experience and I blended all the lines in between the front and
the back and the top and the bottom and made this bathtub shape of the tool to build this
radome in. And I made it in two halves so I could separate it.
So after I lathed up the radome—as I said, I lathed it up just like the AWACS radome,
using half-inch honeycomb core instead of one-and-a-half inch. I formed it inside the
radome, lathed up fiberglass, and all around the top I cut out little segments and put solid
core in, so there were solid blocks all the way around the outside. This is where the attach
points were to bolt it to the airplane. So we popped it out of the mold, separated it, came
out, went up to Everett to be painted. And I shaped it. I made another model of the—what
the bottom of the airplane looked like out of steel. And I popped this thing on this steel
model, and I carved it away until it fitted perfectly on this curved bottom of the airplanes.
So this odd shape fitted around the bottom of the airplane, so when we put it up against
the bottom, it fitted perfectly. So I was very pleased about that.
JB:
You did all of that without prints.
SB:
Without drawings. No idea—[crosstalk].
JB:
Without any kind of drawings. What about the tail section and your APU exhaust and all
that?
SB:
Nothing, nothing. You know, it was—we had no drawings of any of that stuff. There
were a few things we did have drawings of. The bomb racks, we had drawings for. So we
knew how to—I knew how to make the big fittings that bolted to the airplanes. I had
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drawings of all that stuff. And I had copies—Herb Phelan lent me the hooks out of the B17, and I took them down because I had to build 70 of those things out of three-eighths
steel. I wasn’t about to hacksaw this stuff out.
So my friend Steve Kidd found a company he knew in Kent. They would waterjet-cut
these things for me. So they did all this for me for nothing because Steve Kidd asked
them to. So all that sort of things he did for me that would have been horrible—a horrible
job to make 70 of these things by hand. So I got them all perfect for nothing. Again, up in
Everett, they did all the plating for me for nothing. So companies are wonderful in the
way they support the Museum. The Museum has such a great reputation of being
something worthwhile to do work for, so it’s very—it makes you very proud and pleased
to work at a place like this. And also such a privilege to work on these airplanes that
become part of the American heritage. You know, it’s beyond description of how—when
somebody comes and says—when you’re a docent, you know, you worked on this
airplane and they say, “Well, thank you so much for saving a national treasure like that,”
it really gets to you. It makes it all worthwhile. I don’t want to get emotional or anything
like that. [laughs]
JB:
What are you working on now?
SB:
I’m working—
JB:
You got your bombs done.
SB:
Well, I’ve got the bombs done and installed, but I’m working on, with Dale, an electronic
warfare system. So this is a—believe it or not, in World War II, they actually monitored
the frequency of the radars that were shooting antiaircraft fire at the airplane. And all
these guns were radar controlled. So they’d get the frequency with an antenna of these—
of the fire control radars, and once—they had frequency scanning, so once they
determined—and Dale’s making all this stuff, and I’m making all the antennas and the
installation of this stuff. So we’re actually putting the antiaircraft anti-system on the
airplane. So that’s what I’m working now on, the anti-electronic warfare system.
So, you know, it will never, never stop. It’ll never end. [laughter] People say, “When will
it be finished?” I say, “Not in my lifetime.” We’ll always keep doing it, and when we get
through, we’ll go back and do things better. So it’s a—you know, a career for somebody.
And that’s part of the difficulty, to find young people who want to step up and start doing
this stuff. So it’s nice to find younger people who are interested. And we are slowly doing
that.
01:22:18
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[Achievements and notable moments from his career]
JB:
Over the years in your careers, tell us about the awards you’ve received.
SB:
Oh. [laughs] Well, I got awards for things like moving the AOA sensor from—because
the Army was so worried about it. I got a commendation and a big wooden plaque for it.
And I was AWACS Employee of the Year several of the years and things like that. Just
normal stuff. And I got—when I worked at the Museum, of course, I got just an award for
living long, I guess, the 10,000-hour award, for spending two—10,000 hours, which is
sort of a lifetime, on working on the airplanes and being a docent. That was some years
ago, so I’m way above 10,000 hours now. I’m more like 12,000 or 14,000 hours. But
it’s—every one has been fun, so I’ve enjoyed it.
JB:
What about special events or memories in all your travel? Been all over the world, seen a
lot of stuff. You must have some memories that really stand out.
SB:
Yes, I do. Very much so. It’s hard to know where to start. I think probably one of the
things that stood out was flying on demonstration flights with AWACS over Germany to
demonstrate the capability of AWACS—over Germany and France. Ironically, just
before we arrived in France, it was either Lockheed or North American, I can’t remember
which, had taken their Navy AWACS airplane over to France. And it also was a
shipborne AWACS with a rotating radome on top. And when they fired it out—up, it shut
down the entire French television system. So the French said, “Hey, no way. We don’t
want that thing here.”
So we followed them with our AWACS airplane, and the French provided fighters as
targets that came through the Alps at low level and then popped up. And we were—our
mission was to see how soon we could see these fighters coming through the Alps, which
was very exciting, both for them and for us. And we were able to see the fighters long
before they thought we could. With our filtering systems, we’d actually see them coming
through the Alps at low altitude. So that was one thing.
The other thing, though, that really sort of amused me and—our program manager
would—Mark [unintelligible] was on the airplane. He was a very good salesman and a
very nice guy, and I was his right-hand man. And I remember this Luftwaffe general
looking at this scope, and it showed the Autobahn, and it showed high-speed traffic going
down the Autobahn. And this German general said, “Well, is that a Porsche or a
Mercedes?” And Mark said, “Well, we haven’t got that far. We haven’t figured that out
yet.” So he said, “Well, how do you know the traffic?” And he said, “Well, we have a
filter on the airplane so that we don’t normally track anything that’s going below—I
mean, below 100 miles an hour. Only things that are going above 100 miles an hour do
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we track. Otherwise, we’d be completely caught up with all the cars going every which
way.” So he said, “We’ve done this so we can track helicopters at low altitude.”
So the Luftwaffe guy said, “Well, we’re just crossing over this intersection, so how do I
know that’s where we really are?” So Mark said, “Well, just look out of the window.” So
they looked out of the window, and sure enough, there were two Autobahns crossing. He
said, “Okay. I’m sold.” [laughs] That sort of thing, which is—I found very amusing. And
I’m sure I could think of some others, but…
01:26:38
[Advice for young people]
JB:
What advice would you give to a young person today?
SB:
Oh, that’s a good question. It’s very difficult because you can’t really advise old
people—young people with being an old 90-year-old. But I—and my wife, ever since we
were married, is—I’m very outspoken and say things I regret later. And my wife always
has to go around and sweep up after me. I remember going to a dinner where a very good
nurse friend of my wife’s was having a dinner party. And her daughter was there with her
boyfriend, and they were sitting at the table. And they sort of said the same thing, you
know, “What advice…?”
I asked them, “Well, what are you doing in college?” And this woman said, “I’m
studying software programming,” or something, and this guy said, “Well, I’m doing
something in the other…” Technologist like this. And I said, “For crying out loud,
doesn’t anybody get a real job anymore?” And they said, “What do you mean?” I said,
“You know, something that contributes to the national—gross national product. I mean,
how does shuffling paperwork between you two do anything for the economy?” I said,
“You ought to do something that’s—that contributes.” And they said, “Hell, you’re just
an old guy who just don’t understand.”
So sort of that stopped me from giving advice to young people. It’s very hard to
communicate to people who’ve got such a different base in what their world is like. But I
do enjoy—I did enjoy talking to people in—as a docent, young people and answering
questions that they had, because they had some very—so I guess my advice would be try
anything, just keep trying things. Don’t settle for one—don’t get into a rut. And be happy
with one thing you’re doing. When you get a career, make sure you know that’s really
what you want to do for the rest of your life. And I know that’s easy to say and not so
easy to do.
01:28:57
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[Car restoration and sports racing]
JB:
Any subjects we’ve missed? Any topics we should be talking about that—
SB:
Well, only sports cars, of course. [laughs]
JB:
Sports cars.
SB:
I have a whole different parallel life. [laughter] My first work with restoration, of course,
was with cars. And I started in—back in Australia when I first visited there with helping
my friend restore an old Riley, and that sort of got me the bug. But when I came back to
America, I finally got the chance of having a bit of money and buying cars that I thought
were worth restoring, only from a satisfactory point of view, not from a monetary point
of view.
So I became president of the Porsche Club and—[bumps microphone] Sorry about that. I
bought a sports rally car from Italy, which is a 1973 RS Carrera, and spent a lot of time
restoring it and a lot of fun restoring it. When it was finished, I entered into sports racing
down in California and bought a transporter for it and did sports racing all up and down
the coast. And I found out later that this became a sort of an icon car, became the 911 to
own. Out of all the Porches in all the surveys they’ve done, this is number two of any
Porsche that all the Porsche enthusiasts want to own. By sheer coincidence. I had no idea
this car was going to be worth quite a bit of money. I didn’t buy it for that reason. So I
eventually sold it for $500,000 and then decided I would buy some other car.
So I was pitting it with my friend who owned a 1926 Bugatti down in Laguna Seca. And
the radio said that he—they wanted to sell an engine from a car that he was driving
because he blew up his engine. So the guy went to see this man, and the guy said, “Well,
I’ve got this engine, but it’s in this car and I want to sell the whole thing.” So I said,
“Well, you buy the engine. I’ll buy the car.” Well, it turned out to be a very, very rare
Porsche 904 sports racing car. So I bought this sports racing car, and he bought the
engine. And I paid $13,000 for this car.
And as I said, when I worked for Boeing, I was constantly going back to Germany, so I
finally bought enough parts to rebuild the engine. And the engine itself now is worth
$50,000. So I got my friend to build this engine for me for nothing, just because he’d
never built one of those engines before and he wanted to put it in his résumé that he had
built one of these engines, which is very exotic, the twin overhead cam, two-liter, fourcylinder engine, if that means anything to anybody, which put out about 250 horsepower,
which is a lot of horsepower for a two-liter engine. And it was also a mid-engine, so I
also raced this car up and down the coast. And finally a buyer from Japan came and said
he wanted to buy it for a museum in Japan, so they made me an offer I couldn’t refuse.
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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So it went to Japan and was in a museum there for quite some time, until I—and they
gave me all the BS about it was a national treasure, it would never leave Japan. I thought,
[makes sound effect]. So sure enough, four years ago, it was sold to Germany, went to
Germany. Then I found out a very rich couple in Connecticut went over to Germany and
bought this car for $1.6 million. So this is the car I sold for $100,000 to Japan, was sold
for $1.6 million, which made me feel fine.
So I then, as a retirement project, bought a Porsche, a 1957 Porsche Speedster, which was
a—sort of the ultimate cult car, which was because it was cute. I didn’t buy it because it
was cute. I bought it because I like them. And it was one of those ironies. It became a cult
car because it did look cute. It was—all the women liked it, so—it was made by Porsche
as the least expensive car to compete with the British cars. So it was sold in America for
$3,000. I bought this car for $3,000, which was a wreck. It was rusty and so on. So I
spent my first three years of my retirement building that car and competing with it and
winning awards for it with the Porsche Cup. So that was my sort of side career, which
was going on in parallel with my work career, to answer your question.
01:34:17
[Legacy of restoration work]
JB:
So in 50 years, if someone is researching, what would you like to leave them with?
They’re researching and they watch yours—your oral history.
SB:
I think I’d like to almost repeat what I’ve said before, that—as I said during the 10,000hour award ceremony, it’s—the Museum spent all this time thanking us volunteers for all
the work we do on the airplane, but we really should be thanking the Museum for
allowing us to work on these airplanes. Because, like I said, it—I personally feel like it’s
hopefully building something that’s going to last—forever’s a long time, but a long time.
Hopefully at least 50 years, and will be valued by people in 50 years’ time and
appreciated by them. And I hope that they will wonder who did this work and be able to
reflect on that I contributed in some way to that.
And just as a sort of side issue on that, one of my projects, when I was doing—working
on the landing gear doors, I ended up with a nice little box, which was a simulated
transducer that told the pilot whether the doors were open or closed or not. So in that box,
with permission from everybody, I made a time capsule. So I put some CD-ROMs in
there and some sticks and some paperwork—I didn’t know what technology would be
available when they finally open this thing up—on all the work that all the guys had done
on the airplane, who they were and what their backgrounds were. And so hopefully in 50
years, somebody stumbles across the thing and opens it up, and maybe they can decipher
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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what these funny old memory sticks are. So that’s something I left for the future. So
that’s—I hope that answered your question.
JB:
Yeah. That’s very good. Any questions?
01:36:42
[Stories from Army service]
KELCI HOPP:
I have one question. My question jumps back a little bit. I just wanted to
follow up. When you were talking about working with the Americans dropping
parachutes on the Russian front, you said that there are a lot of stories that go along with
that. And I didn’t know if maybe you could tell us one.
SB:
Well, sure. These payloads were considered by the British Army as sort of classified.
They weren’t secret, but the technology in providing the shock-absorbing equipment and
so on was restricted. So we had to take these payloads to an American Army—Air Force
base and put them in these C-119 troop carriers. So we had to stay in the barracks where
the Americans were with them.
So one night we were in the barracks, and we were sleeping, and all of a sudden there
was a burst of machine-gun fire. We thought, what the hell is this? This is in England.
[laughs] This wasn’t in some foreign country. And so the next morning we went down to
breakfast, and there was a GI MP that people were standing around and giving him all
kinds of razz. And we said, “What’s going on?” So they said, well, this burst of machinegun fire, this guy, he was on—patrolling at midnight around the base and stuck his head
around the corner of the hangar and seen somebody around the other side, so he called
out, “Halt, who goes there?” And no response. And he said, “If you don’t come out, I’ll
fire.” And, of course, all the guards on the base had live ammunition because of the
payloads and stuff. So still no response. So he was like, “I jumped out around the corner
of the hangar and let fire into the side of the base commander’s car.” Because he had seen
his own reflection in the moonlight in this side of this guy’s car. So he riddled the
commander’s car from one end to the other. So we all thought that was pretty typically
American, pretty crazy. [laughter]
So that was the sort of thing I was talking about. But anyway, we got on famously with
the Americans. One of the things we did, being in the Parachute Regiment, when we were
stationed near the American base, we were told that we wanted—they wanted us to go
and attack the base, see if we could get onto the base. And we said, “Okay. We’ll give it a
try.” We used to go downtown and have fights with the Americans in the local bars, these
tough Welshmen I was telling you about. So we decided, now how are we doing to do
this? We never—we’ll never be able to do a frontal attack. So we went down to the local
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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fire station, and we commandeered a local fire engine. So we drove through the gates
with the fire bell and the lights on the firetruck and the bell ringing, and they just opened
the gates and let us through. So we drove to the control tower and said, “Here we are. We
won.” And they said, “What—you can’t do that. That’s not fair.” So we had a good laugh
at their expense. And they said, “Ah, well, I guess you’re right. You can’t play fair
always.” So that sort of thing was what I was talking about. Does that answer your
question?
KH:
Yeah, absolutely. I only had the one.
01:40:12
[Side projects at Boeing]
PEDER NELSON: I guess I have just one question. As we’ve been doing the additions to the
Destination Moon exhibit, we’ve—and the additions to the Apollo exhibit coming up,
we’ve been learning a lot about the Lunar Orbiter program that was based out of the same
building that the Bomarc program was.
SB:
Right.
PN:
Did you have any experience in that building and did those who worked in that building,
did they understand the history of that building as well, as a part of Seattle history?
SB:
I can’t answer your question directly because, no, that was happening long after I was
working on other programs with Boeing. But while I was there, Boeing did operate and
develop the hydrofoil boat. They developed first with a little boat they called the Little
Squirt, and then they built a full-size boat for the Navy, which flew on hydrofoils and had
a rapid-firing gun on the front. And that’s another whole side story, but I was assigned
while I was on AWACS to go down to Litton in California to work with their Advanced
Marine Technology Division to get, quote, “close to the Navy.”
So my boss at that time was an ex-World War II submarine commander. He was a—had
a fleet of submarines he was responsible for that put coast watches on the islands in the
Pacific to watch for Japanese traffic. So he was a really experienced Navy guy who
worked for Boeing. So we went down to El Segundo and helped Litton design the basic
point defense system for their destroyer, this new DD-963 destroyer. So I got to work
with the Navy on installing an anti-missile system on a destroyer. And to do that, we
went down to Pascagoula, Mississippi and watched them building ships. So that was
another little side trip I took, which was interesting.
And, of course, I had lots of interesting experiences with the Navy guys. This old sea
captain was very smart because he realized that the way to get the Navy’s attention was
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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to hire the most gorgeous secretary he could come up with. So our joint secretary we
shared used to wear yellow plastic miniskirts, and she was built like a brick outhouse. So
all the time the Navy guys were coming down to talk to my boss, theoretically, of course,
they were—to look at this young lady. So that’s the sort of characters I worked with.
And there’s another side issue. It was sort of a tragedy, was this guy had his—a wife in
Seattle who—they had collectively a daughter who was an award-winning journalist for
The Seattle Times. Bobbi McCallum, her name was. And she was a—won a Pulitzer
Prize. And for the awards ceremony, she went to a local dermatologist to have her skin
planed. And on the way to this procedure, she was involved in a very minor traffic
accident. And when they sat her on the chair to do this sanding of her face, they gave her
a local anesthetic. And the guy went out of the room to—while this anesthetic—and she
went into cardiac arrest in the chair and died.
And, of course, his wife, who was legally blind, was in Seattle, and he was an absolute
basket case. And I had to take him back to Seattle. It was a shocking experience. It was
so unexpected and shocking. So this poor guy, I had to take him back to Seattle. I
personally had to lead him by the hand through the airport. He was so distraught. That
was a very emotional experience. Nothing to do with airplanes, obviously. So those sort
of things happened. Anything else? That doesn’t answer your question at all.
But working at that place, incidentally, they also produced windmills there. And that was
the largest windmill the government experimented in, went down in Long Beach—no,
not Long Beach. Anyway, I can’t remember the name of the place. We also built the
unmanned trains for the University of—I can’t remember now. So we built unmanned
trains down there, too. So we built a lot of odd things in that building.
PN:
So that was all the Boeing—all those different side Boeing projects?
SB:
Yeah, right. So the oddball things were done there. Then we finally turned the Boeing
back—the building back to the government. It was never to belong to Boeing. It was
always on loan. So I wasn’t aware of anything that you were talking about. Afraid it
doesn’t answer your question.
PN:
Oh, no. [unintelligible] that’s even better. I was—[laughs].
SB:
Anything else?
01:45:45
[Final questions]
KP:
Do you recall the year you first came to the Seattle area?
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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SB:
Well, certainly, yes. Like I said, most of the time I spent away from Seattle on bases on—
and again, my wife is an incredible person. Everywhere we went, she volunteered to be a
librarian or work at a kindergarten school or—we became part of the community. And it
was going to these holiday places like Massachusetts, which is a well-known holiday
resort, Cape Cod—and to be there in the winter is totally different because you were
thought of as part of the residents, not part of a visit—before, otherwise, you were just a
visitor. And they treated you completely differently. People from Massachusetts are
different, if you don’t know that. [laughs]
So I met the most extraordinary people there, including people who were terribly bigoted.
They were—I employed a black guy, and he could not believe that I was treating him just
like I treated anybody else. The locals just couldn’t really stand it very well. And he
wanted me to recommend him for a job back in Seattle. That was my first exposure to
this problem. So I learned that lesson there and really couldn’t believe it. And he couldn’t
believe that I was completely unbiased and would treat him just like anybody else and
wrote him a glowing recommendation for a job back at Seattle.
Those sort of experiences were very memorable. Nothing to do with what you asked me.
But when I came back to Seattle, of course, I—we rented all kinds of interesting houses
in low-district areas like Magnolia and places, and all kinds of interesting—we’d never
rented before and stayed in all kinds of weird places. So it was sort of interesting to
become acclimatized to the American way of doing things.
KP:
I’d be curious if you had any experience with the Museum when it was downtown or—
SB:
No. No, I know that—I remember when they moved the Red Barn over here and brought
it up by—on the barge and so on and bringing it across and placing it here and launching
it down to where it is now. And I wasn’t involved in any way with anything like that
then. I remember it going on, but I don’t remember being involved. Anything else?
KH:
Those are all my questions.
JB:
Well, I want to thank you for participating in the oral history and all your service. It’s
been good, very good.
SB:
Well, in case you couldn’t tell, it’s been fun from my end, too. [laughter] Thank you very
much, John.
JB:
Thank you.
01:48:58
[END OF INTERVIEW]
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Baker, Sydney J.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Barth, John
Biographical Text
<p>Sydney J. Baker was an aviation engineer who worked for Vickers-Armstrongs, Canadair, and the Boeing Company.</p>
<p>Sydney James Baker was born in London, England on January 26, 1930 to Sydney Baker (a bunting factory owner) and Esme Perrett (a shopkeeper’s assistant). When he was young, his family moved to Surrey, England. Nearby was a Vickers-Armstrongs airdrome as well as a racetrack, which inspired an interest in aviation and cars. During World War II, his father volunteered for the Royal Observer Corps. Baker would help his father and the other men identify aircraft carrying out bombing missions against England. At about age seven, he left home to attend Sevenoaks grammar school, a boarding school in Kent, England. At the age of 12, he received his glider’s license. He became an instructor at age 14, helping to teach injured fighter pilots how to fly again.</p>
<p>After graduating from Sevenoaks, Baker returned to Surrey. Wanting a hands-on job, he joined Vickers-Armstrongs as an apprentice, where he specialized in making wind tunnel models. He attended the local college at the same time. Once he finished his college coursework, he was drafted into the British Army and served with the Parachute Regiment. Once he had completed his military service, he returned to Vickers-Armstrongs as a flight test engineer but now located in Adelaide, Australia. His projects included the Supermarine Scimitar and developing guided missiles for the Weapons Research Establishment in Australia.</p>
<p>When his projects in Australia had concluded, he returned to England, but did not want to stay there permanently. Wanting to relocate to Canada, Baker accepted a position with Canadair, where he worked on the Sparrow missile. When the program was canceled in 1959, he accepted a job offer with the Boeing Company and moved to Seattle, Washington. Among the projects he worked on during his career at Boeing were the CIM-10 Bomarc missile, the Minuteman missile, the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, and the AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) program.</p>
<p>Following his retirement from Boeing in 1996, Baker became a docent for The Museum of Flight. He later joined the Museum’s aircraft restoration team and was instrumental in helping to restore the tail section of T-Square 54, the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. His love of cars also continued throughout his life; he was an amateur car racer and restored old Porsches.</p>
<p>Baker married his wife Janet Keast, a nurse, in 1953 and they had two children, Mary and John. Baker died in September 2022.</p>
<p>Biographical sketch derived from interview, information provided by interviewee, and obituary.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Baker_Sydney
OH_Baker_Sydney_transcription
Title
A name given to the resource
Sydney Baker oral history interview
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Sydney Baker and interviewer John Barth, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, August 29, 2019.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Engineer Sydney Baker is interviewed about his life and his decade-spanning career in the aviation industry. He discusses his work at Vickers-Armstrongs in the 1940s and 1950s and his subsequent engineering jobs with Canadair and the Boeing Company. Projects discussed include the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, the AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) program, and guided missile development. He also shares his experiences as a Museum of Flight docent and his restoration work on the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. Other topics discussed include his school years in England during World War II, his service in the Parachute Regiment, and his restoration of vintage sports cars.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
<p>Introduction and personal background -- Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences -- Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army -- Guided missile testing in Australia -- Career with Canadair -- Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work -- Achievements and notable moments from his career -- Advice for young people -- Car restoration and sports racing -- Legacy of restoration work -- Stories from Army service -- Side projects at Boeing -- Final questions</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08-29
Subject
The topic of the resource
Airborne optical adjunct
Airborne warning and control systems
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Baker, Sydney J.
Boeing B-29 Superfortress Family (Model 345)
Boeing Company
Boeing Company--Employees
Canadair Limited
Engineers
Great Britain. Army. Parachute Regiment
Guided missiles
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Test pilots
Weapons Research Establishment (Australia)
World War, 1939-1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Australia
Canada
England
Germany
Saudi Arabia
Washington (State)
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 48 min., 59 sec.) : digital
Language
A language of the resource
English
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/979ef722e32294067da71a6ca9facc94.mp4
6129210aa200ddb362c4caec54938508
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/e9fd6f6138a950951a803b7f8698fa50.pdf
d8f715da2f20afebf269adbe5808b24c
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Paul Bloch
Interviewed by: Steve Ellis
Date: June 4, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran Paul S. Bloch is interviewed about his military service with the United
States Navy. He discusses his experiences as a CIC (combat information center) officer and as a
bombardier/navigator for the Grumman A-6 Intruder aircraft. Topics discussed include his
combat cruises during the Vietnam War; his assignments with Attack Squadrons 52 (VA-52),
115 (VA-115), 128 (VA-128), and 165 (VA-165); and his experiences with various ordnance. He
also touches briefly on his later career with the Boeing Company and the U.S. Naval War
College.
Biography:
Paul S. Bloch is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a bombardier/navigator aboard the
Grumman A-6 Intruder aircraft. He was born in Berwyn, Illinois on September 13, 1942 to
Walter and Helen Bloch. He attended Morton High School (Illinois) and afterwards entered the
U.S. Naval Academy (Annapolis, Maryland).
Graduating from the Naval Academy in 1965, Bloch next underwent flight training at Naval Air
Station Pensacola (Florida), NAS Meridian (Mississippi), and NAS Kingsville (Texas). He
received training in the Grumman F9F Cougar and Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, but eventually
decided to transfer out of aviation and return to the Surface Navy. He received orders to the USS
Sterett (CG-31), where he served in the CIC (combat information center) during operations in the
Gulf of Tonkin.
In 1969, Bloch decided to return to naval aviation. He underwent naval flight officer training at
NAS Glynco (Georgia) and trained as a bombardier/navigator in the Grumman A-6
Intruder/Prowler at NAS Whidbey Island (Washington). Over the course of his A-6 career, Bloch
flew with Attack Squadrons 52 (VA-52), 115 (VA-115), 128 (VA-128), and 165 (VA-165) and
served in a number of squadron executive positions. He also served two combat tours in
Southeast Asia aboard the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63), flying a total of 265 combat missions
against Vietnam and Laos. Other assignments from Bloch’s Navy career include studying
operations research at the Naval Postgraduate School (Monterey, California), attending the U.S.
Naval War College (Newport, Rhode Island), and serving on the staff of the Seventh Fleet. He
retired from active duty in 1991.
Following his retirement, Bloch continued to be involved in military activities. He contributed to
the Gulf War Air Power Survey and taught at both the Naval Postgraduate School and Naval
War College. In 1998, he was hired by the Boeing Company and worked for 18 years in their
Phantom Works, Defense, and Commercial sectors.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Bloch is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps and is still an active volunteer as of
2019. He has also contributed a number of A-6 artifacts to the Museum’s Vietnam exhibits.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Steve Ellis is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps. He worked as a sports reporter
and freelance writer from 1967 to 1992, and served as an intelligence officer for the U.S. Air
Force and Air Force Reserve for thirty years. He is the son of Robert Ellis, an aviation mechanic
and co-pilot who worked for United Air Lines and their early subsidiaries. His father’s stories
about the Golden Age of Aviation instilled in him a lifelong love of aviation history.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background .........................................................................................5
Early aviation experiences ...........................................................................................................6
Favorite aircraft ...........................................................................................................................7
Experiences at the Naval Academy .............................................................................................8
Flight training .............................................................................................................................8
Service overview ....................................................................................................................... 10
Gulf of Tonkin assignment aboard the USS Sterett (DLG-31) ................................................... 12
Terrier and Talos missiles ......................................................................................................... 16
Helicopters and other aircraft on the USS Sterett ....................................................................... 17
Flying the Grumman F-9 Cougar............................................................................................... 18
Grumman A-6 Intruder program and assignment at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island.............. 19
Service with Attack Squadron 52 (VA-52) on the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63)........................... 22
Bombing and mission logistics in Southeast Asia ...................................................................... 27
Second cruise aboard the Kitty Hawk......................................................................................... 31
Mining missions ........................................................................................................................ 39
Bombing targets and tanker operations ...................................................................................... 41
Naval Postgraduate School and service with Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115) ............................ 45
A-6 developments ..................................................................................................................... 48
Mount St. Helens eruption (May 18, 1980) ................................................................................ 49
Training pipeline and missile development ................................................................................ 52
Contribution of artifacts to the Museum’s Vietnam exhibit ........................................................ 54
Careers after leaving active duty ............................................................................................... 55
Closing thoughts ....................................................................................................................... 56
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Paul Bloch
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
PAUL BLOCH:
Okay.
STEVE ELLIS:
Greetings. My name is Steve Ellis, and we are at The Museum of Flight
in Seattle on the 4th of June 2019 for the purpose of interviewing Paul Bloch. Paul was a
naval aviator and a defense analyst and instructor. Paul, thank you for taking the time to
participate in The Museum of Flight’s Oral History Program. It’s a great honor having
you here with us. We’ll start out by getting some of your background information. Please
state your full name as you prefer it pronounced and then spell it.
PB:
My full name: Paul Stanley Bloch, B-L-O-C-H. By the way, I am not a naval aviator. I
am a naval flight officer.
SE:
Naval flight officer.
PB:
I was a naval aviator. That’s a long story. Most of my career is a naval flight officer.
Bombardier/navigator.
SE:
When and where were you born?
PB:
Berwyn, Illinois, 13 September 1942.
SE:
Did you grow up there as well?
PB:
Yes.
SE:
What were your parents’ names?
PB:
My dad was Walter Laddie Bloch. My mom was Helen Josephine Dolores Skora Bloch.
SE:
And what were their professions?
PB:
My dad was an upholsterer. Actually, during World War II he made B-29 engines. My
mom was a housewife, although she also, before she got married, was in keypunch in one
of the very early computer operators with the Western Electrical Company in Cicero,
Illinois and then subsequently got back into computers after we went—started going to
school. She got back into computers and did computers for work.
SE:
And do you have any brothers and sisters?
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PB:
I had a brother who was quite successful as a real estate manager. He died about 10 years
ago. My sister still lives in Brookville, Illinois.
SE:
Where did you go to high school?
PB:
Morton High School in—first Cicero and then Berwyn. They built a new school while we
were there. So we went two years in Cicero, two years in Berwyn.
SE:
When you were in high school, did you have any particular interests as far as future
studies, anything like that?
PB:
Well, actually, go back to the fifth grade, there was a book called These Are Our People
that was part of the reading series of the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago, and there was
a story in there about these kids who get interviewed—or they talk to this gentlemen in
his blue coat about—and he’s an admiral. Turns out he’s the admiral of the fleet. And I
said, “Gee, that would really be neat to go to Annapolis and be a naval officer.” So, yes.
[laughter]
00:02:35
[Early aviation experiences]
SE:
So what led you into aviation?
PB:
Basically, the idea that it’s a neat thing to do and then also the people who were involved
in aviation. At the Naval Academy, it seemed all the really cool guys were aviators.
SE:
And did you have any interest in flying or anything like that while you were still in, say,
junior high school or high school?
PB:
I went out with a—a guy who was sort of in Scouts, he had an airplane, and I went out
and flew with him a couple times. Once at least. And then just the idea of flying was of
interest, and as I say, when I got to the Academy I saw that that was really a sort of neat
thing to do.
SE:
And what was your—did you like to build airplane models at all? Did you do much of
that?
PB:
I did do that, actually, yeah.
SE:
Did you ever have a favorite airplane model or a first airplane model?
PB:
I built a Corsair. I built some biplanes. That’s a good question. I still have my—I still
have a box of that sort of stuff. Ships. Navy stuff, yes.
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SE:
Did your family ever go to any air shows as an outing?
PB:
[laughs] Yes. That’s actually an interesting story. We were coming back—my uncle had
a place up on a place called Loon Lake, and we were coming back from it. We’d go up
there for weekends or go up there to visit my uncle, and then he lived out on the lake, so
we’d go swimming and all that. We were coming from that, and they were having an air
show at O’Hare Air Base, which was going to be converted into O’Hare Airport. And so
they were showing a final show, and the Thunderbirds were there. Well, my dad said,
“Well, it’s a detour,” and try to get in. We got in the most massive traffic jam you ever
saw in your entire life. It was one of those things. And we just—my dad was up to his
ears, and so we just kept—as kids, we just kept quiet because we were in this miles and
miles of basically a gridlock traffic jam.
SE:
On that first airplane flight, what do you remember about it? When you went up with the
Scout?
PB:
It was fun. A little bit leery because, of course, that was—I was eighth grade, maybe.
And we were flying this airplane, and he gave me the controls and let me fly the thing
around. And so it was slick.
SE:
Was there any particular individual that really became kind of a mentor or an inspiration
to you when you were growing up?
PB:
Not really. A lot of people. I mean, the standard. My dad and some of the neighbors, our
Scout leaders. The standard kids when you were growing up in the ‘50s.
00:05:02
[Favorite aircraft]
SE:
Changing gears a little bit. Looking back on your career in aviation, what would you
consider to be your favorite airplane?
PB:
[laughs] Dumb question. A-6, of course.
SE:
How about least favorite?
PB:
Oh, I don’t think there is one. All airplanes have some beneficial—least favorite? Why
would I have a least favorite airplane?
SE:
Okay.
PB:
No. They’re all—they all do something.
SE:
And how about your favorite airplane at The Museum of Flight?
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PB:
Well, again, we’ve dedicated a monument to the A-6. I really like that. And, of course,
that’s what I have all the stories on.
00:05:40
[Experiences at the Naval Academy]
SE:
So at what point did you decide to attend the Naval Academy?
PB:
In fifth grade.
SE:
Fifth grade. Okay. And what was your experience there like?
PB:
Like everybody else’s. [laughs] [unintelligible 00:06:00] can’t use here to describe it, but
it was great. I loved it. You have to put it in context. In the ‘50s, there was a program
called Men of Annapolis. It was on TV. And that was after I decided—I really liked it. It
was on there. And they also had a program, West Point, that showed the Naval Academy.
And when I got there, first plebe, I’m sitting at the table getting yelled at by this guy, and
he says, “What are you smiling about?” And I realized I was there. I had achieved it. And
so—and yeah, there was ups and downs. If you don’t threaten to quit three times, you
haven’t had a plebe year. I don’t know whether that’s the case anymore since they’ve—
the place is a piece of cake now with—but there was high points and low points, you
know, so…
SE:
And within the Naval Academy curriculum, what did you focus your studies on?
PB:
Math and physics was my degree. Although you had your serious academic stuff, but
then you also had your—and most of what I did there was sail. You sailed the ocean
boats. So I raced at Bermuda. I raced to Newport. Raced on weekends. When the rest of
the brigade was going to football games, we were out there racing with the big boats
against the civilians.
SE:
And at what point were you able to focus on a career in aviation with regard to the
Academy experience?
PB:
Oh, you have to make your choice after—first-class year—the last year, your senior year,
you have to make a choice of where you want to go. And so you choose your billets. I
chose aviation.
00:07:39
[Flight training]
SE:
So after graduation, where did you go for flight training?
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PB:
Long story here because I went to Pensacola for flight training. Went down there, went
through basic at Pensacola. I went to intermediate up at Meridian, Mississippi. I went to
advance and got my wings in Kingsville, Texas for—you know, three separate airplanes.
And then subsequently went to A-4s at Whidbey—or Lemoore, California. Had some
trouble with the A-4, got out, became a black shoe for a while, really missed aviation, got
back in as an NFO in the A-6. And so I sort of bounced around before I settled on the A6. And then the A-6 was home, of course.
SE:
So going back to your training experience, what aircraft did you fly at Pensacola?
PB:
Well, at Pensacola, you started out in the T-2—the T-34, the teeny-weeny, little prop
airplane that you did at Saufley Field, which is now shut down, of course. And then you
move from there to intermediate, and that was up at Meridian, Mississippi, and you flew
the T-2, the Buckeye, T-2A. And then I was one of the first classes to come down—you
come back to Pensacola to VT-4, Training Squadron Four, where you flew the T-2B, the
advance Buckeye with two engines where you did guns—or air-to-air gunnery and carrier
qualification. And once you finished that in your basic training, then you move from
there to advance and you went to—I went to Kingsville, Texas, where I flew the F-9, the
Cougar that we have here.
SE:
And there was something different about the Cougar experience, based on—or compared
to previous classes, in the sense of the cockpit configuration?
PB:
Well, yeah. It was a real airplane. I mean, so you had a single-seat airplane. All the other
airplanes had been designed as trainers. The Cougar was designed as a fighter, so there
were—yes, there were two-seaters that were trainers, but then there were also single-seat
airplanes, so it was the first real single-seat airplane you flew into—you got into. So it
was a great—
SE:
At that point, was there much emphasis on simulations? Or—yeah, simulators?
PB:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, you had—like that was a joke up at—they had Link Trainers. And
Linkhead was not only that little box that we have here. There was all sorts of other kinds
of trainers you would get in and train. Well, they had a building over at Mainside at
Meridian, and so you would—and whenever you left the squadron area, you had to sign
out where you were going during the day to keep track—if you weren’t flying, if you
weren’t going to a class or something like that, and you were leaving the squadron area,
you had to sign out. Well, guys would sign out to the “G-Links.” In other words, as if
they’re going away, but what they really mean was the golf links. And so a little old
Training Command joke.
SE:
So did you have any time in the Link Trainer?
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PB:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you had a certain amount of time in the trainer in addition to flying
in the aircraft.
SE:
And how effective was the Link Trainer as part of your overall training program?
PB:
I mean, it wasn’t like flying an airplane, but it was procedural trainers that you basically
did the procedures, such that if you got into a situation, you would flip back to what you
were trained in, so…
SE:
So you get to the A-4 and what happens?
PB:
The A-4 was a slick little airplane. The one here is a single-seat, of course. [unintelligible
00:10:58] we call it an A-4F. It is not an A-4F. The F had a hump on the back. So I flew
the A-4A, the B, the C, and the E, and the TA-4F, which was a two-seater training
version. They had various kinds of things. You’d fly—basically, you did—went into a—
because we were preparing to go to an operational squadron, and I did everything in the
squadron except carrier—well, I carrier-qualed, went out and carrier-qualed, and then I
had some problems, so I thought—at that time thought, gee, it’s not the—this is probably
not a healthy thing to do. So as I say, went black shoe for a while, went to a surface—be
a surface officer for a while and then—but missed aviation and came back in, so…
SE:
So when you transitioned to the black-shoe Navy, the surface ships, what was your
career—I guess your classification, as far as your career and stuff?
PB:
Well, I went from aviation—a 1310, a naval aviator, to an 1100, which was just straight
surface line. And so actually it worked out very well because I went and joined a ship
at—I joined the ship Sterett at Long Beach. Ten days later, we changed homeport to
Yokosuka, Japan. There was a carrier and—what do you call—a squadron, destroyer
squadron, based in Yokosuka. And I slipped right into it because we were going down
and we were doing air control work in the Gulf of Tonkin supporting the Vietnam air
[unintelligible 00:12:28]. As I came with aviation experience, slipped right into the CIC
position, combat information center position, controlling aircraft. That’s actually what
I’m going to talk about.
00:12:37
[Service overview]
SE:
Let’s go back for a moment. I want to create a little bit of a timeline. So what year did
you graduate from the Academy?
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PB:
Graduated the Academy in ’65, actually stayed around the Academy because I—my first
job was actually teaching sailing. They bring the plebes in in the end of June. I stayed at
the Academy teaching sailing to the plebes. I sailed these 44-foot yawls.
At the end of that summer, Pensacola was really backed up, and they were taking all the
petty officers they had on the East Coast and sending them to places like Chu Lai and Da
Nang as they were ramping up operations in Vietnam. So they needed some supervisory
[unintelligible 00:13:15], so I stayed on. I requested an extension through December. I
was supposed to start a class in September, a class down at Pensacola. I stayed on until
December, basically as the maintenance officer of all the big sailboats we had. So I had
12 44-foot yawls, and then I had six other boats. The largest thing I had was a 100-foot
schooner that I was a maintenance officer for. And having sailed my whole time at the
Academy, I was—I helped out, took—had a group of guys who basically we maintained
the boats. So I stayed there. Okay.
So in December, I went down to Pensacola, started pre-flight and went through pre-flight,
which is six, eight weeks, something like that, and then went out to Saufley Field, VT-1,
in February of ‘66. Finished Saufley, oh, like, April, May, did solo—soloed in the T-2.
You had about 18 flights, as I recall. Then went up to Meridian, Mississippi for basic
training, was there—that’s ’66—I did basic from—let’s see—March through November
of ‘66. And then November ‘66, I go back down to Pensacola for VT-4, Training
Squadron 4. That’s December and January, part of January, and then do carquals in the T2 and then go up to—in January, I go out to—there’s a—I’m missing a date there. No,
I’m already in Mississippi—in Kingsville, Texas in January because I go home from
Christmas from there.
So some—I think in December I moved down to—December ‘66, go to—I’m at advance.
I get my wings in May of ‘67 at Kingsville, go out to Lemoore, then I was at Lemoore
from June of ‘67 to June of ’68. And that’s when I joined Sterett. I’m on Sterett from
June of ‘68 till October of ‘69. That’s when I come back, go to Glynco, Georgia for a
short while, and then I wind up in October in—at Whidbey Island in A-6s. And the rest is
history.
SE:
So basically you’re going to the Sterett in the summer of ‘68?
PB:
Yes.
SE:
Okay. And you’re going to be on the Sterett for about a year?
PB:
Year—about 14 months, actually. Fourteen, 15 months.
00:15:36
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[Gulf of Tonkin assignment aboard the USS Sterett (DLG-31)]
SE:
So could you explain in some detail what your responsibilities were when you were in the
Gulf of Tonkin?
PB:
That’s exactly what we did. We were at a place called—there was two stations in the
Gulf of Tonkin, South SAR Station and North SAR Station. North SAR Station was
called PIRAZ, Positive Identification Radar Advisory Zone, and it controlled some
fighter CAP—that was combat air patrol—that was sort of right off Haiphong. At
Southern SAR Station, we were the strike support ship, triple S. And we not only had our
fighters under our control, but we also assisted the—at that time, we were only bombing
south of 19 North, 19—the parallel, 19 North. And so we weren’t bombing the northern
part of North Vietnam. And so what we did, we controlled some of the fighter cover and
then we also assisted the attack aircraft that were going in. So like I—and then I slipped
into a position where I was working a console assisting the fighter.
Interestingly enough, a lot of the guys I had trained with in A-4s were now on ships.
They had gone—I was supposed to go to VA-93, which was the Blue Blasters, on Bonnie
Dick. I didn’t, but a lot of the guys who I trained with did. So I would then be on control.
They would launch from the ship, and I would have them on my circuit controlling them
while they were over the beach, assisting them while they were over the beach. What we
did with the attack aviators was keep information like, “Hey, so-and-so squadron was
here a couple hours ago, and they found some trucks just south of Vinh on this road on
Highway 1.” Or we’d have information about—we were tied to several of our airplanes.
We had actual fighter control-trained enlisted personnel who were controlling the—who
would do intercepts. So they would have each—there were two of them on separate
consoles, separate frequencies, and they would each have a section of F-4s or F-8s, our
airplanes.
And then there would be other—like, if two squadrons were launched—or two ships were
launched at the same time, you may have as many as four squadrons—four sections of
two aircraft each of—and so the remaining F-4s would be on my frequency, but in the
strike control frequency. Then I would have all the people going in for attack missions.
And they were doing such things as doing road reconnaissance. They were going after
particular targets. They were going—and I would assist them as necessary. So we would
have—basically assist them in any way we could to make their missions easier.
We were also tied to another aircraft, our EC-121 out here. The Super Constellation was
an aircraft—well, it was called—the designation was EC, I think Electronic
Countermeasures, but that may be the wrong designation. Electronic Something 121. And
it was over the thing, and it was listening for signals. And so it would—they would hear
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transmissions coming that the MiGs were going to be in a certain area or something like
this, and so they would give out warning messages on the guard frequency, which all
aircrafts and all ships monitor. Say, you know, it was the call sign Deep Sea. “Deep Sea
on guard, bandits, bandits, vicinity Haiphong. Deep Sea on guard. Deep Sea Zero Six on
guard, out.” And then you knew that there were MiGs operating. Or they’d say SAM,
which, in other words, they had indications there were—missile radars were active in a
certain sector.
They would also track other kinds of radars, like, as I told you, the Bar Lock. One thing,
we saw patterns. When I first went out, I was sent out early to go to the USS Long Beach
and to talk to them about how they were conducting their operations since we had not
been in the Gulf. It was a brand-new ship. Sterett was a brand-new ship and new
construction, was at Long Beach for about six months and then was heading out to
Yokosuka to join the squadron there. We hadn’t had any combat experience. And so I
went out to the Long Beach to get a debrief, and they have a—there was a piece of gear
called the WLR-1, which was to listen for signals. And one of the things they said was,
when the Bar Lock air-search radar at Bai Thuong comes on the line, that means they’re
going to be operating MiGs in the southern part of Vietnam. And so put that in my mind.
So between our equipment and the Deep Sea equipment, the EC-121 Super Constellation
aircraft, we would be listening for signals. And so when that Bar Lock came on, we knew
the MiGs were going to be coming down and operating in our area because the airfields
that most of the MiGs operated—by the way, MiGs: the MiG-15, the MiG-17, and the
MiG-21, of course, which is also in our situations. And so the airplane we have right next
to the F-4 in the thing was the aircraft that we were most familiar with.
SE:
While you were there, what was the farthest south you noticed MiGs going?
PB:
Oh, they’d get down into Route Pack One, which is down [unintelligible 00:20:45]
Lake—well, south of Vinh, in that area. In fact, we had a—again, I was talking—between
what we had on strike control frequency and what we had on the air controls frequencies,
the fighter control frequencies, they would—we could see things.
The other thing we could do with our equipment and with the Deep Sea, the Super
Constellation, was see each—like, our MiG-21 had a little radar called the spin-scan,
which is an air—it’s air-search radar on board the aircraft. We could see—and each one
of these, you could tell that there were more than one aircraft. So what the North
Vietnamese would do is they would have a high section that we would see on our radar
scope, with our surface-search radar, our air-search radars, and we’d see a section high,
but we would have indications that there were actually four aircraft there. So we’d see
two airplanes—we have skin paint on two aircraft, but there’d be two more in the area.
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And so what they would do is they’d have one high and they would have one down in the
valleys, the intent being we would then have our air controllers go after the ones that
were high, and then when they passed over, these two from the valleys would come back
and try to get on their tails. So our trick was then, when they—we sent one section in,
we’d have a second section drag. When that second section came up from the valleys,
then they would get jumped by our second section. So there would be a big furball over
the area.
So that was—so that, as I say, that was what the ship was doing with our F-4s and the
other airplanes, the F-8s. Depending on the size of the ship, the smaller decks, what they
call the 27-Class Charlie, which were World War II designs, so you had things like the
Hancock and the Bennington and the Bon Homme Richard. All these had nicknames, but
Bon Homme Richard was the Bonnie Dick. And they had the squadrons. They had used
the small aircrafts, the F-8s, our—the Last of the Gunfighters. And then the bigger decks,
the Coral Sea and the Midway and [unintelligible 00:22:52], they had the F-4s. And so
that would be the fighter cover, and then the bombers were mostly A-4s. They had—each
ship would have—air carrier would have two squadrons of A-4s, two squadrons of F-4s,
and then some other cats and dogs, jammer aircraft. The A-3s were the jammer aircrafts
in those days. So…
SE:
During the year you were there, how many different aircraft carriers do you think you
worked with?
PB:
That’s a good question. Normally, there were three on the line, and they probably turned
over every six months. So six or seven, at least.
SE:
And it would be a blend of the two types?
PB:
Yeah. You would have—normally, the way they worked the day, you had the noon-tomidnight carrier, the midnight-to-noon carrier, and then when someone first came on the
line, they’d play 6:00-to-6:00. So you broke up—so three carriers, and you would have
the—like A-6s, we primarily worked at night. And that was our big thing, so it
normally—but there would be three on the line. And normally—and there were also
every—they’d work for like seven days and then there’d be a stand-down day. And so
you’d relax and repair our planes and things like that.
SE:
So you really landed in an excellent position in that job, didn’t you? [laughs]
PB:
It was, yeah. Yeah. I subsequently became navigator, but I continued to work in CIC,
controlling—help to control all the—the other thing about it was we would go into port,
and I would—in fact, the first time I really got to know the A-6, I went in and we’d get
together at the club down at Cubi Point. And I would know some of the guys or I would
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know where the aviators were and would start talking to the aviators and say—our call
sign was VOLO Song, and so when we were on the strike control frequency, I would say,
“Okay. I’m VOLO Song,” so they would—and they’d know who we were because we’d
use the ship’s call sign. Harbor Master was the call sign for the South SAR Station. Red
Crown was the call sign for the North SAR Station. But the call sign for the strike support
ship was the own ship’s call sign. And so I would get there, and guys would know me as
VOLO Song. And they’d say, “Hey, VOLO Song, come on over.”
Well, it turns out the captain of our ship was in the club one night, and they were
saying—they were calling me VOLO Song. I says, “Hey, guys, I’m not VOLO Song.
That’s VOLO Song.” So these aviators went over and grabbed the captain, brought him
back, and told him what he needed to do to help them, what they really needed. Because
he was the first commanding officer of the Sterett and he had been in the Terrier
development program, so his whole mission in life was to shoot down a MiG with a
Terrier. And so that’s his—when we were going out there, he said, “I want to shoot down
a MiG with a Terrier.”
SE:
We need to back up for a moment here.
PB:
Yeah. [laughter]
SE:
Here we go. Okay. First, Cubi Point was in the Philippines.
PB:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Everybody knows that. [laughs] Cubi Point was in the Philippines. Yes,
Cubi Point was our base at Subic—Subic Bay was north of Manila, and it was—the
shipyard at Subic Bay was where they maintained the ships. Across the bay from the
Subic Bay shipyard was they had moved part of the mountain down into the water and
established an 8,000-foot runway, and that’s where the carriers were based. And then so
our ships, we would go in port, we would take the airplanes off, fly them into Cubi Point.
There was sort of a world-famous officers’ club there. In fact, there were five officers’
clubs at the—in the Subic Bay complex. The most famous was the Cubi Point [Q?] Club.
The joke was if you stood at Cubi Point, every one you ever knew in the whole world
would walk by you because—and so…
SE:
How many port calls did you get while you were on your time with the Sterett?
PB:
Well, of course, our home was Yokosuka.
SE:
Right.
PB:
So we tried to get up there. The interesting thing they did with the ships and these things,
we would relieve on the 30th and 1st of the month. So there were two jobs. You had the
strike support ship, and you had the Harbor Master. And so what normally we would do,
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like, if we were relieving USS Long Beach on the end of September, we would go in and
at 11:00 p.m. on the 30th of September, we would become Red Crown—or Harbor
Master. And then—but Long Beach would retain the call sign of the strike support ship.
Okay. Then at 1:00 in the morning on the 1st of October, then we would achieve the
other [biz?]. In other words, we had our time in the month—if we could claim any time in
the month, we could get combat pay. And so that was the trick, was—so we shifted that.
So the point was we would go down there for six, eight weeks at a time, sometimes be
down there for six, eight weeks, go into Cubi for a short—couple of days, come back out
on the line, and then go home. Because, of course, what we wanted to do is our families
were in Yokosuka, so we—I wasn’t married at that time, but they wanted to spend as
much time in Yokosuka as possible.
SE:
And what’s your grade at this point?
PB:
I went there as a lieutenant JG and made lieutenant very shortly after I got there. So it
was O-6—O-3.
00:28:26
[Terrier and Talos missiles]
SE:
Okay. Anything else you want to add about Sterett? Oh, I know. I want to come back to
something. Explain the significance of the Terrier.
PB:
Oh, that’s another good story, by the way, too. The Terrier was a surface-to-air missile
that was basically designed for carrier defense, and we—by that, we had also just
introduced a Navy tactical data system. So between the SPS-48 radar, which was our airsearch radar, which was high-tech, and then we had other fire-control radars that
controlled the Terrier. The Terrier was a 35, 40-mile missile. There was another missile
called the Talos, and the classic story there is the Talos was a missile that could go about
80 miles. And the story there is Long Beach. We did not have Talos. We had the Terrier.
And this was part of the defensive system because we had the carriers south at a place
called Yankee Station, which was just sort of south of Hainan and east of, of course,
Vietnam. And it was about a 100-mile drive to get to the combat areas.
And so one time, the North SAR Station, one of their captains, they had MiG
indications—and Long Beach was doing the North SAR Station, the PIRAZ station. They
had indication that MiGs were coming out, and they had contact on the MiGs coming out.
So the MiGs were coming out. They vectored a section of F-8s after the MiGs without
telling them. So in other words, these F-8s—and, of course, if you shoot down a MiG,
that’s a Distinguished Flying Cross. So they’re heading for these MiGs, and they’re under
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air control, and the MiGs are heading after them. And all of a sudden from the sky come
two—the Talos went up to about 80,000 feet, then came down. And so all of a sudden,
about 10 miles ahead of these F-8s that were looking to shoot down these two MiGs, you
know—boom, boom. They take them out with Terriers. [laughs]
SE:
Terriers or Talos?
PB:
Talos. I’m sorry, Talos.
SE:
So Talos got—they got two kills with Talos?
PB:
Oh, yeah.
SE:
Wow.
PB:
And, of course, torqued off the F-8 guys, who hadn’t been told these things were coming
and had visions of a Distinguished Flying Cross in their sights because they were going
to jump—they figured they could handle the MiGs. So MiG-21s, of course, the same
airplane we have here, so…
SE:
So getting back to the Terrier, you have the skipper that wants to make it work, I guess?
PB:
He didn’t—it never happened. They never came out. It turns out the same ship Sterett,
two commanding officers later, was out there. The MiGs did come out, tried to attack the
fleet, and the commanding officer of the Sterett shot down some MiGs with the Terrier.
So Captain Christofferson [Edward A. Christofferson] didn’t get his dream, but another
Sterett commander did, so…
00:31:15
[Helicopters and other aircraft on the USS Sterett]
SE:
Anything else you’d like to add about your experiences there on the Sterett?
PB:
Let’s see. I told you about the Bar Lock at Bai Thuong. The EC-121. One other thing we
did was we had—we have an aircraft that’s a Coast Guard—it looks about the same size
as an H-3. The other thing, the North SAR and South SAR—why they were called SAR:
North Search and Rescue, South Search and Rescue—was we had the H-2 Clementine
aircraft aboard as ones that would get—if people got shot down, they would go in and
pick them up. And we also had an H-3 about the size of that helicopter we have out here,
H-34 or something like that.
SE:
H-52, I think it is.
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PB:
52. Okay. About that same size, we had armored versions of that that would come out
from the carriers and stay onboard our ship. And we had one case where I was controlling
a guy and I hear fireball on a shoot. I identified where, put an X down there, and we sent
our H-3 that we had on board in to pick the guy—a guy named [Harv Ickle?]. It turned
out [Harv Ickle?] had been shot down twice. So this was his second shoot-down. So they
went in, picked him up, and brought them out. So that’s another function of that strike
support ship, was we had helicopters on board to compensate.
We have—one of the docents is a helicopter combat support squadron. HC-7 was the
squadron that did that. We have one of the docents who was in that squadron who I knew
when we were in combat.
SE:
Very interesting.
PB:
What else? Anything else in that—let’s see, [unintelligible 00:32:52] notes. [consults
notes] Strike. No, just the fact the ships that we—we have the A-4 here. The A-4, the F-8,
and the F-4 were the three primary airplanes that we were controlling in that period of
time. And the A-6, also. The A-6 was—the big decks would come out with the A-6.
That’s the first time I saw the A-6. And I went to the squadron, got a tour of the ship, and,
in fact, met some guys that I subsequently served with in A-6s in Attack Squadron 52,
which was the squadron that introduced me to the airplane, and then I subsequently was
in that squadron, so…
SE:
Okay. Take a break for just a second.
PB:
Quick break.
[production talk]
00:33:57
[Flying the Grumman F-9 Cougar]
PB:
The F-9 was neat because we went to Kingsville and at that time Kingsville was—they
were just getting—the F-9 was due for replacement by the A-4. This was in ’67, I was
there. And I think the last—they held it to ‘71 or ‘72, and then the A-4 came in to be the
subsequent airplane. But at that time, we had F-9s at Kingsville. We had F-11s, the old
Tigercat, at Beeville, the other advance training base. And it was just—as I say, it was the
first airplane you had that was a single-seat airplane. It had been a combat airplane, and
you were flying it.
The old term Grumman Iron Works—it was built by Grumman—and it was the Cougar.
The Panther first with a straight wing, and then they put the bent wing on it to make it the
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Cougar. Just to reinforce the term Grumman Iron Works, I went up on a flight with a guy
named [Partridge?], as I recall—[Partridge?] or [Pardington?]—and we were call sign
Bear Flight. And I think we were going out for guns. We were joining up and then go out
and do gunnery, air-to-air target practice. And because I—so we took off and then I was
banked up looking for him trying to join up with him, and I couldn’t see him. So I then
level my wings for a while, and right there was a banner, a line, and an aircraft. And I
was sitting there saying, “Oh, gosh.” And so I pushed the stick over and go—[makes
sound effect]—and I think I miss it. So anyway—so then, on guard, somebody comes up
and says, “Will the aircraft that hit the banner east of Kingsville Field please come up on
guard?” [laughs] So I said, “Oops.”
So the point was I dove and this cable that they were—they had this sort of a banner,
more like an advertising banner, and you’d go down and you’d shoot at this thing, do this
air-to-air gunnery training. And so I had—there was a tow aircraft and then the line and
then the banner. Well, I had taken the line, which was a wire, and sliced off about 18
inches of my vertical stabilizer. [laughs] And so I got—so I joined up with my lead, the
instructor that I was leading, and joined up with him. And he checks the aircraft off, we
do a slow fight, they put me on final, I’d come back in on final and then get out of the
airplane and look and there’s 18 inches of my vertical stabilizer missing. So I was sitting
there saying, “Good old Grumman.” [laughs] The term Grumman Iron Works fits.
The tie here, of course, is the commanding officer of that squadron was a guy named
Commander [Lolands?]. His call sign was Holly Green because he had been in Heavy
Six, the eighth—flew A-3s out of Whidbey. A-3, the Skywarrior Douglas airplane. And
he had his car decorated with Holly Green. It was the call sign of that squadron, and that
was his nickname and that was his call sign, and so he had his car decorated with Holly
Green markings. The key is that he still lives on Whidbey Island. Yeah. I see him at—if
you want to go—see a Thai café south of Whidbey, you go there on Sunday mornings
and you’ll see Captain [Lolands?].
So anyway, so the F-9, in addition to being a great airplane to do final training, was a real
piece of work as far as its construction, so…
00:37:30
[Grumman A-6 Intruder program and assignment at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island]
SE:
Okay. So how do you get from the Sterett into the A-6 program?
PB:
Well, you decide you want to get back into aviation, so you go up to Atsugi Naval Air
Station up at—which is north of Yokosuka. It’s down in Japan—in Japan. You go up
there, get a flight physical, see if you’re still qualified, and then you write a letter saying,
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“Hey, I want to come back into aviation.” And so—and then very quickly there, since
they had invested so much money in me in aviation, I—they didn’t have to go through
the naval—normal naval flight officer training. I just have to finish the advance jet
training course at Glynco, Georgia. So I came off Sterett, went to Glynco, Georgia for
like six weeks, and then, because I previously had aviator wings, I just did six weeks of
training in advance navigation training in the T-39 aircraft, and I got NFO wings.
And then luckily it was—again, it was by squadron—or basically class standing that you
chose, and I chose—wanted A-6s and I chose A-6s at Whidbey. And they had started a
class, but they—I was able to get out late and start the class early, so everything worked
out well out there. So went to—and that would be—got out there in October of ‘69.
SE:
And which model of A-6s did you have then?
PB:
At that time, A-6As.
SE:
Yeah.
PB:
So you had the—well, A-6As—well, there was something called PAR, which was
Preventative Aircraft Rework [possibly meant “Progressive Aircraft Rework”]. Yes. And
so you’d have PAR mods, and so as they were improving the airplane, they would put in
a fix. So you’d get into an airplane, and you may have different things. So they were
continually improving the airplane as they were aiming towards getting [unintelligible
00:39 :19]. Because like the computer we first had in the thing was a rotating drum with
these little read/write heads. And I want to say we had 6,000k of—or 6k of memory or
something like that. And these read—this thing was spinning around, and these little
read/write heads would actually lay the information on there. So it was really a very basic
system, and you had to be very careful when you’re, of course, taking [catch?] shots with
this thing that the thing was running because otherwise you could score the drum. And it
was a chromed spinning drum, and then you had chrome on it, and that’s what actually
was carrying the signals.
I was an avionics division officer, and so I was—all the guys who maintained all this
equipment worked for me. So I was pretty familiar with how this stuff could break, so…
SE:
So what was your impression of Whidbey when you got here?
PB:
Oh, fell in love with it. [laughs] I mean, you drive cross country. I’ve been in California a
lot. I’ve been on the East Coast a lot. I was in Glynco, Georgia, which was a real garden
spot. And then drove cross country, and so you drive—you came over 10—Highway 10
at that time. 90 wasn’t built yet. Came over 10, went up, got on the ferry, drove up the
island, and you come over—Whidbey Island, I’d come over this hill and to the—there’s
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this beautiful little air station below me. To the right—or left I look, and there’s the water
and the Olympic Mountains. To the right is more water and the Cascades and Mount
Baker, a 10,000—or 12,000 feet of snowcapped mountain. I says, “Wow. I don’t know
where else there is [unintelligible 00:40:55]. This is pretty nice.”
SE:
So what was local flying like at Whidbey?
PB:
Oh, great. That’s why [unintelligible 00:41:01]. Because that’s the thing about it. It was
out there in the boonies. Like, for instance, when you’re flying at Lemoore, to get to the
training ranges up at Fallon, you had to cross over the paths—the flight paths going into
San Francisco. Whidbey was out there in the boonies. I mean, we used to take off 1-3-0.
One hundred ten miles was Yakima, Yakima [unintelligible 00:41:24]. South of there, 30
miles to Arlington IP, and you’re on the bombing range at Boardman. Nobody cares.
And the prettiest flying in the world. You’d come out of Boardman, you’d drop your
bombs at Boardman, come up and pick up Mount Washington, and fly right up the center
of the Cascades to Mount Vernon. Absolutely gorgeous flying. I mean, because you’re
down there—the only people up there are A-6 drivers and backpackers. And just flying
into the mountains, and it’s just absolutely gorgeous. And then all sorts of training
opportunities, so…
SE:
Yeah. Over the years, they had a number of accidents with the A-6s out of Whidbey
going down to Boardman. Are you familiar with that at all?
PB:
[laughs] Funny you should mention that. I was, for a while—this would have been in
1980, before I went to 165, my squadron CO tour. I had some time to kill, and they made
me executive officer of the training squadron up there, Attack Squadron 128. And that
was when we were having all these “crashes.” [makes air quotations] In fact, I remember
the headline in the Seattle Times or the PI, one or the other, “Death Aircraft Strikes
Again.” And the trouble was we hadn’t had an aircraft—an accident in like three years,
and then there were some where we had a number of them, both A-6s and EA-6s, and it
happened, like, every couple of months.
And, in fact, one night, I was going off flying at night and some guy was—an EA-6 was
coming in for approach—landing on Runway 13, the south runway. Did an approach turn
stall and went in. And so it was just before—so we were taxiing out to the—in this
airplane. They’re doing the recovery operation for this guy. The point was, as executive
officer of the training squadron, we were always there. And so one of these crashes
would happen, and all the reporters would come rushing up from Seattle wanting to talk
about the A-6. And so, of course, we were always there, so the wing commander would
always send them over to—[laughs]. So the skipper would get a call from the admiral
saying, “Hey, we’ve got another group of reporters,” and then the skipper would crawl
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through the little portal between where we had our two offices. “Hey, XO, we’ve got
another group.” So I would then get a bunch of guys to talk about what a great airplane
the A-6 was. Because it wasn’t—it was just a matter of timing, because we hadn’t had a
lot of accidents, and then you couldn’t talk about the accident because they’re doing
investigations. And you want—there’s the aircraft accident investigation, where you want
people to tell the truth so you find out what’s wrong, and then there’s the JAG
investigation, which is the legal—there’s two separate investigations. But you don’t want
to make comments about what possible causes were because, of course, they’re talking to
people.
So, actually, it worked out very—there was a guy named Peyton Whitely. I think he’s
still around town. He came in one time—and this was ‘79, ’80 timeframe. And we
weren’t getting paid squat. And I said, “Hey, listen. You guys want a real story? Go down
to the hangar deck and talk to the guys in the shops there, because there’s people there
on—they’re second-class petty officers on food stamps.” So he went down and then
wrote a series of articles that were very positive as far as what the—in fact, I recall a
bunch of our junior officers sitting there and they had their flight jackets on with all the
patches and everything like that, and he started out the article with something like,
“Rarely these days do you see someone as proud of what they do as the aviators at
Whidbey Island who fly the A-6 aircraft.” [laughs] Or words to that affect, just really—
because our guys, it was a matter of—the things that were happening were maybe—
maybe were caused by the pilots themselves or—but it wasn’t the airplane. It was—there
was a lot of other things happening, or things were happening overseas.
So the point was that was a lot of newspaper hype. That was what we were concerned
about. I was feeling it personally because I was the XO there. I was having to drag a
bunch of my—in fact, interestingly, I would recall some of the people in the article, the
picture I have—I still have that article—one was Jamie Kelly, who retired as a three-start
admiral. He’s still in the area, actually. He’s now living over in Port Townsend—or Port
Hudson. And Z-Man, Zortman, Jim Zortman, also made three stars. And so these were
the guys I had in the training squadron as the instructors we had in those days, so…
00:45:46
[Service with Attack Squadron 52 (VA-52) on the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63)]
SE:
So you’re at Whidbey. How long are you there before you go on your first cruise?
PB:
Let’s see. I got there in October, and I deployed the following October. Because you have
a training—you go through the training squadron to get up to your speed in your aircraft.
And it just worked out perfectly. I was sitting in schedules—and I was always trying to
bum hops—and I was sitting in schedules, and Fred [Holmes?], who is the ops officer of
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the squadron, calls over on the squawk box to the schedules officers there and says, “Hey,
listen. [Rabbit Hash?] has just gotten divorced and has gotten custody of the kids. He
can’t deploy. Who do we have that we can must pump—you know, send very quickly—
to Attack Squadron 52, VA-52?” And I’m standing there, so I say, “Paul Bloch.” [laughs]
And so Butch Williams and—Dave Williams. Dave Williams is still in the area here.
Dave Williams says, “Well, Paul Bloch’s here.” And so my name got penciled in.
So I went to the squadron—the point was I was able to get that squadron and do two full
combat tours with the VA-52. That’s why I got lots of stories to tell. So it turned out—so
I got there in October, deployed the next October, because once I got to—I went to the
squadron like in May or June after finishing all the hops in the training squadron and then
worked up with the squadron for about three months, and then we deployed. And then—
SE:
And what aircraft carrier did you deploy on?
PB:
Kitty Hawk. Yeah. Which is sitting over in Bremerton scheduled for scrapping, which is
disaster because it’s—it was a great, great ship.
SE:
And the Kitty Hawk was—kind of had an unusual status, in that it was at—in Japan
permanently, wasn’t it?
PB:
No, no. That was later.
SE:
Oh, okay.
PB:
Yeah, that was later. Because that’s the thing. The Kitty Hawk was just in the normal
rotation. It was based out of San Diego. And Midway—in ‘73, Midway made a
deployment, and they got sent out to Japan. They started the Overseas Family
Homeporting—no, Overseas Family Residency Program, OFRP. And Midway was the
first carrier to do that. Midway did that from ‘73 to ‘91, and then when she came back,
Kitty Hawk went out there. And Kitty Hawk was—no. I take it back. Independence went
out there. And the Independence was out there for four or five years, and then Kitty Hawk
took over for that. Blackjack Samar [Jack J. “Blackjack” Samar], who was an A-6 guy
who served here, was the CO of the ship at that time. He had the Kitty Hawk when it was
out there. Then Kitty Hawk was replaced by the Lincoln, and then the Lincoln—and now
Truman’s out there.
SE:
Okay.
PB:
I think.
SE:
So you’re on the Kitty Hawk. And what is it like on your first cruise?
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PB:
Great. I mean, it was—well, the first cruise—this was, again, in October of ‘70 through
July of ’71, so we were out there for about ten months, nine or ten months. And at that
time, we weren’t bombing North Vietnam, so most of what we were doing was Laos. So
we were going over and doing all the strikes over in Laos. And we had various kinds of
missions. You would call over—and when we first started going over there, we’d call—
the Marines had Monkey Mountain at Da Nang, which is in the northern part of South
Vietnam, and they had a control, so we’d talk to them. We’d cross the—get off the ship,
head for Da Nang, cross over the country of South Vietnam at Da Nang, and then contact
an aircraft called Hillsborough. And then Hillsborough, depending on what we were
assigned that mission that day, would then direct us to whoever we were working with
that particular day.
The kinds of missions we flew, Commando Nails, where you would work with an air—
forward air controller. And so you would call—talk to Hillsborough, and he’d say,
“Okay. Go to the…” And then we had TACAN stations, and they would, “Go to the 3-20 radial at 75 miles off of TACAN Station #75.” And you’d dial that in, and you’d get—
and then you’d follow that radial and meet Covey or Nail or those approved—they were
air controllers, and they would then work—you’d have a target that they would work.
The Covey, the FACs, were OV-2 airplanes or OV-1 airplanes, little—basically sort of
like a Cessna 172, about that size aircraft, and they would be flying close to the ground
looking for targets on the Ho Chi Minh trail. And they would have a target, and they’d
have trucks behind—in a bush or something, or in trees—and they would put a smoke in
and say, “Okay. See my smoke?” You’d be up there, and they’d be down way below you.
And, “You see my smoke? Go 300 meters north of my smoke towards that hill and
attack. That’s where your target is.” And so we’d work after them.
At night, these same aircraft had lights on the top of the aircraft, so it looked like a cross.
And so you’d see them—they couldn’t be seen from the ground, but above looking down,
you’d see where they were. And they would throw a log down, and so they had this
burning thing, like a big flare. They’d put it on the ground, and they’d said, “Okay. See
my log? Again, 300 meters north of my log, south of my log, east of my log, there’s
trucks in the trees or something like that.” So, that’s one kind of mission.
SE:
Before you go on, so when you depart the carrier, you’re basically turned over to the—
eventually, you’re going to get turned over to the FAC and he’s going to take care of
whatever you’re going to do that day?
PB:
Right.
SE:
What kind of bombloads are you carrying?
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PB:
Normally—it depends on what we were doing. You’d carry, normally, 22 Mark 82
bombs, 22 500-pound bombs. Or if you were doing, like, road reconnaissance work, you
might carry what they call Rockeye. Rockeye is a cluster bomb. I should have brought
some in. I have one. It’s a cluster bomb, and the Rockeye had 257 bomblets in a canister.
And you’d have—basically take like 10 Rocks—yeah. Yeah, 10 Rocks and eight 82s.
You’d carry a mix of Rockeye and regular bombs. And so that’s a carry.
Or if you were—they were going for a road or trying to work—or stop a road, you’d have
what they called boomers, tickers, and hummers. And you’d have Mark 82—the Mark 82
was the bomb, and then what kind of fuse you put on it depended on what it could do. So
if you put a regular explosive fuse on it, when it hit the ground, it blew up or dug a little
ways and blew up. Then—but you had a timer. You have one of the timers. So you’d put
these timer fuses on there, and they’d blow up anywhere from three to 36 hours
afterwards. And then you had what they called hummers, the DST-36 or DST-40, and I
forget—DST was Destructor, I think was the term. But it was a mine sensor. It was a
flux, magnetic flux detector, such that if you had any metal on the approach—as you
were—as long as you were approaching the weapon and the flux was increasing, it would
not cook off. The minute that flux decreased, in other words, that closest point of
approach for whatever was approaching it, it would cook off.
So you’d take—if you had, like, 22 bombs, you may have six explosive immediately, six
tickers, and a mix of boomers, tickers, and hummers. And then you’d drop these
packages along the roads. They would see the bombs go off and think we were just trying
to get a road cut, and then they’d go out there and then one of the timed fuse would cook
off. And they said, “Whoops. We’ve got a problem.” Or they’d be worried that they’ve
got mines in there that were, you know, mines, so they’d go outside doing minesweeping
and the tickers would cook off. So it was a way to try and prevent the flow of supplies on
these roads, multiple—sort of a spiderweb fashion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail using that.
So that’s another kind of load we’d carry when we were doing anti-road work or going
after bridges, going after places where they could cut the road somehow.
SE:
Who would determine—would it be the FAC that would tell you which type of bomb to
drop on which target or was it your choice?
PB:
Normally, you did one load of it. You’d have—you didn’t do multiple runs over there
after a while. They had something called the Quad 50, which—Quad 40. Quad 40. They
had four barrels and—
SE:
Quad 23s, weren’t they? Quad 23-millimeters?
PB:
I guess it was. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, the point was they got those sitting
over there, so you really didn’t want to do—in fact, a good friend of mine was in 196
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when I was on Sterett. Again, he came out to visit me. He rode the helicopter over to the
ship, and we came over and visited. And subsequently, he went out on a mission and got
shot done in Laos. And the guy who was leading the mission was Ned [Lizey?], who was
up at Whidbey when I was going through the training squadron. He was in the training
squadron as one of the trainers. And he was the lead on that aircraft. And they were
trying to do a road cut, and they—what do you call—were making—like, making their
fifth pass on the—they were trying to do two bombs at a time to do a really precise road
cut. And there hadn’t been any AAA in the area, antiaircraft artillery in the area, so they
went and were going in and Jack got shot down. So he’s a—anyway, so he was—so the
point of it, you didn’t make multiple runs, or maybe you’d make a multiple run, but the
FAC would move so he’d—if there was any AAA reported in the area, you wouldn’t
want to hang around.
SE:
How big a factor were service-to-air missiles?
PB:
That’s another thing—that’s another kind of mission we actually had. I didn’t talk about
that because the A-6—we had special aircraft, the Passive Angle Tracking—PATARM
A-6Bs. The A-6Bs originally were airplanes that were high-wing life, so they gutted them
and did—all they did was fire the Standard ARM missile. The Standard ARM missile—
I’ve talked about a Terrier. Take a Terrier off a ship, stick it onto the side of an airplane,
put an anti-radiation head on it and then a means to sort of sense that head, and you could
then designate the missile to a particular signal and kill that radar. So we had special
airplanes that had the whole system still, so we could do—they could do bombing
missions, and then the passive—it was called PATARM: Passive Angle Tracking Antiradiation Missile aircraft.
And so we’d take a Terrier—two Terriers basically, with these anti-radiation heads, go
out there, and we’d take these—we had three of these special airplanes. We’d take them
over to Laos, and because there weren’t any surface-air missiles in Laos, but they were
over in North Vietnam, and occasionally they’d have one near the border and they’d
shoot. And so what we then did was we took these PATARM airplanes and ran a
racetrack pattern along the border between North Vietnam and Laos such that, if these
guys came up, we’d hose them down with a PATARM—or with a Standard ARM.
And then the other airplanes had a missile called a Shrike, which is a lot shorter range.
The standard—the missile that we—come to think of it, the Terrier—the Standard ARM
would go 60 miles. So the Terrier must have had more than a 25-mile range, now that I
think about it. I wasn’t a gunnery guy, so—you know, I was a radar guy. But we had a
60-mile area—because our dream was we’d pick up a spin scan. You know, the aircraft—
the little radar they had on a MiG, and do an air-to-air kill with a Standard ARM. And it
never happened, but that was our dream. [laughs] We’d really hose the air—because the
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fighters couldn’t at all do anything like that. But the point was, that was another mission
we had. We had this Standard ARM patrol in Laos protecting all the bombers that were
over in Laos against possible—what do you call—surface-to-air missiles, the SA-2
Guideline missiles that the [unintelligible 00:58:04]. And the radar they had was the Fan
Song radar, which was their designation. They’d light up a Fan Song radar. There was a
particular PRF—pulse repetition frequency—and a pulse rate, and you could—one of
these [unintelligible 00:58:22] with the frequency, and at that particular rate, you’d know
it was a Fan Song, and you’d then designate it to the missile and say, “Go kill.”
SE:
You had a cockpit display that would show you that?
PB:
Yeah.
00:58:31
[Bombing and mission logistics in Southeast Asia]
SE:
What percentage were daytime and what percentage were nighttime in this time period
for you?
PB:
Most of the work we did—probably about 50/50, now that I think about it. Laos—in
those days, Laos was pretty much a—you’d go over there and you’d work with the FACs
during the day and then go over at night. Other missions we did, by the way, there was
something called Combat Skyspot, and that was when we were working like—there were
passes. What they do with the supplies—supplies would come into North Vietnam on the
northeast rail line or into Hai Phong Harbor and then would come down through North
Vietnam, and they’d go across on the Annamite Mountain Range over into the Ho Chi
Minh Trail. And there were a couple of passes that—going through the mountain ranges:
Mu Gia, Ban Karai and Ban [Mithap?], and there’s another. There were four passes.
Anyway, the point was they’d come across in those mountain passes and then head down
the trail.
And so a lot of the times, they just wanted to dump ordnance into the Mu Gia Pass area,
and so they had radars in various places where they would track the aircraft and then
would say, “Okay—” They’d get you on a thing, “Okay. Now release your airplanes.”
They would have the ballistics, and they knew what altitude you were at, the target they
wanted to hit, and they would just basically—you were being controlled by the ground
stations. We didn’t do a whole lot of that, but a lot of other airplanes did. The F-4s, for
instance, didn’t have much [unintelligible 01:00:03]. When there was clouds, we could
do—handle clouds because we had—I had my radarscope photography. We would find
hills and things like that. We could, in fact, pick up on radar and then bomb using offset
bombing to hit targets that were in that area.
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But what we would have—what they would do with us would be buddy bombing. In
other words, some A-7s or something would—or—yeah, A-7s and A-4s would come
over. They had—if there were clouds below them, they had no way of hitting a target, so
they would tack them on with us, and then we would take them to our target, and when
our bombs released, they would release their bombs. And we would be using our system
to do radar bombing. And so—
SE:
Well, you raise a point that we take for granted, and that was the incredible allweather/all-night capability of the A-6’s bomb nav system. So can you talk a little bit
about that—that history of that and how difficult was it for you to manage?
PB:
Oh, not very difficult at all, actually. [laughs] No, it was a great system. You had—of
course, it wasn’t what we had subsequently. That’s why I say is we get the A-6Es and the
A-6E TRAMs [unintelligible 01:01:15] because then you’ve got a laser designated—
you’ve got an infrared radar—infrared scope that you can see. You go from radar picture
to the thing.
But we did that and you just thought in terms of—you look at a map and you say, “Okay,
how is that going to look on radar and what will be radar significant?” And so you’d
come up with—you’d identify points like—there were hills. [unintelligible 01:01:39]
Point 40 was a very prominent hill, and there was sort of a bend in a river that you could
pick out. So you’d pick up that offset, and then you’d be able to bomb things in that area
because you could say, “Okay, I want to bomb 4,000 yards from that point on a bearing
of 1-3-0.” And you’d bomb on it.
So the key of using the radar system to do designated—that’s another aspect of this, by
the way. Again, bringing in our airplanes, what they did with the Ho Chi Minh Trail was
they put sensors on the trail, and they had both vibration—seismic sensors and oral
sensors, sound sensors. And you’d have these sensors on the trail. They would get
tripped—as trucks would be coming down the road, they would trip these sensors. The
signal would go from that sensor to our favorite EC-121 aircraft, which was running on
an orbit sort of the western side of Laos over Thailand, and hitting these sensors and then
it would see these sensors being tripped, send the information down to a building in
Nakhon Phanom, Thailand called Igloo White, and they would analyze as these signals
were being tripped. These sensors were being tripped. Because of the EC-121 relaying
the signal, they would say, “Okay, there’s a convoy coming down this road. It’s going to
be at this point at this time.” We would then be up—we, the A-6s, would be up on CAP
stations, Combat Air Patrol stations, and they’d say, “Okay, Attack this DMPI, Desired
Mean Point of Impact, 52-06.” And we had a card where it said 50.
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So we’d put those coordinates in and attack this point at this time from this direction.
And we had a moving target indicator capability that we would then be able to pick up
that track coming down and see the convoy coming down and then conduct an attack on
it. Or we’d just—if we didn’t pick it up, we’d bomb—figured were somewhere down in
that area. Because we were hitting that road segment where we knew there was, in fact,
trucks. So that—another tie between one of our airplanes and then the A-6s that we had
and then all the electronics that they were trying to use to try and stop this flow of
interdict—this flow of supplies coming down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
SE:
And, of course, the challenge is that you’ve got shaky weather and the jungle canopy, so
it’s hard to see.
PB:
Yeah, yeah. That was the thing about it. I have movies where you—the trucks would
hide. And there are some places that were—like, for instance, we also did—again, we
have—in the Vietnam exhibit, we have the Lam Son 719 as a big thing. We went in to
support that. That was a thrust in—I want to say March of ’71, March, April of ’71—
where the Vietnamese Army went up Route 9, which went from Khe Sanh, which was
relatively famous, a place in North Vietnam—or in South Vietnam—up Route 9, which
went into Laos to a place called Xepon. And Xepon was called the Xepon Gunnery
School. There was two places. Xepon Gunnery School and the [Vin San?] Gunnery
School. And because this was a place that they brought stuff across the passes, and then it
got—there was a big supply dump at Xepon, and then they would parcel it out to other
trucks and elephants and people and everything like that and [unintelligible 01:05:13] it
down the trail.
But Xepon was a big thing, so what they wanted to do was the Vietnamese Army to go
up and capture Xepon and try and shut the trail down. And it turns out it didn’t work out
very well, but a lot of our H-46s were—no, Hueys—were involved in—as gunships or as
carrying Vietnamese troops or whatever, a lot of U.S. We didn’t have any ground forces
involved in that, but we had a lot of our aircraft involved. We flew combat operations in
support of them. When they would get into a firefight, we would go up and assist them.
SE:
What issues were involved in avoiding conflicts with the Air Force?
PB:
We’d basically—well, that’s what I did a lot on Sterett, of course, was—well, you had
route packages in Vietnam. So Route Package One and Two were Air Force. That was
sort of the southern portions of North Vietnam. And then Three, Four, and Five and Six
Bravo were Navy packages, which were sort of from Thuan An north towards the coast.
And then Six Alpha was sort of west of—Hanoi was the dividing line. West of Hanoi
belonged to the Air Force. So we had it chopped up by geographic areas.
SE:
But what about in Laos?
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PB:
Oh, Laos, you were under the control of the Air Force. I mean, those were Air Force
controllers. And they just kept us apart. I mean, that’s what Hillsborough did.
Hillsborough was—basically, you had—you came up with a mission number, and that
mission number was assigned to a particular target, and that had all been determined by
Seventh Air Force. So they were running the whole war over there, so it was—there was
no conflicts. There was plenty to do, and they’d assign certain targets—we’d be on a
target and we’d be working the target, and then there’d be an Air Force F-4 squadron
come in and be the next guys in line. So they were—it was all coordinated. It wasn’t—
SE:
And so when you went on the Ho Chi Minh Trail missions, how many aircraft in a flight
or…?
PB:
Normally just one. Most of what we did was one aircraft. One or two. Sometimes we’d
go out in a section. Didn’t really do a whole lot of multi-mission stuff. As I say, the A-6
is a single airplane. And I got a flight schedule. I think we had individual mission
numbers. And so we went out there and joined them. And, of course, the FACs were glad
to have us. Because an F-4 would call up and he’d have 10 minutes of playtime, and we’d
call up and we’d have 30 minutes or 40 minutes to be able to hang around. So he’d be
glad to have us because he’d put us off on the side, work the fast movers, the F-4s, and
then he’d be able to work us at his leisure. So we were—yeah.
SE:
Anything else you want to mention about the first cruise there?
PB:
Let’s see. [consults notes] Combat Skyspot, buddy bombing, [unintelligible 01:08:22].
We did do—occasionally, we did what they call Blue Trees, where they would run photo
missions into North Vietnam and you’d have a—we had the RA-5C photo bird, and then
they’d have fighters with it. Basically, one of the guys’d find it, and then we’d be doing
STARM patrols for that. We’d have Standard ARM patrol off the beach so that if
somebody lit off on one of these photo reconnaissance—those were called Blue Tree
missions. And then occasionally they wanted to slap the hand—they were shooting
missiles at the guys in Laos or something like that. I want to say one time we did a
combat ops against North Vietnam in sort of a slap-the-hand fashion because they’d been
shooting missiles at the guys in Laos. So…
SE:
So on the recce missions, you had—the rules of engagement would have allowed you to
go after a SAM if they went after the recce bird?
PB:
Yeah, yeah. And that was the same thing. If we were in Laos on the Standard ARM patrol
and they shot a missile, they—if they came up with their Fan Song radar, we could hose
them. What it did was it picked the radar signal and then killed the radar. And after we
started a lot of them on the second cruise, we saw that it had some affect because
previously they had the Fan Song—it was like a trailer, a truck trailer, and on a top of it
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they had the radar. And so—the Fan Song radar. And then we started shooting the
Standard ARMs, and we noticed that there was a truck and then a long cord and then way
out in the jungle was the radar. Because we figured that—because what you were killing
was the radar with the Fan—with the Standard ARM missile. So [unintelligible
01:10:07].
01:10:07
[Second cruise aboard the Kitty Hawk]
SE:
Okay. So your first cruise concludes.
PB:
First cruise concludes. We head back—this is—we go back in July of 1971, and we’re
not supposed to go out until June of 1972. I come back, get married three months after we
go back. Get married in October. We start work-ups in—we actually go down to Fallon
for air wing bombing op practice—or bombing exercises in December. We come back
and go down to the boat for what was—the first of was supposed to be like six
preparation periods before we actually deploy in—I want to say April or May, we were
supposed to go out. Anyway, so we’d gone out for like six days. My wife actually came
down for a little continuing honeymoon, and she goes back. And we’re supposed to get
underway at 8:00. We don’t get underway at 8:00. We were supposed to get underway at
10:00. We don’t get underway at 10:00. About 11:00, the captain comes on the
[unintelligible 01:11:11] and says, “Hey, guys, they need another carrier in the Pacific, in
WESTPAC. So they think we’re ready, so we’re going out.” And we hadn’t—we’d only
been off the ship for six months.
SE:
Yeah.
PB:
And we hadn’t had that much turnover in the crew. And we had done carrier ops, and so
AIRPAC looked at us and says, “You guys are ready.” So we deployed 10 days after that
announcement. So we—instead of deploying in June, we deployed in January and went
out because they had intelligence that the Easter Offensive was going to happen and they
wanted another carrier out for that. So Kitty Hawk was the—[laughs]—we volunteered
out there.
SE:
So you’re on the Kitty Hawk both times?
PB:
Yeah.
SE:
So you get out there the second time around and—when did you arrive on station,
approximately?
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PB:
I could look at my logbook. I want to say we got—February. January, February. And we
get out there and—go out there, the first line period was we’re going out there and doing
the same old stuff we had been doing. This is March. So we’re out doing the same stuff
we did previously. And it was interesting because I had—we had rearranged crews. We
had a lot of guys leave at the end of that first service. Go ahead.
SE:
One thing I wanted to ask you about on your first cruise, did you always fly with the
same pilot or did you guys mix it up?
PB:
Usually. No, usually. I flew with Joe Favaro, who was a classmate of mine from the
Naval Academy, although I didn’t know him at the Naval Academy. He was in the same
class as I was at the Naval Academy. And so we flew together mostly. Occasionally,
you’d shift. He’d be sick or he had the duty or something like that, and I’d fly with
somebody else. But for the most part, we flew with Joe Favaro.
SE:
How much difference did it make who the pilot was?
PB:
Not a whole lot. The procedures were standard. I mean, we had checklists and you did the
same things, and so it was—you got to know somebody else, I mean, but it wasn’t a big
thing. So you flew—you’d fly with somebody else, it was a little different. Yeah, like Jim
Howard would fly—would fly with Jim Howard. He was the CAG operations officer, Air
Wing Commander staff operations officer. He had been an A-6 guy. So I’d fly with him.
Or I’d fly with the air wing commander. Hunt Hardisty [Huntington Hardisty] actually
became a four-star. So you’d fly with other people.
SE:
Okay, I’ve got another question for you. So you have the different types of aircraft on the
carrier.
PB:
Right.
SE:
Is it cliquish at all as to who is flying which type of aircraft? In other words, do you the
A-6 guys kind of hang out with the A-6 guys and the F-4 guys hang out with the F-4
guys?
PB:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, primarily. Yeah, you’re with your squadron. I mean, you go out on
liberty and things like that, you went out with your squadron for the most part. Yeah. So
on these—the squadrons stay together. There’s some—some squadrons are singing—so
like Attack Squadron 192, the World Famous Golden Dragons, they were the ones who
were featured in Bridge to Toko-Ri [The Bridges at Toko-Ri]—again, flying Panthers at
that time, not Cougars. But they were a singing squadron. So they would get into the bar,
and one of their guys was a blessed reverend, and he was a piano player. So he would get
to the piano and start playing songs, and they would sing along. They had all these dirty
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songs they’d sing. Or I can’t say that. Scrap that. [laughs] They’d have all these fun songs
they would sing.
SE:
Okay. Well, getting back to the second cruise, so you’re doing your normal routine
initially?
PB:
Yeah, initially we’re going to Laos. And on the way over there, we had all these briefings
about, “Oh, the SAMs are going to do this, and the SAMs are going to do that, and
[unintelligible 01:14:33].” And I had a new guy I was flying with, John Little, who was
on his first cruise. And I says, “Don’t worry about this. We probably won’t see this.”
[laughs] And subsequently we go out there and we do the thing, and then Easter
happened. We’re in port on Easter, and I go to church, and I’m heading home from
church, heading—
SE:
In port where?
PB:
Oh, Cubi Point.
SE:
Okay.
PB:
Cubi Point. And so we’re at Cubi, and I’d gotten a room at the bachelor officers quarter,
gotten off the ship and got a room somehow, which was hard to do. And so I’m heading
back to the BOQ, and someone says, “Hey, call—get to the ship. We’re getting
underway. The offensive has started.” You know, which we had all been expecting. So
sure enough, I went down to the ship—and I want to say I stayed ashore and flew an
airplane out. We had flown our airplanes off and—because when we were in port, we
would fly training missions.
And so we—yea, verily, we’re out there. We’d get off, get on the ship, and get the
carrier—take the carrier out, and the next day we’re flying combat strikes. And the
offensive had, in fact, happened. What we did that first couple of days was we worked
assisting—the U.S. forces were primarily—the ground forces were gone by that time. All
we had was air over there helping them and then, of course, the advisors. And so we were
assisting—we’d go down into South Vietnam. The only time I really fought—flew in
South Vietnam was supporting the advisors we had with the squadron. They would have
their Vietnamese unit, and then we would be flying air support in support of the
Vietnamese units. They were basically fighting the attacks from the North Vietnamese.
So we flew a couple days of that, and then we started bombing the North again and we
started bombing—in fact, I flew into Ubon Ratchathani in Thailand because we were
doing an Alpha strike, one of these big strikes, which we had not done the first mission.
One of the big strikes at Dong Hoi, which was down in Route Pack Number One, but it
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was one of the first towns north—their big cities north of the demilitarized zone. And we
were on a big strike in there, and so what we wanted the Air Force to do was they had
these chaff pods that they would fly on either side of our—this air wing, as we were
flying in with all these, like, 30 aircraft, they would put a screen of chaff to prevent radar
detection of our air wing. And so I was—we were—Mike [Cockrell?] and I flew in there
because I guess we were assisting. CAG was going to lead it, but he wanted us—we were
doing the liaison work to set up the thing. And we also carried a laser-guided bomb in
because the Air Force was going to designate for us. We were going to practice with a
laser-guided bomb, which was the first time we had those.
So that’s—the trick was that the Easter Offensive came on Easter. Easter Day, Sunday.
And that was beginning of April, and then from then on, then we started going north and
doing all the great stuff we did up north. So…
SE:
And the technology’s really changing, isn’t it? With the guided munitions and the bigger
packages and all that stuff?
PB:
No, in the sense that we didn’t use the guided munitions very much. In fact, we never
dropped another laser-guided bomb that whole cruise. However, what changed was we
had been doing these targets in Laos with just interdiction work trying to cut roads and do
Combat Spyspot and hit trucks and trees and things like that. When we got into North
Vietnam, we were doing real good A-6 work. So we were going after powerplants, and
we were going after coal storage facilities—or petroleum storage facilities. We were
going after the stuff we had really trained for in A-6s, which is they look at a target,
figure out how to get there, how you’re going to get in, what it looked like on radar, how
you were going to approach it, then what you’re going to use for offsets. And we were
really using the A-6 to its full capability, which was just—my first time I flew a real
honest-to-goodness A-6 mission, it was just like hog heaven. I mean, this is the kind—
this is what the airplane was designed to do.
SE:
Sure. In nighttime, daytime?
PB:
Nighttime. In fact, the key mission, the first mission, we went back into Haiphong after
not being there for four years. And so they had built—I’ve got the chart, actually, in the
folder I brought in. But they had nine missile sites around Haiphong, and what we were
doing—again, we had bombed Dong Hoi. We had bombed Vinh. We had bombed [Than
Wah?]. And so now we were going in after—and what the—again, mission—Museum
airplane, the B-52s—A-6s from three different ships were going hit the missile sites that
were around Haiphong. After we hit the missile sites, then the B-52s were going to come
in and hit the petroleum product storage area, the PPL.
SE:
And this is in the spring?
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PB:
This is in—yeah.
SE:
So the B-52s are going up there in spring?
PB:
April the 16th.
SE:
Really? I didn’t know that.
PB:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s—people say, “Oh, they weren’t there until Linebacker II.” That’s
bullshit. No, they were there—that was the thing about it. We did this—we went in and
hit the missile sites. Because I—it turns out, I—we were scheduled for the missile site at
Cat Bi Airfield, which is just south of Haiphong, and there was a missile site there. And
so it turns out I was flying with John Little, who was this new newbie, and they teamed
me with Joe Favaro again. We had—he was still on the squadron. We had swapped—so
he and I flew that mission. They basically took the guys who were a little more senior,
and we got those missions.
And so anyway, we took off, and I couldn’t get my system on the line. So I went out—we
went off and drove around for a while. I finally got the thing working. I said, “Okay,
we’re ready to go.” But we had missed our target time, so we called back to the ship and
said, “Hey, we’re ready to go. Let’s go in.” And so we start heading for Haiphong, and it
was the most spectacular thing you’ve ever seen. You have to see it. Combat at night is
really exciting because you had SAMs going this way and you had Standard ARMs going
this way and you had all this AAA going up. It was like—it was an incredible lightshow
taking on. And we were 40 miles south. I had picked up the Do Son Peninsula, which is
just south of Haiphong. I picked up the Do Son Peninsula. I had it on radar. We’re 40
miles south of it, but at night a missile—you have a light—a missile in the sky. It looks
like it’s coming right at you. And I says—Joe says, “We’re right on top of this!” I said,
“Joe, we’re 40 miles away. They may be shooting at something, but they’re not shooting
at us yet.” [laughs]
So anyway, we then get up there and I went in, in fact, found—we went from Do Son, the
aim point, to—there was a river and a bridge, and I picked up the bridge and picked up
the thing. So we dropped on the site. It turned out we hit a couple [SAMs?], not much.
But the point was it was just this incredible lightshow taking place, and so the—but it
was a—that’s the technology the A-6 was designed to do. And so we had that mission.
Then, of course, we went out and then the B-52 came in after we had—they’d shot all the
missiles at us. So the B-52s came in and hit the PLO dump. So we had these joint
missions. But as I say, when we did Dong Hoi, the F-4s were providing chaff pods for us.
We were flying cover for the B-52s.
SE:
Right.
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PB:
There was a lot of—people talk about, “Oh, there were a lot of problems between the
Navy and the Air Force.” Bullshit. So I can’t say bullshit. [laughter]
SE:
That’s okay. So basically you’re just doing SAM suppression on those missions to keep
them off the B-52s.
PB:
No, no. Well, that was that mission.
SE:
Yeah, that mission. Yeah.
PB:
But then we—
SE:
Oh, yeah. You did other stuff.
PB:
Then, of course, then we had Alpha strikes. You’d put together a squadron, and you’d
have, like, six A-6s and 12 A-7s, and then you’d have a Standard ARM A-6 doing patrol
or doing part of the package, and you’d have A-7 armed Shrike—or Shrike-armed A-7s.
And then you had fighters cover and then you had fighters in the CAP stations, and you’d
go in against a particular target with, you know, 18 bombers. And so this would be going
against—well, it would be—if you went against the petroleum product storage area with
a Navy Alpha strike, you’d have this whole conglomerate of airplanes you would put
together.
And then so that was during the day, we’d be, like, doing Alpha strikes or individual
missions. At night, we’d be doing A-6 stuff, single airplane strikes into a particular target
you were looking for or they’d give you a road segment that you’d go out and see if you
could find trucks around the roads, things like that, so…
SE:
What kind of jamming support did you have?
PB:
Well, we had the EA-3s. EA—EKA-3s, the Skywarriors, that—because the A-6s made
their first cruise—VAQ-132 came out—I want to say June or July of ‘72. [Rosie
Rollins?], who had been our XO—in fact, [Rosie Rollins?] was one of the guys at the
Naval Academy who I used to sail with. He was a boat officer [unintelligible 01:23:50],
and he was one of the guys who really—you talk about people who influence you. [Rosie
Rollins?] was at the Academy and says, “You ought to fly. That’s where all the fun is, in
flying.” And so subsequently, he’s the executive officer when I’m schedules officer of
52, of the first squadron I go to. He is the executive officer, and he’s flying with a guy,
Doug McCrimmon, who is our skipper, who—those two had flown together in SPADs, in
A-1 Skyraiders as their first tour as ensigns or something like that. So this was
impossible. And so the CO would look at the—I’d be making the schedule, and he says,
“Cut the XO off. He’s getting too much flight time.” [laughs] And then the XO would
walk up and says, “Give the skipper more nighttime. He’s not getting enough nighttime.”
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You know, these two guys are carrying on this fight they’ve been having for 15 years
since they graduated from the Naval Academy.
So anyway, so the point is [Rosie Rollins?] was—he left our squadron. Len Salo [Lennart
R. Salo] came out, who was the first naval flight officer to command a squadron, an A-6
squadron. He relieved [Rosie?] and then became CO. [Rosie?] went and took over the
first EA-6B squadron to deploy, VAQ-132. And so he brought one of their airplanes over
to the Kitty Hawk to show off to the Kitty Hawk. But prior to that point, we had—on the
small decks, we had the A-1 Skyraider. Another friend of mine actually flew the
Skyraider, which was a jammer. An A-1 was the SPAD, a prop airplane that would—did
everything. And then the A-3 Skywarrior would—and what we’d do is—like when we
were doing a night mission, we would arrange—there would be like three of us going in,
and we had arranged to be going in at different times because then we’d have the
Skywarrior and the Standard ARM aircraft right when we were going into our target, they
would be in our vicinity giving us jamming support.
When you’re doing an Alpha strike, you had had them—same thing. They would
accompany you to the coast. They would not go over the beach but would stay off and
jam radars that were on your route of flight into the target area. And similarly, the
Standard ARM bird would—you’d usually have two of them and they’d be doing a
racetrack, so somebody would always be pointing towards the target area, so if anybody
came hot they could shoot. And so then they would do this racetrack so you always had
someone pointing in the right direction.
And then, of course, you also had the EC-121 listening, and so he would—if he heard
SAM—again, he had this—the call sign, you know, “SAM is in the vicinity of Haiphong.
Deep Sea at zero six, on guard, out,” you know. So he would also be looking, and he
would feed his information into the [unintelligible 01:26:33]. So we basically knew. And
then, of course, you had—on board the aircraft you had your own sensors, so that you
would fire up and you would know you were being tracked by a surface search or a fire
control radar.
SE:
How active were the MiGs at night?
PB:
Sometimes they’d be active. It was interesting. They wouldn’t come down at—we’d—
like, I remember we were to the east of Haiphong. In that area there, there was the [Han
Gai?] coal processing plant and the Cam Pha mines, and then there was—
SE:
East or west?
PB:
East of Haiphong.
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SE:
Okay.
PB:
Cam Pha—yeah. You go—some of the targets we hit, we had Haiphong and then you had
the powerplant—and Uong Bi was a powerplant. You go east of there to a place called
[Han Gai?]. And [Han Gai?] was a coal processing point and a trans-shipment point
and—because east of [Han Gai?] on a rail line was the Cam Pha mines. So they would
mine the coal at Cam Pha, bring it down the rail line, sort it at the trans—the coal
processing plant, and then put it on barges and take it from the barges to Uong Bi or
Haiphong, the thermal powerplants. Well, those were all legitimate targets we would
strike. We wouldn’t actually strike the mines. The mines weren’t our target, but the transshipment point and the coal processing plant and the barges and the Uong Bi and thermal
powerplants and, of course, petroleum product storage area were all targets.
And so at night, we might be—so the point is you’d go in there, and then you’d work
those roads. We’d be down at—low to the ground. The MiGs would come out, and we’d
see them overhead, but they had no way to pick us up out of the dirt. So you’d see them
overhead, and you’d see their—they’d actually be out there with their lights off, and we
could care less because they weren’t able to pick us up out of the traffic. So we’d just had
the—and you didn’t have to get that low. My guideline was you look at the—where you
were flying, see the highest terrain, add 1,000 feet, because they still couldn’t get you.
We lost one aircraft here, the one 502 we have the artifacts from. And, of course, we have
the our A-6 decorated in 5-0. That’s Rog Lester [Roger Lester] and Harry Mossman. The
night they went out, actually, I was on the next strike. In fact, I came into the ready room
to brief, and the skipper was supposed to lead the strike—lead that night, that mission.
And they said, “Paul, take over because Skipper’s busy.” And it turns out—I said,
“What’s going on?” He says, “Well, Rog and Harry didn’t come back.” And so he was
involved in finding out what was going on and seeing—so I took the next strikes out up
in that same general area.
Anyway, the point was they were down below. They had hit a mountain, and so they—
and the word was that the last word they transmitted was, “Let’s get the hell out of here.”
And so they may have been down too low when—and so—but my guideline was you
didn’t have to get down there. One of the six we used, however, was interesting. The
MiGs would be up there, and they would—when we were operating low, they would
come out and try to get us, but, of course, they wouldn’t—couldn’t get us out of the dirt.
So we said, “Okay, well, here.” The fighter guy says, “Hey, we’ll have—we’ll go out
there with A-6 call signs and go out there into the area, and we’ll use the A-6 call signs
and the MiGs will think we’re A-6s. They’ll come out, and we’ll go up there and shoot
down the MiGs.” And I said, “Okay. Great plan.”
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So they get—our call sign was Viceroy. So they take off from the ship, and they get
airborne and head for—heading for Haiphong, that area. And then they call for gas.
[laughs] And the last thing an A-6 needed—we didn’t need gas. So the fact that you have
this guy, Viceroy 506, and he’s calling for a tanker—well, look, the North Vietnamese
aren’t stupid. [laughter] This is not an A-6. He’s calling for gas. He’s not an A-6. So they
don’t bite. So anyway, that—but the point was—yeah. When we were operating, the
MiGs really weren’t a concern to us. They wanted—of course, that’s the thing about it.
The fighters wanted them, to get them out as much as possible. But they didn’t bite that
much, so…
01:30:58
[Mining missions]
SE:
Okay. I understand you were involved in some mining missions in Haiphong?
PB:
Yes. In addition to the mine, we actually mined the rivers between Haiphong and Hanoi.
There were some rivers that they used—WBLCs was the term, Waterborne Logistics
Craft. And they would haul a lot of stuff around on these barges, basically. They’re little
motorized barges. And then, bless his soul, President Nixon—because we’d be down
there on Yankee Station. There’d be these ships heading for Haiphong Harbor loaded
with ammunition and weapons and everything-like, going to Haiphong, offloading it,
getting it on trucks, bringing it down, and we were going to see it on the Ho Chi Minh
Trail—or they were going to see it. And we couldn’t stop it.
Anyway, May 16th, May 15th, something—some day like that—President Nixon says,
“Okay, we’re going to shut it off.” So we mined the harbor and the—you have to
understand. There’s a channel going into a bay that’s sort of in there, and so the Marines
on board Coral Sea actually put the real mines in there. They’re really sensitive, real
honest-to-goodness mines. And then we went out later on the same day and put in the
DSTs. I talked about that fuse that we had with the sensor, seismic—not seismic—flux
magnetic sensor. And we put a bunch of those in, and the way you did that was you went
in, you flew—Do Son Peninsula was out there, and there was a lighthouse on it. And
basically you flew over the Do Son Peninsula lighthouse, and then you took up your
heading and went out a certain number, and then you figured it out and then you—we
could send an intervalometer that the mines would come off at a certain distance. And
you wanted to separate them so they wouldn’t—if one cooked off, it didn’t cook off a
bunch of others. But you had to be very precise at where you put them and where you
reported them because they had to log where all the mines had been so that we could go
in and sweep them. And also, the other aspect of it was they went inoperative after—I
want to say 60 days. So you have to keep going up there and reseeding it.
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The interesting thing about that was a friend of mine, Tom [Hoyvick?], was in HM-16,
which was a helicopter mine support squadron, and he was involved—and after the war
was over and they went in and they were going to sweep all the mines—or clear all the
mines out of there, he went in with a team that went in to talk to the Vietnamese about
cleaning the mines. And I’m making the numbers up here, but it was—he went in there
and said—the Vietnamese said basically, “Well, we figure you dropped 3,528 mines.”
And they were within like 100 of the number we had actually dropped. They had been
able to track them. But, of course, we were tracking them very precisely when we were
putting them in and setting them off, or—because we had to log exactly where they went.
Similarly, when we put them in the rivers, we had to tell them where we put them
because we had the protocols about them. Be able to deactivate them.
SE:
I recall something about concerns about damaging third-world—or third-party
commercial vessels.
PB:
Oh, yeah. That was, again, when there were ships were in port in Haiphong, they’d be
along the key and the wharf. And we could hit the wharf. We couldn’t hit the ships. We
had to make sure—if there were ships at the wharf, we basically never—didn’t
[unintelligible 01:34:24]. Some of those ships were actually like Hong Kong registries. I
mean, they were British ships and things like that. They were hauling stuff in there. And
so, no, that was—and we didn’t attack those ships. WBLCs and the kinds of things that
you were—that were obviously North Vietnamese and they were moving supplies up and
down the coast, those were legitimate targets, but we didn’t—anything that was
international or some sort of national, we didn’t touch.
SE:
Did the mines affect the—were there ships in port that were unable to leave Haiphong
because of mines?
PB:
Oh, yeah. They got trapped. And, in fact, I have pictures of that, also, of all the ships that
got trapped in there. Once we mined, they—the ones that were there offloading, then they
were out anchored in the channel. In fact, you’d come off, you’d go strike [Han Gai?],
and you’d look over and you’d see all the ships that were—the international ships
because they were out there until we cleared the minefields. So, yeah. It shut the port
down, and then all you had—then you had the northeast rail line. The northeast and
southeast rail—or northeast and northwest rail lines heading into Hanoi, that became our
main—the main way they were getting supplies in. And so we were—we worked that
again. You’d come up—in fact, it was again—you had the Chinese border. About 15
miles south of the Chinese border, there’s a valley that went parallel to the border. And so
you’d get down in that valley and run up there, go up to the northeast rail line, then come
down the northeast rail line. You’d usually get up there, and they’d be running—the
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trucks would be running with their lights on and things like that. So you’d work the rail
line—not the—the truck road, and then you’d bomb and then you’d come back out.
The A-7E was introduced at that time. The A-7E had a new computer system, had a
solid-state computer and it had a radar and all this business. It was a single airplane,
single-seat airplane. And they said, “We can do everything A-6 can.” So they said,
“Okay, we’ll give you a chance.” So I guess I can tell you this. This is 50 years old. It
must be—anyway, so the A-7E goes out one night to do a night A-6-style mission, all
single-plane strike or—actually, it went out as a two-plane to do the strike. Not only did it
hit the wrong target, it hit the wrong country. They went in and hit China.
And so what happened was they then, to make sure that would never happen again—this
was when Nixon was in—they put a 25-mile buffer zone, take away the best route we had
going in, this—what we used to call the Intruder Valley, going up along the border to get
to the northeast rail line. They put a 25-mile buffer zone so we couldn’t use that valley
anymore. So they took away our best way. So we had to sort of bounce our way over the
hills to get over to the northeast rail line. But it was all because they could do everything
we could. You talk about [unintelligible 01:37:11] and this sort of competition between
squadrons. Well, as I say, the A-7s were sitting there saying, “Oh, we can do everything
the A-6 can.” We’re saying bullshit, you know. [laughs] So…
01:37:20
[Bombing targets and tanker operations]
SE:
What else happened on that second cruise that you want to share with us?
PB:
As I say—well, let’s see. Let’s look at this. [consults notes] [unintelligible 01:37:37].
Interesting enough, during that tour, you had—what was going on—you hear about
Linebacker. All through that tour, you were very much tied—our operation were tied to
what was going on in Paris. The Paris Negotiations were taking place, and you had—so
when the North Vietnamese—you’d have restrictions. We’re not going to bomb north—
you can’t bomb within 10 miles of Hanoi or you can’t bomb within 15 miles of
Haiphong. You’d put these restrictions on. When the North Vietnamese would get sort of
antsy or hard-nosed in Vietnam—or in Paris, they would release some of these things, so
we’d—first of all, there was something called a Jane Fonda target list, and these were
targets that you did not want to bomb, that they were off the target list because they—
diplomatically and politically, they were off the target list. Now, for instance, all the
POW camps, we knew where all them were. We, of course, stayed away. I remember our
wing commander saying, “We don’t want to give those guys anymore heartburn than they
already have. We’ll stay away from them.” So we had—whenever we’d brief, he’d say,
“Here’s the POW sites.”
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And similarly, like we went to Nam Dinh to hit the trans-shipment point, well, there was
a big—what did it look like? It looked like a big warehouse, but it was actually a textile
mill. And it was a matter of, “Don’t bomb the textile mill. This is not a military target.”
Our targets were very strictly—had some tie to either military or trans-shipment of
military supplies that we were trying to shut down. And so there was a sensitivity. And in
addition—and then we would bomb—be allowed to bomb or not bomb based upon what
was going on in Paris.
And so that was another aspect of this. I hit all the kinds of missions. I’d say the singleplane stuff at night was our our big forte and then the Alpha strikes when we’d go out
with this. I was fortunate. I flew with John, John Little, for most of the strikes. And then
the guy who was flying with the air wing commander who would—one of the guys, when
he was on Coral Sea and I’d gotten the introduction to Al [Seibeck?], took me—I met
him at the club, and I went to the airport and talked—went aboard the Coral Sea to talk
about the A-6 when I was doing the air control work with Sterett. Al was Jim McKenzie,
who lives actually—still lives on Whidbey Island on West Beach Road. What do you call
it? He was the air wing commander—our air wing commander, had been a commanding
officer of Attack Squadron 52. So he was so—so when Al left, I became air wing
commander’s BN, and so when we would fly together, so we’d lead Alpha strikes and
things like that, which were sort of slick.
What else? I’m trying to think if I’ve missed any kind of missions. The Standard ARM,
single airplane, Alpha strikes, buddy bombing.
SE:
Tanker operations?
PB:
Oh, yeah. That’s the other thing. We had—because I did—I told you I had 265 bombing
combat missions and three—90 tankers. And the tankers, we would just basically take off
from the ship and go up—and they had the two CAP stations, one in North SAR, one in
South SAR. And you’d go up and hit—you’d go down, hit—give gas to one group—or
one section, and then you give gas to the second section, and then you go back and be the
recovery tanker. You stay overheard. If anybody had any problems, they could come up
and you’d give them gas, and they’d go back down and try to get—
SE:
How was the airplane configured for tanker operations?
PB:
You had—well, you had the tankers, which were designated airplanes. I mean, they
had—the system had been taken out. They were KA-6Ds. So they had no bombing
system, and you had just the tanker package installed in the aircraft, and then you’d had
five bubbles. So you’d have 10,000 pounds of gas in tanks on board and then you’d have
your 16,000 pounds of internal fuel, so you’d be carrying 26,000 pounds of fuel as
you’d—you could give away 18,000 pounds of that, the time you’re flying and all that.
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You could also take what they call a “buddy store,” and that’s a Douglas—buddy store,
which was a tank, a fuel tank, and in the back of it they put a hose reel assembly so that it
would roll out the hose so that you could—the way the A-6 is—or the way Navy
[unintelligible 01:42:22], they have a basket and you have a probe on the airplane. You
plug the probe into the basket and then transfer the fuel. Well, you had this hose-and-reel
assembly that rolled out, and then—so you’d put one of these buddy stores, Douglas
buddy stores, on the aircraft and then put—give it four more tanks and make every
airplane we had, every A-6 we had, a tanker. And so that would happen.
And then the way this really torqued us off was—understand, how you get Air Medals,
Air Medals are sort of a bean count. And so if you fly a strike mission over the beach
with [unintelligible 01:42:58], you’d get like two missions points, and if you had 20
mission points, you get an Air Medal. If you fly a tanker mission or a CAP mission, you
get like a quarter mission point. So you have to fly like 40 missions to get an Air Medal.
And so the fighter guys are out there flying these CAP missions. They’re not taking
ordnance over the beach, so they’re in this reduced—I don’t think they got a quarter
point, but they didn’t get much. So they want to fly bombing missions.
So in order to fly a bombing mission, you put what they call a TER, triple ejection rack,
on these [unintelligible 01:43:30] F-4. Get an F-4, put two of these TERs on, they carry
six bombs. So in order to give the fighter guys some mission points and give them Air
Medals, you would have to de-rig an A-6 tanker—because these guys needed gas in order
to fly their mission. So you’d de-rig a bomber that could carry as many as 28 bombs and
so that you could fly four airplanes—to be a tanker, so that you could fly four airplanes
carrying six bombs apiece. So the four airplanes carrying six bombs apiece is 24 bombs.
The normal load you’d carry with that A-6 would be 22. [laughs] So that really made us
happy. Let’s de-rig one of our bombers to make a tanker so the Air Force could go out
and get mission points. But there was no competition for these medals. We didn’t get
these—we weren’t sensitive about that at all. [laughs]
SE:
Did you ever encounter any battle damage to your aircraft?
PB:
No, no. In fact, I didn’t mention that. One night, we went into—against Cat Bi. It was
really slick. I was working the system, and we got to the mission—the release point, and
up to that point, the BN’s totally in the scope and not looking out at all. And so I get out
of the scope, the bomb’s released, and I look up and there’s this—you know, this white.
[laughs] I said, “Whoa! This is pretty exciting!” So Joe wraps the airplane up on a 90degree bank, and we started heading for—turning for the water. And it was the slickest
thing because I looked down—because I’m on the left side. I have nothing to do, so I’m
riding [unintelligible 01:45:01] passenger at that point. I look down—and you have to
understand. A 57-millimeter or 37-millimeter gun, every fifth round is a tracer, so you
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have like a flashing—it’s like a strobe light. I looked down, and there’s this—we’re right
over a gun crew, and they’re loading it. But because of the strobe light effect, the guy is
going—[mimes carrying something] I was sitting there—[laughs]—and it was really slick
because you’re sitting down there watching this. So it was just one of those things. And
then we’d level off and, of course, hightailed it. But they missed us.
SE:
Did you ever have to refuel with the A-6?
PB:
No. What do you mean?
SE:
Aerial refueling.
PB:
No. Saved a couple guys. In fact, one of these interesting Naval Academy things, I was
flying with Mike Smith [Michael J. Smith]. Mike Smith, you will know, if you go over to
the Challenger—Mike Smith was the pilot on the Challenger. Mike Smith was in our
squadron, VA-52, [unintelligible 01:46:01]. So he and I are flying the recovery tanker,
and there’s an A-7 kid who couldn’t get aboard. And he made about seven passes, but he
couldn’t get aboard. So they—and he’s—one of the senior guys is Phil Gubbins, who is a
lieutenant commander in the squadron, in the A-7 squadron. So anyway, they send—they
take this nugget with Phil to the beach, and they tell us to go give—try to give him some
gas on the way up. So we are—we’re all flying, heading for Da Nang because we’re
going to spend the night in Da Nang. We’re the last recovery and this kid couldn’t get
aboard, so we’re going to give him some gas, get him to Da Nang, land at Da Nang, and
then come back the next day.
Well, it was—turned out that Phil Gubbins had been my plebe summer squad leader
when I first got to the Naval Academy. I had been Mike Smith’s plebe summer squad
leader when he [laughs]. So we had Class of ‘63, ‘65, and ‘67 all heading for Da Nang
with this nugget. And we then landed. But we didn’t need gas, but a lot of other people
did. So that was the trick on the A-6, was to—people would have trouble getting aboard
the ship, come back and get a couple thousand pounds, and get—go back down and try
again until they made it or else got sent to Da Nang.
So that was another thing. We’d go to Da Nang occasionally. If for some reason our
bombs wouldn’t release, we couldn’t come back aboard with our whole bombload, so
we’d go to—there was a Navy side of the field and an Air Force side of the field in Da
Nang. We’d go to the Navy side of the field and download the bombs and then fly back
to the ship, and then they’d try and figure out what went wrong, so… What else?
SE:
Let’s take a pause for a moment.
[production talk]
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01:47:59
[Naval Postgraduate School and service with Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115)]
SE:
So when did you return to the States after the second cruise?
PB:
November—well, November of ’72. November, December. The ship got back in
December. Actually, I got home—I transferred—those—what do you call them—
Standard ARM airplanes we had were very special, and so when we finished the cruise,
we—what do you call them—transpacked those airplanes. We flew those airplanes across
the Pacific. So I actually was part of that crew where we flew from Cubi Point in the
Philippines to Guam, from Guam to Wake Island, from Wake Island to Barbers Point in
Hawaii, and then from Barbers Point back to Whidbey. So when we got—sometimes we
got gas. Sometimes we didn’t. But we—because they wanted to get those airplanes back
to the next squadron going out so they could train in them because there were only six
airplanes of that kind. And so these were—or, in fact, there were only three airplanes of
that kind that they were—so they were very—you had—there was only—there was no
reproduction—there was no training equipment that you had with them. So those
airplanes came back.
So the point was I got back early. I got back for Thanksgiving, and I remember my
father-in-law saying we really have something to be thankful for this year. [laughs]
Because the ship came in about a week later, so…
SE:
So where do you go from there? You’re back at Whidbey. What happens?
PB:
Back from Whidbey, I get—we’re back to Whidbey. That’s December. January—oh,
how does this work? I guess I got an order while we were on cruise that I would be going
to the Postgraduate School. And I would be leaving in January going to the Postgraduate
School, and I leave in January. And subsequently, it turns out I also made lieutenant
commander, which was sort of—being in that screwed up flight path I had getting to
being—getting into a squadron finally, they deep-selected me for lieutenant commander,
which was sort of nice.
And so I—in January—so I got back in December and then in January transferred down
to the Postgraduate School in Monterey and then started the program there in—I guess
that was February—in March. And, in fact, I guess—that’s right. There was a six-week
workup period, and then I started the actual course in operations research. Then I spent
two years at the Postgraduate School getting a degree in operations research, and my—
actually, the interesting thing, I got back into the business effectively, because my thesis
that we had to do for our master’s program was—this was 1970—‘73, ‘75 timeframe. All
of a sudden, there was a Russian Navy out there with ships. And so I became—basically,
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my dissertation—VX-5 was tasked with, say, “how do we attack ships,” because we
hadn’t thought about it for 30 years. We had been bombing targets and worrying about
basically supporting land operations. And so my thesis was on how do you use aircraft to
attack ships. And so that’s what—I did this big game theory analysis of types of
aircraft—types of ships out there and types of aircraft and what would be the bombloads
you would use against various ships. And so that’s what my—so that’s what I wound up
as my topic.
And then finished there and then got orders to VA-115, which was America’s Foreign
Legion, is the thing. It was basically out to USS Midway. VA-115 came out as—in ‘72,
and then they came back for a short while and then they deployed to change their
homeport, the USS Midway did, from San Diego to Yokosuka, Japan. And then there was
an air wing that went with it. Air Wing Five went with it, and VA-115 was in that air
wing. And I went out and joined VA-115. And I delayed a little bit getting out there
because I had family and—but some—they were deploying in—think of the month
here—September to go to the Indian Ocean for three months. And so I was finishing up
about that time. So some guys went out and joined it before the Indian Ocean
[unintelligible 01:52:18]. I hung around Whidbey and finished at Whidbey and then went
out there in December and joined them in December when the ship got back to
Yokosuka.
SE:
And that was December of ‘75?
PB:
‘75, I guess. Because I was at Postgraduate School from March of ‘73 to—I graduated in
March of ‘75 and then went to Whidbey to the A-6 RAG. Did the RAG trick, the
Replacement Air Group, the training squadron at Whidbey that trains you in A-6s, and
went through my second tour of that to get up to speed and then went out to 115.
SE:
And so what’s it like being in the peacetime Navy?
PB:
Actually, it was interesting. It was very much—115—these were the Carter years, where
there were a lot of—there wasn’t much flying. 115 was the one squadron—the USS
Midway was the one ship that operated. I mean, we were out there and constantly doing
operations with all the countries out there, doing operations in Team Spirit in Korea or
[unintelligible 01:53:19] Korea. We’d be going down to do operations in the Philippines.
We’d do operations—we’d go out and do, say, one to the Indian Ocean and did
operations in the Indian Ocean with—we did that, as I say, with the strike, we’d go out to
do the Navy-versus-Air Force Iranian thing in the Indian Ocean. Visited Karachi,
Pakistan, went to Diego Garcia, various places like that, so…
SE:
How visible are the Russians at this time?
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PB:
[pauses] I’ve got to think about this. Did we worry about the Russians? Not at this time.
A subsequent tour—when I went was in 50—in 165, I’d actually take one of my TRAM
airplanes and go down and do—because at that time, we had gotten the infrared sensor
and we were making movies of what various kinds of ships looked like on it, so I went
down from—when I was—again, this is 165, so this is in the summer of ‘82. And I’d fly
from the Northern Arabian Sea about 700 miles south to Socotra anchorage, and then I’d
take infrared shots of all the Russian ships that were based at that. That was the 8th
Escadre. The 8th Squadron was based at Socotra. And took basically pictures of them.
And then—
SE:
Socotra’s part of…?
PB:
Yemen.
SE:
Okay.
PB:
Yeah. It was not a friendly country. They were—Yemen? What’s on the bottom of that?
Somalia. I’ve got to think. It’s that—
SE:
I think it is Yemen.
PB:
Yeah. Socotra’s south, but it’s—yeah. It’s not the country you would think of. It’s closer
to land, but it’s not associated with that country. Anyway, the point was that the Russians
were using it as an anchorage and we were taking shots of it. So they—and I’m trying to
think what we—most of our concern in those days was with the North Koreans. And we
deployed, and we would go in and say, “Do we do the Team Spirits?” And then in ’76—
yes, in ’76—they had the tree-chopping incident along the DMZ, and we deployed.
Again, it was one of these things where I don’t know where I was, but got a call and said,
“Hey. Get down to the ship. We’re going to sea.” We had an emergency deployment.
That thing had happened, and they were sending us out. So we basically sent people up to
Atsugi to get the airplanes and send other—and I forget what I did that day, whether I
went to the ship or I went to Atsugi to get an airplane, but we deployed and then
deployed off of Atsugi to—or off of Korea because we weren’t sure what was going on.
So we did—then a lot of people came out. We were doing targeting. In fact, we had the
Analytic Photogrammetric—APPS, Analytic Photogrammetric Precision System. It was
basically a thing we could look at—you could look at photography, and we were assisting
in trying to figure out if the North Vietnamese—or North Koreans attacked, how we
would use A-6s to stop them, and one of the things was we could put these seed packages
in and mine the roads, and we needed something to be able to site. So I used this system.
I was—what was my job at that time? I wasn’t operations. Whatever I was doing, I sat—
used this system because they’d basically identify places in—where we could put these
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mission—these strike packages—or these seed packages, mining packages, and in order
to do that, we needed aim points and we couldn’t see [unintelligible 01:57:20].
So they went ahead and talked the Koreans into building—they took 55-gallon drums and
cut them in half and turned them around so they’d be radar-reflective. So we could use
these as aim points and then put the—very accurately, put the seed packages in to stop
the flow of supplies that we anticipated. Because the North Koreans had tunnels
underneath the DMZ where you could drive a jeep through or you could bring people
four abreast and run—so you could run a battalion through there in 20 minutes or
something like that. And then they’d pop out and had them all—as a matter of fact, I had
a classmate of mine that was killed in those tunnels. They found one of the tunnels, and
he went down into it, and it was booby-trapped and got killed. But that was the kind of
thing—so, as I say, not too much of the Koreans—the Russians, as I say, we weren’t
concerned about. The Koreans we worried about, and then helping the Korean operations.
01:58:13
[A-6 developments]
SE:
By this time, how had the A-6 been improved or modified?
PB:
Okay, [unintelligible 01:58:20]. When I first went out there, we had the A-6s and we had
the Standard ARM birds. The PATARM birds had gone to 115, and so we were the ones
that were firing the Standards ARMs. And we had the PATARM birds there. And that—
so we were the last squadron that had the A-6As. Summer of ‘77, we go ashore—I’ve got
to think about this. Yeah. Summer of ‘77, we go ashore. The ship goes into the yard for
major work. It goes into the dry dock, and they start doing some major work, like threemonth, four-month yard period. We go to Atsugi and transition from the A-6A, the last
squadron, to the A-6E. And so we get the A-6Es and go through a whole training thing
where we had—and so we also then wind up using Gwangju in Korea as our training
station. So we move over there—because the rules about using bombing ranges and
things like that are a lot looser in Korea, so we were able to use the Korean training
ranges. But we transitioned to the A-6E.
And then in—I’ve got to think about this. In September, we deployed to the Indian Ocean
and go to the Indian Ocean, and that’s when we go to Karachi. And then we worked the
Diego Garcia. We could get into Perth in Australia, and we spent three months in the
Indian Ocean working, as I say, with the Air Force in this—with the Iranians, when the
Iranians were still friendly, and do all sorts of Indian Ocean ops and then come back just
before Christmas, so…
SE:
And so how did the aircraft change between the A and the E?
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PB:
Well, the E, of course, is a solid-state computer, a lot more aim point capability. The
radar is somewhat the same. The radar has not improved a great deal, but it’s—you’re
able to use the information a bit better. Was there a change in the radar? No, no. The
radar stayed pretty much the same.
But, again, it was—you were able to use the information and use the—control it a lot
better. And it was a lot—it stayed up a lot more, too. I was Avionics Armament Division
officer in ‘52, and one of the—and on the second cruise—and there was special teams
that Air Forces Pacific has held to do as much as possible—we were the only airplanes
working over the beach at night, and we were having maintenance problems. They had
special—convened special conferences to figure out how to keep the A-6s up, how to
provide part support and everything else to keep the A-6s up. When you went from the A
to the E, a lot of—with the solid-state electronics and everything like that, a lot of those
problems went away. So, I mean, you went from a rotating drum computer to a solid-state
computer. [laughs] There was immediate benefits to be gained.
SE:
And what about the infrared sensor?
PB:
That didn’t come on until the TRAM.
SE:
Okay.
PB:
Yeah. The A-6E was only an improvement in the radar system. The TRAM was Target
Recognition and Acquisition [Attack] Multi-sensor. And there had been something—
during the war—there were some A—what they call A-6Cs, and that was a system where
they put a sniffer on it, so something that would look for gasoline emissions, smoke or—
you know. And also a low-light level TV and a radar designator—yeah. I’ve got to think
about this. We didn’t have the—we never had those airplanes. Only the 165 had those
airplanes. We never deployed with them.
And then what the—it was when I got to 165 that we had—I took the first TRAMs to sea,
and that was the ones with the laser designator and the infrared sensor. I’ve got to think
about this. [laughs] No, we did not have—no, the improvement on the A-6E was just a
computer, and we didn’t get the other systems until the TRAMs came along. Because—
yeah, because that also gave us Harpoon capability, and I fired the first Harpoon. So, yes,
yes. So there—I’ll check on that, but I’m pretty sure that—
02:02:39
[Mount St. Helens eruption (May 18, 1980)]
SE:
Couple things.
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PB:
Yeah.
SE:
You mentioned previously that the infrared sensor on the A-7—or the A-6 was used to
monitor Mount St. Helens.
PB:
Okay. Now, let’s step forward in time. Okay, so we’re at 115. We do all the things we did
do—we did Korea. We had the improvements in the system. We had translation. We do
the operations in the Indian Ocean with the—against the Iranians—or with the Iranians.
We go to Perth and then just do—we’re constantly operating. I mean, that’s the squadron.
That’s the one that really gets—so I bagged a lot of flight time and a lot of traps on—in
115. Okay.
Subsequently, I go—so I come back from 115, go to the War College for—in fact, I
extended 115. I liked it out there, so I extended in the squadron, and then midway
through my extension, I get orders to the War College. So I go back in August of ‘78. I
was supposed to—I extended to—I was going to be out until December. I go back in
August of ‘78 to the War College, spend a year at the War College as a student. And I
had anticipated it, because I had my operations analysis degree, that I would stay on in
faculty. In fact, I was offered a job to stay on in faculty. While I’m there, I get screened
for command and selected for command, so I go back out to Whidbey.
At Whidbey—that’s right. There was another airplane in there I didn’t fly, the TRIM.
Boy, I’ve got to think about this. That’s a very good question. I can’t think of whether we
had the radar—the infrared on the As we had in—or the A-6Es we had in Japan. I got to
look at my stuff. Anyway, okay. Anyway, so the point was we get out to Japan—or get
out to Whidbey, and they’re training for this new airplane. And the system has been
upgraded, and you had an infrared sensor and a laser designator added to it, the Wart. It
was on the nose. That is, at that time, the finest infrared sensor in the world, the highest
quality, and so we are running training missions with that aircraft.
SE:
And what’s the timeframe?
PB:
This is in December—well, May of ‘80 is when Mount St. Helens blew. So back up
before then, so from, say, December of ‘79 through—I get back to Whidbey in—
[pauses]. I finished up at War College. I get back to Whidbey, basically, summer of ‘79,
and then I go to the RAG and become XO of the RAG. And then so this is—we’re in fall
of ‘79, spring of ‘80. And I’m executive officer of the training squadron, and we—what
do you call it—have this aircraft.
And at that time, we would be flying missions. We’d fly down to Boardman Bombing
Range and come back. Because Mount St. Helens was making grumbling noises at that
point, so you’d fly back and you’d look at it on the—I didn’t do—we didn’t have it. We
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just looked at the airplane. We didn’t have the scope on the airplanes. But, however, the
TC-4C trainer had the infrared sensor on it. And the Coast and Geodetic Survey people
were using that aircraft to go look at Mount St. Helens, and they were identifying
hotspots on the mountain and using those. And so they were going up—and as I say, I
talked to Peyton Whitely about flying the A-6, flying this to take a look at Mount St.
Helens because it was a developing news story in that day. And before that could actually
happen, we had the—the mountain blew.
And I was executive—in fact, the day it blew—it was interesting. I was in church up in
Oak Harbor, St. Augustine’s in Oak Harbor. And we’re in church. It’s like 8:30 in the
morning or something like that. Anyway, we’re there and you hear this humongous
boom, and the building shakes. And so the priest sent the deacon out, and then he gets up
for the sermon. He says, “Well, we’re not quite sure what happened, but look at it this
way. You couldn’t be in a better place, right?” And it turns out—my immediate thought
was they—we had some SEALS there doing penetration exercises against the base. They
were testing base security. And I’m sitting there saying, “Here are these guys are setting
off M-80 grenades 8:00 on Sunday morning in Oak Harbor. Everybody’s in church and
they’re setting off—they’re doing—”
And in turns out, subsequently I then went home because I was taking a [unintelligible
02:07:45] down to Hill Air Force base to do bombing practice. So I go out to the
squadron, get in the airplane, we take off, and we’re heading—we had taken our bubbles
off the airplane that hangs off the airplane, so we’re a little short on fuel. And so we’re
heading—all of a sudden, they started heading us west, and we said, “Hey, no, no. We
don’t want to go west. We want to go east. We’ve got to get to Hill.” And he says, “Yeah,
we’re a little busy today.” Well, then it turns out they head us south, and all of a sudden
you see this big column of smoke heading for 40,000 feet—50,000 feet. It’s just this big
column coming out of St. Helens. And we had already gotten above the overcast, so I
couldn’t see the mountain, but guys who had stayed down were watching the stuff
coming out of the mountain. It was really spectacular. And, of course, all that stuff was
heading east. And then you got on the frequencies when we got over on that side—we
had gone south and east to head for Hill to Salt Lake City—and you would hear things
like, “Oh, yeah. United so-and-so, we’re setting into Spokane, but one of your company
went in there a couple hours ago and they pitted their windshield was so bad they
couldn’t land. So we’d rather not send you there.” [laughs] Because they were diverting
all of the people out of the area of the ash cloud. So that was pretty exciting.
02:09:01
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[Training pipeline and missile development]
SE:
So what were the teething problems with the new aircraft? Did things work right off the
bat or did you have some—
PB:
No, they pretty much—the stuff was pretty—worked pretty well. As I say, when I got to
the squadron, the airplanes—of course, that was the thing about it. We were getting
brand-new airplanes. I took brand-new airplanes on cruise. That was just golden. I mean,
they were really well-prepared. And, of course, the new stuff doesn’t break as much as
old stuff does.
And as far as, again, training on the equipment, we had prepared for it and so we—and,
of course, that’s the key about the squadron, is—again, as Al [Owens?], Senior Chief Al
[Owens?], was—when I took over AVARM Division officer—it’s one of these things—
wrapped me around the shoulder and tell you, “Here’s how we run avionics.” And it was
a matter of making sure we had the proper people, as people would get trained, because
we had—everybody was a specialist—or lots of people were specialists. And you have
radio people, and you’d have fire control people, and you’d have radar people. And as
those people would transfer, you had to make sure you had someone ready to slip into
their slot. So it was all a matter of making sure your training program accommodated the
kinds of transfers you were having.
So if you had the proper people, such that—what you had at the operational level,
basically guys pulled boxes—black boxes out of airplanes. They take a black box. I also
owned the people at the intermediate level. The black box would go either to one of the
buildings at Whidbey or on board the ship to the intermediate facility. And my people
were there on the benches and so they’d put the box on the bench and then fix the box
because the box would be broken. So the point was you made sure you had your training
pipeline such that these guys were going in there and you would have people ready that,
when some guy transferred, you had someone ready to slip into his slot. Because it would
be, in some cases, six, nine months of training to get him ready to be—so when a guy got
orders in, you sent him via some school so that when he showed up at the squadron he
was going to move into position to keep you up.
So it was all a matter of understanding—again, Al [Sebick?], the same guy I talked about,
I worked for him as maintenance officer, and he had been a—he had been an enlisted. In
fact, he was a crewman and plane captain on a B-29. He had spent his initial Air Force—
he was in the Air Force initially, Army Air Force—Army Air Corps, and then came into
the Navy as a chief, became an LDO, a limited duty officer—actually, became a warrant
and then a limited duty officer and retired as a commander. But he had been in
maintenance. He’d been—and then he was flying bombardier in the A-3, so he has plenty
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of time—but basically he knew maintenance. And so I guess you had talked about people
who influenced you. Al [Sebick?] was one of those. But Al [Sebick?] and Al [Owens?],
who said, “Here’s how we run maintenance.”
SE:
What about the Harpoon?
PB:
Harpoon was a slick missile. Again, go back to the War College, and I’m at the War
College—I told you I did the how-you-attack-ships at the Postgraduate School. When I
get to the War College, of course, things are coming down the road. Tomahawk is
coming down the road, and Harpoon is coming down the road. And you have an entirely
new [unintelligible 02:12:33] because basically with Tomahawk, every ship becomes a
little aircraft carrier. And maybe it’s a one-shot air wing, but it’s a—if you have 25
Tomahawks aboard, you’ve got a 25-strike missile with certain capabilities. Similarly, the
Harpoon, you can then—as far as your anti-ship capability, you’re not having to go in
there and drop [unintelligible 02:12:55] or APAM or bombs or whatever on the ship. You
don’t have to fly over. You can be—stand 20 miles away and hose this thing off at them.
And so it was a major thing. So I did a study of—at the War College about how you
would you use—how this would change Navy tactics when you have the Harpoon and the
Tomahawk enter into your ordnance capabilities.
And so then I get to the squadron, and we have Harpoon capability, and so we then
integrate that into our air wing tactics. So at that time, we had gone through how you
bomb ships to sink ships. Now we have the HARM missile, which is an anti-radiation
missile, the STARM, and we have the Harpoon. So the question is, okay, if you’re
attacking a ship, what’s the best way to do it? And we figure, well, you go in with
HARMs and Harpoons, and if the guys come up on his radar, you shoot the HARMs and
you get the—you hose the radars—anti-radiation missiles, hose them. If he doesn’t turn
his radars on, the Harpoon gets him. So you had to the integrate—and then once you sort
of do the first strike, then you bring your bombers in, the dumb guys in with the dumb
bombs, or the A-7s and the—at that time, the A-7s, and then the F-18s and the dumb stuff
in after you’ve used your smart missiles, initially.
So the thing about it, they’re expensive, so you can’t—you don’t have a whole magazine
load of them. You’ve got a certain limit or number. So you use them to do your first
strikes and then you back it up with bombs. So it was a major ship because, of course, the
Tomahawk you could fire not only from ships, but you could also fire from submarines.
And that’s what the—when they deactivated a bunch of Boomers—nuclear missiles type,
Poseidon and Polaris and then Poseidon ships—to put conventional missiles, put the
Tomahawks on them so they could do conventional strikes with them. So, yeah.
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So the Tomahawk—again, when you fire the Harpoon, it’s a matter of just understanding
how the thing worked because you shot it and then it got to a certain point and turned on.
And when it turned on after a certain amount of flight time, it would look for a target and
then it would attack the first target it had. So you had to—basically, when you were
attacking a ship, know where it was and then be able to shoot the missile such that, when
you knew it’d fire, it turned on, it would be—it would have the proper—what you were
targeting in its view window and then would attack it.
When I shot the one at—we had a landing—LCI, a Landing Craft Infantry. It was a
derelict that they had had at Cubi Point. They dragged it out to Diego Garcia, and I shot
the Harpoon at it, and it—and then I followed it. It traveled at about the same speed as an
aircraft. So I took it—in fact, I was taking a moving of the thing and then got to it, and it
popped up and went right in. It was a non-warhead shot, so it didn’t explode, but it hit the
thing. It was [unintelligible 02:16:01], a solid missile. And, of course, they’ve now made
that SLAM, Land Attack Missile—Surface Land Attack Missile—something SLAM. It’s
basically the Harpoon that they can designate with a GPS and put it in against targets—
on targets, so…
SE:
All right.
PB:
But another way for Boeing to make money.
02:16:22
[Contribution of artifacts to the Museum’s Vietnam exhibit]
SE:
[laughs] Yeah. Okay, I think we’re getting close to wrapping up here.
PB:
Okay.
SE:
One of the questions remaining is what artifacts did you contribute to the Vietnam
portion of the Great Gallery?
PB:
Oh, they got my survival vest. We’ve got the guy—the Air Force flight suit, G-suit, and a
compression suit, and then they got an Air Force life vest—or survival vest, and then
mine is in the cabinet next to it. And then on the other side, we have—basically, it’s the
charts I used for Haiphong Harbor. And they got my kneeboard, and then a lot of the
charts in some of the—like the Lam Son 719 charts, the photo reconnaissance. I have a—
we went out and fought a—actually, a drone went out, and it was one of these hidden-inplain-sight type things. There was all these 55-gallon drums of fuel oil they had put in
this valley, and they had this all stored there. And it looked like nothing at all, but they
picked this out and realized that this was a storage area for fuel. So we went in there and
struck it with an Alpha strike, and then they had subsequently took it. I have all three of
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those pictures. I have the before, during, and after shots, and that’s on the board. And
so—and then a lot of cheap advice about what they were saying, what the word said and
all that business, so…
02:17:43
[Careers after leaving active duty]
SE:
How difficult was the transition to civilian life after your Navy career?
PB:
Not very hard. [laughs] Well, let’s see. When I—the thing about it—it’s interesting. I left
the—I never got—I’ve never been really out of the business because when I got out of
the Navy, I got a job with something called the Gulf War Air Power Survey, which
was—I got out in ‘91, and ‘91, of course, is the year of Desert Storm. And they were
putting together a group to look at the use of air power, something like the strategic
bombing surveys of World War II. A guy named Eliot Cohen, who I had taught with at
the War College.
I didn’t talk about that. After I leave my squadron, 165, when I was commanding officer,
go to the Seventh Fleet, spend two years with the Seventh Fleet on the staff there, and
then I go back to the War College and teach for the War College for four years.
Subsequently, then leave there and go up to the Postgraduate School and teach the
strategy course at the War College. I then go to the Postgraduate School because they
need someone to teach operations research, which I’m also qualified.
So I get to—and then I retire out of the Postgraduate School, go to—come up here, can’t
find a job up here because Boeing—this is ‘91—Boeing has lost five programs because
of the peace dividend. So I go to work for the Gulf Air Power Survey for a year and a
half, almost two years, and then subsequently, in between, I moved back down to
Monterey because there is a chance I can get a job down there as a civilian. So I go back
down there, and my wife—the school my wife worked for also wanted her back. So we
go back down to Monterey because there are no jobs up here, and so I teach at the
Monterey. So I’m still in the Navy business, you know. I never got away from aviation
with the Gulf War Survey. I’m still effectively in the Navy business at Monterey. And
then I always want to keep my job if a—there’s a job that comes up called military
concept development analyst on the Boeing webpage. I find out, go to another old A-6
guy who is working for Boeing, find out what the job’s all about, apply, get hired for
Boeing.
So I’m working for Boeing, and then my daughter called and said, “Listen, there’s a job
advertised in the paper. They’re looking for an instructor for the War College and—or
someone to teach.” So I call friends at the War College and say, “What’s this all about?”
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Well, it turns out they called Bill [Turcotte?], who is the head—the guy who had offered
me the job years previously. And he describes it, so I get the job teaching for the War
College. And so during the day, I’m cleverly disguised as a Boeing engineer or analyst,
and during the night, I’m teaching for the War College. And that started in ’98, and I was
still doing that. So the point about it is I’ve never really gotten away from it. I mean, I’m
still sucking the government for all it’s worth, I guess. [laughs]
02:20:49
[Closing thoughts]
SE:
Okay. Well, I think we better call it quits because we’re running out of time. So thank
you so much for your contributions and everything, and both to the Museum and to the
United States. And I hope you’ve enjoyed our conversation.
PB:
Yeah.
KELCI HOPP:
If someone was viewing this oral history in 10, 15 years in the future, what
would you like to leave for students, researchers, just kind of last thoughts on your career
in aviation?
PB:
Oh, it’s fun. [laughs] As I say, I got away from it, and I wanted to get back into it
because—and what makes it—actually, the military is—we just had this—we just buried
Greg Wood. Greg Wood provided all the artifacts—went out and found the artifacts. Rog
and Harry, when they shot down, he went out with the team looking for the artifacts. And
when they brought Harry’s remains back, we had this—but it’s just the people you deal
with in the military. And I think it continues and so it goes—and well beyond
Wednesday, mid-week or mid—yeah, mid-month, we still have a group of A-6 guys who
get together at the 13 Coins up at Bellevue. So it’s just the people you deal with in the
military. It’s been—and, of course, A-6 people—[laughing/unintelligible 02:22:10]. No,
so it is so much—so much about the military—people don’t realize this—is so much of
doing stuff with guys. We had—well, for Greg’s funeral, we had—there were about 32
officers in the squadron. Nine guys showed up for his funeral, for the guy who we just
buried.
SE:
Yeah.
PB:
It was the guy who was our air wing awards officer. I didn’t mention that, but we had all
these awards. We had 125 Distinguished Flying Crosses, all sorts of Air Medals and
special awards. Well, Greg Wood was the guy who wrote these things all—we had two
Silver Stars. But the point was that the—you had people like that that just are good
people to work with, and we just stayed in contact. We’ll have a reunion here in seven—
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well, ‘72 was our big year. ‘82, ‘92, and—at that squadron. So in 2022, we’ll get
together, you know, 50 years. And most guys will show up, so… It’s people.
SE:
Well, thank you.
PB:
Yeah.
02:23:13
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Bloch_Paul.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bloch, Paul S., 1942-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ellis, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Paul S. Bloch is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a bombardier/navigator aboard the Grumman A-6 Intruder aircraft. He was born in Berwyn, Illinois on September 13, 1942 to Walter and Helen Bloch. He attended Morton High School (Illinois) and afterwards entered the U.S. Naval Academy (Annapolis, Maryland).</p>
<p>Graduating from the Naval Academy in 1965, Bloch next underwent flight training at Naval Air Station Pensacola (Florida), NAS Meridian (Mississippi), and NAS Kingsville (Texas). He received training in the Grumman F9F Cougar and Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, but eventually decided to transfer out of aviation and return to the Surface Navy. He received orders to the USS Sterett (CG-31), where he served in the CIC (combat information center) during operations in the Gulf of Tonkin.</p>
<p>In 1969, Bloch decided to return to naval aviation. He underwent naval flight officer training at NAS Glynco (Georgia) and trained as a bombardier/navigator in the Grumman A-6 Intruder/Prowler at NAS Whidbey Island (Washington). Over the course of his A-6 career, Bloch flew with Attack Squadrons 52 (VA-52), 115 (VA-115), 128 (VA-128), and 165 (VA-165) and served in a number of squadron executive positions. He also served two combat tours in Southeast Asia aboard the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63), flying a total of 265 combat missions against Vietnam and Laos. Other assignments from Bloch’s Navy career include studying operations research at the Naval Postgraduate School (Monterey, California), attending the U.S. Naval War College (Newport, Rhode Island), and serving on the staff of the Seventh Fleet. He retired from active duty in 1991.</p>
<p>Following his retirement, Bloch continued to be involved in military activities. He contributed to the Gulf War Air Power Survey and taught at both the Naval Postgraduate School and Naval War College. In 1998, he was hired by the Boeing Company and worked for 18 years in their Phantom Works, Defense, and Commercial sectors.</p>
<p>Bloch is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps and is still an active volunteer as of 2019. He has also contributed a number of A-6 artifacts to the Museum’s Vietnam exhibits.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
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OH_Bloch_Paul
Title
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Paul Bloch oral history interview
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Paul S. Bloch and interviewer Steve Ellis, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, June 4, 2019.
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06-04
Coverage
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Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Bloch, Paul S., 1942-
Boeing Company
Bombing, Aerial
Douglas A4D (A-4) Skyhawk Family
Grumman A-6 (A2F) Intruder/Prowler Family
Grumman F9F Cougar (Swept-Wing) Family
Kitty Hawk (Aircraft carrier)
Sterett (DLG-31)
Surface-to-air missiles
United States. Navy
United States. Navy. Attack Squadron 115
United States. Navy. Attack Squadron 128
United States. Navy. Attack Squadron 165
United States. Navy. Attack Squadron 52
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Saint Helens, Mount (Wash.)--Eruption, 1980
Extent
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1 recording (2 hr., 23 min., 13 sec.) : digital
Rights
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In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Vietnam War veteran Paul S. Bloch is interviewed about his military service with the United States Navy. He discusses his experiences as a CIC (combat information center) officer and as a bombardier/navigator for the Grumman A-6 Intruder aircraft. Topics discussed include his combat cruises during the Vietnam War; his assignments with Attack Squadrons 52 (VA-52), 115 (VA-115), 128 (VA-128), and 165 (VA-165); and his experiences with various ordnance. He also touches briefly on his later career with the Boeing Company and the U.S. Naval War College.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Early aviation experiences -- Favorite aircraft -- Experiences at the Naval Academy -- Flight training -- Service overview -- Gulf of Tonkin assignment aboard the USS Sterett (DLG-31) -- Terrier and Talos missiles -- Helicopters and other aircraft on the USS Sterett -- Flying the Grumman F-9 Cougar -- Grumman A-6 Intruder program and assignment at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island -- Service with Attack Squadron 52 (VA-52) on the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63) -- Bombing and mission logistics in Southeast Asia -- Second cruise aboard the Kitty Hawk -- Mining missions -- Bombing targets and tanker operations -- Naval Postgraduate School and service with Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115) -- A-6 developments -- Mount St. Helens eruption (May 18, 1980) -- Training pipeline and missile development -- Contribution of artifacts to the Museum’s Vietnam exhibit -- Careers after leaving active duty -- Closing thoughts
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https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/8dece2b0145d340afe1a70e0bdf5b644.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/100cfdb8425a07426ef131b88b279cc6.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Paul L. Weaver (Part 2 of 2)
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: May 24, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as
an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part two, he continues to discuss his involvement in the Pacific
Northwest aviation scene during the 1950s and beyond. Topics discussed include his aircraft
restoration work; his experiences with homebuilt aircraft and the Experimental Aircraft
Association (EAA); his memories of other aviation enthusiasts and notable events and locations;
and his work with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF) and its
successor, The Museum of Flight.
Biography:
Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the
Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and
Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at
Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.
Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after
transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois).
Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman
and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and
Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the
end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).
After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as
an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company.
Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft,
including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.
Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects
of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in
seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He
also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight.
As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation .......... 5
Aircraft restoration work, part one.................................................................................................. 9
Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum ................................................................................................. 13
Aircraft restoration work, part two ............................................................................................... 15
The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1 ....................................................................................................... 18
Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories ............................................................. 19
Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days ......................... 21
Stories about local airports............................................................................................................ 35
Closing thoughts ........................................................................................................................... 42
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Paul L. Weaver (Part 2 of 2)
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation]
STEVE LITTLE:
Hello. I’m Steve Little, and we are at The Museum of Flight in Seattle,
Washington. It’s May 24th, 2019, and we’re here to continue an oral history with Mr.
Paul Weaver. Our first interview was conducted on March 11th, 2019. Paul is one of the
original members of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation, the
predecessor to The Museum of Flight, and remains a volunteer to this day some 50 years
later. In this interview, we’d like to explore Paul’s memories with the history of the
Museum. So what I’m thinking—first interview you talked about early days, restoring
airplanes for PNAHF, and I’d like to hear a little more about that. How you got involved,
where you found them.
PAUL WEAVER:
How did I get involved? Pity. When I saw these poor airplanes sitting
outside, the weather—rain on them and all that sort—and it hurt me to see a Navy
airplane sitting out with no canopy. [laughs] But I saw it in a neighbor’s yard. I was
seeing the aircraft, and that’s where it all started. I thought—now I said, “Well, what are
they going to do with those up here?” And then later on I found out they’re going to start
a museum. Oh, good, then I’ll jump in and see if I can help.
But basically, it was—that was it, seeing the airplanes outside not being maintained, out
in the weather all the time. And so I didn’t like to see that because those airplanes—to
me, it’s going to be maintained and hopefully fly again. But I often wonder where they all
ended up. I know where some of them came—ended up. But the other planes, too. I hear
we got a storage area up at Paine Field?
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
And I have never been there yet.
SL:
Really?
PW:
No, I haven’t. And—
SL:
That’s our restoration facility.
PW:
But I know where there—where they have a little museum. Is that it?
SL:
It’s near there.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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PW:
Near. Okay.
SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
Then I see where the museum up there—that’s a surprising story and not related to the
Museum, really. But one of the fellows working up there on the—in the museum was
telling me about—he had a cousin, I believe it was, that was on an aircraft carrier, too.
“Oh,” I says, “is that true?” “Oh yeah,” he says, “the Liscome Bay.” And I—“What? I’m
sorry to report, but I watched the Liscome Bay burn.”
SL:
Oh.
PW:
It got torpedoed the same night we were under attack. But anyway, this is off track, but
maybe it’s part of it, somebody’d like to hear it, but—
SL:
Certainly.
PW:
But the Liscome Bay was a part of our task force. And so the night was—the night before
this has happened, of the task force—there was a lot of action out there. There was more
burning than I knew for sure, but I did identify that it was Liscome Bay was the one right
behind us burning. And so when I told this fellow that, he was kind of surprised. Well, I
was surprised to hear that he knew about the ship, too. And—
SL:
That’s an unusual one.
PW:
But that was past, you know.
SL:
So he was working on our restoration area up there?
PW:
He was in the—part of the museum—
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
…up at Paine Field.
SL:
Very interesting. Yes.
PW:
But that’s where he was working. I think that’s why—he was working around it, and
when he raised that word up, it struck a bell with me. Oh no. And I told him, I—at the
time, I says, “Well, I’m sorry to report this. You lost your relative there. But I happened
to see the whole thing.” But it was right short thereafter then we got banged. And that’s
when they—that’s this other thing I’m talking about, the torpedo coming into the food
locker. We had bologna sandwiches for a while. [laughter] Oh, but basically, let’s go
back to Museum stuff. But—
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SL:
So when was this that you saw these aircraft? Was that the early 1960s, mid ‘60s maybe?
PW:
That was in—I think it was probably the late ‘50s. Probably in the late ‘50s.
SL:
You were starting to see some of those.
PW:
Yeah. And I wish I could remember the guy’s yard they were in. That bugs me that I
can’t remember that.
SL:
Well, you—yeah, you mentioned McMicken Heights before—
PW:
McMicken Heights.
SL:
…which is kind of down by SeaTac area?
PW:
Yeah, SeaTac, uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah, and it was a new—McMicken Heights was a
new development, actually. There were some older homes there, but you buy so low with
the developers and—in that area. And right off of Mill Trail Road, you know.
SL:
Do you remember what airplanes were there?
PW:
Well, the—I think it was the F-80 was one of them and—no, I can’t really identify them
right now. I just see—
SL:
Oh, I understand that. Yeah.
PW:
I see them out there sitting in the rain. But I don’t think they were open to the public to
go in there and mill around because they’re in somebody’s yard.
SL:
So did you just go knock on the door to find out how this was going to start? Or how did
that happen?
PW:
No, no, no. I just kept track of seeing what was going on. I worked—I was working here
at Boeing’s at that time. And then when I found later on that we’re going—they were
going to start a museum, and well, then I’m going to find out more about. And that’s
where—[whistles]—that’s how it all started.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
I mean, because if we’re going to save something, that’s me. I don’t want to throw
anything away that can be fixed. [laughter] And that same thing had—was all the way
through my aviation career, was don’t throw it away. Repair it. Let’s get it back and
then—get it back in commission.
SL:
Certainly.
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PW:
I—well, let’s get back to the Museum. [laughs]
SL:
Well, yeah.
PW:
But I could tell you all kinds of stories in between related to fixing and keeping it going,
like the old Dash 80, you know, that we had some—out on the road, you know, you
didn’t have everything available to fix with, so you had to use your own innovation and
my—and repair, fix it, or something like that. [laughs] Oh my, oh my.
SL:
Well, were you involved in the Museum before it was at the Seattle Center? Or with it
when it was at the Seattle Center?
PW:
Oh, it was before that.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, I was—
SL:
Can you talk a little about that?
PW:
Oh yeah, I was way before that. I recall during the Center—when the Center—they had
something there, but I didn’t get involved at that time because I wasn’t in the know on it.
I just knew it was going to be happening somewhere, but I couldn’t find anybody for
quite a while to get a handle on the situation.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And, of course, maybe you—you know Mike [Pavoney?]?
SL:
I don’t.
PW:
Oh, okay.
SL:
The name rings a vague bell, but—
PW:
Well, there was Mike. He was a long—one of the guys in the Plant One of Boeing. He
worked there many—and his name’s on some of the displays here, where he had—
showing his wages and whatever. But Mike—and then Mike had a brother George, too.
And I recruited them to work with the Museum a long, long time ago.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so George—I mean Mike was very conscious about the same thing I was thinking
about. And so when I got up at Boeing here—because I was working elsewhere doing
other things. But he did his share, I think. Yeah.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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00:09:25
[Aircraft restoration work, part one]
SL:
So what aircraft did you get involved in and when on the restorations of these?
PW:
Oh, on the restoration. Well, the biggest thing, whenever anybody needed something I
got involved. And particularly on Dash—the 80 down here, you know, like getting it
when it come off of the garbage dump up in Alaska.
SL:
Well—yeah, the Model 80?
PW:
Yeah, the Model 80 up there. I just said 80, but that’s another one. But yeah, we brought
it down here and we had to put it on the field there. I forget what—was old Hangar One
that used to—at Sand Point.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
We had—
SL:
So it was—some of the restoration was done at Sand Point?
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s where we started. We did a lot of work there starting—scraping
rust. And I worked trying to get it presentable to—for the engine departments especially,
you know. But it was—everything was crude. We didn’t have molds to the tools and
things to work with. And you had—you supplied your own tools, mostly. And also the
money that goes with it. [laughter] And then at that time, the—being a Navy man and the
FM-2 came up, being all damaged and the way it was, I went on to that, too. But mainly I
stayed with the FM-2 the longest then.
SL:
Were they both under restoration at the same time?
PW:
Pretty much so.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But yeah, I think the FM-2 was probably started—I have to check dates. My memory
is—probably the—the [80?] was being repaired different places, I think. I didn’t—I lost
track of it for a little while.
SL:
I do have a little history on that. It came out of that first restoration around 1973.
PW:
Okay.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
May of ‘73. So it would have been before that probably that you were working on it, I
would guess.
PW:
Yeah, that—yeah. Probably—yes, I’m sure it was. Because nobody—there was no
evidence that it had been worked on before when I was working on it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But the FM-2, the kids wrecked it—or tore it up, beat it up and everything. And that—so
then I jumped on it, and the first thing I do—one, we had Seafair Weekend here. This
is—we had Seafair Weekend here and—when I was working on it. And the Goodyear
people were there. And I looked at the tires on the FM-2. They were old rotted things,
you know. And so I conned one of the guys from the Goodyear, just—well, I need two
new tires for the FM-2. And so he did. He supplied me two new tires for the—to
restoring the FM-2. [laughs]
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
And so that was one of my earlier contributions.
SL:
So what was your connection with Sand Point?
PW:
My—I was there in reserved status.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, I was in reserve status. And matter of fact, my regular time and reserve time
amounted a little over 30 years.
SL:
Wow. That’s a long time.
PW:
It is. But I enjoyed every bit of it. I was doing something, accomplishing something,
and—
SL:
So the reserve—were the guys that you worked with in the reserve up there, were they
working on the restoration on—at the same time?
PW:
Oh yeah. They got into it. I was behind—helping them. [laughs] No, I recruited them to
come down and help.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so every time—some of them worked other times, too, on it because they wanted to
restore it back, too. And they took the wings totally off. They took everything—I had to
kind of watch them. They’d tear it all apart. Because they cannot make it back flying, and
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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I think that’s the way they were looking at it. We’re going to make it flying again. And
I—no, we can’t do that. [laughs] So in the restoration there, we had Bondo. Some of them
new, but they’re patching their old cars and everything. So we had a bottle of Bondo, and
we smoothed up everything we can. And the color of the—right now was—that’s a later
version of the color of the—for an FM-2. It’s not the original color of that FM-2. We had
the—it was the white underside and the blue top.
SL:
Oh, sure. Because it was sort of [unintelligible 00:14:50] carrier.
PW:
That’s the way it was originally. But that’s all I—it’s still an FM-2. And the—so after we
were through, we had—somebody I guess had worked on the prop and it wasn’t pretty—
not bad, but there was no spinner on it or anything like that. And I says, “Well, I
remember that this looks like—just like the F4F.” And so anyway, I—Spencer, he
happened to have some props over there—or prop motors. I think they were for another
airplane. But it did look like the electric props that they use on the FM-2. But no, the
F4Fs was the one that had the electric prop. And so I got this—wanting something to put
on the nose there to make it—so I got Spencer to give me a motor to mount on the nose
and the prop shaft. [laughter] Oh, this finagling is what you had to do.
SL:
Sounds like it, yes.
PW:
And even Boeing got into it. And I got chastised for that, too, because I went down to our
surplus yard and I happened to see some metal down there. And I thought, hey, I can use
some of that stuff, the extrusions and everything and bents. And, of course, I got
informed later on that this—I’m not supposed to do that. Boeing doesn’t want that metal
put out like that. There’s a law against it, you know. Rule against it. But I got metal.
[laughter] When I set my sights, I tried my best to fulfill.
SL:
Well, it sounds like you really did. You put a lot in on that FM.
PW:
But I had—but a lot—because so much damage to that old bird, that FM, that all these
Navy guys I recruited to help, they—I had them volunteer to help. [laughter]
SL:
Had them volunteer.
PW:
And they did. They liked it. They—but I also included good training for them, too. I set
up a department for parts and stuff and in—and so the people with that rating involved
with it, things like stores and—they used that for their training purposes, too.
SL:
That’s good.
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PW:
And so that’s when we was up here at Sand Point. And that was a real training because
the active—the squadron there at Sand Point had moved up to Oak Harbor, Whidbey
Island, and so there—we didn’t have no more flight operations off of the field.
SL:
Okay. So because I want to say the Museum—or Sand Point closed around 1970. But
sometime shortly before you guys finished the restoration?
PW:
Oh, Sand Point was closed, I think, at that—well, it was closed, yeah, when we did the
work on restoration.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
And so anyway, we—somehow or other, the airplane did get into that little hangar up
there near the seaplane hangar, and that’s when I got involved with it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I worked and tried to get it—but there was no organization to draw money or
anything, so my pocketbook took a beating for a little bit. [laughter]
SL:
Now, who did you work with at the Museum at that time? Or was this kind of—
PW:
Well, I was just a floater in the Museum, you might say. I was not anybody there—I
know Johnson was—had his book going, you know. He did the magazine section for
what we do and—but he was a B-17 man. [laughs] But anyway, and at the same time as
that restoration, Jack Lenhardt down in Oregon, he had an FM-2. And so I helped him get
his FM-2 back in operation again. And then I have the guy that—Len—oh, he bought the
F6 off a—you always saw it parked at SeaTac in the hangar down at the end of the field.
SL:
Oh yeah, I had heard of that.
PW:
Yeah, it was sitting down there. I mean, that’s where operations were going on with air—
you know, hauling passengers to—but [when?] Alaska Airlines is. And somebody at
Alaska Airlines, whether it was a guy—he owned it. And so he bought this from him, and
it had—[unintelligible 00:20:36] Jack Lenhardt in Oregon. And then he had trouble with
that, that his flaps wouldn’t stay up. And so I took all the actuators off the flaps and went
back to Spencer again, and he had a good supply of O-rings. Not by numbers but by sizes
and what you needed them for. And so for a small fee, he’d get—he’d give me all the Orings I needed. And so I put them all back together, check them out, and it worked.
Because, see, they worked—these were on vacuum operated, and so I finally got that—
what in the world, I got a block there on the F6.
00:21:39
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[Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum]
SL:
Well, yeah, you were talking about the F6 in the last interview a little bit and—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Was that the one that somehow you got into a fundraiser for the Museum?
PW:
Oh, I had them both up here for a fundraiser.
SL:
How about—talk about that fundraiser a little bit?
PW:
Oh, that fundraiser. Oh yeah. Well, my good buddy Harl, you know. And I was really
close to these guys. And old Pete, he was in there, too. And—
SL:
So Harl Brackin and Pete Bowers, right?
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Pete Bowers, uh-huh [affirmative]. And Pete and I, we were together before
all this. But anyway, so I says—they were talking about funds, needing funds for the
Museum. I said, “Well, let’s have a fly-in.” Most of them thought I was crazy. “What are
you going to have a fly-in? What are you going to do?” I says, “Just let me go and I’ll
show you.”
And so after so much hem-hawing around, I kind of more or less went on my own to get
it going. And Harl made arrangements to use this ramp over here to have the fundraiser
on, the fly-in. And so I contacted my Oregon buddies, and they both flew their airplanes
up here and [unintelligible 00:23:03] surprise. And Harl, he come in Museum magazines
or papers or something like that, and he set up a table to sell them for advertising for the
Museum. And so here we had a fly-in for the Museum, but I seem to have—I think they
had a lot of people who thought—wanted me doom—you know, doomsday on it. I said,
“No, just stand back. Let me do it.” And when I did, it was a—I mean, my little ad in the
paper about we were going to have it down here on the ramp. And that day, we had
oodles of people coming down and—so I don’t know we—big money. But these guys all
donated all their time. Nobody charged for nothing.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. This would have been early on, like maybe 1966?
PW:
Early ‘50s, something like that. Somewhere ’50, early ‘60s, something—
SL:
Yeah, there was a thing called the Aviation Historical Jamboree. That name rings a bell.
That’s why I’m thinking that—
PW:
[unintelligible 00:24:06]. I didn’t know it had a name. I just wanted to make it happen.
[laughs]
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SL:
Well, what airplanes were involved in it?
PW:
Well, those two fighters from Oregon were the main ones and then I had some locals
around here of the homebuilts—not homebuilts, but PT-19s and—around here. And some
of them showed up. Some didn’t. But I had enough there. I had enough to draw a crowd.
And Harl, he sold his books and magazines or whatever, adverting the Museum and, oh,
that, you know—and he—and so I worked the public. [laughter]
SL:
So this was—yeah, this had to have been one of the first fundraisers like that for the
Museum.
PW:
It was. Yeah, I don’t know of any other before that. We didn’t have no money, and so I
tried to help on that part by having the fly-in. And I wish I could remember the little
details. But I can recall right now how people—World War II pilots would come by and
see this here, these planes, and that’s—they all come up, and they all clamored around
these planes, and they wanted to sit in the cockpits and all that. But I’m going—it wasn’t
my airplane, but you might ask Jack. And he let them, some of the guys. “Oh yeah, I used
to fly one of these FMs off a jeep carrier,” you know, that—and so anyway.
Jack could—I procured a World War II flight jacket, leather flight jacket, and so it was
flown by—worn by a guy that flew off a carrier. And so I gave it to Jack and I says, “This
will match your airplane now.” So [unintelligible 00:26:15] around, wear his old leather
Navy flight jacket, you know. So it always looked good. Yeah, yeah.
SL:
That’s pretty cool.
PW:
That’s kind of a story, but it happened. I made it happen. And, you know, we didn’t have
nothing to start with. You can’t lose anything if you don’t have anything to start with.
SL:
Well, that’s true. Well, you talked about being good friends with Harl.
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Harl—
SL:
Can you talk about that a little bit?
PW:
Oh, Harl was a very nice man and very [unintelligible 00:26:53]. And we became good
friends. And I was—kind of hard to believe when I—word got that Harl had passed
away, you know. Because we hadn’t—we weren’t really close at the time, but
[unintelligible 00:27:17] as far as the Museum goes, but other than that my—but then—I
don’t know how—I just know that he helped me when I needed help. I wanted a backup,
somebody to back up behind me. “I have an idea. Now here’s what I want to do.” And so
he would go through the other way and make me—make it happen with me.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
But I think that was really—as you said earlier, I think that was our first big fundraiser. It
was an air show. Not an air show. Just a display, you might call it. The show was what
we wanted and what we were trying to do. And we had it—had quite a draw, a lot of cars.
Some of the guys I can’t name by name, they helped park some of the cars, get them a
spot to park and—
SL:
And that was about where we are sitting now at the Museum location?
PW:
Oh yeah, right—
SL:
Pretty close to here?
PW:
Yeah, right here. Well, where your airplanes out here are sitting right now, that was the
old 727 delivery center.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, and that—we used that ramp of theirs there. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
Okay. Wow.
PW:
Well, this—a lot of people were involved. I wasn’t the only one. But there had to be
somebody stirring the pot once in a while. [laughter]
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
But it’s all for a good purpose, you know.
SL:
It certainly was, yeah.
PW:
And I believed in it. And I still believe in it today.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, obviously you wouldn’t be here if you didn’t, so that’s
good.
PW:
Yeah.
00:29:11
[Aircraft restoration work, part two]
SL:
In ‘73, after you’d restored—the FM-2 and the Model 80 were both well on the way to
restoration, where did they go after they left Sand Point?
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PW:
Oh, that there—that plane, the FM-2, I heard somebody tell me that there was a group in
Sand—or Spokane. They needed it for their museum, this—and they had people there.
They had manpower to work on it. So they loaned it to—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
…they would loan it to Spokane to—for them to work on the [unintelligible 00:29:54].
Well, fine, if you can get them to work on it. Because my guys have been work, work,
work. They’re getting kind of tired of it, you know, because—
SL:
Well—
PW:
And Bondo and sanding and—
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. The photos that you gave us, though, show that it looked pretty
darn good in ‘73, like it was a good display aircraft.
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, the Whidbey Island people could see I was using Sand
Point facility, which is under their—so they—the head man or commanding officer of the
Naval Detachment up there, he was proud as all can be because I got his—set there and
he got his picture in—with the airplane. And, of course, we were sitting there shaking
hands and big old Building 30 on Sand Point and the—was right in the background.
That—he liked it. He was back into things again. [laughter]
SL:
Well, I think the photos you provided are—they really show a lot of the crew working on
it. But you’re not in those pictures. And you showed me one last time with you in the
picture.
PW:
Well, I didn’t—well, that’s all right. I don’t need that kind of stuff. Just get it done.
SL:
Well, we’d like to have that, though. [laughs] For the record, for the—that would be
ideal.
PW:
No, I never—I’m not double-jointed. I don’t go for a pat on the back or anything. I
want—I’m just a guy that wants things done. Sometimes people don’t like it too well,
but—because they think I’m pushing. But I try not to do that. I just try to get them
involved like I’m involved. And that’s how things go ahead. It’s all like Johnson with his
magazine and all that. We’d talk a lot—part of me was saying, but I encouraged him and
everything about—very nice to get that magazine, [PNAHF?].
SL:
Okay, so I’m not sure who this Johnson is that you’re talking about.
PW:
Well, he was the—everybody called him a journalist. He was a guy, published the—
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SL:
He did the newsletter for the early days of PNAHF? Something like that?
PW:
Yeah. The magazine and the whole bit, yeah.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
Yeah, he had [unintelligible 00:32:25]. But like I say, he liked B-17s a lot. And if you see
a lot of his papers, he’s always B-17s and—but—oh well. The B-17s were quite
something here. Remember—we were going to talk about the Museum, but I’m just
going to tell you about the one in Oregon, how the B-17 up on the pillar under the gas
station.
SL:
In Milwaukie, Oregon. Yeah.
PW:
Oh yes. I’ve been there. I’d go there and I’d watch it and I’d said—and I always made a
comment, but it’s the wrong people I talk to because they were just workers. [laughs] But
about stop the traffic and they’re ruining the airplane. And some of those darn kids went
in there, and they’d break the glasses on the instruments and all that stuff, you know. But
I heard that that’s being restored now.
SL:
Yes, it is.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
His son took it off the pedestal, and they’ve been working on it for a couple of years now.
PW:
Yeah. But I thought—when I heard—maybe from you, but I heard that. But, oh, good.
Somebody has got feelings for it.
SL:
Oh yeah. It’s a very good story. In fact, the Museum had some—our museum had some
surplus parts from the B-17 and we donated them to them.
PW:
I think that’s great, you know. Matter of fact, I just put a shear pin from the B-17
tailwheel—I happened to have a couple, three of them in the—how I got them, I’m not
too sure, really. But anyway, I donated them to the museum down in Mesa, because
there’s a B-17 down there also. And they weren’t no good for me anymore. And so I
donated them there. I said, “You guys are going to be needing these.” They were shear
pins. And they accepted them. And then also, there was a light. It goes to the top turret,
so the sides built in [unintelligible 00:34:50] for it. Anyway, I—this came from another
airplane, you know. I kept it. So I donate that back to the Mesa B-17 and where—you
know, where your top turret [unintelligible 00:35:05] pull that cord and everything. I
donated that to them down there, too, for them to use—put into their airplane. And the
bracketry and everything was there for the—but now they got—now they have a light in
there. [laughs]
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00:35:20
[The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1]
SL:
That’s good. You also mentioned on the Model 80 that we have sitting out there that you
hadn’t seen that for a number of years.
PW:
Oh, no, I haven’t.
SL:
So can you tell us kind of a little about all that?
PW:
That was a—I wasn’t—well, I was in and out. See, I was—I work full-time, so I wasn’t
able to keep on top with these. Whenever I’d hear of a meeting, I’d go to it. But I didn’t
know any more about it than just de-scale and the rust and—but if I was—I was greatly
amazed when I seen how it’s done. Oh, it’s nice. And then when I read more about the
flight operations of the different airlines, how they got started in Alaska, and then this
here is a good tie-in with what I’ve read and—but no, I have not—I didn’t work on it all
that much. Mostly, all I ever was—the engine mounts and stuff like that in the front end.
And where it went, I don’t know. I just—
SL:
It lived in various places.
PW:
Yeah, I—
SL:
It’s something I was going to—
PW:
So it was out of sight. But I had some other stuff to work on. But it was being worked on,
I heard. And I said, “That’s good. As long as it’s work—being worked on.”
SL:
It was. I know there was some work done over at what was called the Tacoma Industrial
Airport, which is the Narrows Airport.
PW:
Oh.
SL:
We had a restoration facility of some sort there, and I was curious if you worked in that at
all.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
But it doesn’t sound like that’s where—
PW:
It wasn’t Nalley Valley Airport? [laughs]
SL:
No, it wasn’t. I was doing some research yesterday to confirm which one it was.
PW:
Oh, I used to fly in and out of there a lot.
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SL:
Oh, did you?
PW:
Old Nalley Valley. Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I thought maybe it was Lakewood or something, but no, it was—
PW:
Yeah, it [unintelligible 00:37:29]—I was up there for the dedication and most of that old
Narrows Airport.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I was one of the first flying in there. [laughs]
00:37:40
[Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories]
SL:
Well, when you were flying, what were you flying about at that time? What airplane, do
you remember?
PW:
Oh. Always had an airplane. I’d buy something and need to repair it, and I’d fix it and I
flew it. Oh, I had three Aeronca Champs at one time.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And one of them I had in good shape, then the others pretty close to being good shape.
The other needed some work, so I found a guy from—came—approached me from
Alaska. And so he—so after a little talking, he bought those three airplanes and all the
spare parts I got, and he’s going to take them up to Alaska and put floats on them.
[laughter] So I made him some kind of a good deal, you know, because I was getting a
little tired of working for a living and working on airplanes on the side.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, it sounded like you did the full-time job as an A&I—or an
A&P.
PW:
Oh yeah, [unintelligible 00:38:45] full-time job.
SL:
And then you’re doing this on the side and had an awful lot that you had on your plate.
PW:
It was. And at times at home, when I was there I’d buy—I’d buy somebody have
something too big for them. It cost them a lot of money. Since I was licensed and all that,
I’d—you know, that’s where I could save. So I’d take it home, and I’d—like one guy had
a broken spar, cracked and it was a broken spar on his—and I bought it kind of rather
cheap. [laughs] And so I took it home and I spliced a spar in, recovered that area back up
and went down and sold it. And that’s—sold the airplane after I repaired it. I’d do that all
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the time. You know, like I talk to people now about the—oh, first—I live out there now,
south of town here. What’s it—
SL:
Oh, Federal Way.
PW:
Federal Way. Yeah. Federal Way International Airport. You knew where that was?
SL:
Well, I think it’s over kind of near where the playing fields are now.
PW:
Yeah, it is. It’s—I mean, I’d looked there—somewhere around there there’s some UC78s buried.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. They bought—somebody bought them. And there was some damage, but they
rot—wood rot on the spars where the clamping was on. And the CAA, at that time, put
quite a restriction on how to repair them. And nobody wanted to do it, so—the cost was
prohibitive, so—I know two of them disappeared, and I—later on I found out they were a
big [unintelligible 00:40:44] there. And so it was dismantled in a way, and this airplane
would sit in there. And he covered over it with dirt.
SL:
[laughs] Oh, geez.
PW:
So up around that field, they’ve got some Useless 78s. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, I guess. Oh, man.
PW:
UC—[unintelligible 00:41:05]. But they have another name for them, too, you know.
You probably heard that, too.
SL:
Hm-hmm [negative]. I don’t think so.
PW:
Double-Breasted Cub.
SL:
Okay, yes. Yeah. I know which ones you mean. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, but it was quite a training airplane. Had the old Shakey Jakes in it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. The old radials, yep. Oh, geez. That’s—yeah, I don’t—Jacobs’s
an engine—you don’t hear about those anymore, the old Jacobs radials.
PW:
I haven’t—I’m not that involved with them anymore, but they were a good engine. But
you had to maintain them. You just can’t fly them without doing some work on them.
And I had one—I get—departing from the Museum here with my other talks. But
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anyway, there—like I say, there were [unintelligible 00:42:07] before—even the hangar
up there is gone now. And that’s it.
SL:
Magnuson Park now, yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Exactly, exactly. Well—
PW:
But like I still remember coming over the power lines—or under. [laughs]
SL:
Under the power lines? [laughs]
PW:
No, not under them because that—there was not too much room, but over. And I
remember—lot of experiences coming through there. But if you just use your head just a
little bit, they didn’t really bother you. They could if you didn’t pay any attention, you
know. But same with everything around here, yeah.
00:42:54
[Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days]
SL:
Well, a couple other folks that that you’ve mentioned, though, too, is Pete Bowers.
PW:
Oh. [laughs]
SL:
Let’s talk about Pete and—
PW:
Pete is a very good friend of mine. And—anyway. I do—I’d help Pete maintain these
airplanes. You know, it needs things done or anything like that, he says, “Paul, I need
help,” and I says, “I’m right there.” And I was with him in this old EAA Chapter 26 we
had, you know.
SL:
Okay. That chapter is still around.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, Pete, he had some—I don’t know how many people, whether it’s still
around or not, but he liked the look of a Corsair, so he decided he’s going to get one. And
I think he called it Shamu.
SL:
Namu, yes. N-A-M-U—
PW:
Namu, Shamu. It was related to the hydroplanes out of [unintelligible 00:44:05]. They got
that kind of a name.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
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PW:
Yeah. You know, and anyway, it’s a spin-off of that. But I helped old Pete on that, and I
thought, oh man, just for—it’s a lot of work. And all the fuel system [unintelligible
00:44:24] and the gas tank area and all that that he’s building up. I helped him a lot in
that. And he liked to work. Pete’s favorite saying is “wood is good.” Yeah, that was his—
when we were coming to airplane. “Wood is good.” That’s what Pete said. And I’ve got
to find that book I told you about his Fly Baby.
SL:
Yeah, you said you had a plan book for us.
PW:
I haven’t had a chance to dig around for it yet, but somewhere, it’s—things are in a little
disarray, this moving around. But he give me one—I think it was the number 18 of the
book. He had a whole batch of them made up, and—people wanting to build his Fly
Baby. And so, okay, that’s good. And at the same time, prior—just prior to his plane, this
other guy down in Oregon had one similar to that, and it’s called the Story.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so the—I had a money interest in the first Story of his when
they brought it here.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I used to fly it around, uh-huh [affirmative]. And then the number—the other Story, the
second Story there, that—let’s see. Let me get it straight. Pete had it. Something like that.
And I says, “Let me have it. I’ll finish it up.” But I did—you know, I had my hands full,
but I was still going to do it. And I did some of the work more—I got—but I don’t know
really what happened to it, that second Story, because it was going to get too—well, me
and—we made a flying club out of that first one.
SL:
That’s what I was going to ask.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Because I’d heard about the Story—the “Story Story” is something that Pete wrote about
that club.
PW:
Yeah, it’s the oldest homebuilt airplane in the Northwest. [laughs]
SL:
Huh.
PW:
It’s an antique homebuilt.
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SL:
So you were in that flying club?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I flew it all around. One time—oh, one time I was flying it and I was
down in—what—Vancouver. I was going down to check on the FM-2 in Oregon. And
one morning I was going—go down to see the [unintelligible 00:47:07] and—because I
was helping Jack get his airplane all together. And it might be of interest to know that—
note that the one that he has is now in Pensacola.
SL:
Oh, that FM-2?
PW:
And that’s the one that I was working on, you know. And matter of fact, I loaned him the
old engine panels off the FM-2, and he even made copies off of it. And so we—you’d
never know the difference. So he used them as patterns to make one for the FM-2.
SL:
For his FM-2, yes.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And then I had another guy down in Oregon. He had an FM-2,
also. So from the old beat-up one we had, I allowed him to take some measurements and
everything off the spar on the vertical fin. There was some old corrosion in the one he
had. And so he made a new spar from using the—for dimensions. So we helped more
planes back in the air. [laughter]
SL:
That’s pretty good.
PW:
[unintelligible 00:48:41] would ever fly again, but they—we got some more flying.
SL:
Yeah, some other aircraft benefitted from the Museum’s aircraft.
PW:
Yeah. And I really don’t—happened to this other one. That—but that’s the way to do it.
You help each other. And that’s what I—how I worked it. You help each other.
SL:
How did you and Pete meet?
PW:
Oh, my gosh.
SL:
If you even remember. That’s quite a while ago, I’m sure.
PW:
Long time ago. And it’s probably in the early days of the EAA fly-in stuff.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And the—and when he was home there on [Ambaum?] and the—and all the—I wonder
whatever happened to the old—he had gliders. He liked gliders, too. And he had a sevenday-old—I’m trying to remember what he called them things, the early days there, but the
Bowlus or something like that.
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SL:
Bowlus was an early sailplane, yes.
PW:
Yeah, uh-huh [affirmative]. And—but he went to—oh, just at this point, but I told you
before, but one time Pete come to me and he says, “Paul, I need help.” I says, “Okay,
Pete. What are you going to do now?” He says, “You have to take me to go recover my
airplane.” “Oh,” I says, “which one?” He says, “That kid of mine,” he says, “he was over
east of the mountains coming back or something like that, and the weather—got
weathered in, so he landed up on Snoqualmie Pass in the parking lot of the cars.” I said,
“Oh, God.” He said—I said, “I’m afraid they’re going to impound it on me.” I said,
“Come on. Let’s go.”
So anyway, I took Pete and flew him over. And they had a little emergency strip down
below there on the—near the highway. And so I took him down there, and the guy down
there gave him a ride up to get his airplane up on the ramp. He got the thing, so he flew it
out of there. And, you know, he beat me home. [laughter] Well, I wasn’t in any big hurry
anyway. But we had—I had some other guys with me, too, and we [unintelligible
00:51:00] for him to get his airplane.
But Pete had a lot of the energy. He was always busy, always going on. We talked about
the Shamu/Namu, whatever you want to call it, you know, all of that. And maybe I
mentioned the other day about his bookkeeping. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah, his filing system?
PW:
His filing system.
SL:
Tell me about that a little bit, yeah.
PW:
But he always wrote articles. He liked to write. He liked to write, and that was good. And
he’d go down there—you want to know something, “Pete, what do you know about this?
What do you know about that?” “Well, let’s go see.” He’d go in the house, front room,
there’s a filing cabinet. One big filing cabinet. A stack of books here, a stack of books
there, a stack—he knew what stacks—I don’t know whether he had them alphabetically
or not, but he didn’t have no filing cabinets. Maybe he did. They might be full. But—
SL:
Wow.
PW:
But he had a heart of gold, he really is. And one time we went to Oshkosh together and—
anyway, he went—he got a room at the college there and—so him and his traveling
companion, they stayed in the college. And so me and the other guys who were with me,
we slept in my tent. I had a tent, and I put the tent up. And one night we had a couple of
new guys come in my tent. And so we introduced him. Oh yeah, one of them was RV, the
guy who designed the RV.
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SL:
Yeah, Dick VanGrunsven.
PW:
Yeah. And so he come in, and then another guy with him, too. He had a homebuilt, also.
And I forgot his name now. But anyway, he—Dick knew him real well. But we had a big
time together, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Did you guys fly like one of your planes back for that or—
PW:
No. I drove a car back because I took a tent. We heard that living was kind of sparse, you
know. So I had sleeping bags and tent in my station wagon. We were really sporting it.
[laughs] And boy, one nice thing about that, the hot water. The hot water tank supply was
laying the garden house out on the lawn. Let the sun warm it up. [laughter] That’s the
way we did it and, you know. And some of the guys there, as far as sleeping goes, we all
kind of crowded into the tent and in the back end of the station wagon. And we had—we
said—it happened to be raining and I happened to be in the low spot in the tent, so my
sleeping bag got kind of wet. The other guys, they were dry and in the back end of my
car, and I got wet. [laughter]
SL:
Something wrong with that.
PW:
Oh, it was—laugh about it now, but it was a good time. Those were good times, you
know. Like I say, the hot water was—the water was the sun warm up in the garden hose.
And guys like, oh, Jim Bede and Burt Rutan, and we’re all together chewing the fat all—
and they all moved on. Old Bede was going to do so much. He’s got a nice little
firecracker there, but he couldn’t get the engine for it right. So everybody bought plans,
but I don’t know how many—he designed it to be a jet engine, I think.
SL:
The BD-5, yes.
PW:
Yeah. BD-5, yeah. But a lot of people, they’d buy portions of the plane. And I didn’t hear
too many guys—later on—was it—one of the pop—Pepsi-Cola or something like that.
Didn’t they have—they got five of them together?
SL:
They did. That’s right. I’d forgotten that.
PW:
Yeah. And they had a little flying group here and that kind of…
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. There is a guy in Federal Way that has one of the little jets.
PW:
Oh, is that right?
SL:
And he performs at air shows.
PW:
I’ll be darned.
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SL:
And he stores it in his backyard.
PW:
Oh my, oh my. But—
SL:
So was one of the other guys Molt Taylor, by any chance?
PW:
Molt—no, Molt was down in his car. I don’t—but his flying car and—yeah, Molt was
at—we just moved in from Illinois with the home—you know, the—moved into
Wisconsin for display. And we just relocated, the EAA—
SL:
They came—it went from Rockford to Oshkosh.
PW:
Yeah, Rockford—should be—Rockford—[unintelligible 00:56:58] from Rockford.
[laughter] But yeah, they just recently got there, and then—but it’s right in the very
beginning of this changeover, you know. We had been there too long. But—
SL:
So—
PW:
But getting back to Pete, the—I miss Pete because we did have a good talking
relationship, you know.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And—
SL:
Well, the Namu was designed to be a two-person airplane. Did you ever get a chance to
fly that one? Or was it—
PW:
Nah. No, no. No, I just had the biplane, which had the old—we had the biplane version of
the Fly Baby.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But I didn’t—we—I think he had talked about it. We had Cece Hendricks.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I know, Cecil, yeah. Or knew him, yes.
PW:
Yeah, okay. But Cece was involved there, too. He was a [worker?]. And so—old Pete, he
had a lot of—oh, he had a lot of help. All he had to do was ask. You know, because
everybody would help him and he helped them, whatever they needed, so that kind of—
and—
SL:
So you flew the Fly Baby? Or the Bi-Fly Baby?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I flew it. And then when he moved, he made a biplane out of the Fly
Baby, but that was another [unintelligible 00:58:36]. It was up to [unintelligible 00:58:38]
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to a fly-in at that time. And I hadn’t flown his—this one yet. And so I was over looking
things over, and he had me go in and—“Sit down,” he says. “Check it out. Sit down and
see how it fits.” And I went in and I says, “Pete, I’m not as long-legged as you are.”
[laughs] But he made—he’d put the rudder pedals in there for his legs, and so I stretched
out. I think I put a seat cushion behind me to help me get forward more.
And so that—he—so somehow or other he wanted to prop the engine and—“Okay.” So
check—go and check the engine out. “Yep, fine, sounds good. Everything looks good.”
And so the next thing I know, I got an old cloth helmet shoved over my ears—or head,
and he says, “Take it out for a spin. Take it—go chase those guys.” [laughter] There’s
more—a lot more Fly Babies around [unintelligible 00:59:47]. And I—“Well, all right.”
But I didn’t catch any of them, but I did get in the air with them, though. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah. What did it fly like?
PW:
Huh?
SL:
How was the control of the airplane?
PW:
Oh, fine. Just—an airplane’s an airplane. [laughter] You got a propeller that lifts you off
the ground.
SL:
Yeah, all true. All true.
PW:
No. No, it was fine. I mean—I can’t—
SL:
Yeah, nothing unusual about it or anything.
PW:
Nothing unusual.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
You know. But, yeah.
SL:
Well, we have that airplane, you know, up at our restoration center in Everett.
PW:
Yeah, that’s what you said. But the one that’s hanging in the Museum, I remember the
guy that—I don’t remember him that well, but I remember he—was he a doctor or
something or a dentist or—
SL:
I don’t recall.
PW:
He had—what his occupation was, but—did you ever see the Volksplane?
SL:
I’ve heard of it. I’ve never seen one.
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PW:
That’s the one with the Volkswagen engine. Well, I built one of them. Not complete. I
got it almost complete, and one of the Boeing engineers, he likes it, too. So, okay, I’ll sell
it to you. But I didn’t have any wings for him. But I told him, I says, “I know a guy that
has a pair of wings for it.” And so we went over and he says, oh, he’ll sell it to him. So
there a guy got him an airplane and two wings. No fabric on it or anything. [laughs]
SL:
Do you know if that ever got finished?
PW:
I don’t know. But he went back east with it.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, they—no reason why he couldn’t go and—remember Jim Wickham?
SL:
I know the name. Didn’t know him.
PW:
He had—he made a homebuilt twin-engine airplane. Used to keep it up at Thun Field.
SL:
Yes, yes.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. I flew that, too, you know.
SL:
Oh, interesting. Because the last I heard that was in restoration.
PW:
Oh, down here?
SL:
No, [unintelligible 01:02:07]—
PW:
Oh, it hanging here in the high bay area here for a while.
SL:
Oh, it was?
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah, it was hanging back in the corner.
SL:
Oh, interesting.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Last I heard, it was—there was a wing spar for it down at Crest Airpark. And they pulled
it out of the hangar, and a guy had bought it and—bought the whole thing and was trying
to restore it.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
I don’t know what the status is.
PW:
I haven’t heard anything on it for years.
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SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
But Jim, he was a good friend, too. He was an aerodynamicist with Boeing, you know.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
And he had a brother-in-law, Verne Hudson. And there’s another thing. Verne was a—as
I recall, this wind tunnel you have in the old Red Barn area in there, Verne built that.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. But it was made from some drawings he got from somewhere else. But he
designed that—he built it.
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
That Verne, he—yeah, we spent—incidentally, just off—I had a little—I have a—usually
have fun with a lot of people that I associate with, and Verne is a—he’s a good—you
know—the plane is—they took—showed us the—what was it—the aerospace engines—
the airplanes up above, and they built a—mounted on top of a 747.
SL:
Oh, the Space Shuttle, yes.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Went into space. Oh, it’s—well, they—Verne had—he designed that to hold
that airplane and—but anyway, we worked together. But getting back to my story, but—
I’m always joking a little bit to make things go, and I had a big rubber mount and—big
mount. And so I taped it up one day, just hung it up on the—outside the engineering
room, and I said, “Verne Hudson’s crushing tool.” [laughter] He got a kick out of that.
Yeah. God, yeah. God, my mind goes in tangents.
SL:
Well, I understand that, yeah. It really does.
PW:
Because I got too many—I got so many things to say, and I don’t think I have time to say
it.
SL:
Well, and I—the other thing I’m a little bit curious about is Molt Taylor and the Aerocar
and—
PW:
Yeah, but—
SL:
…what do you know about Molt, or your relationship?
PW:
Well, I don’t—I just knew of his—association.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
I knew this. When we all went back to Oshkosh there in the beginning, he was along for
the—but I don’t think he had his Aerocar there with him. But he was there, and he—I
think he was in the gang [unintelligible 01:05:21] to get there [unintelligible 01:05:23],
shooting the breeze, you know.
SL:
Well, it sounds like it was a pretty small, close-knit group of people here in the
Northwest.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We were all good. We were all close. We all went—and Bill Lawson,
he had a Thorp T-18 he was building. I used to help him build that up there. Cece
Hendricks’s dad, he said—his was pretty much complete, his T-18. And I helped Cece a
little bit on his, and there were some other people. Then one time one of the guys was
building a—I forget what model it is now that he was building. But there was a guy back
east was selling canopies for the homebuilt, and he wanted quite a bit of money for it. So,
along with Pete, we made a dummy-up, cleaned it up, that matched the profile of the—
and drilled all kinds of holes in there. So we did run the vacuum on it, put the plaque—
plexi—
SL:
Oh, gotcha.
PW:
…back and moved back and formed our own canopy. This is just like the one the guy
wanted to sell for a small fortune. [laughter] But, you know, if you can’t get it, you can’t
afford it, make it.
SL:
You figure out how to make it, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. But later on, there was some other things like that. Make a Mustang—was it a
Mustang? Yeah, fighter. Yeah, we made that—made our own canopies for that, too.
SL:
You were really involved in the early homebuilding days.
PW:
Oh, yes. I enjoyed it. Just like I enjoyed my—all of our stuff that we have now in the
Museum, you know. But—
SL:
Any other folks that you remember from the Museum? You know, like—
PW:
Oh, my.
SL:
…like, oh, the Elliott Merrills, maybe, of the early days. Or Kit Carson, Jack Leffler?
PW:
Yeah. [pauses] If they worked with me, I remember them.
SL:
Oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah.
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PW:
Yeah, but some of the people were—I classify them as administrative people. And me, I
was the working people. [laughs] So I didn’t get out too much, but—
SL:
Well, it sounds like you’re—
PW:
What we needed.
SL:
Well, yeah, Harl was the one of the early ones of those. And then, of course, there’s the
board. So your relationship really was with Harl in this early on.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that’s right. But yeah, we did have—we had a lot of things—
talked about a lot of things, do a lot of things. What—if I remember right, at one time—I
may be getting something mixed up here. At one time, I think, in the beginning, we didn’t
have any place for meetings and things, so I believe that we used the Chamber of
Commerce building out on Renton Field. We used that for office—for meeting places.
SL:
That was one of the first addresses for the PNAHF, was—it was. You’re right, you’re
right.
PW:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s where we—where we had our meetings, you know.
SL:
How many people would show up for something like that?
PW:
Oh, maybe half a dozen to a dozen.
SL:
Really? Wow.
PW:
Yeah. But a lot of them curious about what we’re doing or something like that, or they
wanted something already made up. No, we have to make it. [laughs] You got to restore
it, you know. We involved homebuilding in there, too, along with—and that’s—
SL:
Oh, that makes sense.
PW:
Yeah, so we used that along with homebuilding to keep the stimulus going, you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Was Pete there at some of those early meetings?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
SL:
Kind of assumed he would, but—
PW:
Yep. Yep. Well, he—Pete was a [unintelligible 01:09:58] person and—but most of the
time Pete was really involved in was when we’d have the meetings at his place.
SL:
Oh, you did?
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PW:
Yeah, in his hangar, so to speak. [laughs] But you’d be surprised at the stuff that was in
that place. And they added an attic on it, too, you know. And I keep looking in the
Museum there, looking up at the old wing warpers up there and all that. I wonder how
many of these did Pete have up in his attic, if any of those?
SL:
That’s a good question. I don’t know.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
You know, I—
PW:
But he had a quite a few of them up there, and I’m looking—I’m saying, “Have I looked
at that before,” you know?
SL:
You may well have, yes.
PW:
Probably, uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah.
SL:
Yeah, he had a lot—
PW:
But Jim Wickham was a good—he was an aerodynamicist, and he was involved with a
lot of that stuff, too, you know, helping. And we were one big happy family, the way I
looked at it.
SL:
It sounds like you really were.
PW:
We all had one purpose in mind: to keep them flying. [laughs]
SL:
Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Well, that’s really good, Paul.
PW:
Yeah. You got to help each other, you know. As I say, Bill Lawson, when he’s building
his T-18, I helped him. Other people I helped there, too. And I helped anybody if I had
time to do it. I did—
SL:
It sounds like you put an awful lot of time in on—
PW:
Oh, I did. I did.
SL:
…volunteer time in the early days.
PW:
Yeah. My family noticed that, too.
SL:
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? [laughs]
PW:
Well, they—“Don’t you ever stay home?” [laughs]
SL:
I have a feeling that probably happened with a lot of guys in the early days.
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PW:
Yeah, and—yeah, because—yeah, that’s true.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
PW:
And, yeah, not only did I do that kind of—all that kind of stuff, I got roped into helping
three—two—maybe three once in a while—seaplane operations off of Lake Union. And
old Kurtzer [Lana Kurtzer] down there, you know.
SL:
That name rings a bell, too.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
[Main?] Seaplane Service. And the other guy up there, he operated on a shoestring.
[laughs] But anyway, that—those were fun things.
SL:
Well, it sounds like we kind of picked your brain pretty well on the Museum, I think.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, everything was—everything we wanted to—wanted the Museum a go.
And I’m really proud. I’m really proud when I go around—I go around every day. I go
around and look at everything.
SL:
That’s really good.
PW:
And nowadays with the younger generations, they go by, they look at all this other stuff.
Well, I’ll tell—John Glenn, you know. I’ve told you about John Glenn. He and I used to
compete in tracks at the high school level, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
We were in the same area in Ohio. And I always tell you that—well, John, he beat me in
track, dashes. But when it come to pole vaulting, I beat him. And then in retaliation of
that, he joined the Astronaut Corps so he could get higher than I did. [laughs]
SL:
Exactly right. Oh, that’s good. That’s good.
PW:
So that’s why he became an astronaut.
SL:
There you go. Yeah. You pushed that. You caused that. Yeah. [laughs]
PW:
No, I [unintelligible 01:14:10] New Concord and—
SL:
Yeah. Yeah.
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PW:
I think I recall, if I got right, that—but we’d have a break in our events. We used to—he
had a grandmother lived right near there, right near the museum—I mean the college
there, and we’d go down there and eat her cookies and drink her milk. [laughter]
SL:
Nothing wrong with that. [unintelligible 01:14:44].
PW:
Yeah. It was just a little small town. But people seemed to get together then, you know.
Do things together.
SL:
Yeah. And that’s one of the things I think we try to do here, is—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
…get people together and talking about those times and learning history.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
And you’ve been a tremendous help for that.
PW:
Oh, I try. I don’t—
SL:
With this and with people.
PW:
Like I say, I don’t—I’m not double-jointed to pat myself on the back or anything like
that. Long as I can make something happen, that’s what I want.
SL:
Well, we definitely appreciate you here, that’s for sure.
PW:
Yeah. But right now I wondered where—what can I do to—beside going around talking
to people.
SL:
You’re doing it right now.
PW:
Yeah, I know, but—
SL:
You really are. This is something that we appreciate.
PW:
Yeah. But I hope it’s—I hope you really censor all this stuff. [laughter]
SL:
Not particularly, no.
PW:
Well, if I can get some—like some young kid that has an interest and coming in here, I
like to—I talk to him, so I—find out what his level, what the—what he knows and what
he, you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
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PW:
First thing I do when [unintelligible 01:16:13] the entry now, you know, you see old
Eddie Rickenbacker, the muddy boot on that tire, you know. Eddie, you’re not supposed
to do that. Now, Eddie and I flew together one time. And so that’s why I laugh—I pass it
on because some of the people don’t realize what I’m talking about.
SL:
No, I’m sure that’s very true.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But I’m saying—I said, “Now, look at that guy. He’s got his old,
muddy shoe on top of that airplane tire there, and he shouldn’t do that.” [laughs] Maybe it
might lead to something else on that—about that airplane.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So it’s trying to inspire.
PW:
And maybe something on what they’re doing—they shouldn’t do, you know.
SL:
That makes good sense, Paul. Yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. It’s all—but—
01:17:08
[Stories about local airports]
SL:
Well, I think we can probably kind of wrap it up for today.
PW:
Oh, fine.
SL:
If you’re good?
PW:
Yeah. Whatever.
SL:
And I want to see if there’s questions from anyone else that you had? Yeah.
KELCI HOPP:
You might have to repeat this. I don’t know. But yeah, we’re all so
interested in local history of all types.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Say it—I’m sorry.
SL:
Local history of all types.
KH:
Are we able—maybe you could tell us like a story or two about flying into any of the
local airports [unintelligible 01:17:37]?
PW:
Oh.
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SL:
Yeah.
KH:
Yeah.
PW:
Oh yeah.
KH:
You mentioned Tacoma Narrows, specifically.
PW:
Well, we got one airport we used to have over on Lake Washington there, you know.
There’s a—there was an airport down there where we waterskied from. Did you ever hear
about that? Right down on the—right on the edge of the water.
SL:
No.
PW:
The guy sold Mooneys down there. And the Mooney airplanes he sold, would you
believe it, they had Curtiss—not Curtiss—what’s that airplane engine now? What’s—but
they spun the prop by using prop—belt—fan belts like you use on your car for the water
pump.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And that’s what you use. What in the world. I had it on the tip of my tongue. Crossley.
SL:
Oh yeah. [unintelligible 01:18:39] the small Crossley cars.
PW:
Crossley engines, yeah. They had a Crossley engine there, and you spun the prop by
using fan belts like you use in your car for turning a generator or something. Oh, that’s
another thing we always did. We’d—you’re talking about modernization. We used to
have the wind generators we’d mounted on the struts, and you were flying along and it
spun the—which charged your battery. [laughs] You didn’t have generators on your
engines. You let the—you spun the prop on the generator in—on the strut to charge the
battery. Oh, okay. Now you have a—oh my God, now you got me talking. But, you
know, the old hog farm out in Maple Valley there.
SL:
I don’t. I’d love to hear about it. Yeah.
PW:
Well, it’s an old gravel pit, actually. And you go to land, you think you’re going to lose
the fabric on your airplane because—but what’s that lake out there? Lake Wilderness, is
it?
SL:
Lake Wilderness.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Right near there. And it’s a rock gravel, and you go to land in it and your
tires threw rocks and—
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SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Well, are there airports around here that you flew into that aren’t here anymore?
PW:
They’re all gone. [laughs] Well, yeah, you got—oh, you got one up north here, this—I
never flew in and out of it. I’ve been by it many times. But it’s up near Whidbey—not
Whidbey, but—
PEDER NELSON:
Vashon?
SL:
Yeah, Vashon or—
PW:
I’m trying to get—Monroe, up in that area, they had one in there and—by the lake. There
was a lake up there. Matter of fact, I have something of—all the old airports that used to
be around here. And I’ve been into a lot of them, like—let me think of some more.
SL:
Well, you mentioned the Federal Way one, down in that area.
PW:
Oh, the Federal Way one and the—now the Lake Washington one—one on Lake
Washington there, around the edge of the water. And, oh, remember one of the—my—
I’m searching my mind real quick here. The town lies south of Kent.
SL:
Um, is it the—
PW:
Don’t get lost now. [laughs]
SL:
The one by where Smith Dairy was? Or was—
PW:
Oh, Smith. Oh yeah. Ben. Oh yeah, that’s a story in itself. [laughs]
SL:
Let’s hear it. [laughs]
PW:
Old Ben, he had—his family was like into flying, you know. And yeah, Ben built that
up—that airport. Or the family did, because they all liked to fly. And anyway, they had
the old wooden hangars across from it, if you can remember or ever seen them. But it was
a decrepit place. I rented one of them and—anyway, let’s get back to the airport. So
where we had the—the point of land/take off, he decided he needed more cattle feed. So
he plowed it up and planted corn in it. And so he said, “If you guys want,” he says, “you
can still keep your hangars and everything, but you have to land and take off on the taxi
strips.” And some of the taxi strips were, oh, probably as much as ten feet wide. [laughs]
SL:
Oh, geez. Pretty narrow. Pretty narrow.
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PW:
No, it—they were very narrow. Very narrow. That was a taxi strip. So you’d land and
take off on the taxi strips. And then those swallows. Oh my God. I had a Stinson, and I’d
have to shoe them out of the wings and everything. And you got your intakes. You know,
they like to come in there, especially if you’re flying to come in, put your airplane, then
your cylinders are nice and warm, and they’d like to build a nest right on top of the
cylinders. And so you got—that’s one of your pre-flights, was wondering did you take
the nests all out. [laughter]
SL:
Oh, geez.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And that—Auburn is the name of the bridge I skipped over a bit ago.
SL:
That’s what you were thinking of. Okay.
PW:
Okay. But we used to have an airport on top of the hill there. Al [Nichols?] was—him
and—oh, I know that guy pretty good. But they had the airport up at the top of the hill.
And on Indian land.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
I didn’t know about that.
PW:
Then they finally got—the Indians wanted their land back, so they had to go relocate
again. So they went over into Covington.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
That the—Al and his buddy—
SL:
Is that where Crest Airport came from then?
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. And that’s where the—the little mound at one end of the runway,
you know. You’d have to clear it. And [unintelligible 01:24:45] right there, too, by—and
it made a nice place to land and take off, too. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, it would have been.
PW:
It did. Oh, I’d fly in and out there many times.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Nobody ever—you’re looking around and nothing around. So, okay, go down in this nice
smooth place. I’m going to go down there and shoot a few landings. [laughter] But yeah,
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that’s Crest. And oh God, let me see. But anyway, getting back, that’s—then Al and his
friend, they built the one on Covington now, the airport there. They built—they
developed that, built that up. And they had old school buses, and they used to—all the
stuff they collected were stored in school buses on the airport. And the storage for that.
And then eventually they started building some few little hangars around there and all
that.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I believe his daughter owns it now.
PW:
Huh?
SL:
I think his daughter owns the airport now.
PW:
But, you know, Al married Ben Smith’s daughter. Yeah. [laughs] And that’s where they
got a lot of footing, you know. I don’t think Al had that kind of money, but he had some.
But he had the desire. So Ben—the family backed him up, and he married Ben Smith’s
daughter. And I’m trying to think—Ben’s son. He had Renton Aviation.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Down where the Boeing Flying Club is now and all that. Yeah, he owned that down
there. And I flew out there. I got my commercial rating from them guys down there.
[laughs] Oh, that’s another story. But anyway, the—but that was a—but I’m thinking—
I’m drifting on this because Al [unintelligible 01:27:15], this is where he bought the farm.
He took off one day. And I think he had a PT-19, and he crashed it on takeoff, I think.
SL:
Down in Auburn?
PW:
No, at Crest.
SL:
At Crest.
PW:
Yeah. In the beginning. Yeah. And a fellow that he—partner there—I know him. I
can’t—names—my whirly-gig up here needs to reminisce a little bit. But anyway, that’s
Al’s partner up there. He had a beautiful airplane, polished up real good and—but
anyway, I wonder whatever happened to him. But Al crashed and bought the farm there
off the north end of the airport there. And I still remember because that little high-rise of
mountain—or hill coming into the airport, you had to turn to get around it, approach it.
SL:
It’s known as kind of an awkward airport to get into, yes.
PW:
Yeah. But it’s very easy to do. You just keep your head and know what’s going on. You
have to look out. Use the Mark Eight. [adjusts glasses and laughs] You ever hear that
expression?
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SL:
I have heard that before, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. Use the Mark Eight. [adjusts glasses]
SL:
Explain that, if you would.
PW:
Well, it’s your eyeballs. That’s what we used to call them. “Look out. You know, get
your head out of the cockpit, and look where you are, you know.” And then down in—
now Kent developed—when it went on down to Auburn, we built that plane—us people
in Kent Airport at Ben’s place. We were all kind of got back behind the—that
development and—but we had a lot of people help. Now they’ve got a racetrack. [laughs]
SL:
Right. Yeah.
PW:
Right beside it—no, parallel, but—that was something, because a lot of people flying out
of the Boeing Field and general aviation guys, they—sometimes I wonder about them.
Because they’d fly around, they’d be going heading south, they’d tend to fly over our
field there. And one day, one guy got—this is all [unintelligible 01:30:19] you’re just like
here. But anyway, this one guy came in there. He cut me right out of the downwind leg. I
was getting in for landing, and he just cut me out of the pattern.
And so I let him go ahead, moved over, let him do his thing. And I said—so he landed
and I landed right back—right behind him. I didn’t want to lose him. I just landed right
behind him. And I see him taxi over to one of the hangars, getting ready to go out there.
And we—how the conversation went. Oh, okay, well, I followed him in there, and he
looked at me because he thought I was too close to him. I says, “I didn’t want to lose you.
I have information for you.” And, “What’s that?” I says, “Do you know where you just
came in from?” “Yeah.” And I says, “Do you know what you just did?” “Yeah.” And I
says, “Well…” So somehow or other, there’s an opening. He says, “Well, I radioed that I
was coming in for a landing.” I says, “Yeah. What if a guy don’t have a radio to hear
you?” I said, “Use your head.” And I followed him right in there. So I—in the
conversation, I says, “Well, you radioed that you were coming in, but I think you’d be
safer if you take that radio out of your airplane, throw it over in the field somewhere, and
start using your eyeball.” [laughter] I said, “You’re going to live longer.” And I think I
made a point with him.
SL:
Good. Yeah. Yeah.
PW:
But that was kind of a raceway there. They’d come out of Boeing Field or north end
and—we had another airport up above Juanita or Kenmore up in the hillside there. Yeah,
we had another airport up there. And what—that’s a per—the guy, the—Renton Airport
there had general aviation repair shop. Ed—I can’t remember what his name is. Well,
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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anyway, he was the maintenance guy up there. I used to fly up there and take people in
there and get them to come up and use the field. But they soon developed into houses.
They took the airport out and they made houses out of them. And Ed—Port Orchard
Airport, what a difference that was and what it used to be. [laughs] And, oh, I’d have to
sit down and think long to tell you the number of airports we had there. But they
weren’t—
SL:
Speaking of a few—
PW:
The ones I’m talking about, they weren’t really developed into anything big because of
the—of all the modernization going on.
SL:
Most of them became houses, probably. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. Then they had—then they come out with all kinds of electronics and all of this
now, and so everybody flies by pushing a button now. And they—
SL:
That’s quite true.
PW:
We got a good example of that right now on our 737. And I—this is something else, but I
recall—when I heard it, that they had blamed something with autopilot. But you got a
[unintelligible 01:34:23] angle-of-attack indicator out here. You can [unintelligible
01:34:26] know what it’s for and what it—but the—it affects the autopilot in a way. I
flew a—this Dash 80 you see around here. I flew that from California clear up to
Portland, Oregon, and my autopilot was out. And that’s why I was flying. And I didn’t
see nothing wrong to flying—I flew the airplane. I just flew the airplane. And Lew
Wallick [S. L. “Lew” Wallick], he gave me a real about two-minute check-out. [laughter]
Yeah, he knew I flew.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And so we knew the autopilot was bad, and we had a little—we didn’t do something right
to begin with. It’s all right, but we filed inflight or—and so while the other guy, the
copilot, whoever it was that day, was doing the inflight. Then I was nominated to go up
there and take us home. That [unintelligible 01:35:38]. [laughter] So anyway, that—I—
my mind was taking off on a tangent there. But when I heard this going on now, how
could that happen? You—a person has to feel something. My—why is all of this going
on? Why did—you know, it’s hard for me to understand.
SL:
It is. Yes, I agree.
PW:
Because you’re—first you’re a pilot. You’re not going—you’re not on a Sunday drive
somewhere. You’re drive—you’ve got people with you and all that. You’re responsible,
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so know your airplane. And so what, something didn’t work properly. Well, correct for it.
Disengage it. Dismantle it. So like I say, came all the way from California clear into
Portland, Oregon. My autopilot was out all the way. And I found that the trim wheel was
very nice.
SL:
It worked just fine, yeah?
PW:
Yeah. Real easy. Now, maybe a trim wheel went out, too. I don’t know. Did they sheer
the shaft on it or something? [laughs]
SL:
Yeah, I don’t know.
PW:
No, I don’t know the whole story. But I shouldn’t even talk about this because it’s—I
don’t know the whole story. Because the smart—the push-button flying nowadays. Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. We’ll find out the story on that, but you’re right. There’s so
much of flying is automated now, yes.
PW:
Yeah, it’s—but you don’t—how could they enjoy flying?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
How can they enjoy it? Enjoying is you’re in control of something that’s going to where
you want it to go. And your car, if your car was going down the road and you—and your
engine dropped out on the ground or something, what do you do? [laughter]
01:37:54
[Closing thoughts]
KH:
I think [unintelligible 01:37:55] good to wrap up on the question like we had ended with
last time.
PW:
I’m sorry. I got off on a tangent.
KH:
[unintelligible 01:38:00]. Now that we’ve talked about modernization and the Museum
and all that good stuff, maybe we could chat a little—or at least have you chat a little bit
about what you’d like to leave someone with after having viewed your oral history again,
now that we’ve done the second session.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I would just like to—my—like my position in there in the Museum, I’ve wanted
[unintelligible 01:38:27] this is the real world. This is how it was. This is how—this
going at—how we’re doing it and be conscious of what’s going on around you.
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Nothing—it’s not push button. Get rid of the—if you got one, throw it in the seat behind
somewhere. But use your head. That’s—know what you’re going to do. Don’t just say
it’s another piece of equipment, fancy stuff to play games on, like Pac-Man or something.
This is not Pac-Man. This is flying. [laughs] That’s what—know—God gave us that, you
know. Let us do what we’re doing. Let’s don’t play games with it.
But, of course, modernization, I mean, we have people, but we’re all standing around
letting somebody do something for us. Do something for yourself. And he gave you—
gave you the air. He gave you the airplane. Now fly it. [laughter] Don’t depend on
somebody else to do it totally. First of all, if you’re up to that high [unintelligible
01:39:56] you’re, in a commercial sense, a pilot, you’re in charge of something. Be aware
of what you got a hold of and keep on. Don’t just say, “Oh, I think it will.” Make it do it.
Oh, maybe I shouldn’t even talk that way, but—because I don’t know everything. But I
know a little bit about a lot of things, though. Safety is one thing, and that’s number one
if you’re off the ground.
But anyway, I have a question as far as the Museum goes. This FM-2 we have down
there, I’ve heard all kinds of things. People says that’s the one that was up on the field.
That—I don’t—I doubt that. But—because I look it over, and it’s not the same way. I
know that spinner on the prop was not the one I put on there, but—and I don’t see—I
can’t see my Bondo patches all over the place there.
SL:
Nope, those are gone.
PW:
But what happened?
SL:
Well, it—the first restoration you did—and you’re right, it went to Spokane after that.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
After that, it went to Long Island, New York to the Cradle of Aviation, and then some
restoration was done there.
PW:
Oh, okay. I didn’t know that part.
SL:
And then it came back here, and it was completely re-done starting in 2002. The places
where the Bondo was, they took the skin off. They replaced the skin.
PW:
Oh, that’s a lot.
SL:
So they replaced virtually everything on that aircraft.
PW:
That’s right. You had to buy a whole new fuselage.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Yeah. They re-built it.
PW:
Yeah. Oh—
SL:
There were two different men in charge of it. Tom Cathcart, who was our Restorations
Manager, was the one overall in charge of it. So I guess—we have some fabulous
pictures of it.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. Okay. But I mean, I didn’t—I couldn’t put my—
SL:
Oh, it’s definitely different than what you remember.
PW:
Yeah. Because I seen it when it was new.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And then I seen it when it was damaged, beat up. And I tried to get it back as near new as
I could.
SL:
Oh yeah. Given the time, you did a wonderful job.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
No doubt about it. You bet.
PW:
But—and then my old billfold was pretty skinny, too. [laughter] Because we had no
means. We had no budget. We had no monies.
SL:
Oh, I understand that, Paul, for sure.
PW:
But anyway that’s—but we got it. We got—
SL:
That’s right.
PW:
We may not have the original, but it got close to it, though.
SL:
You bet.
PW:
We got an FM-2.
SL:
That’s right. That’s right.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But the trying to make it look like an F4F now, that’s something
else. But I—now, this is just between us, but an 1820 engine, electric prop on it, that
makes it—and then motor on the front end, they—it somehow or other—it’s hard for me
to—but we’ve said something, but they’re making it look like an F4F instead of an FM.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
That, I wouldn’t know. I don’t have that expertise. [laughs]
PW:
Oh, yes. No, but all the FMs that I have ever been in contact were with hydromatic props,
not electric props. But the F4Fs, we had electric props, all of them.
SL:
Okay. Yeah, that’s something I wouldn’t—
PW:
But when the FMs were [unintelligible 01:44:18], they got—we changed the engine,
1820s, then put on. Then we had the hydromatic props in there and—but somehow or
other, I can’t find a key to find out—it’s nice for museum. I don’t think many people will
know about that except me.
SL:
That’s probably right. [laughs]
PW:
But that is not the airplane that I worked on. But it’s nice. And the paint job is definitely
not the airplane that I worked on.
SL:
No. Mm-mmm [negative].
PW:
But that’s all right because that is a later version. That paint job come out many years
after—all of them. They—that was out several years after this, you know, before that
color—that [paint job?] was done, that—what’d they call—they called that gray—blackgray? Gray-black or—[laughs].
SL:
Yeah, I don’t know. That’s—yeah.
PW:
Oh, okay. No, no, don’t—I’m not—
SL:
Yep.
PW:
Now, I’ve got to be quiet. I’m not degrading anything.
SL:
No.
PW:
I’m just—the transition. The—you know. But I got pictures showing the color and
everything on it.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And the only reason I put that—because I couldn’t get a hydromatic prop dome to put on
there. That’s why that’s on there. That was my fault. [laughter] I didn’t want to a bare
prop—bare shaft out. But the splines are the same. Both the engines. Everything’s the
same as far as—so it would work. But it never flew that way.
SL:
It didn’t fly that way, no. I understand what you’re saying, Paul.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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PW:
But it—don’t make a big thing out of it.
SL:
No, no.
PW:
Let’s get an F6 in now.
SL:
[laughs] I’d love to.
PW:
I—Bill Compton. Bill Compton is the guy who bought the F6.
SL:
That’s the name—oh, okay.
PW:
And I forget who in Alaska Airlines—one of the guys that fly—one of the top guys in
Alaska Airlines owned this. And Bill bought it from him. But he cracked it up down in
Oregon, and I don’t know where it went after that, you know, how bad it was and all that,
how torn up it was. But Jack Lenhardt, he’s got a big crop-dusting operation down there
in the valley in Willamette. And—
PEDER NELSON: Well, I think this is a good spot that we should just call it [unintelligible
01:47:26].
SL:
Yeah, I think we’re—
PW:
Hey. Hey, you guys, it’s time to go home.
SL:
It’s 2:00. Yeah, it’s time. [laughs]
PW:
No, I told you last time. Don’t get me started. I can’t—you can’t—
PN:
Well, thank you. Thank you, Paul.
KH:
Thanks, Paul.
SL:
Thank you very much, Paul.
PW:
Okay, well—
01:47:40
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Weaver_Paul_P2.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.</p>
<p>Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois). Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).</p>
<p>After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company. Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft, including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.</p>
<p>Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Weaver_Paul_P2
Title
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Paul Weaver oral history interview (Part 2 of 2)
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Paul L. Weaver and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, May 24, 2019. Part 2 of 2.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
Coverage
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Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Aviation mechanics (Persons)
Boeing Company
Boeing Model 80A-1
Bowers (Peter M.) Fly Baby
Experimental Aircraft Association
General Motors (Eastern) FM-2 Wildcat
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation
United States. Navy
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 47 min., 40 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part two, he continues to discuss his involvement in the Pacific Northwest aviation scene during the 1950s and beyond. Topics discussed include his aircraft restoration work; his experiences with homebuilt aircraft and the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA); his memories of other aviation enthusiasts and notable events and locations; and his work with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF) and its successor, The Museum of Flight.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation -- Aircraft restoration work, part one -- Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum -- Aircraft restoration work, part two -- The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1 -- Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories -- Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days -- Stories about local airports -- Closing thoughts
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/9f45d26ee34563ee82ee8cf3a09eb108.mp4
8cd0fe9be1a975b500e29656395a3a58
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/754a8ab017fad2416c546fd4358439d7.pdf
b3502b4f209c3a0dc7abc66995450375
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Paul L. Weaver (Part 1 of 2)
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: March 11, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as
an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part one, he describes his military service with the U.S. Navy;
his career with the Boeing Company during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s; and his involvement in
the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He also shares stories about other aviation enthusiasts and
the early days of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight. Topics discussed include his World War II service aboard
the USS Lexington (CV-16); his flight demonstration and mechanic work at Boeing; and his
experiences maintaining, restoring, and building aircraft.
Biography:
Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the
Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and
Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at
Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.
Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after
transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois).
Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman
and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and
Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the
end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).
After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as
an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company.
Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft,
including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.
Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects
of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in
seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He
also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight.
As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�3
Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16) ......................................... 7
Early interest and experiences with aircraft .................................................................................. 10
Family background ....................................................................................................................... 14
Navy experiences, part one ........................................................................................................... 15
Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes............................... 17
Navy experiences, part two ........................................................................................................... 22
Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic .................................................... 25
Seaplane operations, part one ....................................................................................................... 28
Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts ............................................................ 30
Organizing a fly-in fundraiser ....................................................................................................... 33
Aircraft restoration work............................................................................................................... 35
Navy experiences, part three ......................................................................................................... 37
Story about Eddie Rickenbacker ................................................................................................... 41
Aircraft restoration and maintenance ............................................................................................ 41
Discussion of Boeing career, part one .......................................................................................... 50
Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa ................................................................................. 52
Flying boom program ................................................................................................................... 55
Discussion of Boeing career, part two .......................................................................................... 59
Seaplane operations, part two ....................................................................................................... 60
Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft .................................. 62
Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight ................................................................ 68
Closing thoughts ........................................................................................................................... 70
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�5
Paul L. Weaver (Part 1 of 2)
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
STEVE LITTLE:
Greetings. My name is Steve Little, and we’re here at The Museum of
Flight in Washington, and it’s March 11th, 2019. We are here to interview Mr. Paul
Weaver. Paul is one of the original members of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical
Foundation, the predecessor to The Museum of Flight, and remains a volunteer to this
day, some 50 years later. He has had a wonderfully varied life, ranging in service in the
USS Lexington in World War II, CV-16, a long career with Boeing, restoring light
airplanes as an aircraft A&P, and a homebuilder of airplanes and, from what I remember,
maybe even a Fly Baby.
PAUL WEAVER:
Well, it was a—I’ve had a—what—a Volksplane. I helped old Pete
Bowers, I helped him on all of his airplanes.
SL:
Oh, okay. Very cool. I remember the Volksplanes.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Well, I really want to say thanks. We really appreciate your coming in and spending a
little time talking with us.
PW:
Thank you.
SL:
Great honor, great honor. No doubt. Let’s start a little bit about some background
information. I’d like you to state your full name, how you prefer it pronounced, and then
spell it for us.
PW:
My full name is Paul L. Weaver. And do you want—spell it?
SL:
If you would please.
PW:
Okay. P-A-U-L, then the middle initial’s L, and then the last is W-E-A-V-E-R.
SL:
Great, thank you. That gives us a tracking spot, so we know it’s correct.
PW:
I see.
SL:
When and where were you born?
PW:
I was born in a little town in Ohio that was made—makes ceramics.
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SL:
Interesting.
PW:
And I had quite a history in ceramics with—my great-grandfather was—his brother—not
great. Grandfather. His brother was—manufactured and developed Roseville Pottery,
which is still a collectible today after all of these years. And I used to throw against the
wall and break, but—throwing rocks at whatever. It was worth probably 50 bucks today.
[laughter]
SL:
Probably more than that. So was that the name of the town then, too, was Roseville?
PW:
The town was Roseville, Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, that’s just south of Zanesville about, oh, I’d say roughly 10 miles, probably less.
SL:
Okay. How long ago was that, if I may ask?
PW:
Oh, my God.
SL:
When were you born?
PW:
Is that my—oh, when was I born? Oh, now, that’s a hard question. It’s been so long ago,
I almost forgot. [laughter] No, I was born in 1922. And if you figure that up, you’ll see
I’ll be 97 years old.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That’s fabulous.
PW:
I usually tell everybody, though, I’m only 79.
SL:
[laughs] You started counting backwards a few years ago?
PW:
Well, I just turned my numbers around.
SL:
There you go. There you go. So did you grow up there then?
PW:
Oh yeah. That’s—yeah, I worked up—I was set up to be in the pottery business. I
eventually did but—started out with—I went—was going to go after—I was going to go
to Ohio State to be a ceramic engineer. That’s what—
SL:
Oh, interesting.
PW:
And then we came into a big squabble, you know, the World War II. That kind of
changed the plans, and so I was—in the meantime, prior to that, for a sideline I was into
radio. And how did that—get that into sequence here. But yeah, I was—in high school, I
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had shortwave radio and all this sort of stuff, and I used to communicate with Batista in
Cuba, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Really?
00:04:16
[Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16)]
PW:
[laughs] And that’s long before all this happened. But after radio—oh yeah, while I was
in radio, the Merchant Marine Academy in Boston, Gallop Island, they had a Marine
college there for officers, and they had me down for a radio operator on one of the
Merchant ships.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And about that same time, the casualty rate was pretty high for Merchant ships off the
coast, and although we weren’t really in the war yet, so to speak, but they still were
sinking. So I gave that idea up, although I was still there. I left. So I called the
Commandant of the Ninth Naval District and told him the situation going on now, that I
was waiting for the—my appointment at the college and that—so perhaps they’d like to
have me come into the Navy, because I had to be in reserve status in order to even start
going to college there.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so I—now, let me see. Yeah, so I joined the Naval Reserve, and pretty soon the
Commandant sent me in the mail some tickets for food, some tickets for transportation,
and then told me to report to the Ninth Naval District in Great Lakes, Illinois, and that
they—Navy wanted me for a radioman.
SL:
Okay. This—what—would this had to have been—you would have been about 18, 20
years old?
PW:
This is right after college. I mean, right after high school.
SL:
Right after high school.
PW:
No, wait a minute. Excuse me.
SL:
So about 19—
PW:
It was slight—about 1940 time.
SL:
’40? Yeah.
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PW:
1940 times. Uh-huh [affirmative]. But anyway, I was—but my training at Great Lakes
and all that, and I was put into an outgoing unit. OGU, they called it. And there, the
people were waiting for assignments. Meantime, I had became familiar with a lot—some
of the guys talking to them, and they were destined to go on an aircraft carrier. And I
said, “Well, that sounds interesting.” But I talked more and more with them and—
although I was supposed to be—I was a radioman and waiting for Chicago to accept me
there. And in the—then one day there was a manifest put up on the bulletin board for
people to go to this aircraft carrier. And then my buddy said I’d made—they were going
on. And so I went to the person that handled the manifest, and I told this guy, I says,
“You know, they forgot my name on that list.” And so I don’t think he knew too much
about his job in a way because—anyway, he put my name on the list. [laughs]
SL:
Just by telling him?
PW:
I just—because I had friends that were going on an aircraft carrier, and I knew as much
about airplanes, I think, as they did, you know. Just casual. And so anyway, it worked
out.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I got—I went aboard this aircraft carrier. It was a new one, just built, and it was in
Boston. And it’s called—was the US Lexington, USS Lexington. This was the number
two Lexington because the first one was sunk in the Coral Sea. And so the number two,
the one I was on was named another—had another name. But since that was on the—
good propaganda, you know, we’d just make this Lexington II and fool everybody. Well,
it did, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Well, I see your hat says “Blue Ghost.” Was that part of the fooling it?
PW:
Yeah, that’s why—we came to—the Blue Ghost because we were reported so many times
of being sunk and—or damaged beyond, and we showed up again all over the place. And
so that’s how they got—think old Tokyo Rose really had something to do with that.
SL:
Oh, okay. So she’s talking about you guys?
PW:
Oh yeah. She couldn’t keep track of us because we were sunk, but we were on the news
the next day. [laughs] But that’s the way it was then and because everybody was grabbing
at something to talk about. And so anyway, and then we told them that—then I got
assigned to the carrier. And when I was on the carrier, why, there was all kinds of talk
about schools and things for aircraft. And so every time I applied for them, they says, no,
I didn’t—they didn’t want me to go to school because I had as much knowledge about
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airplanes as they had already, the people who were there. So I never got a school. Mine
was all—mine was all I developed myself.
SL:
Well, let’s talk a little about that. How did you get—was that when you were in high
school or younger or—
PW:
No, no, no. This is when I got aboard—my Navy time. This is Navy time. No, I
graduated in school in—when was it? 1940—yeah, 1941. And—no, these—oh, anyway,
I’m trying to get it all in my head right now. It’s been a few years ago. [laughs]
SL:
It’s been a couple. But I was thinking, what does a radioman really do? And how do you
take that radioman and make yourself an airplane mechanic?
PW:
That is your—it’s all you. I mean, I’ll attempt anything.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, what were you supposed to be doing as a radioman? What
would that be?
PW:
Aboard the ship—aboard ship in the radio room and doing—communicating from the
ship to shore and all that, or between ship or whatever. Same way with the Merchant
Marine. That’s what it was. And they had a lot of associated duties, too. But I was the—
that was what radio was. But after this time and training and meeting these guys on an
aircraft carrier, that sounded a hell of a lot better—interesting to me than sitting in a room
punching the key, you know, [mimics Morse code and laughs].
SL:
Do you still remember Morse code?
PW:
A little bit. [mimics Morse code and laughs] CQ, CQ. And then—but I don’t know too
many. But I had a very good buddy that was part of this. His name was Dick [Callahan?].
Dick and I were good buddies and—but he went—got called to college before I did, see.
And that got me—we separated. And from that point on, I thought, well, we should be
close together again. I thought we would. Well, we—to get onto something, my friend
Dick, he stayed with the Maritime.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And eventually, after he got out of the Maritime, then he was assigned to one of our
offshore—or—what does everybody call that now, where they—embassies.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
So he went to an embassy and—after he left the ship. And that’s all right. I went to my
carrier. [laughs] No, I—
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00:12:48
[Early interest and experiences with aircraft]
SL:
Yeah. Tell us a little about the carrier, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. That was—I’m talking about carrier. I’m talking about aircraft. My first things I
would like to mention, the fact that I talked to my dad years ago when I—we first—one
day, we’d seen something in the air flying by. It was an aerial plane. [laughter] And so
that intrigued me, watch him go through the sky like that. So I talked to my dad about it,
and he said, “Oh, you better forget that because there’s no room for you in there because
the pilot was heavy enough. They would—it would never get off the ground.” And so he
kind of discouraged me from getting in the airline part of it—or airplane line. Not
discouraged, but just make a comment.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But I still—and then [unintelligible 00:13:44]—further on. Well, in the—right after high
school, then I got—before—well, I was still waiting for Maritime duty to get me—call
me up. But I went to Wright-Patterson Field, and I worked on the B-18s.
SL:
Oh, you did?
PW:
Bombers. Yeah. I was a radioman on B-18s.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And that—then that job required me to rig up antennas and balance them out and all that
good stuff. But it wasn’t working on the airplane, although I was radioman on the
airplane. Radio electrician, they called it.
SL:
Okay. So you’re doing more than just the radio wiring. You’re taking care of—
PW:
Yeah, I did—yeah. I was going to be the whole darn thing associated with—but I didn’t
want—at that time, we had a lot of military—at Patterson Field, we had a lot of military
action going on, training and—because we were hurting for pilots and everything. And I
was hoping to get that—into that line. But I just never was able to swing it.
SL:
Had you flown before?
PW:
Oh, way, way back when—first flew in an old Piper plane. And where in the world was
that now?
SL:
Was that back at high school at that time?
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PW:
Well, no, just right out of the high school. I had a lot of things all bunched together, a lot
of things.
SL:
You really did.
PW:
Because I was searching for what I wanted to do for my life, you know. And I worked at
a place that made stringers for buildings, rafters at—up in Canton, Ohio. And in Canton,
Ohio, they had a little airport right there in town, so I used to go over there and take a ride
down then with them to kind of rekindle or keep that it my mind, the flying part.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And—oh, God. And then after—well, anyway, I’m getting back on track a little bit here.
SL:
Oh, this is fine.
PW:
It is. All right, fine.
SL:
This is very interesting.
PW:
You have to cut and edit this down.
SL:
No, this is—because I’m thinking the early flight experience, I’d like to hear a little more
about that.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, it wasn’t—well, the early flight experience is—the airplanes were flying
there. I think probably mail planes at that time, because this was just the beginning of
flight. Oh, if you want to back up just a little bit, while I was a junior—was it junior in
high school—I was selected to go to this school for government—of the state government
to—called boys’ something. I forget the name of it. But I’ll tell you about how the
operation [unintelligible 00:16:50] goes.
SL:
Yeah, I remember those.
PW:
Do you remember? Okay. Well, anyway, I was there and since I was—they all had me
down as a radioman all the time, so they put me with the radio department of the State
Patrol. And so then Governor John Bricker—and I knew a guy that knew him
[unintelligible 00:17:14] here with me now.
SL:
Oh, very cool.
PW:
Yeah, he knew John. But anyway, John appointed me—he put me—he made me an
honorary lieutenant in the Ohio State Patrol. I was still in high school. [laughter]
SL:
That’s wonderful.
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PW:
Yeah, it is. And so there again, I met another guy while I was there about the aviation
part of Ohio [unintelligible 00:17:46] that was going to get airplanes or something, the
National Guard. They had some old biplanes there they called the Air—the National
Guard. And old sticks and fabric and—
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah, that was all new then. Or that was the only thing. And so the office I was at was on
the airport at Columbus, Ohio, and that’s where they kept the airplanes, and I kept an eye
on them while I was over here doing this. [laughter] And I kept—and watched it going
on, and I thought, “That’s very interesting.” And that’s why in the background I kind of
fudged a little bit at my experience in aircraft, because I knew I wanted to go that way.
SL:
You bet. You had to push it somehow.
PW:
Yeah. And so anyway, that is—I’m trying to get an alignment here in my thoughts. But I
was with the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman, and that’s before—just while I was still in
high school—senior.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so aircraft has always been in my mind, even though my dad told me I’d never be
flying because I’d be too heavy. Because the pilot would be heavy enough, they
wouldn’t—I wouldn’t—
SL:
Well, in some of those early planes? Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. And he had it in his head that there was just room for a pilot.
SL:
Do you remember what the first plane was that you flew?
PW:
Well, probably an old Piper up at Canton, Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah. But I went—rode only as a passenger. I didn’t fly it. I was just getting familiar
with the aviation.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Sure.
PW:
But I enjoyed it. So like I say, let’s go back to where I went aboard the ship. And when
the officer in charge of the manifest, he put my name down there on—with the other guys
that I knew.
SL:
Right.
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PW:
And so they were all going on the carrier Lexington. And so off they went to Lexington,
and here I went right along with them. [laughter]
SL:
I’d love to know what happened on the other side of that where you were supposed to go.
PW:
Well, I don’t really want to know. But I often said to myself, “I wonder when—that
position that the Navy wanted me in, whatever happened when they called my name and I
wasn’t nowhere around?”
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But things were hectic at that time. The war effort or thing going on. And so they just had
billets to fill, and I happened to be a guy to fill a billet. And so as long as I could—knew
what I was going to do, wanted to do what I was going—want you to do, that was all
really required. As far as any formal training of any kind, I didn’t have anything, oh,
except stringing wires, antennas, and installing radio gear in B-18s.
SL:
You must have a marvelous mechanical aptitude then.
PW:
Yeah, you know, I did. I think I even surprised myself. [laughs] No, no, I had
confidence—have confidence in what you want to do. That’s the big thing, you know.
SL:
Was there someone at some point that was sort of a mentor to you to give you this level
of confidence?
PW:
No. Well, the—might—I can’t put it down, except I had a doctor that bought an airplane
in my—in an adjoining town, and so every time he’d go—they’d go out to go flying,
he’d—I think he was probably learning to fly it. But every time I’d hear that engine
running—it’s a small town, Roseville, and I could hear it. And I’d go over there however
I could. And occasionally I’d be allowed to wipe oil off the fuselage, and that was—I was
getting close to aviation.
SL:
Getting close. And it sounds like, even though your dad may have said—but he didn’t
discourage it?
PW:
No, it wasn’t—he didn’t really—he just gave me some negative thoughts, which I didn’t
accept.
SL:
Good. I’d say your method worked out pretty well.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, they—like I say, I was at Wright-Patterson—well, Patterson Field.
And, oh, one thing of humor there, but I was there when they landed the B-18. And—or,
no, not—yeah, with the B-18. It was a big, new bomber. And they taxied off the main
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runway and went all through the—broke up all the blacktop on the taxiways. [laughter]
But—no, not the 18—B-19s. Excuse me.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
B-19 was the newest one. I was working on the B-18s. But anyway, I got along. I’m a
person that if I want to do something I’ll make it happen.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It sounds like very much so, yes.
PW:
Because you have to be self-taught, lots of things you do, no matter what you do. But I
never did get to be my ceramic engineer. [laughter] But I don’t regret that at all because
the ceramic industry has now gone by the wayside almost, because there’s plastics and all
that and so many things made out of plastic.
00:24:05
[Family background]
SL:
If I may ask, what were your mom and dad’s names and what did they do?
PW:
Oh, my dad was named George Zane Weaver.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah. And my mother’s name was Hazel Jane Weaver.
SL:
Pretty name, pretty name. Yeah.
PW:
But that was in a little, small town. I think it was—if the dogs were all home, we would
probably at least have two thousand people. [laughter]
SL:
So did your dad work in the pottery business? Ceramics?
PW:
Oh, he was—his work—the family for generations were in ceramics.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And that was—my cousins and all that and uncles. They were all in the ceramic business.
SL:
Did you have brothers and sisters?
PW:
Yes. I ended up with two brothers and a sister, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Did they stay there and—
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PW:
Well, they all stayed around there pretty much. My sister married a person who was in
the ceramics—didn’t—wasn’t in it—he worked in ceramics.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And my brothers, they worked in ceramics.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But let’s see. Basically, that was it. That was their livelihood, is ceramics. Yeah.
SL:
So you were the one that went on and did something completely different?
PW:
Yeah, altogether different. Altogether different. I mean, I was intrigued by flying
airplanes and stuff, and I really wanted to be a pilot down deep. I really did. I think I
could have. But somehow or other, it just never—they’d rather have me take care of
them, get them so they’re back in the air again. [laughs]
SL:
Well, that’s pretty darn important.
PW:
Yes, it is.
SL:
It really is.
00:25:57
[Navy experiences, part one]
PW:
Yeah. But then after what I’m talking about, then I went aboard the Lexington.
SL:
Right. Let’s talk about that a little.
PW:
And then there in the Lexington, when the classes come up for different schools, I was—
I’m not bragging, but they always said, “Well, you know more than what they’ll teach
you there and we need you here on the carrier.”
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So you were given the opportunity to do everything—
PW:
Yeah, that was—no, I never was given the class—school.
SL:
But you didn’t need it. They—you knew it.
PW:
No. And as a matter of fact, I pride the fact that they assigned me to the skipper of the
scouting squadron as his plane captain.
SL:
Oh, fascinating.
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PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
So the—
SL:
So as a plane captain, what kind of plane and what does that entail?
PW:
You take care of all of the problems that developed on the plane, whether—what it was,
you know. And you make—eyeball it all—every day. We used to say, “Mark Eights.”
[points to eyes and laughs] No, you maintained and had the airplane up and running as—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Whether it’s—Oh yeah, whether—whatever problems it has. Like one time, I got to—
they found metallurgy or something, that the keepers for the valve stems that goes up to
the cylinders, they were breaking and the engine would swallow a valve every once in a
while. So they had to get a whole new set of keepers, which was two.
SL:
On each side of the valve stem?
PW:
Yeah, on—and so one of my first big jobs is replacing all the keepers in the valve stems
and making sure that you don’t drop a valve into the cylinder. And you don’t take a
cylinder off [unintelligible 00:28:17]. You do it right on the plane.
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
Yeah, and you had to be thorough and cautious of what you’re going to do. So I did a lot
of that to help things go along.
SL:
Were there other people on the crew with you that were working on that airplane? Did
you have—
PW:
Oh, no. Well, only if something major comes along.
SL:
Okay. Otherwise, you’re it?
PW:
Oh yeah. He relies on me to do—make sure his airplane was in good shape.
SL:
That’s a tremendous responsibility.
PW:
Oh, it is. It was—especially since I was a radioman. [laughter]
SL:
You exceeded radioman a long time ago.
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PW:
But I always enjoyed whatever I was assigned. And, yeah. But anyway, that’s—then all
through the war and all that, and then after the war, after we got torpedoed—
SL:
Well, yeah. Let’s talk a little about that. That sounds pretty scary.
PW:
Well, you can’t do nothing about it. [laughs] No, if it’s not fixable, you can’t—
SL:
I take it you’re not a worrier.
PW:
No. No, I don’t, because there a reason something happens. And you don’t—that’s been
my life with the company I work—retired from. I gave—I got fantastic assignments, and
one of them I’m real proud of today. I’m going to step ahead here a little bit.
SL:
That’s fine.
00:29:55
[Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes]
PW:
The Dash-80, you know, [unintelligible 00:29:58], I flew that plane.
SL:
You did?
PW:
Yeah, I did, because Lew Wallick [S. L. “Lew” Wallick], who’s got a plane sitting down
on the floor now, Lew knew me and I knew him and he knew what I flew. So we headed
down to Los Angeles, demonstrating—selling the airplanes, 707s. See, this was in the
early days. And so the other pilot was out, and so [unintelligible 00:30:30] and Lew
Wallick for the crew. And so Lew asked [Hart?], he says, “Did you clear a flight plan for
us?” Well, it seems as though [Hart?] was too busy or something happened that we took
off ahead of time. So Lew told [Hart?], “Go file the flight plan.” So he—and says, “Paul,
come up here and take us home.” [laughs] It was like flying a Piper Cub.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
You know, it’s very, very easy to fly, you know.
SL:
Really?
PW:
And so anyway—and then I flew along. I even received the orders from Center telling me
altitudes and directions and all that stuff. And so after a few of them, Lew reached over
and pulled the armrest—his armrest up, turned around, and he says, “Perfect. Take us
home.” So I did. But when we come to Portland—then at Portland, he’d said to me, he
says something about—he says, “I don’t think the company would like you to land this
airplane.” [laughter]
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SL:
Probably not.
PW:
I’d never landed anything [unintelligible 00:31:41] in my life. But I could—I would’ve. I
would’ve because I knew what I was supposed to do.
SL:
So were you a salesman at that time for the Boeing Company?
PW:
I was what they call a—I was traveling around taking orders for the airplanes. No, I
wasn’t in sales. I was on the airplane. Flight demonstration, you might call it.
SL:
Ah, okay, okay.
PW:
And so that’s what—and—
SL:
So who are you demonstrating it to in Los Angeles?
PW:
Well, everybody. Howard Hughes.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I was his guest for over two weeks.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. And, oh, Howard, he treated us pretty good. He took me to the movie studio. And
there was a few of us, and he took us to the movie studio where he was filming. But I
needed a break, so I went into the coffee room. He says, “Go in there and have a cup of
coffee,” in the—where the actors and actresses sat. And so I went in and the chairs were
all filled—or the stools were all filled. And I stood behind a lady, and so she turned
around to me and says, “I’ll be through here in a minute. You can have my seat.” And
that was Eve Arden. [laughs]
SL:
Oh yeah. Our Miss Brooks.
PW:
Our Miss—so Eve got up and let me have her seat.
SL:
Oh, that’s cool. Wow.
PW:
Oh, it was fun. But anyway. Oh yeah, I remember—and these trips were fun things.
We’re getting away a little, but like Jerry Brown, you know. I mean, the old man and
Humphrey and all of them guys.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
We all swam together in the same pool and all this sort of—
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SL:
Was this at Howard Hughes’s—
PW:
This is—yeah, with Howard. [laughs] A guest of Howard Hughes.
SL:
That’s impressive.
PW:
Well, to me it was—I never thought it would happen, you know. But it was things in my
life, you know. Things in my life. And I could still see them and do them today like I did
then, really [unintelligible 00:34:04].
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And details and all. Like the Tar Pits that are on Los Angeles, you know. That was one of
the things. He had his chauffeurs take us to the Tar Pits. Boeing—as it was Boeing then,
you know. And so we landed there, and we taxied out to our—the plane—and there
was—the Boeings had their cars all for us and everything, you know. And so he wouldn’t
even let us get our car. He says, “I’ll have chauffeurs take you where you want to go.”
And he put us at the—uptown at Wilshire. He put us in a plush hotel. And so we didn’t
even see where Boeing had already assigned—and he says, “No, I’ll do it.” He says, “I’ll
call—I’ll make the calls.”
SL:
Wow.
PW:
So he put us in this big hotel, and everything was so—I’m not used to a life like this. And
there again, we met people in the music [unintelligible 00:35:29] industry—you know,
movies. And Phil Harris was a guitar player, you know. He’d seen what we—we had a
Howard Hughes account going on. So he come joined us, and so he—[laughter]. Now,
I’m talking just maybe three or four guys in all of this going on, you know. And it was
like a vacation you wouldn’t think you’d ever see.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
But you didn’t—you don’t take your billfold out of your pocket at all. Anything you
want, you just sign your name on it and put down 20% tip.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
Yeah, at that time, you—that’s—
SL:
That’s huge.
PW:
So because of this, all the people in the kitchen, waitress and all, knew we were going to
tip good, so they’d just bend over. You wanted a haircut. You’d go get a haircut. Just sign
your name and Howard took care of the bill. Boeing didn’t have to—so we were on a per
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diem-type thing with Boeing, and so the Boeing people rebelled a little bit about that
because we were being paid by Howard Hughes. We did not—and so they wanted to take
our per diem away from us because Howard was picking up—and so we got a little
rebelling going on like that. And we finally got our per diem, too, because we were
working for Boeing.
SL:
That’s right.
PW:
And so it didn’t hurt them any. They made it in sales of their airplanes anyway. But the
idea that Howard took care of everything. One time after one of the flights—Howard
always liked to eat peanuts, Planters Peanuts in a can. And so one time, he and his
crony—I forgot his name now. I’m sorry about that. But I dropped his name. But they
were conversing near the—where instrumentation and everything, and they had a can of
peanuts and they were both eating peanuts. He handed me the can of peanuts when he got
his, and he says, “Here, you finish them.” So, “Here, you finish them.” And I was the
only one in there, so he must have thought I was Mister Big Shot. [laughter]
SL:
You played the part very well, I’d say.
PW:
No, no, he was a very nice man. I have never—I hear all the stories, and I just can’t
believe it. I cannot believe that.
SL:
Because that’s not what he was like at the time. He was—
PW:
No. He was a very down-to-earth person and he conversed. Even some of his girlfriends
he brought on the airplane, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah, yeah. So he was—or you were selling him, so he was learning to fly the
airplane or—
PW:
Yeah. Oh, yes.
SL:
He flew it?
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah, he had—sometimes he had a little trouble. He would land and blow a tire
or two and—
SL:
[laughs] That’s a little trouble.
PW:
Yeah. And then one time he was up and he had the flaps down, and somehow or the
other, his excessive speed, he damaged the fore flaps on a couple of the flaps. So we had
to borrow his equipment in there in the shop. He had the—oh, TWA.
SL:
Right. Okay.
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PW:
Yeah. And so we had the full use of their TWA shops. And then we had to repair these
because—and they’re metal. Got the metal, and everything worked fine. We put it back
together, and it kept the airplane flying.
SL:
That’s impressive. [laughs]
PW:
No, it’s—do what you have to do to get the job done. And so we made him happy, kept
him out of the limelight too much about it, and so—but he—the airplane’s a little bit too
big and a little bit too fast at that time for him. I mean, he could handle fighters and all
that, but here he’s got more mass to handle, more things to do. And I could understand
that fully because I know aircraft flight. I’m a commercial pilot myself.
SL:
Oh, okay. Well, that’s interesting. Very cool.
PW:
Yeah. Because I wanted to be a commercial pilot.
SL:
So you finally got to fly?
PW:
I finally got it. I finally got it. And [unintelligible 00:40:43], more about me. But I was
going to go with the airlines. United Airlines, when they were downtown in Seattle, they
hired me to go to Denver and fly cargo planes from Denver to Chicago.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And this was after all this other stuff going on. But anyway, I came time to go, to get on a
plane to go to Denver for their introduction—or to be in the company, and I changed my
mind. I said, “No, I think I’m better off at Boeing.”
SL:
So they were trying to hire you away from Boeing?
PW:
They weren’t hiring—I was—my choice.
SL:
You were looking, yeah. Just to see.
PW:
Yeah, so that I could get another plateau of what I—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so I says, “No, no. Boeing treats me well, and I’m going to stay with them.” And so
therefore, that ended my air cargo business. Although I didn’t really want a truck driver’s
job anyway. [laughter]
SL:
I hadn’t heard it put that way before, but, yeah.
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PW:
Yeah, because all you do is land, they load you up with like a truck, and you fly away.
And then unload and load back up again. I says, “That’s a truck driver’s job.” I didn’t
want to be a truck driver.
SL:
Yeah. Could’ve done that a long time ago.
00:42:20
[Navy experiences, part two]
PW:
Oh, okay. I’m kind of getting things a little bit like this. But just me is what you want to
talk about.
SL:
Well, that’s exactly it. We want your experiences. And you were talking a little bit about
the Lexington and the war, so let’s transition maybe from the Lexington. How did you get
to Seattle and the Boeing Company and that whole time period in there?
PW:
Oh, okay. Let me go back to the Lexington thing.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
One time it was up around—and during the war now—we’d help and support all of the
islands out there and the invasions and getting it back. And we get into Kwajalein Island.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And one of them ornery guys put a torpedo in it. He shot us with a torpedo, and so we
had to go back into Honolulu to see—you know, reassess the damage and whatever. And
we found out we were—had too much damage for them to handle there in their dry
docks. And so the conclusion was, “You’re going to go have to Bremerton to get this
work done,” because it’s so big, you know.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
So anyway, this is—so we came to Bremerton, and we stayed there at Bremerton for
some time. And I didn’t have to go because I was what you might call an Airedale. I was
in the aviation. And that’s all—that’s regular black shoe or regular Navy for the work
they wanted. And so they sent me off to—over here to—oh, what is it called?
SL:
Oh, Sand Point? Sand Point Naval Air Station?
PW:
Oh, excuse me. Yeah, I was searching for the name. But that’s right, Sand Point. And so
they transferred me, and they sent the—the planes were all taken into California and—the
pilots to continue. And the crew I was with, we went into Sand Point. And while they’re
doing all this work repairing the airplanes, the—
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SL:
Yeah, the carrier. Yeah.
PW:
Carrier. Uh-huh [affirmative]. And let’s see. Boy, I’m unraveling a lot of stuff here.
[laughter]
SL:
Take your time.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, it—after there—I went to Sand Point, and then at Sand Point the
aircraft carriers were repaired and they were ready to go back out again. Somehow or
other, somebody made an arrangement for me not to be on that carrier. So they kept me at
Sand Point.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
But that’s all right because—so from Sand Point, they organized some places they called
“casual groups” and—supporting aircraft squadrons. And not being a member of that
squadron, but you were—you had to take care of them, like you had to mother—be
mother to them. So the first thing I did, they sent me to, of all places, Quillayute. You
remember Quillayute up here?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
Okay. That used—they used to have that as an Army base, I think.
SL:
I never knew that.
PW:
Yeah, and—but an aircraft group. And I’m not sure of that, but they tell me that it was
Army. But anyway, Navy—Sand Point took it over, and they called it a “casual unit.”
And let’s see, what’s the number of that cas—well, I was out of Division 7, Casual 7.
And so we supported Quillayute.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so it was a small group of us, and we had—a little humor along with it. We had one
ruling, though, [unintelligible 00:46:40] trainees. They were all flying the F4Fs—or FMs,
at that time. And so they—one ruling was that you do not put ammunition in them
airplanes up there. You had to go down to Port Angeles and land, and then you put the
ammunition in. And then you had to come back to Port Angeles and—to take the
ammunition out before they come back to Quillayute, because they didn’t trust those
pilots. [laughs]
SL:
Really? [laughs]
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PW:
That was the word we had. They’re just learning. So when they had gunnery going on,
you just—you flew down to Sand Point, but the ammunition—then you did your gunnery
practice.
SL:
So gunnery practice was out over the Sound or something like that?
PW:
Yeah. Out in the ocean, yeah.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But some of the islands or little rocks they have out there. I wasn’t involved with that,
but—although we had a lot of tow targets, too. You’re towing the target, too.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But anyway, they—I’m getting back to lying again here. Anyway, the thing was out
there, we weren’t allowed to have any live ammunition in the guns at all to come back
into Quillayute.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. A populated area. I—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. So then after we got through with these training squadrons, they called me back to
Sand Point again, and then I was there for a while. And then pretty soon, they said they
wanted me over at Pasco, but that was a [unintelligible 00:48:28]. So off I went to Pasco.
[laughs] And so at Pasco—I don’t know whether my fun stuff should be included in this
or not, but—
SL:
Sure.
PW:
But I had the fortune of conning some of the top pilots to take me out in some of the Cubs
we had there for emergency out in the desert. And they always went along. They liked to
have a—shouldn’t be saying this, but they had—they would go to recreation and they’d
get a shotgun, and we’d go out and we’d—and they’d want to chase coyotes.
SL:
Sure. That was common.
PW:
Yeah. And so therefore—and therefore I got some more flying time.
SL:
So you get to fly while they’re—
PW:
So I get to fly and they get to shoot.
SL:
Yeah, they’ve got the door.
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PW:
They get to shoot coyotes. [laughter] And then I got to the point—the AT-6 was a bigger
airplane and everything. One day they put me under the hood, the hood that’s in the back
rear seat, and you fly on the instruments.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so this one pilot, he says, “Sorry.” He says, “Let me—let’s do a little roll.” And I
said, “Well, okay.” So I went into a roll. I turned the airplane up on its back like—with
my belly up, and all of a sudden the engine went [makes sounds effect]. And it stopped.
And I said, “You better take this thing over.” He laughed at me. And he—“Oh,” he says,
“that does that all the time.” Because the carburetor doesn’t have no—get no fuel in it
when it’s upside down. So this was just another little thing that happened. So that’s one
of the incidents that I remember about that. Oh, these are all memories I’m playing with
here now, you guys.
SL:
This is fun. I’m really enjoying listening to this.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, I figured mine was—I always made life enjoyable. I always made—even
down here today, I enjoy getting these young men—kids, you know, and just to get their
attention and talk to them a little bit, you know. But anyway, they—after Moses Lake,
then—I think then the war ended in Europe. And then I got called back to Sand Point
because they didn’t need me anymore for any more training. And that’s where I was
when the Japanese surrendered.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
So I said, “Well, playday’s over.” But I gave you some Dash 80 stuff there, which came
after all what I’m talking about now.
SL:
Right. Yeah, that was kind of how you got here.
00:51:59
[Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic]
PW:
Yeah, and then I got here. But I got so many things that I’ve been so thankful for, but—at
Boeing here—
SL:
So you went from—Sand Point is where you ended up applying for the Boeing
Company?
PW:
Yeah. After I left Sand Point, then I went to Oregon to continue education again.
Because, see, all my—I’ve been self-taught all this time.
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SL:
Right.
PW:
And so I had a little bit of the GI Bill, and I was going to go to college down in Corvallis
and everything. And then that’s where I left and came back up to Seattle from Corvallis.
But I never did complete college because I didn’t really need it. So I did have enough
training that I got an A&P license, a government license, you know, and I got that while I
was in Corvallis.
SL:
Okay. So that’s where your—the A&P, that’s an airframe and powerplant—
PW:
That’s where that came into the picture.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Because—but that—at the time, that was a two-year course. We took—I was there for
one year, and the instructor called me aside, and he says, “You’re wasting your time,” to
me. He says, “How would you like to take a test—or examination?” And so I says, “Well,
you know me. And I know me. I don’t think I’ll have any problem.” Well, he says, “All
right. And then you—I’ll call the instructor—or examiner from out of Portland to come
down and you can take the test.” And I did, and he just signed me out right now. “You’re
an A&P.” You know what he said? “You’re wasting your time because you know
everything.” You have it in the Museum down here. You have here—what’s his name?
He’s out of Portland area, and he had a Great Lakes trainer. And anyway, I think the
Great Lakes trainer was logged in to a girlfriend. But anyway, he one day drove it
between two oak trees in—down in Willamette Valley somewhere. Out of the eight spars
on that thing, seven of them were broke.
SL:
Whoa.
PW:
And it didn’t have a tailwheel on it. It had just a metal skid to ride on. So that’s what I
did. I had to replace all the—not replace the spars. Had to repair the spars. You know, put
splices on them. And then I had to put a tailwheel on it, steerable tailwheel, which they
didn’t have on airplanes like that. And then it came to the fact that we needed to increase
the area of the elevator—or the—yeah, elevator and rudder, so we had—did all of that.
And then I had to go through all the sandbag testing and everything for the CEA, at that
time. So they bought it all. So the air—Johnny [White?] bought that airplane. And then
another thing about it, it had an old Cirrus engine in it. But with the Cirrus engine, you
had a bag full of rings, and those rings were to—were there either to put them in or take
them out to up—raise and lower the compression ratio.
SL:
Interesting. I’ve never heard that before.
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PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had to take all the hold-down bolts and lift them up, put the rings
under to raise and lower the—
SL:
I’ll be darned.
PW:
Well, see, Tex Rankin is who I’m trying to think of.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, he’s—got a write-up down there about him.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But old Tex drove it in between two oak trees and caused all that
trouble. But anyway, Johnny bought this somehow or other from Tex’s girlfriend or
something, and so we restored that. We spent a lot of time on that. But when he got
through with it, it was really good. Old Johnny, he’d fly it all over. A lot of people
wanted it because it belonged to Tex Rankin. He was noted for that airplane.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And I don’t know where that airplane is, whether—it probably doesn’t exist anymore.
SL:
Probably not.
PW:
No. But then more aircraft stuff going down the line. Then I used to buy airplanes. If
somebody can’t—didn’t know what to do or anything. I was licensed by this time now,
and so I’d buy it. They didn’t want—they wanted—thought that, oh, there’s too much
damage. “I’ll buy it from you.” So that’s what I did. I’d buy—do you remember Sam
Younker? Had an auto dealership here in Renton?
SL:
Yes.
PW:
Well, he had an old high-wing, and he had broke his spar in that, and it was going to be—
it was going to cost him a lot of money to get it fixed. So I—“Sam,” I says, “Sam, I’ll
buy that from you.” “All right.” He wanted to get rid of it.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
He didn’t know anything about it.
SL:
Wasn’t doing any good for him. Yeah
PW:
So I gave him $200 for that airplane. [laughter] He says—he [unintelligible 00:58:03] get
rid of it. “I’ll give you $200.” And so I took it home, and I spliced the spar and repaired it
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back together, and then I took it—to come back to Renton with it again, and it was flying
out here. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah. Were you doing that—that’s after the war but before you started Boeing?
PW:
Yeah, that’s after the war. Yeah, I’m past the wartime now, see.
SL:
And before you were with Boeing. So you were doing this—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Did you work for a company that way or was this—
PW:
No, no, no. I was learning—I was—no, I was teaching—learning—working myself.
SL:
Just do it yourself. Yeah.
00:58:37
[Seaplane operations, part one]
PW:
And, oh, I used to take seaplane operations on the Lake Union.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah. [Main?] Seaplane Service and all that. And let’s see. Lana Kurtzer, you
know, that—I used to—old [unintelligible 00:58:52] aircrafts he used to have them. I
didn’t work for him directly, Kurtzer, but I did work [Main?]—for [Main] Seaplane
Service.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And God, that’s another thing. [laughs]
SL:
I love your stories. There’s always something.
PW:
Always, always something. I’m always a busy person.
SL:
Yeah. But still—
PW:
And I’m always a busy person. Anyway, I never had a seaplane or anything at this time.
But—so while I was with [Main]—and I think—what’s his name? He was in Port
Angeles, and he had his operation up there, a seaplane service. Townsend or something
like that maybe?
SL:
I don’t know.
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PW:
But anyway, one time—he always parked his plane there where [unintelligible 00:59:48]
here. So I decided I want to be a floatplane pilot. So I talked to him, and I says, “Check
me out.” He was licensed to teach, you know, to qualify me. And so that was good. And
so one day, he was there and he says, “You want that—you want a seaplane rating?” I
says, “Yeah.” He says, “Well, come on. Jump in.” So we [unintelligible 01:00:14].
Aeroncas that they had there on floats. And so we went in and the first thing—first thing,
we taxied out and everything went fine. I was in control all this time, and taxied out.
[unintelligible 01:00:32] head north again. Or west. But anyway, he says to me, he says,
“I want a one-float takeoff.” And I said, “You do?” “Yep, I want to see how well you
know your airplane.” So—
SL:
I’ve never heard of that.
PW:
So, “Okay.” I rocked up on the one float and took off, and he liked that pretty good. And
he went out, and I made a few turns over the floating bridge [unintelligible 01:01:05],
come back, and I was getting ready to land. He says, “I want to see if you’re still—if you
know how to put a one-float landing.” “Well, we’ll find out.” [laughter]
SL:
Give it a try.
PW:
And so I did. I did a one-float landing. Oh, that was just probably less than a half hour,
and I made a one—so that was my test for seaplane rating: one-float takeoff and one-float
landing.
SL:
[laughs] I’ve never heard of either one of those. That’s impressive.
PW:
Well, he just wanted to see if I knew how to handle an airplane.
SL:
Right.
PW:
And, oh yeah, I had to do a little turn for short-lake takeoffs, too, over in—what is it? Tell
me that name of that lake over there.
SL:
Oh, on the eastern side?
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Sammamish?
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yes.
PW:
And so that was what everything was on. And, oh, later on, I had one of the guys, the
chief check pilot for Alaska Airlines, he has a 180 on his floats. I shouldn’t get this way
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yet. But anyway, one day we was out flying around. “How long you been flying?” I said,
“A long time on floats.” So he went to Sammamish. He says, “Show me a landing.” And
so I did, and I greased one and [makes sound effect], it was—and so I did that. He says,
“Well, I don’t—[unintelligible 01:02:52]. How long you been since you’ve done seaplane
flying?” “I don’t remember. Twenty years maybe.” And he says, “Well…” He says,
“Nothing wrong with that.” So he just requalified me as a seaplane. [laughter] No, they’re
very easy—they’re easy to fly. If you just use your head about what you want to do, do it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. You’re a very logical thinker, obviously.
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
You know what you’re doing and what you want.
01:03:22
[Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts]
PW:
If you want to do it, you’ll do it. And—okay. Then all this time going on, I don’t—maybe
I should knock this off a little bit, but—
SL:
No.
PW:
But anyway, so I’ve been around with Pete Bowers, you know, and all of his homebuilts
and all of that. And old Pete always called me to come take care of his airplane for him,
you know.
SL:
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
PW:
Yeah. And so he—Pete and I were on first-name basis.
SL:
Did you work with him at the Boeing Company?
PW:
At where?
SL:
At Boeing? Did you work with him there?
PW:
No, I didn’t. No, he was in Mahogany Row area.
SL:
[laughs] I take it that’s executive office territory?
PW:
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, but he—and Harl Brackin was here. Harl, I knew him real well, too.
I got a story with Harl, but I’ll tell you about it later. But anyway, but Pete, I used to take
care of his Fly Babies and all that.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
And I got to tell you a little story about him right now, Pete Bowers. He was up to
Arlington, and he’d made a biplane out of a Fly Baby one day. And so I was sitting there,
and he says, “You want to sit in the center or what?” And, you know, Pete’s long-legged.
And anyway, that’s part of the story. And so I sat in there to check it out. He says, “Go
fly it.” “Pete, I just now got in it. I can’t even touch the rudder pedal.” [laughter] “Oh,
that’s all right.” So he took a helmet and [unintelligible 01:05:09] it over my head. He
says, “Go fly it.”
SL:
You don’t need the rudder pedals. [laughs]
PW:
Yeah. But it was—I had to go like this to reach it, you know. He’s a long-legged guy.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
One other time, Pete’s son—I don’t know where he is. I haven’t seen him for a long, long
time. But anyway, his son had his airplane, the Fly Baby, and landed in up at the
Snoqualmie Pass in the parking lot. He couldn’t get back in, you know, so he landed the
airplane on the parking lot at Snoqualmie Pass.
SL:
At Snoqualmie Pass.
PW:
So Pete came to me. “Oh,” he says, “I got to go get my airplane. That kid,” you know.
And I said, “Oh.” I took him to—there was a little emergency strip there right down
below Snoqualmie on the freeway. And anyway, so I took him up there so Pete could
retrieve his airplane. And so he got somebody there at the airport who hauled him up. So
he got the plane off before anybody really—
SL:
Even knew it was there.
PW:
Yeah. No, it was—nobody ever knew it happened. [laughter]
SL:
That’s great.
PW:
Maybe we shouldn’t talk about this kind of stuff.
SL:
No, no worries about that.
PW:
But my life has been full of stuff. I can’t even remember half of it. But anyway, Pete and
I used to—he had the one—the old Namu. You remember him talking about Namu? I
helped him on that. He wanted to make a Corsair out of it. [laughs]
SL:
Oh, did he really?
PW:
Oh yeah. Bent-wing.
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SL:
Yeah. We have lots of photos of it over here in these archives, so—
PW:
Have you? Yeah. I helped him with that. And there was always something going on. And
I was with Pete one time when we were—we went to Oshkosh together. And so you ever
hear of Dick VanGrunsven?
SL:
Yes, the RV Series.
PW:
Okay. Well, Dick, he lived in a tent with me. We was all back there to—Oshkosh
together. And this was when old Dick had just that one single-place airplane. And
anyway, it’s down sitting in the lobby at Oshkosh.
SL:
Oh, at Oshkosh. The RV-3.
PW:
Yeah. And so—but then some of the guys were there and we’re talking, you know. This
one guy was out there performing, so we egged old Dick and said, “Dick, what’s that guy
trying to do out there? Why don’t you go show him how?” So he went—you know, one
thing about Dick, he liked to put wheel pants on everything. And I kept thinking he’d get
mud in there and it would jam them up, but it didn’t. But anyway, we’d egged him on so
he would go out and chase this guy around on his tail all day. [laughter] And I don’t
know who it was now, but that was when he first started out with the RV-3, you know.
And then he—later on, he moved up and up and now, you know—
SL:
He’s got quite the factory now.
PW:
Yeah, he has got a factory. I haven’t been there since. Dick and I haven’t been together
for several years. He probably don’t even know me no more. He’s got a big factory man.
Who knows?
SL:
You’re pretty unforgettable. I’m sure he’d remember you. [laughs]
PW:
But anyway, he lived right—I was back there, and I had—let’s see. Yeah, I had a tent in
this station wagon. And I had another guy with me, too. So we pitched a tent out there at
a parking area by the airplanes. And some of the guys there would string a tarp over the
wing and then—and so that’s all they had at that time. And so it’s roughing it. And the
showers, oh, that’s a garden hose laying on the lawn—or on the grass, wherever the sun
would heat it up. That’s the hot water you’re going to get.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. But that’s all new now. It’s all so better.
SL:
Have you gone back to Oshkosh since then?
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PW:
About three or four years ago, I went.
SL:
Oh, recently. I’ve never been.
PW:
But not to see anything. But, I mean, just—I happened to be in Wisconsin, and I just—we
were trying to remember. And that’s where I said I’d seen the old RV-3 in the—right in
the lobby there, and I thought, “Oh, my God.” I said, “It’s got wheel pants and all.”
[laughs] But we had fun together. You know, we all talked the same language.
SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
And it was a lot of fun. And he knew Pete—him and Pete, they knew each other, too, real
good. And then I think—oh, we had some more people. There were two that we met.
Remember the—oh, what’s the name of this little car in here in the Museum?
SL:
Yeah, Molt Taylor.
PW:
Molt, yeah. Yeah, Molt had his plane back over there—Aerocar there. And he joined us
sometimes, you know.
SL:
That would have been really an interesting group.
PW:
Oh yeah, it is.
SL:
Fascinating.
PW:
And we were all for one thing and that’s to promote aviation.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
01:10:48
[Organizing a fly-in fundraiser]
PW:
And then in the meantime—well, let’s get back a little bit more and—where—fit in there
someplace. It seems as though—I’m piecing things together in my mind right now. Oh
yeah. Then one day, somebody said something to me about—I happened to see some
airplanes sitting in somebody’s front yard over at McMicken Heights. And I says, “Huh, I
wonder who that is—what they’re going to do with them.” But I found out it was
PNAHF. We didn’t have no place for anything. But this guy had—put these in his front
yard for storage.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
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PW:
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And yeah, so he had—this guy had—and then I—then I didn’t
know where they disappeared to, and we had a—I’m trying to figure out—I know we had
one airplane sitting up at the schoolyard in McMicken—White Center, is it?
SL:
Right. Okay, yep.
PW:
Yeah. And, oh, that’s another big story. I spent hours and hours on that. But anyway, we
still had this desire to have a museum. And then in the meantime, there’s all this going
on. We did everything we could to get it all together. And then somewhere in the long
line, then Harl started to get in there as part of it and—regarding the Museum, we were
raising money. We were getting money for this one here. And so I said, “Well, let’s have
a fly-in.” “What do you mean, fly-in?” Well, I says, “Well, Boeing’s got a big parking
lot. Let’s go—” That’s where these—was the 727 flight center. I says, “Let’s manage to
get that, borrow that for a while to have a fly-in.” And we did. Then somebody says on
up in the line, says, “Oh, no. It won’t work. It won’t work. Wrong time of the year and all
this.” I says, “Let me worry about that. We want a fly-in. We’ll have a fly-in.”
So I called my friends from Oregon that’s got—one that had a F-6 and another one had a
T-33 and another guy had another general aviation airplane. So I called them. “Oh yeah.”
But I says, “You’ll have to buy your own gas unless I can get some money for you.”
[laughter] So I didn’t want no—we wanted money for the—
SL:
Yeah, for this.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so I made them guys support themselves, but bring your
airplane up and show everybody. And you’d be surprised—and so in the meantime, we’d
accumulated some things here dedicated to the museum, and they sold them there at the
fly-in.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. And so then we worked—oh, we showed everybody. We had a crowd. Oh, I didn’t
realize it at that time that it was going to be so big, but here it was. So the guys, they flew
their airplanes for me and everything to make noise and—
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Get some attention.
PW:
And then Harl, he got somebody, managed to get some of the goodies out and sell them,
you know.
SL:
That’s very cool.
PW:
So when—so it wasn’t—as far as I know, it didn’t cost us anything for the space.
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SL:
For the space, yeah.
PW:
And so we had a fly-in, and people just came from all over. And I said, “You guys told
me it was impossible. I showed you. I did.” And so we had a—
SL:
That’s a great fundraiser, a fly-in fundraiser.
PW:
Yeah. And people dedicated for wanting to do something, you know.
01:15:17
[Aircraft restoration work]
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you work on—like on the Model 80 and restoring some of
that stuff?
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was when we had it down—way down at the old sea
hangar on Sand Point.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, I volunteered down there to work—oh, that rust is something else.
God. I told you the thing could be on and on and on. Did you bring your lunch?
SL:
[laughs] Oh, this is wonderful.
PW:
But anyway—no, [unintelligible 01:15:53]. And then the old FM-2 at the same time in
that area, the kids just beat it to death up at this—
SL:
It was in a park, wasn’t it?
PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up at—up in—it was a city—a state—a city park, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
And anyway, the kids had broke all the glass inside and on the instruments and threw
rocks and dented the fuselages all up. I bet you—I bet a 100 pounds of putty to fill up the
dents.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
You know, it did. But then I was a member of the Naval Reserve at the time, too, active
with that. And so I conned—not conned. I didn’t have to. But I had them—recruited them
to help me.
SL:
Sure. Talked them into it.
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PW:
And we tore that little FM all apart and tried to do things with it, make it presentable. I
got some good pictures. I should have brought them here. But even—I even had the old
Commandant of a Naval District here, the aviation part of it, even had him involved with
it. And I’ve got his picture in front of that old FM and [unintelligible 01:17:16] hangar in
Building 30 at Sand Point. And got a picture with him there shaking my hands and the
whole—[laughs].
SL:
Wow. You’ve got a history with this place.
PW:
Oh, I have. Well, from the very beginning, ever since I seen it in somebody’s front yard
sitting there getting rained on and all that stuff. I said, “No, we don’t want that to
happen.” And then, yeah. What’s another little fighter airplane we had here, the Navy?
SL:
The Corsair?
PW:
No, no, no. The other—it’s over on the other side of the road here. But anyway, we had
that one. It was—The Officer and a Gentleman [An Officer and a Gentleman], the movie.
SL:
Oh yeah. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Did you ever see that fighter plane they got there? That’s the one you got over in the
Museum.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
PW:
Yeah. But they wanted—the movie company wanted an airplane, because that was
supposed to have been a Naval Station.
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
And so, yeah, The Officer and a Gentleman. But anyway, through—not through me
personally, but through a connection, the agreement was, “Okay, you could use the
airplane for your show, but you have to repair—fix it up first.” And that’s how it got
fixed up there, and I think it’s still the same way today.
SL:
I didn’t know that.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh. [laughs] You dig it up and you’ll find out. But anyway, they
hauled that clear up there, and that’s where they made the movie The Officer and a
Gentleman. But that was your airplane that’s sitting in there over there right now. I told
the guy that the other day, something or other—kicking around. He didn’t know it either.
SL:
Well, these are fascinating histories, so that’s the thing I really enjoy.
PW:
It’s all—to me, I cherish every minute of it.
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SL:
That is so cool.
PW:
Because it’s creative. You know, bringing something back, something that people
shouldn’t forget.
SL:
Right. They shouldn’t forget it.
PW:
They shouldn’t forget it.
SL:
And you’re passing this on.
PW:
This takes a lot of work to do it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It does.
01:19:29
[Navy experiences, part three]
PW:
Oh, God. But then I was up at Sand Point, like I say. I was there during the war for part
of the time, too, then—when I wasn’t at Bremerton—I mean—yeah, Bremerton, or out in
the Pacific getting torpedoed. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, I’d rather not be the torpedoed guy. What was it like on the ship when it was
torpedoed? Was it—there a massive panic? Or what was that like?
PW:
Oh, there wasn’t a real big, loud explosion, so—but the ship just rumbled, you know,
around. You know, like you hit a cork in the water or something, you know, flopping
around. But anyway, during that torpedo—back to that story. That accident with that
torpedo in there, it froze the rudder at 27 degrees and it stayed there.
SL:
So you’re—
PW:
Yeah. And so we were out there in the middle of the ocean with submarines around and
everything, and the airplane—the carrier’s making circles.
SL:
Just going in circles.
PW:
And they—and so the crews down below had to jerry-rig something to get the rudder
back neutral to get us going again.
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
But, yeah. But that was a feeling that—I often think about that, that here we were—we’re
there damaged, going in circles, and we can’t do nothing about it.
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SL:
No.
PW:
There was no provisions to right it. But they incorporated something different after they
repaired it. There’s write-ups in the paper, in the magazine—not magazine, but history of
the Lexington, where the guys who’d lay on their belly and crawl around on there trying
to get the rudders straightened out.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Oh yeah, down in the—
SL:
Wow.
PW:
And yeah, we lost—let’s see. If I remember details—I know we only had one—there was
four fans back there.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
But we only had one useable. One, we lost one—propelled the whole thing—was gone,
and the other one—another one had the shaft bent on it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Wow.
PW:
And—well, the other—two others had bent. But anyway, with the seagoing tug we got—
we did manage to get back into Bremerton. In the meantime, associated with this, that we
have—like a lot of times, we have emergency rations here around the ship, you know.
And anyway, when this torpedo hit, it went into one of our food lockers. And so therefore
we was short on food.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But we had plenty of bologna left, you know. You don’t—[laughter]. So we—oh, we did
all right, but it was always a laughable thing. “Well, we’ll go home on bologna.”
[laughter]
SL:
You’ll make it, yeah.
PW:
So that’s how we worked our way back into Bremerton, by the stores that was stored up,
which was for flight crews, mainly for flight rations.
SL:
Sure. Did the Lexington have catapults on it?
PW:
Oh, yes.
SL:
Okay. I don’t know that much about the ship.
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PW:
When I was on the Yorktown, I got to use them—one of them one time.
SL:
Oh yeah?
PW:
Yeah. That’s another story.
SL:
Well, that’s okay. [laughs] Why were you on the Yorktown?
PW:
Oh, I was on the Yorktown during the Berlin Crisis, you know. Or the—when Cuba sent
missiles over.
SL:
Oh yeah, in ‘62.
PW:
Yeah. They recalled me.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. And so at that time, I was an ECM radarman.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I got back into wires again.
SL:
Yeah, the electronic countermeasures. I’m back on the radio.
PW:
And so I was qualified for—and a seaplane rating and an aircrew rating and the whole bit
on electronics there again and—but I had my share of flying, too. [laughter]
SL:
What were you flying in that time?
PW:
S2Fs, twin-engine, you know. Tracker. Oh yeah. Oh, I got stories about that, too. They
were always trying to play games with me. So one time this one pilot was over there. I
was over in the copilot’s side. And I’d seen his arm—and I knew the panel. And so he
was talking to me like that, and he kept flicking this switch. And that was on a rudder
assist thing. And, you know, it has two rudders that they split.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And anyway, he wanted—he tried to foul me. And I kept—I could feel it, and I kept
compensating for it. He says, “Don’t you feel that?” I says, “What? Feel what?”
[laughter] So after a while of that, then I says, “Oh yeah. I know you were trying to play
games with me.”
SL:
And doing a pretty good job.
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PW:
But I didn’t—I could fly the airplane just as good as they could, although they were
designated pilots.
SL:
Yeah. They were technically qualified, but you were just as good.
PW:
One other time—I could tell you something else that’s not really supposed to be notable,
is the fact that during this time of Berlin Crisis over there, the—the Cuban Crisis, I mean.
We landed. We have to go back into Whidbey to debrief. Well, it so happened at this
time, I was in the copilot’s side and the skipper of the group was in the pilot’s side, who I
knew real good, too. And so the guy was [unintelligible 01:26:04] on the copilot’s
[post?]. He went back on my side, the ECM, and sat there and was napping or something.
And so it was time to come back in. Well, we come back in and landed, and the skipper
looked over at me and he said, “Oh.” He says, “Forgot all about you.” [laughter] So he
said, “Hey, you guys, I’m going to turn your airplane [unintelligible 01:26:28] so the
controller—control tower don’t see us, and you guys change back to your seats you’re
supposed to be in.” [laughter] But I think I always thought that was good to have
somebody that, should something happen, that they could be—they could be bailed out,
you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, you’ve got backup.
PW:
Yeah, yeah.
SL:
Levels of—yeah—
PW:
I could land that plane. I could take it off. The whole bit. Matter of fact, this is another
story in a way. But at Sand Point, they have a compass rose, and every so often, you have
to go swing a compass to be sure. And that’s usually a pilot’s responsibility. I was no
pilot, but I had to do that a lot of times.
SL:
Because you’re taking the planes out.
PW:
Go to the compass rose and compensate for the compass. A lot of people had a lot of faith
in me, and I never let them down.
SL:
No, you never did. And so much of this self-taught early on.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. It’s want to do something. You can do anything you want, you know.
SL:
I love that attitude.
01:27:43
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[Story about Eddie Rickenbacker]
PW:
I didn’t tell you about old John Glenn yet, either.
SL:
Well, there’s another person you mentioned, too, when we—before we started, was Eddie
Rickenbacker.
PW:
Oh, Eddie. Oh yeah. Oh, Eddie—
SL:
Both of those would be—
PW:
He and I were on a demonstration flight for—we were selling Eastern Air Lines some
707s.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And so we were flying from Chicago coming back out to the coast. And so we landed—
and we had to land in Denver because of the bad weather. And so on the flight from
Chicago, Eddie had a nickel. It was kind of a new nickel, I think. But anyway, he put that
nickel on the tabletop and put it on edge, and we flew, and that nickel didn’t fall off
immediately. You know, it stayed up. But he says, “You can never do that with an old
prop plane.” [laughter]
But he was an Ohio boy just like I was. I mean, we weren’t on first-hand, you know,
buddy-buddy type thing, but just a coincidence and—but that’s my association with
Eddie. I always look in here where I walk in and I see these guys, old dirty, muddy boot
on top of that tire sitting there, you know. “Eddie, if you were here, I’d pound you.”
[laughter] That was in a World War I picture, you know.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s quite the picture.
01:29:25
[Aircraft restoration and maintenance]
PW:
But I’ll make a comment about that, that—“Eddie, you got your old, dirty foot on top of
that tire.” Oh, that’s another story in its way, you know. And it was interesting. But like I
said, to start all of this was the company, the Boeing Company. They had a lot of faith in
me. They asked me to do a lot of things, and I did it.
SL:
You did do a lot of things.
PW:
Like most all the airplanes, 737 on up to the 727, everything. I was in the proof loading a
lot of that, you know, putting them in and stretching them, bending, twisting, and all that
stuff.
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SL:
Okay. Did you work on the civilian side and the military side at Boeing? What other
planes did you work with?
PW:
No, not—on civilian. Civilian side. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, one time we had—one of the KC-97s out here. It was Boeing’s.
SL:
This one?
PW:
I forget the name. What’s the name—
SL:
Stratofortress.
PW:
Huh?
SL:
Or the Stratocruiser, I mean.
PW:
Yeah. Well, oh, that’s another story. [laughter] But anyway, we had one, and somebody
landed it, and they damaged the wing. And we managed to get it back over to Renton,
and there—we changed one wing over in Renton.
SL:
Geez.
PW:
Yeah. See, I feel honored that I was called on to help so much in doing a lot of things.
SL:
And unusual things, it sounds like.
PW:
Yeah, unusual things. You know, but even on the B-52, you—[makes sound effect]. I
saved a lot of money on that. We needed to. But then I was on the 747 program up at
Everett, too, you know. I got a call from them—I was down here at the time. They called
me to come up there to help them. They got ten airplanes sitting on the ramp, and they
can’t be moved. They’re just not ready to deliver yet. And the program was pretty bad.
And so I got a call to come up there, and I did. And one of my first jobs every morning
was to go into the planning room, which is in the middle of the flight line out there where
the plane—and my job was to review all the panels to make sure that everything was in
there—should be in the right position to save time and money.
And one time, I found out there was—they were going to take the flaps off this airplane.
“What’s all that about?” “Well, because they have to go to the factory and be—some
work on them in there, and then they bring them back and reinstall them on the airplane.”
And, to me, that cost money. And so I went out there to survey. “What are you talking
about?” [unintelligible 01:32:29] factory I’d find out what they were doing.
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“[unintelligible 01:32:33]. We could do that right on the line. We don’t have to take the
flaps off.” And they didn’t take any flaps off after that.
SL:
You did. So you saved a bunch of money on that.
PW:
Oh, I did, because you had to reprogram all that stuff, plus the—maybe the handling and
damage that was going on and—Oh yeah. So this one group in there that was in—that
was their job. “I’m sorry, fellas. You don’t have a job anymore.” [laughs]
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
I saved—and then the same way with the fuel. You’re calibrating for fuel in the plane and
all that. I had that, too. Like I say, the company, I feel honored that they had so much
trust in me to do these kind of things.
SL:
They had a lot of trust, but that’s because you earned it.
PW:
Well… But I enjoyed it. I wanted—I didn’t mind it at all. You can—if you use your head,
there’s nothing impossible, you know, if you use your head. It’s just like we started out
talking about our museum here. I put a lot of money here. That old three-engine
[unintelligible 01:33:53] sitting in there, I put a lot of time in on that thing and
volunteered. I never did see the completion of it, only in here and so—but up to this
point. And then the—like the little FM, I did everything I could to get that FM
presentable. But I heard—somebody told me that eventually—there was somebody over
in—oh, excuse me. What’s the name of that—over in the border? Spokane. Yeah, that
there was some kind of arrangement where they would—
SL:
Where they finished it up or something over there?
PW:
Well, they were going to do something, but I’ve never seen it since. They’re trying to tell
me that one in there was it, and I said, “No, that is not the one.”
SL:
I thought it was.
PW:
No, it isn’t.
SL:
Really?
PW:
No, it isn’t. I know. Because I was involved with it from the very beginning when they
put it on the playfield up at White Center.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I’ve said—and then all the kids wrecked [unintelligible 01:35:10] it down, and I had
it all torn apart with my friends and puttied up everything.
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SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
And so I—no, then they can’t sell me that that’s the same airplane. No. And to—partially
it looks like it because they put a prop dome on this one here. That’s the right one it
should be, but that prop, I didn’t have that prop. I didn’t have that dome—or that—you
know. I went to—what’s-his-name over on the other side of the river there had all kinds
of airplane parts and all that. I conned him out of getting a motor for the prop.
SL:
Oh, for the prop control.
PW:
So I fixed the blades up we could, fixed them up. And I put that on there just for
appearance only, and it wouldn’t—it wasn’t—it won’t fit, wouldn’t—but that isn’t on
there. This was a real motor in—on the blade.
SL:
Interesting. That’s very interesting. Oh, boy.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, I hope—I don’t mean to downgrade anybody, nobody at all.
SL:
No, no. No, no. Uh-uh [negative].
PW:
But everybody was doing their part trying to make things right.
SL:
That’s exactly right.
PW:
But like I say, I’m happy to see that airplane.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Like that airplane and the F6Fs, which was preceded—or after, I mean, on the carrier
there. One of the interesting things there is—maybe something to listen to—is that one of
my jobs was checking airplanes. When they got out of battle and everything and they
come back, you got bullet holes around there and all in the airplanes.
SL:
Right. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Well, rather than taking—trying to take the whole unit off and have it repaired, I took
some dope and made myself some little patches.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And I started making little patches and putting them on the part of the tail—the
tailfeathers and all of that.
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SL:
Right.
PW:
Anywhere. Yeah, I just patched it up like it was new again. So, I mean, we didn’t have to
[unintelligible 01:37:26] nothing. Patch that baby and go.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. [unintelligible 01:37:30].
PW:
And I did that a lot of times.
SL:
Wow. What plane were you in charge of on the Lexington? What was the—
PW:
SBDs.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. And so Admiral Weymouth [Ralph Weymouth] was the skipper of that
group, and he was from Annapolis. And he was quite active and noted there, too. Because
I was back there—I’d go to Annapolis when I was in the area. But anyway, Admiral
Weymouth and—but he was just Lieutenant Weymouth when I knew him, when we were
working after—
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Interesting.
PW:
So we’d patch—you know, that was part of it. When the airplane would come back, I’d
go around and look and find bullet holes and patch—put patch on them.
SL:
Quickly patch them up. Yeah.
PW:
And make sure no structure was damaged and send them on. What the heck. One other
time—one time, they got a TBF come in.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Those are big airplanes.
PW:
Well, it was probably a TBM, but [unintelligible 01:38:37] looks the same. But anyway,
the gun got off-sync and shot a hole right through one of the blades and the prop and
was—we needed our planes. We were in a bad shape to fulfill our missions. And so I just
smoothed it up real good as much as I could, and it was a little vibration but not bad.
SL:
But not bad.
PW:
But for what we needed, we needed it. So we flew that until we had time to change the
prop.
SL:
Wow.
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PW:
Well, you know, because—you see, you needed to fix it to make it—so I did. I smoothed
it.
SL:
You did what you had to do.
PW:
I had to do—did what I had to do. And so many people were—but there was always
somebody, somehow—I don’t know what their life was like before they went aboard. But
if you’ve got something—need it, fix it. And that’s what I did. I did—smoothed the prop
up, painted it black again. It whistled a little bit. [laughter]
SL:
That’d scare the guy on the ground—you’re coming after. What the heck?
PW:
Oh, that’s another story. [laughter] Now, I got a true—these are true stories. And anyway,
I’m not making them up. They’re true. Like you were saying something about scaring a
guy. This one guy there in the rear seat, gunner on the SBD, he came back in one day and
he went like this. I said, “What’s going on?” And he says, “Oh,” he says, “I had this Jap
bearing down on us here.” And he says, “I had my gun stowed and they weren’t available
to me.” He says, “The only thing I had—because I had a camera with me for—,” to get
some pictures of what the damage could do and all this. And he says, “I just put my
camera up and pointed it at him.” He says, “He peeled off and left us.” [laughter] Yeah,
that’s a true story.
SL:
That’s cool.
PW:
He says, “The only I could do is point my camera at him and hope that he’s scared.” And
he says, “I did.”
SL:
And it worked.
PW:
He said, “We peeled off and we came home safe.” [laughter]
[production talk]
PW:
No, what I’m saying is truth all the way through. There’s no make up on it at all. But I
enjoy what I did. I did a lot of things. I feel that—like Boeing’s with their refueling
system here. We had one of them on the KC-97 one time and mounted. It was—take the
hinges off the doors back there and put this thing back up there. We made a tanker out of
it. [takes a bottle of water] Oh, thank you. Oh yeah. That’s right. I was going to get a cup
of coffee.
[production talk]
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PW:
No, but I said in the beginning, guys, that I’ve enjoyed life. Life was very interesting to
me. And I feel so confident or—that people who relied on me to help to do things and I’d
do them, that it was—they had a lot of faith in me, and I had faith that I could do it.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But did you ever hear the old Boeing B-17 has got five engines?
SL:
You worked on the one with—
PW:
Five-engine job.
SL:
With the one in the nose?
PW:
Up in the hangar—Hangar One.
SL:
Yeah.
[production talk]
SL:
Well, yeah, because that was a test bed, right?
PW:
Yeah. That was a test bed for triple-prop engines.
SL:
For trip—okay. And you worked on that?
PW:
Yeah. I built—I put it on there.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. I was up there. We put the airplane right in what used to be Hanger Two up here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Okay. That’s what it was. And—yeah.
SL:
So when you put something like that on, are you then flying in the aircraft as well?
PW:
No, not—no, no, no. But just—this was something the customer wanted. At the same
time—maybe you did know it, maybe you don’t. But you know our Alaskan Airlines
here?
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
I worked on an Alaskan Airline airplane right in Hangar One up there.
SL:
Really?
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PW:
Yeah, and we maintained them there while—they’d bring them back from hauling coal
during the Berlin thing, and they’d have some of their airplanes—as a matter of fact, I
think it might be the ones hanging up in there.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I don’t know that. I have to double check that. You would be in more position. And,
yeah, we used to have—they had two airplanes. They had a DC-4 like that, and the—and
then the C-47—46. 46, I think it was.
SL:
46s they were running?
PW:
Yeah. Huh?
SL:
That’s a little unusual, I think, compared to the 47s.
PW:
No, that was the only one—Alaska Airlines, as far as I know, that’s the only two
airplanes they had.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And I worked on both up off of Hanger One. Matter of fact, one of the guys that worked
up there with me, Smokey Stover—
SL:
I know that name.
PW:
Yeah. Well, anyway, he was in the crew. So when we—they—Alaska took their planes
back up to—north here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
The airplanes that are flying off there now. Give me a city—town.
SL:
Everett.
PW:
Well, it’s Everett, but the field.
SL:
Oh, Paine Field.
PW:
Paine Field, yeah. Okay. Well, Alaska, they had a hangar at Paine Field.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Okay. So they took their planes back to Paine Field. See, Alaska Airlines didn’t have no
money, so we were kind of helping them in a way here at Boeing.
SL:
Oh, that’s cool.
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PW:
Yeah. And so we maintained a lot of their airplanes for them, you know. Those two
airplanes. We didn’t do a lot—big work. We did a little bit to help them. But anyway,
yeah, old Smokey, he was on the crew with us. So when they—they tried to get a bunch
of us to come up to Paine Field with them. And, no, I didn’t want to go do that, so I
stayed here. But Smokey, he went with them up—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so he was a Boeing employee, but he went up there to help them.
SL:
To help them out.
PW:
When they went back to Paine Field.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, I think the original hangar is still up there.
PW:
Yeah, it is. They’ve got a museum in part of it.
SL:
Okay. That’s what I’m thinking of. It’s—yeah, Paul Allen’s—
PW:
Yeah, yeah. I went up there. I can’t recognize it too much now.
SL:
Probably not, yeah.
PW:
But I went through their museum up there a little bit, too, one time.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. He’s got quite a bit of stuff in that museum that’s very unique
aircraft, I think. That’s a nice area to go.
PW:
They have a—they have a lot of what I call “hardware.” Old vehicles and stuff like that.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Trucks and tankers and something. It’s all historical. But I was in aviation.
SL:
Right.
PW:
To me—just like you do—Ohio National Guard having old biplanes.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I wonder what those planes were? Any idea?
PW:
Well, there—oh, there was several manufacturers at that time.
SL:
That would have been mid ‘30s.
PW:
They were old dope-and-fabric airplanes, you know. But that’s—[addressing
videographer Peder Nelson] are you still—are you all right yet?
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[production talk]
PW:
But anyway, guys. But like I said, the airplanes up there—or the structure-tested the big
airplanes up there at Everett, you know, where they had one total destruction. Did you see
the one inside under cover? I was the supervisor of that job of running that test. It was old
[Heling?] was the engineer on it. And—yeah.
01:48:31
[Discussion of Boeing career, part one]
SL:
What were some of your favorite things that you worked on at Boeing?
PW:
Oh my, everything was favorite to me.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, everything was favorite. Boy, just like all your flight control assessment. I
used to have to come from Seattle here and go over to Renton to—we had the control
services and operations, you know, the ailerons and elevators and everything like that.
And yeah, we had to proof all that system for the autopilots and everything. And the same
way over here right across the street here. We had one there, and I occasionally had to go
over there with that, too.
But anyway, after Everett, I said the 747 program and all that—and all the things went
on. I finally got Seattle here to get—somehow get me back down here. And so—but
that—that was the interesting—and I knew that thing must cost a lot of money, that thing.
We sensed it, too, you know. And I gave it a lot of time in driving from here to Everett
to—for different things, and wear and tear on your car and whatever you want to do. I
never got compensated for that.
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
But it would just—would add more cost to the operation and a knowing that we needed.
SL:
Well, yeah, you say you could feel it in the company. What was it like to be working
there back in ‘67, ‘68, ‘69, when it was such a difficult time?
PW:
Well, you just—you had to be a part of the company to feel that, you know. What you
can do—if you find nuts and bolts or something on the floor or some part and everything
like that, you got it and put it back into circulation. To me, that was putting money back
in the cash drawer. And that’s the way I felt about things. I always had a—I was in
supervision, and anything to me—I said, “I’m going to save my wages. And I’ll do
everything I could to save the cost.”
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SL:
So you really knew how difficult the times were?
PW:
Oh, I did. Yeah. Oh, you sensed it. You know, if you want—some people could care less.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Because they just worked and went home.
SL:
It was just a job.
PW:
Yeah, just a job. And when I’d get up at 2:00 in the morning to go up and to get
something done up at Everett, that’s a lot of—snow in there. Oh, that highway between
here and Everett was just full of moguls. Snow, you know, and the rough—I still
remember those days. And so—and then again, I was just lucky to find a parking spot.
[laughter]
SL:
Well, I’m sure there was a lot of people working on that.
PW:
Yeah. But—oh man. Well, we’re not deviating too far away from the Museum here.
That’s what we’re working on now to make this world renowned.
SL:
This is a wonderful museum now. Yeah. It really is.
PW:
It is. It is. Now, I stopped in—I stopped back in Dayton and went to old Patterson Field
one time I went back that way. And I stopped there for a little bit, but I thought, “Oh, I
didn’t—I’ll be here for a week.” [laughter]
SL:
Well, and when you were on it in the war time, it had to have been so much different.
PW:
Oh, it was—it was, yeah. And then, like I said, like the old B-19, breaking through the
taxiway.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
PW:
[unintelligible 01:52:51]
SL:
Didn’t think it was a problem, and it was.
PW:
Yeah, it was. It was a problem. Well, nobody really gave a lot of thought to weight, and
then when it gets warm or something and the blacktop gets soft and goes right through.
SL:
You bet.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
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PW:
And—
01:53:14
[Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa]
SL:
Yeah. Well, you mentioned one other famous person from Ohio, too, that you knew.
PW:
What say?
SL:
John Glenn.
PW:
Oh, John Wayne [sic]. Oh yeah.
SL:
Glenn.
PW:
Poor old John. I stop and say hi to him every so often, go by and, “Hi, John.” Well, John
and I were in the same school district in Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so therefore we were in the same athletic district, too. So one time, I got—we used
to compete. When we’d go over to his place, we’d compete in New Concord at the
Muskingum College. And John was in high school and I was in high school, but we went
there to compete. But John would always beat me in dashes. And so I said, “I’m going to
fix that.” So I beat him in pole vault. So that kind of irritated him, made him mad, so he
joined the aerospace group to get—so he get higher than I could. [laughter]
SL:
Got one up on you.
PW:
But I know—no, he—I didn’t know John real, real close. I just knew him that we
competed in athletics at school.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And because we were in the same district.
SL:
Same district and the same age. Yeah.
PW:
And the library called—one time, we took a break in a day and went with John to his
grandmother. His grandmother lived there in town, I think. And she had cookies and milk
for us. So I ate his grandma’s cookies and milk. [laughter]
SL:
Ah, that’s great.
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PW:
But I always tell it jokingly now, jokingly, that, “Old John,” I says, “he just—I beat him
in pole vaulting, and then he never got over that. So he would join the Astronaut Corps
just so he could get higher than I could.” But he was a fast little guy, like a little bunny
rabbit, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
But I don’t know all the fine details. I just know this little—we weren’t—
SL:
It’s a good connection.
PW:
Yeah, a good connection.
SL:
It’s a—yeah. It’s a human connection.
PW:
And just like the Rickenbacker thing, the fact that we were on flight together, you know,
and when he was trying to sell Eastern Air Lines airplanes. And I met—oh, I’ve met a lot
of people around the country with flying around with that sales, trying to get—sell them
flight demonstration.
SL:
Well, it’s interesting—yeah, to being on the demonstration team like that had to have
been really interesting.
PW:
Yeah, it was. It was. And, oh, you know—Chicago, where United Wing—Chicago. Well,
that was nothing but a bunch of boards was there. And so we pulled into United Wing—
and that’s what it was going to be, and we parked—and while we [unintelligible
01:56:39] in, they had a viewing area up above the little—and somebody up there told—
says, “Well, you guys, you made your appearance.” But he says, “There’s some people
was up that was trying to encourage all of the people in the viewing areas to hold their
ears and make noise to, you know…” Ah, wait a minute. And so they said, “But you guys
did a good job.” I said, “That’s great.”
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But you countered what the—people wanted to fight Boeing, you know.
SL:
Right.
PW:
And I thought, “That was a plus.”
SL:
Right:
PW:
That was a plus.
SL:
Wow.
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PW:
One time, I was back in what used to be—Washington, D.C. there. They call it—it’s got
a different name now.
SL:
At Dulles?
PW:
No, no, Dulles is—that’s where your—
SL:
The Dash 80 is at Dulles there, yeah.
PW:
Dash 80 sitting there. [unintelligible 01:57:45] the Enola Gay.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Oh, it is? I didn’t realize that was—they were together.
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, they’re right across the aisle from each other.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
What is the name of that airport? But they call it now Washington—
SL:
Washington National?
PW:
Yeah, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But [unintelligible 01:58:10]—we landed there with the Dash 80 one time, you know.
And probably there—we were trying to—we were there on the purpose with the military
side to make sure to give them their tankers, the flying boom, you know.
SL:
Oh, right.
PW:
Because I was on the flying boom program, too, from the very beginning.
SL:
Oh, you were?
PW:
Yeah, I was in that and—right here on the field.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And [unintelligible 01:58:40] that was going on, we were in the lobby of this hotel that it
was at, and this elevator came down behind us. And when it landed, out come Jimmy
Hoffa and two of the federal people on each arm. And so I looked—I didn’t know all of
this until I started to inquire a little bit while I was looking at. And he says, “Oh, he got
subpoenaed, and they just make sure that he attends.” [laughter] But that’s the last time
I’d seen Jim Hoffa.
SL:
Yeah. A lot of folks haven’t seen him for a while. [laughs]
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PW:
And—oh my.
SL:
I’ll look at my notes here.
01:59:32
[Flying boom program]
PW:
And anyway, then—no, like I was saying about—shut me up here when you get through.
SL:
No, it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting.
PW:
And anyway, we talk about the flying boom thing, you know. I was in on it right on the
very beginning with that. And we had some old B-29s sitting around and so they wanted
to make them into tankers, so I got involved with those over—we did it over in Renton.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Converted them and put tanks in the bellies of the plane and plumbed them up so we
could refuel.
SL:
Well, didn’t they use that B-29 for that for very long?
PW:
Yeah. No, no, we converted them right over here in Renton.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And anyway, that was an interesting job. But we wanted a backup because we had the
KC—you know, we were going to make it a tanker.
SL:
The KC-97.
PW:
But we wanted to use this as a backup with it, also.
SL:
Okay, I see. Because it was the KC-97, I think, was—
PW:
The KC-97. We made a tanker out of it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
And that was the Stratocruiser?
PW:
Stratocruiser, yeah. Did you know that the crease beam down the side of the fuselage of
the KC—then the Stratocruiser had a crease—
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SL:
Yeah, I’ve seen it. It’s an unusual shaped fuselage.
PW:
I’ve been told that for us to have that design, we had to pay a royalty to—what was it?
Curtiss or somebody. Because that was their design.
SL:
The C-46, I think.
PW:
I don’t know which one it was now.
SL:
Or the C-50—C-46 I think had that. You’re right. I didn’t know that. Yeah.
PW:
Okay. But then I didn’t know it at the time, but—
SL:
Sort of makes sense.
PW:
Yeah. Because that was a patented design—
SL:
[unintelligible 02:01:37].
PW:
…on the fuselage, to have that in there, although it wasn’t just exactly the same. But,
yeah, you used the crease beam.
SL:
Yeah, the design behind it.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
I always wondered what that was, why it was built that way.
PW:
Yeah. Well, that’s because we wanted to strengthen up the fore beams and everything.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I think that’s probably it, you know, and for less weight. If you had to go all the way
out, that takes a lot of weight.
SL:
Oh, certainly it would have. I mean, for the engines of the time. I mean, yeah.
PW:
I don’t know the full—I’m not in the engineering part of that, though. I wanted to be as
much as I dare to be.
SL:
Well, yeah, you were the one that put it into practical use.
PW:
Yeah, practical use. So we did it that way. And, yeah, we perfected that old boom, the
flying boom thing right here on this field, up around the top hangar up here, Hangar One.
And that’s where we had the old wooden derricks up there to house it in, the boom.
SL:
Oh, really?
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PW:
Yeah. And then later on, they made a metal boom—metal derrick to fit it on. But we used
that. We used regular high-octane fuel in it, too.
SL:
Oh yeah. Well, I guess you’d have to for [unintelligible 02:03:05] work?
PW:
Well, no, you can use anything. You could—but we wanted to make it as natural and
everything to sell the Air Force on the flying boom. And we did, as well as—like I said,
there was—over at Renton, we put—how many of them B-29s we converted to flying
booms.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Must have been a lot.
PW:
God, this is digging into my memories so deep. One thing goes—something goes into the
next thing. But it was always busy, always busy.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That’s good that it is.
PW:
Yeah. I like my work. If I’m challenged, I like it even better.
SL:
Yeah, that—you’re right. That keeps the brain going.
PW:
Oh, yes. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
SL:
Yeah, yeah. Did you work on the boom for the 747 by any chance? Because they made a
couple of tankers out of the 747, but I didn’t know whether that was the same boom or
the same design.
PW:
Oh yeah, we used the same one.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, we had—yeah, I was there on development, too. We had the nozzles on the boom.
We had the other nozzles that you see today, and we tested them, too.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
That was made by Bendix.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative]. This one here that we—I think maybe still is today was
made by [Vard?].
SL:
I’ve never heard of them before. [laughs]
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PW:
Well, they made it. [laughs] We’re talking, and one things came up behind there—I’d
like to be able to hear myself again. But, yeah, like in the early days of the 707 airplanes,
we always had—the customers were hollering because the leading edge flap—flaps and
the leading edge of the wing would—they’d park a plane, and they’d go out and their
flaps had—they all fell down because of the hydraulic. But there was something to do
with the no-locking mechanism when the flaps retracted, so they relied on black—the
back pressure of the—on the hydraulic line to keep them up.
Well, I was managing on that system—on that, too, right up in Hangar Two. We put—
machine shop. We had a little machine shop back there. And so we went in and tore them
tore them apart and found out how to do it—had the machine, a groove in it, so when
they’d get up they’d stay up.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And so what we do with that—well, we had to—so as soon as we can, they’d—all right.
When you take the—all the cylinders off of that plane, send them here and we’ll send you
a repaired part back. And that’s how we did—solved that without too much noise, you
know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, kind of doing it in the background a little bit.
PW:
It’s all—oh, you know how that would be taken by different people. So as far as
everybody else knows, it’s just like it was from the beginning.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But they are new actuators. Wasn’t the same actuator, but we modified the locking
device.
SL:
But a slight modification—yeah, a slight modification that you guys came up with.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And when they—oh, United had a lot of our airplanes, you know.
And so when they—you know, we had—we were busy. And time didn’t matter. It had to
be done. It had to be done. So our flaps didn’t fall down no more.
SL:
Yeah, because that would look pretty strange.
PW:
Yeah. And I was just telling you about the boom you’re talking about there. There are
stories behind there in my head. Oh, lots of them. But it was—we had to prove what
nozzle we wanted to put on the boom, and that’s why we ended up with that one. “Okay,
that’s fine.” And one time when we was modifying for a B-29 tanker, one day they—
somebody says, “This don’t fit.” “What’s that?” “The surge boot.” Somebody made a
mistake somewhere, and we got—they put the surge boot 24 inches too long. And they
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brought it to us to put—“Well, you guys, you can’t…” So somebody misread a drawing
or something.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. And made it two feet too long.
PW:
Two feet too long, and it won’t fit. You can’t—[laughs]. But we caught it real quick, and
so they corrected it.
SL:
It sounds like you brought an awful lot of the practical side of how this needs to be
worked—
PW:
Oh, very practical.
SL:
…from—yeah.
PW:
Don’t bother me with the little tiny, nitpicky details because I’ll give it right back to you.
[laughter]
SL:
No, that’s good. That’s good.
02:08:34
[Discussion of Boeing career, part two]
PW:
But in same light I was talking about before—now, these are generalities. However you
want to do this. I don’t know. But like I say, I was real happy that on the 747 program we
never never—that I felt I saved every bit of money that I was paid.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That says a lot because a lot of people don’t do that.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so to me, it was money out of my pocket if I didn’t, you
know—but sometimes I got reprimanded for what I did, but then later on it come back,
“Well, you did the right choice.” [laughs]
SL:
Well, and obviously, because you had a long career there.
PW:
Oh yeah.
SL:
And you made it through those big downturns like that and stayed employed. That’s not
easy.
PW:
Yeah, all the way—the Stratocruiser. I was here from the beginning of the Stratocruiser.
SL:
Were you?
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PW:
I used to work with Ed [Hill?]. He was the supervisor of the engine shop over there,
building up engines. And anyway, I worked under Ed. At that time, we had to have one
licensed mechanic, which I was, for every 20 employees.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
There was that kind of a ratio.
SL:
So you’re signing off on it, essentially, by—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. So I met the quota, and that’s why I think they leaned on me quite a bit because I
had—
SL:
Well, yeah, you had a qualification that they really needed.
PW:
And—but we had a job to do.
02:10:17
[Seaplane operations, part two]
SL:
Yeah, yeah. And did it well. So when you were doing all of this still at Boeing and
working on all of this at Boeing, were you still flying on the side and working on the side
on—
PW:
Oh yeah. I was talking about seaplane operations.
SL:
Yes.
PW:
I had three guys operating off of Lake Union. They’re dependent on me.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But I couldn’t do them all. But you ever know of—oh, right here on Boeing, right on the
field here. He had a contract with the University of Washington for flying, teaching
flying.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I could never forget his name.
SL:
Was it—I’m thinking Gillis, but—
PW:
No. This side of [unintelligible 02:11:09] used to be. Art Bell. Art Bell.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
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PW:
Art Bell. Okay. I was his so-called top man for him to have his business.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Then he started in on a sideline towing targets. And anyway, I helped him all along that
line, too.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
And Art was a good friend. I thought he was a good friend. And, oh, that Art Bell, I tell
you. I had Art—one time, I did this one airplane, and it had to be a test flight on it. So I
says, “Art, will you do me a favor? Go—tell me if this is all right to you, the flight.” So,
“Oh, okay. I’d be glad to.” So I let him fly it, and I says— [unintelligible 02:12:10] that
little devil. [laughs] He was a corker. Anyway, we got out on the runway and we’re
getting ready to take off, or I thought we were going to be taking off. And he’d run the
airplane over, and he’d run the airplane over there on the main runway back and forth.
And then he’d raise it up off of the one wheel, and then he’d raise it up off on the wheel
like that. He says, “I bet I scared those guys in the control tower.” [laughter]
SL:
He was just playing with them.
PW:
And he was. He was just playing with those guys up there. “Art, don’t get me in trouble.”
[laughter] But he did. Art, he had all the [unintelligible 02:12:55] there. This is just a new
rebuilt airplane. I just did it. But that was both a test flight and doing that like that on the
runway. [laughter]
SL:
We’re just making sure.
PW:
But he says, “Ah,” he says, “I woke them up.” [laughter]
SL:
I would say so.
PW:
But, yeah. But Art, he was a nice guy, and I helped him. I helped him. He was—he had
some things to fulfill because he had a contract with the University in a way, you know.
And so I kept his—he had a bunch of Piper Cubs.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
And so I maintained them for him. The only thing I was—I worried every time I opened
up the hangar doors, I thought the roof was going to fall in because it needed so much
work on the hangar.
SL:
A rough old hangar. Yeah. Oh, wow.
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PW:
And so I got—he didn’t hold very many of them. Most of them we tied up outside. And,
geez, here you got me wound up here, you know.
SL:
[laughs] The times are fun to talk about. I enjoy it.
02:14:05
[Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft]
PW:
Oh yeah. But you sound like, you know—like experimental thing like that, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah. I do.
PW:
The guy that—Thorp [John Thorp], the T-18s [unintelligible 02:14:15], they’re all—all
those guys were always calling me to come help—
SL:
Really? Yeah.
PW:
…do something—do for them, you know. And hydraulics that they had was very similar,
and—
SL:
Well, those are a very popular plane. I think—
PW:
Oh, it was. They were nice. You got the old shell of one right up above here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I think Cecil Hendricks, did he have—
PW:
Cece, yeah. And his dad. His dad had one with four seats.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
Floyd.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah, he had one. And then Cecil got one and—well, Cecil
built that one, I think.
SL:
I think he did, yeah. That kind of rings a bell.
PW:
Yeah, I think he did. I think [unintelligible 02:14:58] the one he built. And there was
another guy, too. J.W. It was up Burien area.
SL:
Don’t know him, I don’t think.
PW:
But anyway, he built—and so I used to—they used to call me to come help them out, you
know, and—oh, I did. I was always busy.
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SL:
So that was your second job, helping all of these guys?
PW:
Third job or fourth job.
SL:
[laughs] Yeah, helping.
PW:
I didn’t even count them. But I didn’t get paid for a lot of the times. I did it just to keep
aviation going.
SL:
Just to—and to keep you going on that stuff, yeah.
PW:
To keep me going, too.
SL:
What prompted you to build a Volksplane?
PW:
A picture.
SL:
Really?
PW:
And the fact of Volkswagen engine.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Because it’s a very unusual airplane. A lot of people don’t know
anything about them.
PW:
Yeah, it was. Some of the people, they cut one of them in half, the engine.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. And they made it a two-cylinder instead of a four-cylinder.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. And no power there to speak of, but—
SL:
No, no.
PW:
But—because they was all four good. [laughter] But, no, it’s—yeah, they had a two
engine there. Then they had the two engines, too. They had the—was it a 1,600, an
1,800?
SL:
That rings a—yeah, the Kahuna engines or something like that?
PW:
I don’t know who it was now.
SL:
Yeah, with the two little—
PW:
I had one of them one time. I had—and it so happened—no, what was it? I bought this
one just for the engine part of it. And I thought—things got weird. What’s that sound?
And I know the guy’s innocent. So I opened it up, and the crankshaft come out in two
pieces.
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SL:
Oh, geez.
PW:
Yeah, right at one of the journals on the—
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And it had broken in there, and these [unintelligible 02:16:57] were colliding each other.
That’s why it was—
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
And it wasn’t a smooth 360 rebreak. It was a—it was kind of like a dogged—
SL:
A jagged—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. And, yeah. So I had a guy, he had an auto parts here, American something or
another, auto parts place. And so I told him what happened. He says, “Oh, you got ahold
of one of those Mexican crankshafts.” I says, “What?” He says—and so he told me about
that. He says, “I’ll get you one from Germany.” And he did.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And so he says, “Now,” he says, “they’ve been noted to do that, all of those that were
made and manufactured in Mexico.” He says, “Been reported breaking.”
SL:
The quality just wasn’t there.
PW:
And so I said, “Hey, that’s great.”
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
So he—so that’s how I made—I found out about the crankshafts.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you had to have been a big help to a lot of these homebuilders.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, [unintelligible 02:18:08]. A lot of them use the Volkswagen. But they convert
pretty good, pretty easy, and—but some of them, you [unintelligible 02:18:19] cut them
in half, make—[laughs].
SL:
Well, yeah. I used to—I rebuilt Volkswagens from time to time over the years.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
So, yeah, why would you take something that small and make it smaller?
PW:
Yeah. Well, as long as you didn’t hurt the compression ratio—
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SL:
Well, yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
PW:
You just make it run a little faster to get it—take out two cylinders into four.
SL:
Oh, man. Yeah. So what did you end up doing with that airplane and with other
airplanes? I assume you owned other airplanes.
PW:
Oh, oh, the one I had, never had it complete. One of our dear Boeing engineers is a
friend. He watched me build it. And he was being transferred back east, and he said, “I
want to build a Volksplane.” And so I just bundled it all together and sold it to him.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And then he says, “Now,” he says, “I got—” I didn’t have the wings yet. And so I says, “I
know a guy that’s got some wings. He hasn’t got any fuselage, but he’s got some wings
he built.” And so we went to him, and he made a deal with that guy. So when he went
back east, he had wings and everything. [laughter] But they weren’t—nothing was
covered yet, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
PW:
But here again, Pete Bowers I was talking about. Pete had an engine. Was it a Franklin?
Forty-horse, something like that? Anyway, Pete had it on the—over at his place, and I’d
seen it there, and I thought, “That’ll work good in my Volksplane.” So I modified my
plane for that engine to fit in it. And Pete sold it—he gave it to me or sold it to me. I
don’t know. I have a—if I can find it, a whole—the book form of the Volksplane plans
and all that.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
I got one that Pete gave me one time. [unintelligible 02:20:31].
SL:
Oh, that’s interesting.
PW:
Yeah. Do we have any need for it here, I wonder?
SL:
Probably. I don’t know, but the Volksplane is unusual enough we probably don’t have
much on that in the archive.
PW:
Well, I’m talking about Fly Baby.
SL:
Oh, the Fly Baby. We have, actually—they have his original Fly Baby up at the
Restoration Center.
PW:
Yeah, okay. But I’d worked on that. I worked on that one.
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SL:
Yeah, and [unintelligible 02:20:51].
PW:
And I even flew it.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, we have that, and we have the biplane wings up there for it, too.
PW:
Oh, do you? Oh yeah. Okay. That’s the one I told you where Pete had me in the back and,
“Pete, I cannot reach the rudder pedals.” [laughter]
SL:
Exactly. Yes.
PW:
Well, I didn’t know that. Did you—do you have—what’s-his-name had that homebuilt
twin-engine job. Wick—
SL:
Yeah, I—oh, man.
PW:
I know we had it here. He had it hanging in the overhead for a while.
SL:
It’s probably up in Everett at the Restoration Center, would be my guess. But I think I
know which one you mean because I think it’s hanging at one of the hangars up there.
[cellphone rings]
PW:
It’s a homemade, and it’s the only twin-engine we had around here, a homemade for—is
that me or you?
[production talk]
PW:
But I know from the very beginning—I keep talking to the guys. I said, “Do you guys
remember when the road used to—the Airport Way right here used to come around here,
come through and hook up to East Marginal—to Marginal Way?” “No, I never heard of
that.” Well, it did. Yeah, you know, we didn’t have all that stuff up there at all.
SL:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Exactly.
PW:
God.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
As a matter of fact, on that land, or most of it here, used to be an RV park.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Yeah. And—
SL:
Interesting. Well, I’ve heard stories about a bar that used to be—
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PW:
Oh yeah. There was a—oh, that had a name. I didn’t go there. My mother wouldn’t allow
me. [laughter]
SL:
Well, yeah, the reputation for it was also where a lot of things got done. If you needed
county-level approval, that’s where you got it done.
PW:
Yeah. Did you ever hear of Clair Popejoy?
SL:
Uh-uh [negative].
PW:
Oh, he was a—well, he ended a mayor of Tukwila.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But he was in flight test with us here.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And whenever—Clair and I, though, would stop up at [unintelligible 02:24:11] and have
coffee and donuts the night before we’d finish on. Sure, they talked about a little—a few
things and away we’d go. And stop every night. I worked a swing shift then.
SL:
Okay. Yeah.
PW:
And so it’s an unwinding type thing.
SL:
Sure, sure.
PW:
And that guy, I think he’s still in business.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But he’s relocated at a different place.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I told you. Don’t get me wound up.
SL:
[laughs] Well, it sounds like your daughter’s waiting for you now, too, I suppose, so—
PW:
Yeah, she’s out here. She’s—no hurry.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
No, no, she—
SL:
No, because that—yeah, we’ll talk as long as you want to talk. [laughs]
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PW:
Don’t you guys have to go home? You didn’t bring—you didn’t—I think your batteries
ought to be wore out by now.
[production talk]
02:25:28
[Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight]
KELCI HOPP:
So you mentioned a while back in one of your previous stories that you
had a story about Harl Brackin.
PW:
Yeah.
KP:
I was wondering if you could talk about that.
PW:
Oh, with Harl, while we were both together with the PNAHF, started out with, and then
with the Museum part over here, but mostly with the Museum portion of it is where—but
like I said, part of the story was everybody was down on me for having a fly-in to support
the Museum. And I’m saying, “No. It won’t do it.” And they—although they’d fight me,
and they had a beautiful turnout. And then Harl was there, and he acknowledged the fact
that I fooled them. [laughs] But he says, “You pulled it off.” But I wouldn’t have done it
unless I could figure—do something.
SL:
But you—yeah, you knew it would work.
PW:
Yeah. There has to be an end, a good end.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
There has to be a good—the end, yeah. Okay. Now, Harl and I—I just associated with
him only through the Museum. I never—not work or anything.
KP:
Got you. And how did you first become involved with volunteering with the Museum?
PW:
With it here?
KP:
Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Because it was—with PNAHF, I was with them from the very—like I said, before we
even had any place to put the airplanes, so in somebody’s front yard.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
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PW:
Over at McMicken Heights, they were parked in—
SL:
Yeah. So you still—yeah, you continued it from day one.
PW:
Day—right. Yeah.
SL:
And then you’ve been a volunteer now—
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, I do it now because my heart is in this.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
You know?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I like being—there’s nothing to be—for me to gain by it, you know. I mean, there is
always self-satisfaction, but there’s no—
SL:
Well, and that’s it. There’s kind of thinking about what you—what legacy you want to
leave here and with this Museum, the Museum is part of it, obviously.
PW:
Well, it—yeah, I believed in it from the very beginning, and I want to see it survive. But
I’m a stickler on maintaining it, too. And I’ve been raising a little Cain with—around the
circles, I think it’s happening. I didn’t like to see the burnt-out bulbs on the inside. And I
see today—I see these things, and I—and, aha, there’s somebody heard me. [laughter]
SL:
That’s very, very good.
PW:
Oh, I kid the guys in—what do you call it—the high bay area here, you know, the—with
the big—
SL:
Where the—the Great Gallery.
PW:
Yeah, the Great Gallery. Okay. Those guys are all sitting in the end, and I said, “Now, if
you guys got nothing to do but sit here,” I says, “my airplane’s getting awful dusty out
there.”
SL:
[laughs] I like your thinking. We have issues with all of us docents gathering over there.
PW:
Yeah. And so I says—oh yeah, I says—so it wasn’t too long after that they said, “So we
started to clean up.” Or somehow or other. I don’t know when they did it, but they
contacted somebody because they did start cleaning them. You get up on the top rail and
look down, and I don’t—my planes never looked like that.
SL:
[laughs] You’re right. It can be a little dusty.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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PW:
And if you’ve got—and if somebody’s hired to do that, then let them [unintelligible
02:29:31] because the wages will go right on and on.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
That’s my management side. [laughter] Some of the people at dear old Boeing, they
thought I was kind of hard on them a lot of times, but I didn’t—I just tried to
[unintelligible 02:29:48] more responsible for what they’re supposed to be doing. You’re
being paid to do it, but I haven’t got any money to have you do it over again.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Hm-hmm [affirmative]. No, that’s—yeah, understand.
02:30:02
[Closing thoughts]
KP:
I guess our last question could be about future researchers.
SL:
Yeah, exactly. What would you like to leave—basically, when we’re talking about this is
leave for the students and for the future researchers, kind of what your final thoughts on
what you’d like to leave for them.
PW:
Just keep it alive.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Keep it alive. For the Museum itself or in future—
PW:
Keep—the Museum, yeah.
SL:
And your career.
PW:
I don’t know moneywise whether we want to build a—any more bigger—I think let’s
improve what we’ve got instead of trying to venture out into unknowns.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Makes sense. Would you recommend to students and researchers
a career like you’ve had?
PW:
Well, that would be helpful. Do you mean, you know—
SL:
Yeah. If you’re talking to a 10-year-old, would you say, “Do what I did”?
PW:
Oh, no, I talk to a 10-year-old. No, it’s just like today down there when we had
something—we got one of the engines sitting there that you can turn the crankshaft on.
And I said—so I talked to this one young man there, and I was—I said, “Well, how are
you doing?” [unintelligible 02:31:19]. And I reached over and I turned the [unintelligible
02:31:23], and I said, “Ah, this is broke.” You could hand—you could turn the crankshaft
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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by hand like that. Well, I knew it was over his head, but I tried to say—well, I said,
“Maybe the rods in there are not—something’s wrong inside.” And I said, “But this is
where the propeller fits on there.” I said, “This is not supposed to be like this.” And they
think a little bit about why. But there’s—you’ve got to be—the young minds, I think
we’ve neglected to get them back to Earth, to get them back to the beginning.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Inspiring the curiosity that you had.
PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like a lot—some [unintelligible 02:32:11], well, I says, “You
know, that still works on the autocycle.” You know, intake, park, exhaust, and all that
stuff. You know, maybe the kid never heard that before. But just toward the end, let
him—maybe it might soak into his head. He might do some more inquiring as to it.
You’ve got to put a little fertilizer on.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. [laughs]
02:32:38
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Weaver_Paul_P1.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.</p>
<p>Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois). Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).</p>
<p>After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company. Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft, including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.</p>
<p>Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OH_Weaver_Paul_P1
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul Weaver oral history interview (Part 1 of 2)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Paul L. Weaver and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, March 11, 2019. Part 1 of 2.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-11
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Aviation mechanics (Persons)
Boeing Company
Bowers (Peter M.) Fly Baby
General Motors (Eastern) FM-2 Wildcat
Lexington (Aircraft carrier : 1943-1991)
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation
United States. Navy
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
World War, 1939-1945
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (2 hr., 32 min., 38 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part one, he describes his military service with the U.S. Navy; his career with the Boeing Company during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s; and his involvement in the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He also shares stories about other aviation enthusiasts and the early days of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight. Topics discussed include his World War II service aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16); his flight demonstration and mechanic work at Boeing; and his experiences maintaining, restoring, and building aircraft.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16) -- Early interest and experiences with aircraft -- Family background -- Navy experiences, part one -- Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes -- Navy experiences, part two -- Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic -- Seaplane operations, part one -- Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts -- Organizing a fly-in fundraiser -- Aircraft restoration work -- Navy experiences, part three -- Story about Eddie Rickenbacker -- Aircraft restoration and maintenance -- Discussion of Boeing career, part one -- Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa -- Flying boom program -- Discussion of Boeing career, part two -- Seaplane operations, part two -- Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft -- Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight -- Closing thoughts
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https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/7c1ca29fe450f446da068d6c4533128f.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Thomas W. Olsson
Interviewed by: Bruce Florsheim
Date: October 24, 2018
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is interviewed about his military service as a
helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his combat tours in Southeast Asia
flying the Bell AH-1 Cobra gunship and describes his later assignments as a flight instructor for
the Cobra and the Hughes AH-64 Apache. He also touches on his post-military careers with
Rockwell Collins and the Boeing Company and on his volunteer work at The Museum of Flight.
Biography:
Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is a Vietnam War veteran who served with the United States Army as
a helicopter pilot and flight instructor. He was born in the mid-1940s in Kentfield, California to
Ward T. Olsson and Wilma E. Olsson. His father was a career officer with the U.S. Air Force,
and his mother was a housewife and hospital volunteer.
After graduating from high school, Olsson attended the Northrop Institute of Technology
(California), where he studied aircraft maintenance engineering. While in college, he became a
certified A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and worked for Brittain Industries helping to
install aircraft autopilot systems.
In July 1968, knowing that he would likely soon be drafted, Olsson opted to join the U.S. Army
and become an aviator. He completed training at Fort Polk (Louisiana) and Fort Wolters (Texas),
learning to fly on the Hughes 269 helicopter. He next underwent training in the Bell AH-1 Cobra
at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia) and was deployed to Southeast Asia. Over the course of his
combat tour, he flew a mix of attack, visual reconnaissance, ground support, and evacuation
missions and accumulated over 1,300 hours of helicopter flight time.
Returning to the United States, Olsson served the rest of his military career as an instructor pilot
in the Bell AH-1 Cobra and Hughes AH-64A Apache. He retired in 1988 at the rank of Chief
Warrant Officer 4. As a civilian, he worked for Rockwell Collins as a human factors engineer
and for the Boeing Company as a systems engineer and engineering manager. His projects at
Boeing included the 767-400 and 787 Dreamliner.
Olsson’s volunteer work at The Museum of Flight includes serving on the Docent Corps and
participating in the restoration efforts of the Boeing 747 and Boeing B-29 Superfortress. He also
donated materials to the Museum from his and his father’s military careers.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Interviewer:
Bruce Florsheim worked for The Boeing Company for over four decades, from 1967 to 2008. At
the time of his retirement, he was Vice President of Program Management Operations for Boeing
Commercial Airplanes. As of 2019, Florsheim is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and has served as the Docent Leadership Committee (DLC) Chair and DLC Chair
Emeritus.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Mark Jaroslaw, Jaroslaw Media.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background .........................................................................................5
Early aviation experiences ...........................................................................................................7
Favorite aircraft ...........................................................................................................................8
U.S. Army training ......................................................................................................................9
Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot ......................................................................... 10
Personal impact of the Vietnam War ......................................................................................... 16
Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache ................................................... 16
Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing ................................................................................. 19
Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner...................... 21
Involvement with The Museum of Flight................................................................................... 22
Closing thoughts ....................................................................................................................... 23
Favorite aircraft engine ............................................................................................................. 24
B-29 restoration project ............................................................................................................. 24
Overlap with his father’s military career .................................................................................... 26
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Thomas W. Olsson
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
BRUCE FLORSHEIM:
My name is Bruce Florsheim, and we are at The Museum of Flight
in Seattle on October 24th, 2018 for the purpose of interviewing Tom Olsson, a Vietnam
veteran who flew the Cobra helicopter gunship and later the Apache attack helicopter.
I’m going to be talking with Tom primarily about his experiences as an Army pilot in
Vietnam, but we’ll cover the rest of his long aviation-related career as well.
Tom, thank you for taking the time to participate in The Museum of Flight’s Oral History
Program. It’s an honor to have you with us. We’ll start by getting some of the basic
background information. Please state your full name and spell it.
TOM OLSSON:
Thomas William Olsson, O-L-S-S-O-N.
BF:
And just for the record, where and when were you born and where did you grow up?
TO:
So I was born in Kentfield, California, but I’m really a nowhere man because I didn’t
grow up in any given location. My dad was a career Air Force officer, and I spent my
years following him around the world. Everywhere from—right after World War II, he
was in the—an aviator in the Berlin Airlift, and he—we were assigned to Germany, and
then we went to England, and then we went to Alabama and a little bit of everywhere. So
within six months of me being born we were on the road and never stopped.
When I graduated out of high school, I went to college in California. He happened to be
in Washington, D.C. at Andrews Air Force Base. And so I was immediately on my own
heading out, and then the draft and everything else came along, and I found opportunities
within the Army and decided that I’d stay in so that—I just kept moving. And I
actually—the longest time I’ve ever lived anyplace is right here in Seattle. I’ve spent the
last 20—about 20 years here in Seattle.
BF:
All right. Well, I gather your father had an influence on your going into the military?
TO:
That’s a funny story. So I was at a technical college called Northrop Institute in
California, and they—I was studying aircraft maintenance engineering. So a part of that
course was to become an airframe and power plant mechanic, and I was working on—
they had a variety of airplanes and helicopters and stuff for us to work on, and one of
them was a Hughes 269, a little two-seat training helicopter. And so they gave us an
assignment to work on it. I worked on it, and I remember telling a buddy, “Oh man,
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that’s—I’d never get one of those things. That’s really dangerous. Helicopters are
terrible.”
And then the—actually, probably the impetus for going into the military was, at that time,
was Vietnam, and there was a draft going on. I get a letter from the draft board that said,
“Go take a physical.” And I said—I knew I didn’t want to be on the ground running
around, so I went down to the recruiter, and he said, “Well, take this test, and if you pass
it you can go to flight school. The Army’s got this thing called ‘high school to flight’
school.” Well, I’d had three years of college, but he didn’t bother to tell me that there
were other services I could have gone to. He obviously had needed recruits for the Army.
And so I took the test, passed it, and then I went into the military. And when I called my
dad up and told him that I signed up to avoid being drafted, my dad said, “Well, why
didn’t you join the Navy?” [laughs] So that was a pretty funny thing at the time. I don’t
know what I thought at that time, but that’s what happened.
BF:
That worked out fairly well for you.
TO:
Oh, yeah. I did spend 20 years in the military and was very, very happy with my own
career, although—I was a warrant officer, so—as opposed to a commissioned officer,
which commissioned officers in the Army, if they get to be aviators, they don’t get to stay
and keep flying, where a warrant officer, your job is to be an expert and to fly. And so
that’s what I really dearly loved, and so I stayed in. They made the mistake of making me
an instructor pilot, and I had a great time doing that and continued through the career as
a—ended up being an instructor to instructors.
BF:
Okay, let’s round out the basic background information.
TO:
Sure.
BF:
You talked about your father. What was your parents’ names and what—
TO:
So my father Ward T. Olsson. He went by Thomas or Tom. My mother was Wilma E.
Olsson, and she was just a housewife, followed her husband. His career lasted 30 years,
so she just went around and she would volunteer. I can remember her volunteering in
hospitals. I think they called them Candy Stripers or something like that in the Air Force
hospitals, base hospitals, and did those kinds of things.
BF:
All right. Definitely a military family.
TO:
Yeah, she raised three kids, so—I’ve got a brother and a sister.
BF:
Okay. What are their names?
TO:
So my brother is Eric Olsson, and my sister’s name is Mary.
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BF:
You talked a little bit about your education. You went to Northrop, but you’d also had
college at that point and when on to grad school. You want to—
TO:
Yeah. Yeah, when I—after I got out of the military, I went to work for Rockwell
International, at the time, in their division called Collins Radio. And I felt that I had—I’d
gotten a bachelor’s degree—I finished my bachelor’s degree at night in the Army, and I
decided that working for Rockwell, if I wanted to continue in the company or go up in the
company, I needed to get a degree. So I ended up getting an MBA from a college in
Florida.
BF:
You talked about—
TO:
And that was a night school, too.
BF:
You talked about the draft coming up and your decision to go into the Army. What did
you plan to do before that happened?
TO:
Well, I’d been—so I had become an A&P. And I actually was going to college, and I was
working for an outfit called Brittain Industries, who was—built autopilots for small
airplanes. Actually, I ended up putting an autopilot in a P-51. But they were out of
Torrance, California, and so the school was in Inglewood, and so I could go back and
forth from school to down there to Brittain.
And they were—it was an interesting place because they—the engineers would design
the systems, but they’d never designed how to install the systems into the airplanes. Or
they didn’t—when they handed them to me, they wouldn’t say, “Okay, you need to add
this bracket.” What they would do is they’d say, “Okay, here’s the servo. Now figure out
the bracket you need and then give it to us.” And then they would make the drawings to
give to the FAA to certify the systems for the—so they could get the STCs for the
different airplanes. So it was a lot of work like that. And that’s—my real talent is my
hands and being able to work geometry—strange geometries. I seem to think in 3D.
Something like that.
00:08:56
[Early aviation experiences]
BF:
That is a skill, very definitely. Can you tell us about your first plane ride—plane flight as
a pilot or as a passenger?
TO:
[laughs] Well, my—yeah, that’s a good question. So the very first flight was probably a
commercial airliner back when commercial airliners were like the one parked out in front.
Had radial engines. It was probably a DC-6 or a DC-7, following my father someplace
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over Europe. I remember it was—there’s a picture someplace on the web of my sister and
I in a—all dressed up, getting ready to go on an airplane. Back then, everybody got
dressed when they got on an airplane. And so we were the little kids that were going off
to Europe with their mother, unaccompanied—you know, no dad. Dad was already there.
So that was probably my very first exposure to airplanes.
My first exposure to small airplanes was one of my college buddies was a pilot, and he
had a little single-engine, like a very small Cessna, like a 150 or something. And we went
up, and one of the very first things he did is says, “Well, do you want to see a stall spin?”
And I said, “Sure.” So he did this thing, and I’m going, “Wow! That was something,”
when we pulled back out. And so that was my first experience with that.
BF:
All right. Who was the individual who inspired you the most? Mentor or hero?
TO:
You know, to tell you the truth, I just—that’s a question I have a—when you sent that to
me earlier, and I’ve thought about it, and I can’t say that—maybe Lindbergh, but—I
built—I was mechanical. I was hands on, and so it was things like airplanes inspired me.
P-51s, P-47s, those kinds of things were much more the inspiration, trying to figure out,
“How’s that work? Why did they do things the way they did it?” Those were the things
that were important to me.
BF:
All right.
TO:
I had probably—I just can’t point to a single individual.
00:11:32
[Favorite aircraft]
BF:
Okay. And the question we ask all of our interviewees: what’s your favorite aircraft and
why?
TO:
Well, to tell you the truth, probably my favorite aircraft is going to shock a lot of people,
but it’s a Mooney M20C. And the reason is because I owned one for 18 years, flying my
family around the United States. It’s just a wonderful little airplane, very efficient, very
fast for its horsepower. And it was one of the very early models, so it had mechanical
landing gear, and you had a—what they called a Johnson bar that you latched onto the
instrument panel to—for the gear was down, and then when it was up, you pushed the bar
down to the floor. And it was a very reliable system. That was—as a mechanic, I was
always interested in reliable systems, so I didn’t like electric motors running my gear. I
wanted something that I—push-pull tubes and things like that.
BF:
That was a fast airplane, and it had a lot of advancements for its time, definitely.
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TO:
Right. And it could carry four people, and that was—my family was four. And so we
could go from—at the time I bought it, I was in Alabama, and my family all lived in the
Washington, D.C. area. And instead of 55 miles an hour on the freeway up the East
Coast—or I-90, I could get in my Mooney, and at 145 knots, I could be there in half a
day, easy.
BF:
All right. And although we don’t have a Mooney here, what’s your favorite aircraft at
The Museum of Flight?
TO:
Probably the B-17 because of the—I spent two—three years giving tours through the B17, and I was astounded. And it got me interested in the aviators of World War II, and so
I did a lot of reading about what their personal experiences were and—because it just was
fascinating to me. And how—I was impressed with how small it was, and then I started
realizing that most of the guys that flew at that time were about my size, and so even
though I had to squeeze through the bomb bay, it was really—it was typical for them.
They had the same problems, so it was—I was able to personalize that pretty easily.
00:14:04
[U.S. Army training]
BF:
All right. Let’s turn now to your Vietnam War experience. When did you join the Army?
TO:
I joined the Army in July 1988 [sic – meant 1968].
BF:
And where were you sent for training?
TO:
So the very first training was in Fort Polk, Louisiana, basic training, flew a DC—got a
ride—first ride in a DC-3 down to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And the funny thing there was
I’d looked out the window and on the wing somebody had stuck a bumper sticker that
said, “Eat more possum.” [laughter] And I don’t know why, but that’s stuck with me all
these years. That was basic training.
Then from there, after basic training, I went to Fort Wolters, Texas, where we—right
from—so I passed the test, passed the physical for flight physical, and that meant, “Dude,
you’re into it. We’re going to make you a helicopter pilot.” And so they ran us through
basic training, and then we—and then after basic training, we—literally, the day we
graduated from basic training, we climbed on a bus, and we rode a bus ride from
Louisiana to Fort Wolters, Texas, which was—[cellphone rings]—excuse me. Sorry. Let
me turn this off. I don’t—I’m not interested. So we were on the bus, went to Fort
Wolters, Texas, and started—basically you start flight school by doing officer basic—
warrant officer basic training for about six weeks or so, and then you start flying after
that.
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BF:
Started flying on what? What did you—
TO:
So we flew on the—what is a Hughes 269, which is the same helicopter I worked on in
the school that I said I’d never get near. And so I learned to fly that at about a—right
around 100 hours or so in that helicopter. Had my first emergency—true emergency
procedure with an engine failure in a single-engine helicopter during flight school with an
instructor. And the instructor—I was flying. The engine quit, and I thought the instructor
would grab the controls. And he just sat there, and I had to land the helicopter. And that
was a tremendous confidence-builder, obviously, because then I realized that, “Hey, this
training really works.” And became a very good student, let’s say it that way. I just made
it my job to learn as much as I could about flying and helicopters and et cetera.
BF:
All right. How old were you when you arrived overseas? What was the average age of the
pilots?
TO:
Oh, yeah. There—well, so I was the old man. I was probably older than the company
commander. I was 23. Like I said, I’d been to three years of college—I’d actually—
almost four years of college, but I’d started my college career in a junior college that me
and they didn’t get along. And so I transferred out to Northrop, and I found my place
there. But the draft was after me. After four years they said, “That’s it. That’s enough of
that.” So they wouldn’t give me another deferment to finish my degree, so I just—I
joined up with about two or three years of college—I mean, with the four years of
college, and then I—and that made me about 24. I graduated from high school at 18, so I
was a little older than most people that graduated from high school.
The other pilots in the outfit, most of them were—they couldn’t legally buy beer in the
States. They were under 21. Some of them as young as 18. Some of them had fibbed a
little bit about how old they were to be able to fly helicopters. Interesting that—because
the same thing would happen so much in World War II, too, that the kids seemed to be
motivated to do that. Or a certain group of them, anyway.
00:18:38
[Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot]
BF:
Now, you were a pilot on a Cobra helicopter gunship.
TO:
I was.
BF:
Please tell us about that helicopter.
TO:
So a Cobra is a two-place, tandem seating. The fuselage is 36 inches wide. The rotor
blades are 48 inches wide. So the rotor blades, the wings, are actually wider than the
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fuselage of the aircraft. The reason the aircraft’s narrow is because, back then, we
employed the aircraft very much like a fixed-wing. We made diving attacks. We didn’t
hover around the vegetation very much. In fact, the rules in my Calvary squadron was
that you—we flew around above 1,500 feet because that kept us out of the small arms
fire, 1,500 feet AGL. And then we—if we made a diving attack, we were supposed to
pull out of the diving attack at 1,000 feet or higher. That rule was probably bent pretty
regularly because of the heat of the moment.
So an attack helicopter is—you think of them as escorts, but in my unit, we were a
Calvary squadron, so during the day we went out looking for the enemy. Every day, we
had OH-6 observation helicopters, and then the Cobra would fly high cover for them and
they would go out hunting the bad guys, and we would—and then at night, we would
form up the two search teams into a single light fire team, two Cobras, and then we
provided fire support for the 25th Infantry Division. I flew out of Cu Chi, Vietnam, which
was in III Corps, which was just northwest of Saigon. And so a relatively flat area, some
hills on the northern borders. Also, we did a lot of work down in the Plain of Reeds or the
Mekong Delta area, supporting the Navy and the Riverine, the people in the boats up on
the Mekong Delta. So any time we went on a mission, we were headed for trouble. We
weren’t—it wasn’t like we were going to go out and deliver ammunition or somebody’s
lunch. We would go in loaded ready to shoot and hoping not to be shot at, but that
happened, too, so…
BF:
How many missions a day did you fly and what happened after the missions?
TO:
So typically the missions that we flew within our unit was—we had two days on and—or
three days on and a day off. Two days we’d fly day missions, the visual reconnaissance
mission, the scout and the Cobra trying to find—gather intel on the Viet Cong,
Vietnamese. And then at night—so then those two days after the missions, you couldn’t
do anything because you knew that the next day you had to fly again. And then the third
day you would form up into that fire team for the night missions and then you’d have—
you’d fly night missions on that third day. So you got to sleep in in the morning, but you
got—but you usually ended up staying up late the next night. So then by the time that was
over, now you had—the next day you were off, but by then you were so exhausted you
were just ready to hit the hay. You didn’t do much partying, where the scout guys, they
were—they never flew night missions and so they were always—they would be the
partiers group of our squadron.
The missions lasted—so the aircraft carries about—well, the aircraft carries enough fuel
for about two and a half hours of flight. But because you’re loading all the munitions on
the aircraft, it can’t carry the weight of all that fuel and the munitions, so we always
traded fuel for the munitions. We always went out fully loaded, and we—so that meant
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that we usually ended up with about an hour and a half worth of gas. And my experience
was in one year of flying—and that year was actually about 10 months long because I
was actually grounded for a month—in 10 months, I got 1,200 hours of flight time, and
about a third of that—actually over a third of it was at night. We did a heck of a lot of
night flying because we supported—when I say we supported the 25th Infantry Division,
not only did we support all the brigades, but we also supported the LRRP teams, the longrange six-man teams that go out—that went out searching, and those were some of—
those and the Dustoff missions were probably the more exciting ones of our existence.
BF:
On the “Centaurs in Vietnam” website, they talk about one LRRP mission. And you were
flying wingman to Sam Dooling [Thomas “Sam” Dooling]. Can you tell us about that
particular mission?
TO:
So I’m not—sorry. Well, let me—so I can’t—I don’t really remember that mission, per
se. The thing I would like to say is, for me, it was a job. I tried to do the best that I could,
and it all kind of blended together into one giant exercise of—most of the time, it was
running for a helicopter or landing in a POL point, a petroleum—a refuel location to
refuel the aircraft to go and get reloaded to go back out and do exactly the same thing that
I had been doing.
So there were times when the LRRPs would get into action, and we would go out. The
one that I remember the most probably was we were very close to the Cambodian border,
which is probably another story, but we were very close to the Cambodian border, which
meant that we were a long way from any refuel point. And these guys were in real
trouble, and they were having a heck of a time. And so I rolled in, and when I—at this
point, I was the fire team leader, so I had a wingman now. And I rolled in, and the next
thing I know are these basketballs are coming at me. And the basketballs were .51-caliber
machine gun fire, antiaircraft fire, which was effective above 1,500 feet. So I was diving
right into this stuff, and so I was very busy trying to turn off all the exterior lights and at
the same time shoot rockets. And my gunner was shooting with a minigun, which is in
the front of the Cobra. And the grenade launcher to suppress the enemy fire that was
coming at—not only coming up at us but was being shot at the LRRPs. And then we did
get a lift team. Our UH-1s, the lift aircraft, came in and picked them up, and we got them
out of there. There were many examples of things like that. And those typically happened
in the dark and usually after midnight. It was always a long day, a long thing.
BF:
You talk about flying close to the border. You said that’s another story. Unless it’s
classified, can you tell us the story?
TO:
So the—well—so the interesting thing about flying the border is is that, for most of the
time that we were there, we weren’t allowed to shoot across the border. And so we would
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fly the border—or we’d fly along the border to see who was coming across the Ho Chi
Minh Trail. And the guys would shoot from the other side of the border, and we couldn’t
shoot back.
And then the other thing that would happen is is that guys would go out there and they’d
get lost and they’d fly over the border and then they’d cause an incident. So one of the
commanding generals decided that the appropriate thing to do was to paint the border.
And so one of my jobs one time was to cover a UH-1 that had a spray boom and we
sprayed the border, but we didn’t spray it with just regular paint. We sprayed it with
iridescent paint. So the idea—the general’s idea was is that if you came up to the border
and you weren’t sure where you were, you were supposed to turn on your landing lights
so that this line would show up on the ground. You knew that you were—you weren’t
crossing the border. Of course, the instant you turned on your light in the dark, that
attracted everybody’s attention that was interested in knocking you out of the air, so it
wasn’t very successful.
There were other missions where we flew the border with—I flew cover for a Navy SH-2
Delta, which was their aircraft that had a magnetometer on it. That would be used for, in
the Navy, to find submarines, but what we did was they used it to find large caches of
weapons because it would have a magnetic anomaly. And those caches tended to be right
there near the border, so we’d be trucking up and down the border and the guys are
shooting at us and we couldn’t shoot back, so it was—and then eventually, we did get the
opportunity to go into Cambodia when Nixon sent us in.
BF:
Any other stories you’d like to share?
TO:
Well, yeah. So there is one. I was shot down when I was trying to cover another 25th
Infantry unit that was—there’s a mountain in the III Corps called Nui Ba Den, which is
about a 3,000-foot mountain. The rest of the ground is like 10 or 15 feet above sea level,
and then you got this 3,000-foot mountain sticking up, so it’s a pretty prominent thing.
And the U.S. owned the top. We had a radar and radio transmission station, and then we
kind of owned the jungle around the bottom of it. And then the thing was completely
interlaced with tunnels, and the Viet Cong were in the tunnels. And so every once in a
while, the 25th would decide that they were going to go attack this mountain, and they—
this particular day, they sent a group out and they attacked it. And when they did, they
got into contact, so they called the Cobras to come fire support.
So I was with a Pink Team. I had an OH-6 with me and myself. And I contacted the
ground commander, and the guy’s telling me [unintelligible 00:30:50] shooting. There
was an Air Force-issue FAC above us, which was an OV-10 aircraft flying around above.
Above him was some F-4 Phantoms that were going to try to supply close air support to
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these guys on the ground. And so I called the guy on the ground, and I said, “Hey, the Air
Force wants you to pop smoke.” And the guy on the ground says, “Hey, no way. I’m not
doing that.” And I said, “Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’ll just—I’ll fly over your position and
you tell me when you’re—when I’m over the top of you, and then I’ll tell the Air Force
and they can do it that way.” And he said, “Okay.”
So I flew up. So now this puts me like maybe 250, 300 yards from the mountain, and I
got—I started seeing traces go by the aircraft, and so I transmitted—so I was talking to
the FAC on one radio and the guy on the ground on a different radio. And I called the
FAC up, and I said, “I’m taking fire.” And then I started hearing it. I could feel the
aircraft getting hit. And the next thing was I’m taking hits. And then the next thing that
happened was the engine quit. And I said, “I’m going down. Rotors in the green.” And so
we land. I did another autorotation, just like I did in flight school. Hey, the system
worked twice. That’s—so it’s got to be really good training.
And I got on the ground. We got on the ground, and there was a lieutenant in my front
seat, and he—the instant we hit the ground, he was gone. He just disappeared. And I
grabbed the classified stuff out of the aircraft, and zeroed our classified information and
jumped out of the aircraft and ran over a rice dyke that I—I landed in a—it was a dry
season, so I landed in a rice paddy that was dry. And the next thing that happened was the
OH-6 guy lands—my scout lands next to me and says, “Are you okay?” And I said,
“Yeah.” And he says, “Okay, Six,” Six, which is our CO, “is coming to pick you up.” So
they came and picked us up and away we went. The Cobra—I’d hit a rice—when I
landed, I’d hit a rice dyke and knocked the skids out from underneath the aircraft, but it
just stayed upright. No other damage. And a Chinook came in the same day and hauled it
back.
Thinking back to your previous question, I think I know which mission you were asking
about, if you want to go there?
BF:
Yeah, please.
TO:
So this was when I was a new guy, a new aircraft commander. So the progression was,
when you got in country, you sat in the front seat of the Cobra. You were the gunner, and
you learned the mission. You learned how to talk on the radio. You learned how to
navigate around. You learned the area of operations so you could find your way around
without having to look at a map constantly. And you shot the turreted weapons on the
aircraft. So there was a minigun and a 40-millimeter grenade launcher. Once you went
through that training, then you would get transitioned—or you’d be moved to the
backseat, where you would fly—you physically flew the aircraft. The front seat had a set
of controls. They were side-arm controls like an F-16. As an instructor pilot, they were
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wonderful. I loved flying the Cobra and teaching in the Cobra. It was a wonderful
aircraft. Loved the side-arm controls.
So I got in the back seat, and I was being trained. So this is like—I started flying combat
missions in November of ’69, and in December, they made me an aircraft commander. So
you can—the pressure was always on. And I was an aircraft commander, so now my job
was I was the wingman. I was the number two guy in a gunship formation. I wasn’t
allowed to take—to cover a scout yet because that’s pretty sensitive. You got to be up—
pretty astute at that point. You got to be thinking all the time, covering a scout. So I’m
flying wingman, and we’re going up—the guys—the LRRPs are in contact. We’re a fire
team, so that mean it’s—this is pretty urgent, and this is a pretty big deal. They’ve got
two aircraft. It’s daytime, and we’re heading north and up the main supply route. And so
my job as the wingman was I was to call the artillery people and tell them where I was
going and get clearance to make sure that we weren’t flying through any gun target lines,
so they—or through where the artillery rounds were going.
So I call up the artillery, and I tell them where I’m at, tell them where we’re going, and
they say, “You’re in the middle of a GT line.” So that just scared the ever-loving bejesus
out of me because I’m probably—a week before we’d had a—one of the guys at night
had been hit be a 105 round. Luckily, the round was so new out of the tube or so—it had
an arm, so it just went through as a big bullet through a UH-1. So I was concerned that
these guys could actually hit a helicopter.
So as I’m keying the mic, which is on the stick, I key the mic to transmit to lead that
we’re in the gun target line. I also slammed the cyclic stick hard right and rolled the
aircraft completely upside down. So I’ve got—now I’ve got a Cobra upside down. Well,
helicopters, especially Bell helicopters, are not designed to fly upside down at all. And
once I’m upside down and the world is in the wrong place, that scares me again, so I roll
the aircraft right side up again. And then I think, “Nope, I’m in the gun target line. I got
to do something.” So then I had—I realized—so at that point, I saw lead. He was already
probably 130 or 140 degrees. He was heading—he knew what he was doing. He was
getting out of the way. So I rolled my aircraft upside down, and I did what would be in
the fixed-wing parley a split-S. I did a—and after I did it, I realized, “Oh, I kept a positive
G on the aircraft the whole time.” And that was the secret to the Cobra, was it really
wasn’t—you couldn’t fly at negative G. You had to maintain a positive G on the aircraft.
So I rolled the aircraft upside down, and eventually we exited the gun target line and
went up and did the thing. I think that was the story you were talking about.
BF:
Yes. Yes, it was.
TO:
I was slow, but I’ll get there.
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0038:04
[Personal impact of the Vietnam War]
BF:
How did the Vietnam War change you?
TO:
Like I said, I always thought of it as a job and the most important thing that I could do.
So when I left there, I was on the UH-1 and—[chokes up]—sorry. I remember my
aircraft was right next to us. And I thought I was leaving a job not done. I just felt that it
was—that I was abandoning my other buddies. Sorry. [wipes away tears]
[production talk]
00:38:04
[Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache]
BF:
Did you ever want to travel back to Vietnam after—
TO:
I’m not interested. Like I said, the Army, through their wisdom, made me an instructor
pilot. I came back from Vietnam with 1,200 hours—at that point, 1,300 hours of
helicopter time, which made me more than qualified to be an instructor. And they sent me
to—back to Savannah. So part of flight school was—half of it was at Fort Rucker, and
half of it was—half the class went to Fort Rucker, half the class went to Savannah,
Georgia to Hunter Army Airfield. I went to the Hunter Army Airfield group and went
right from flight school to Cobra school to Vietnam and back—right back to Savannah to
Hunter to teach people to fly Cobras. And then they made me an instructor, and then
within a year of that I was transitioned to be an instructors’ instructor, and I did that for
the rest of my career. So for 18-plus years, I was—no, 19 years, I was an instructors’
instructor of one form or another.
BF:
An instructors’ instructor, that’s impressive. Later you flew the AH-64 Apache attack
helicopter. How did that differ from flying the Cobra?
TO:
So in an—an Apache is—it’s actually—so I flew an A-model Apache. I flew—I was in
what they called the IKPT, which was the Initial and Key Personnel Training. I was one
of the first 13 pilots to fly production aircraft. When I started flying, we had four
helicopters total. Now they’ve got a thousand or something like that. So I was the top of
the pyramid. My job was to train the cadre of people that would teach people to fly the
Apache. And the Apache was a very complex—it had 13 different computers. It had
multiple ways that you interfaced with the—the human interface to the computers was
different depending on if you were talking to the Doppler radar, which was our
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navigation system, or if you were talking to the fire control computer. There was different
ways that you had to enter data into them. So it was a complex and difficult aircraft to fly.
The interesting thing was—well, there were several interesting things. So the Cobra
was—when they built it, it was a VFR aircraft. It had—it never had a VOR, it never had
any instrument navigation equipment in it, so it was never certified to fly IFR, Instrument
Flight Rules. But the Apache was, and it had—the Apache had two engines, and the
Cobra only had one, so that was—that made a significant difference. And the other thing
was is that, like I said earlier, the Cobra couldn’t—if you put everything on it, even the
last models, which was an S-model Cobra—so I started in a G-model, and by the time I
had finished flying Cobras, we were at S, was the model, which at that point was an
antitank aircraft and was designed to fly as close to the ground as possible. But you still
couldn’t carry all the missiles and a full load of gas.
The Apache, I could put all the gas in it I wanted, fill the tanks up. I could put all the
bullets on it I wanted, all the .30-caliber machine—or cannon ammunition on it, all the
Hellfire missiles, and fill up the rocket pods or I could carry 16 Hellfire missiles. And
then I could throw four or five cases of C-rations in the back, and I could throw my duffel
bag in there, and I could throw my ditty kit in there, and I could throw some stuff for the
guys down the line that had asked for something, and I’d still be under gross weight. It
was a fabulous aircraft to fly. It was—unlike the Cobra, it was capable of negative-G
flight. And it was just fantastic.
BF:
Any exciting stories about the Apache?
TO:
Well, so the Apache—for me, the Apache, I was—like I said, I was at the top of the
pyramid and I was towards the end of my career, so I was really teaching instructors to be
instructors—I was teaching—I was actually—ran the platoon that ran—that taught the
instructors to be instructors in Apaches. So we were—so that meant that you had to know
both seats, how they work. A typical line pilot tends to get assigned a particular seat and
that’s it. Apache has two different, very distinctive systems on it. One’s called Pilot Night
Vision, or PNVS. And that Pilot Night Vision System is a monocle that you wear over
your right eye, and it’s essentially—for the aviators, it’s a heads-up display that—but it
does something else. It also projects a FLIR image, an infrared image of the world around
you to your right eye. And so you can look—and it’s tracked by—you’ve got a head
tracker on your helmet, and it—the turret follows your head. The only problem is is that
that turret is—the sensor is not your eyeball here, but the sensor in front of the aircraft,
which is 13 feet in front of you and about two feet down, so it’s a little—you get a little
disoriented when you start moving your head around a lot. But it’s essentially designed to
be instantaneously—when you move your head, that’s where it’s going to look right
there.
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There’s a reticle for the cannon, so I could shoot the cannon off axis of the aircraft, where
in a Cobra, the only way I could shoot the turreted weapons was just to lock them up with
the center line of the aircraft and shoot them straight ahead. So if I spot something—so if
my gunner’s busy shooting in an Apache, if my gunner’s shooting the missiles or
tracking a target with the targeting system, then I can use the cannon for self-defense,
because now we’re flying the aircraft—instead of the 1,500 feet, now the strategy is to fly
as close to the ground as you can to put as many obstacles between you and the bad guys
as you can. The good news is is that you’re shooting a missile that’s got a range in excess
of five miles, so you just sit there and plunk at them and they don’t—the first thing they
know is when something starts blowing up. They don’t have any idea that they’re being
engaged.
So the Pilot Night Vision system has like four modes of symbology on your helmet. You
control that through another button on your cyclic stick. So if you’re at a hover, you’ve
got one set of symbology. As you transition from a hover, then you can switch to a
transitional one where you actually have an attitude indicator. And then there’s a third
mode—or a third and fourth mode where you’re up and away flying. And there’s also a
precision hovering mode, so if you’re in a hover hole where you don’t have a lot of
clearance—the rotor diameter’s 48 feet, so if you’re in a 60-foot-wide hole, you don’t
want to be drifting around. You want to stay put. So there was a method where you could
instantaneously drop a mark and it would—the aircraft could then—through your
symbology, you could keep the aircraft in a very tight position.
The Apache doesn’t have an autopilot. All the helicopters that I flew didn’t have
autopilots. You flew the aircraft 100% of the time. Unlike a fixed-wing, you never let go,
because if you let go, something bad is going to happen. So that was the backseat. So the
guy in the back in an Apache, he’s the driver. He’s driving the helicopter. The guy in the
front has weapon systems that, on the wings, are 2.75 or 70-millimeter rockets that are
the same—those are the same rockets that we used in Vietnam. Different warheads, so
they were a little more effective. And then some—they have a later model that’s got a
little more horsepower in the rocket motor itself.
There was also the Hellfire missiles. They’re a—at that time, they were laser seekers. So
the targeting system had a laser that we put a spot on the target and as long as that spot
was on the target the missile would fly to the target. The TOW missile system, which was
on the Cobras, was a wire-guided missile. Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wireguided. That’s TOW. And so what that meant was I had to put a set of crosshairs for a
target from my sighting station on the target and then keep that crosshairs on the target
until such time as the missile struck the target. And the signals were computed in the
aircraft and sent via two wires to the missile as it was going down range. That missile had
a range of 3,750 meters. That was it. That was as long as the wires. Once the wires broke,
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the missile just—by that time, it wasn’t going very fast and would essentially fall to the
ground.
The Hellfire missile, you can launch it at—there’s several different launch methods. You
can—but the idea is that you could launch a missile and then put a—you could have the
missile lock on before you launched the missile. So you put a spot on the target, launch
the missile, the missile follows the spot to that target. Or you could launch the missiles—
we would practice launching sequentially a series of missiles. And you’d put the spot on
the target. The first missile would go to that spot. Once it impacted, you’d move it to the
next target. So you could become very effective. Sixteen Hellfires would—were very
effective at knocking out tanks. The Hellfire missile was probably twice as big as the
TOW missile.
00:50:39
[Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing]
BF:
Now, after 20 years in the Army, you went on to a second career with Rockwell Collins,
which does cockpit instrumentation systems. What did you do at Rockwell?
TO:
Well, so I went there as an Apache subject matter expert. And what my job was was
human factors. We were trying to figure out how to make it easier to talk to all those
computers and make it one system that you could enter data and it would go across the
aircraft. And we worked with McDonnell Douglas Helicopter, eventually Boeing, to
make that happen on the Apache. And then eventually, later model aircraft, they’ve got—
they had those types of systems.
That was the beginning of my career there. I ended up sort of being a firefighter.
Problems would pop up, and I was able to—the first example that I give is is we were
giving our critical design review to the Army on our Apache system, and I’d been at—
with the company maybe a month, maybe a month and a half, and I’d learned what the
engineers there wanted to do. And we were giving this briefing. There was probably 75
Army guys in the briefing room, a big theater, and the technical director for the aircraft
walks up to me from Rockwell and says, “Hey, so-and-so is—can’t show up. Can you do
this?” I said, “I guess so.” I had no idea what I was doing. But I walked up there, and I
gave them a presentation, and the Army guys all thought that was okay.
And from then on, it was like every time there was a problem, they’d come to me and
say, “Hey, can you do this or can you do that?” So I’ve done some very strange things,
like trying to sell GPS to farmers, back when this was just a concept. We were—
Rockwell was very early in the GPS business, built the very first satellites, and so they
were interested in trying to spread the architecture around and build different systems.
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And so we started outputting GPS on trains so that the train companies could understand
where their engines were, because they didn’t have systems that could transmit back to
them. And we were a radio company, so it was easy for us to figure out how to have a
location—now we knew where the location was, so now it was just a matter of
transmitting it. And then eventually we built—ended up selling systems to bus companies
and police departments so they could follow how buses followed around the cities or
could quickly assist policemen that needed help or those kinds of things. So it was kind
of a very interesting thing. I ran a program to test our system when we started putting the
GPS on the combines for corn harvesting and trying to figure out—how to figure out
yields and stuff like that, and that was pretty, pretty interesting stuff.
And after that, Rockwell decided that we should get back to our knitting and do avionics
and not all these other things. So they sold off that part of the company, and I had to
wander around and look for another job within the company. And I had—my son had
come out to the University of Washington to go to college here, and I’d been assigned to
Fort Lewis at one point during my Army career, and we really like the Northwest, so I
started nosing around to see what was out here. And there was a—at that time, there was
an airplane that Boeing was building called the 767-400, and they needed systems
engineers out here. So I was an engineering manager back in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, where
the headquarters is of the company. So I talked to the manager out here, and I came out
here as a systems engineer on that aircraft. And then within a few months, they promoted
me to be the engineering manager of the facility here, and I was—did that for 13 years.
And we built—after the 767, then I started—got right into what eventually became the
787. We actually started that in 1999.
BF:
Yeah, that was an exciting project, and that lasted over 10 years.
TO:
Absolutely. And it was very interesting because I’d never been around the development
of a commercial airplane before, so that was another learning experience to find all the
things that can happen and all the things that needed to happen. But eventually Rockwell
Collins built all the displays: the pilot controls, the throttle quadrants in the cockpit. And
as the engineering manager, I was the guy that, when the aircraft was going through flight
test, got the call at 3:00 in the morning: “Your system doesn’t work.” And so I would
come down to Boeing Field and the experimental test flight area and go troubleshoot the
airplane to figure out what we needed to do and what engineers I needed to get out here
to get the problem solved. That was the bad news. The good news was, 99% of the time,
the problem wasn’t us. It was some sensor in the aircraft that was not giving us the
information we needed or that system had failed. But it was—my wife always said, “You
were so—you’re so polite on the phone when those guys call. I would be so mad.”
[laughs] But—
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BF:
Part of the job.
TO:
That was part of the job.
00:57:10
[Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner]
BF:
You’re also an A&P mechanic and an aircraft owner. Tell us about that.
TO:
Yeah. So I became an A&P. Probably the best thing I ever did was do—was take the
FAA test while I was still at Northrop to become an A&P. And then like I said, I went to
work for—as an A&P with Brittain Industries, which got me started in avionics. One of
the interesting things is is that I’m very mechanically inclined and I like working with my
hands, but me and electronics don’t get along. So how I ever got into an electronics
company and did as much as I did is hard to believe. Because my first radio was a
Heathkit, and it—when I plugged it in, it smoked and that was it. I said, “Okay, I’m not
doing that again.”
But that’s just—so I was—as an A&P, it was on my Army record, so I ended up also—
besides being an instructor pilot for any unit I went to for Cobras, I also ended up being,
in a lot of units, the maintenance officer for the Cobras, which was a heck of a lot of fun.
I had a tour in Korea where we were—the Cobra was an interesting aircraft to fly because
it changed throughout my career. I flew it for almost—well, for about 14 years, and
during that 14 years the aircraft changed tremendously. It went from an underpowered,
not-terribly-reliable helicopter to a very mature, very deadly, extremely capable
helicopter.
And so in Korea, I was the maintenance officer, and we were—at that point, Bell was
improving the rotorheads, which we’d had a lot of problems in Vietnam with dust getting
into the bearings and the rotorheads, and they were—and the rotorheads were failing.
And helicopter pilots don’t like rotorheads that fail. So they’d come up with a different
bearing design that used what they called elastomeric, which is basically a great big
rubber shock absorber, as opposed to a bearing, so you had a flex in the rubber. And we
put those on the aircraft, and I was astounded when I—the first time I test flew one with
that. And I’d tracked the rotor system, and the aircraft was just so much smoother. And
anytime you could take vibrations out of the helicopters, that just made all the other
systems much more happy.
00:59:54
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[Involvement with The Museum of Flight]
BF:
Now you’re a volunteer at The Museum of Flight and sharing your aviation knowledge.
You’ve served the Museum in many roles. What things have you done at the Museum?
TO:
So I was a—well, I started out as a gallery ambassador, and then I worked in the area that
we called the—ah, crud, lost it—the Airpark. So I worked in the Airpark giving—talking
about all the airplanes we had parked outside, which at the time was the 747, the Air
Force One, there was the 737, and the Connie. And we would control the people as
they’d go through the aircraft. And then in the summertime, I would do—we would bring
our B-17 out of the hangar, park it on the lawn in front of the Museum, and I would give
internal and external tours of the B-17.
And then I started helping repair the 747—restore the 747. The 747 was the very first 747
ever built, was used by Boeing for many, many years as a test platform, and had been
kind of abused in its later life, and so we were trying to restore it back to some semblance
of a working aircraft. And so I got involved in fixing things while it was still outside.
Now that we have the Aviation Pavilion, it’s under cover, so it’s a lot better taken care of
than it was before.
And I got involved in the B-29 as a—working on the pressurization system for that
aircraft. Then I became a docent, and then I ended up on the—with my training
background, I ended up on the Docent Training Committee and helped bring new docents
into our community.
BF:
Very good. Now, we’re aware that you donated items to the Museum’s collection.
TO:
Yup.
BF:
What are the most significant items you donated?
TO:
Well, I think—so I was the executor of my father’s estate, and I think that’s really—from
a historical perspective, I think that’s the jewel in the crown. The stuff that I gave was
that—my personal stuff was my Army career and some of some of the Rockwell stuff.
My father’s stuff goes from the time that he was an engineering student very much like
me. He was an A&P. He wasn’t an A&P, but he was going to school and flying on
airplanes as a test observer and writing down—back then, they didn’t have telemetry in
electronics. They would throw somebody in the back and hand them a piece of paper, and
the guy’d say, “Okay. That was a 1.2.” And he’d write down 1.2. He had no idea what it
meant, but he wrote it down. And so they—that’s the way they gathered data back then.
And this was all before World War II. He became a—went through flight school very
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early in World War II, flew combat missions in B-25s in Alaska, and then spent 30 years
in the military.
When he retired, he was working at the executive offices of the White House as the
communications officer, responsible for putting the radios on Air Force One. So he was
the comms guy for Air Force One and anything that was involved in the President’s
communications. So his stuff is, you know, his—lots of boxes. Lot of stuff.
BF:
What motivated you to donate?
TO:
Well, so I had a—so my dad was a son of the Depression, and as I have learned over the
years, they didn’t throw anything away. I found stuff from—I found receipts from 1940s
that—a stick of gum or whatever. I mean, it was astounding. But he never threw away
any of his—he had boxes and boxes and boxes of his military stuff, and so there’s stuff
like—he worked on projects like the Distant Early Warning Systems for intercontinental
ballistic missiles coming over the poles. He did all kinds of different things like that. He
was very involved in the early missile systems and the early manned missions in some
electronics fashion. So he had a lot of that kind of background, a lot of that kind of
information.
He also wrote an autobiography, and he kind of detailed his flight school experience. And
that kind of got me started in the thing, along with the B-17, was starting to go back and
read about these guys, how they got through flight school and then comparing that to
what my experience in flight school was like. And then here recently, I’ve done a little
reading on the guys that had gone through the Navy flight school, so it’s—and it’s kind
of interesting how they—they all have different flavors, but they—we all end up with
about the same amount of hours and about the—probably the same level of knowledge
when you come rolling out the door.
01:05:47
[Closing thoughts]
BF:
Any last topics we may have missed or that you’d just like to talk about?
TO:
[pauses] I don’t—my experience here at the Museum has been just fantastic. And as you
know, Bruce, unfortunately, I’m leaving to join my family on the East Coast.
BF:
Unfortunately for us, yes.
TO:
So that’s bittersweet. It’s sort of like my thing with Vietnam in that I feel like I’m leaving
without the job being completed and—but it was very pleasurable and a wonderful group
to work with.
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BF:
And any final thoughts you’d like to leave for students or future researchers regarding
your career in aviation?
TO:
Well, I guess I’d like to see people go look at the helicopters. And I realize that I’m kind
of prejudice that way. But I think that the books that I have read tend to glorify it a little
bit, and I think that the vast majority of guys that went over there really worked hard to
make—to support the ground troops, no matter what service they were in. So I’d like—I
think that I’d like to see a little more research. I’d dearly love to see the Museum get
more than just the UH-1 to represent some other facets of the aviation experience there.
We have lots of fixed-wings, but there was a whole group of guys that worked pretty hard
to support everybody.
01:07:42
[Favorite aircraft engine]
BF:
Absolutely. Now, our videographer today has been Peder Nelson. Peder, do you have any
additional questions?
PEDER NELSON: Like, I guess I was intrigued by your early statement about the—of engine
that you worked on with your own personal aircraft or that you like tinkering with pieces.
And I was wondering if there was any—if you had a favorite aircraft engine?
TO:
Well, I’m partial to Lycomings because that happened to be the engine that was in the
airplane. I am much—my experience with helicopters, after the first 100 hours of flight
school, was all with turbine engines. And you’d think, “Well, that means that he really
likes turbines.” But actually, radials and inlines and reciprocating and those massively
complex engines fascinate me. That’s probably why—I just—why I stayed an active
mechanic for so long was because I just—I really liked that and figuring out what’s
wrong, be it a car or an airplane or a boat. I’ve done a little bit of everything.
BF:
Great career. Tom, thank you for taking the time and letting us record this piece of
history from someone who lived it. And thank you so much for your service. We salute
you.
01:09:25
[B-29 restoration project]
BF:
A couple of additional questions from Kelci Hopp [Oral History Administrator at The
Museum of Flight] here.
TO:
Okay. Hey, the best way—I’ll be happy—I can answer questions. I have a hard time
adlibbing, but a question usually—
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�25
BF:
Just two more here.
TO:
Okay.
BF:
Can you talk a little bit more about your work on the B-29 restoration?
TO:
Well, so the B-29 is a very big airplane, and it was very—it’s very complex. There’s a
great group of guys working on it, and so I was just one little piece. And so if I may tell a
quick joke—and it probably won’t go over very well, but—so this kid asks his father,
“What do you do as an engineer?” And the dad says, “Well, I design airplane parts.” And
so they’re out at the airport, and the kid says, “Well, Dad, is that the airplane you
designed?” And he says, “No, no, no. I just designed a piece on the front landing gear.”
And the kid says, “Well, where was that?” He says, “Oh, that’s in that front one, right
there in front.” “Oh yeah, Dad, did you design that?” And the kid says—and the father
says, “No, no. You see halfway up, there’s a bracket on the left-hand side there?” And the
kid says, “Yeah, yeah. Did you design that?” And he says, “No, no, no, I didn’t design—
see that bolt that’s holding that bracket?” “Yeah, yeah.” “That’s what I designed.”
And so that’s sort of what I did on the B-29. It was a little piece of a very big airplane.
And the airplane was—after the war—so it flew in the war, flew—it bombed Japan, it
then came back and was converted to a tanker. Well, when they converted it to a tanker,
they stripped a whole bunch of stuff out of it to make it lighter. Just like the Cobra, they
were trying to carry as much gas as they could and anything that they didn’t need they
didn’t put in it. So they ripped out most of the pressurization system on the aircraft. And
so what we’re trying to do is return it to what it was like when it flew over Japan, and so
that meant it needed a pressurization system. Well, there’s valves missing. There’s
ductwork missing. There’s all kinds of stuff like that.
So I said, “Okay, I’ll work on the pressurization system.” And so I started on it, and there
were a couple of valves, and so I did things like—I literally got pictures of the valves,
and then I got some drawings of the valves, and I made these valves in my garage. So
they look just like what was on the airplane, but please don’t run any hot air through them
because they’re all made of papier-mâché and stuff like that. And then I put the ductwork
in, and I put some of the insulation stuff. So when you—most of the stuff was done—it’s
actually in a part of the airplane that hardly anybody ever sees because it’s actually up
over the wing in the bomb bay. So you have to go inside the bomb bay, in the aft bomb
bay, and look forward to the wing, and there’s this valve. And eventually there’ll be some
cabling and other stuff up there that will indicate it’s just part of that pressurization
system that ran through the whole airplane.
01:12:44
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�26
[Overlap with his father’s military career]
BF:
All right. And the second question is did you and your father’s military careers overlap at
all?
TO:
Yes. Not a lot. The funny story there was I was—so I was in flight school, and we got a
Christmas break. So that meant I’d gotten through the warrant officer training and now
we were actually starting to fly—or we were scheduled to fly in January. And so I got a
Christmas break. And I was married, so I went back to Washington, D.C. to my mom and
dad’s house. And my wife was there. And my dad had some official military function. So
I’m—at that point, I am an E5—rank wise, I’m an E5.
And they—my mother or my dad—somebody wanted something taken to my dad. So,
“Tom, go do it.” So I said, “Okay.” So I jump in the car, and I go down to wherever this
thing is. And I walk into this place, and the first person I bump into is like a three-star
and the next guy’s a four-star. And I’m going, “Holy mackerel. What am I doing here?” I
wasn’t in uniform, but I was still very intimidated by all of this. And kind of sheepishly
went up and handed my father’s—whatever the piece of paper or whatever he needed.
And then I went off—went back to flight school at the end of that.
I can’t remember the date that he retired, but it was only like a year or two overlap. There
wasn’t a lot. I do remember he was in uniform when I graduated from flight school,
which would have been in July of ‘69.
BF:
Any last questions? All right. As they say in the business, “It’s a wrap.”
TO:
Thanks. Thank you. It was a pleasure.
BF:
Thank you.
01:14:54
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
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<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Olsson_Thomas.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Thomas, Olsson W.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Florsheim, Bruce
Biographical Text
<p>Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is a Vietnam War veteran who served with the United States Army as a helicopter pilot and flight instructor. He was born in the mid-1940s in Kentfield, California to Ward T. Olsson and Wilma E. Olsson. His father was a career officer with the U.S. Air Force, and his mother was a housewife and hospital volunteer.</p>
<p>After graduating from high school, Olsson attended the Northrop Institute of Technology (California), where he studied aircraft maintenance engineering. While in college, he became a certified A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and worked for Brittain Industries helping to install aircraft autopilot systems.</p>
<p>In July 1968, knowing that he would likely soon be drafted, Olsson opted to join the U.S. Army and become an aviator. He completed training at Fort Polk (Louisiana) and Fort Wolters (Texas), learning to fly on the Hughes 269 helicopter. He next underwent training in the Bell AH-1 Cobra at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia) and was deployed to Southeast Asia. Over the course of his combat tour, he flew a mix of attack, visual reconnaissance, ground support, and evacuation missions and accumulated over 1,300 hours of helicopter flight time.</p>
<p>Returning to the United States, Olsson served the rest of his military career as an instructor pilot in the Bell AH-1 Cobra and Hughes AH-64A Apache. He retired in 1988 at the rank of Chief Warrant Officer 4. As a civilian, he worked for Rockwell Collins as a human factors engineer and for the Boeing Company as a systems engineer and engineering manager. His projects at Boeing included the 767-400 and 787 Dreamliner.</p>
<p>Olsson’s volunteer work at The Museum of Flight includes serving on the Docent Corps and participating in the restoration efforts of the Boeing 747 and Boeing B-29 Superfortress. He also donated materials to the Museum from his and his father’s military careers.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Olsson_Thomas
Title
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Thomas W. Olsson oral history interview
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Thomas W. "Tom" Olsson and interviewer Bruce Florsheim, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, October 24, 2018.
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
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2018-10-24
Coverage
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Cambodia
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Bell AH-1 Cobra Series
Boeing Company
Engineers
Helicopter pilots
Hughes AH-64A Apache
Hughes OH-6 Cayuse (Type 369H) Family
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Rockwell Collins (Firm)
Thomas, Olsson W.
United States. Army
United States. Army. Infantry Division, 25th
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 14 min., 54 sec.) : digital
Rights
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In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Vietnam War veteran Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is interviewed about his military service as a helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his combat tours in Southeast Asia flying the Bell AH-1 Cobra gunship and describes his later assignments as a flight instructor for the Cobra and the Hughes AH-64 Apache. He also touches on his post-military careers with Rockwell Collins and the Boeing Company and on his volunteer work at The Museum of Flight.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Early aviation experiences -- Favorite aircraft -- U.S. Army training -- Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot -- Personal impact of the Vietnam War -- Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache -- Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing -- Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight -- Closing thoughts -- Favorite aircraft engine -- B-29 restoration project -- Overlap with his father’s military career
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/81580fb2a36a5863fbd2cbc3b3f1f19c.mp4
3b49107dae387b5dba57b4f6ea82431a
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/f05f86d63dbe2f8165cfca472bc22ff8.pdf
148eabbaae5850d9fa63c60895447d8c
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Calvin Kam
Interviewed by: Ted Lehberger
Date: April 29, 2018
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran Calvin H. Kam is interviewed about his military service as a helicopter
pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his wartime experiences flying the Bell UH-1
Huey with the 240th Assault Helicopter Company and his postwar service with the Washington
State National Guard Helicopter Division. He also touches on his later teaching career in
Washington State. Topics discussed include his training and service history, his time stationed at
Fire Base Bearcat (Vietnam), his other assignments with the Army and Washington State
National Guard, and his career in public education.
Biography:
Calvin H. Kam is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a helicopter pilot with the United States
Army. He was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, circa 1946. His father, Yun Yau Kam, was a supply
officer who served with the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II and with the U.S. Air
Force during the Korean War.
From a young age, Kam was inspired by his father’s military service to pursue a military career
of his own. He served in JROTC (Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps) at McKinley High
School (Honolulu, Hawaii) and ROTC at Eastern Washington University (Cheney, Wash.).
While in college, he majored in biology and earned his teaching degree. He also participated in
the ROTC flight program, where he learned to fly fixed-wing aircraft.
After receiving his commission in 1969, Kam attended Artillery School at Fort Sill (Oklahoma),
then was assigned to helicopter flight training. He completed primary training at Fort Wolters
(Texas) and advance training at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia). Deployed to Vietnam in 1970,
Kam served as a pilot with the 240th Assault Helicopter Company, stationed at Fire Base
Bearcat. His missions involved flying the Bell UH-1 Huey for troop insertion and extraction
from landing zones. At the conclusion of his tour, he had logged a total of 507 combat hours.
Kam returned to the United States in 1971 and was assigned to Fort Rucker (Alabama) as a
teacher for ground school instructors. He was honorably discharged in 1973 at the rank of
captain. Relocating to Spokane, Washington, he began his career as a public school teacher and
joined the Washington Army National Guard Helicopter Division, which he served with for eight
years. Afterwards, he moved to Western Washington and worked as a school administrator in
Kent and as Human Resources Director for Northshore School District. Following his retirement
from public education in 2001, he joined the Education Department at City University. As of
2018, he is an active member of The Museum of Flight’s Docent Corps.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�3
Interviewer:
Ted Lehberger is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps and has worked in
broadcast, cable, and satellite television operations for over 40 years. He holds a degree in
Communications and Political Science from the University of Washington, as well as an FCC
license and a private pilot’s license. He also served in the United States Army Security Agency
in the late 1960s and early 1970s as a Morse Code Intercept Operator.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Mark Jaroslaw, Jaroslaw Media.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
High school and college years ........................................................................................................ 8
Joining the U.S. Army .................................................................................................................. 13
Helicopter training ........................................................................................................................ 14
Deployment to Vietnam ................................................................................................................ 17
Assignment to Fire Base Bearcat and explanation of fire bases ................................................... 18
Helicopter mission logistics .......................................................................................................... 19
Mission to investigate a downed Loach ........................................................................................ 22
Return to the United States ........................................................................................................... 24
Thoughts on teaching methods ..................................................................................................... 25
Leaving the Army and service with the Washington State National Guard ................................. 26
Teaching career in Western Washington ...................................................................................... 28
Involvement with The Museum of Flight ..................................................................................... 29
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�5
Calvin Kam
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
TED LEHBERGER: This is The Museum of Flight’s Oral History Program. Our guest is Mr.
Calvin Kam. Calvin spent his earliest years on Johnston Island, the site of America’s first
atomic atmospheric tests. Completing public schooling in Honolulu, Calvin enrolled in
ROTC while still in high school and later in college. After graduation, he became an
Army officer and subsequently a helicopter pilot, flying the UH-1 Huey in Vietnam.
Honorably discharged in 1973, he flew with the Washington State National Guard
Helicopter Division.
Calvin has a second career in education, seven years teaching math and science in
Spokane, Washington, 16 years in public school administration in Kent, Washington,
among others. When not freelance instructing, Calvin is a Friday morning docent. The
date is April 29th, 2018. The interviewer is Ted Lehberger. We are very pleased to have
you with us tonight, Calvin.
CALVIN KAM:
Yeah.
TL:
Can you please state your full name?
CK:
Yeah. Calvin [Hun He?] Kam.
TL:
Okay. And you’re Asian descent?
CK:
Correct. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
TL:
Okay. In your bio, you mentioned your father. And he seemed to have a very, very
interesting career and begat you. Can you tell us about your early life?
CK:
Oh, sure. I like to answer that by answering a question that a lot of people ask me. And
that is, “Why did you join the Army?” Because I volunteered for the military, and I
believe it was because of the influence my father had on me. From my earliest memory, I
was—my dad was in the military. So he—
TL:
Was he an officer?
CK:
Yes. He was an officer. He was one of the—I would say he was on the leading edge of a
Chinese-American being an officer in the military. I did a little research on the history of
Chinese-American officers, and the earliest officer was back somewhere around in 1873.
And it wasn’t until 40 years later that we had a second Chinese-American officer.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�6
TL:
Was that your father?
CK:
Ah, no, it wasn’t him, because he graduated from college in 1939 and he was in advanced
ROTC, so he got his commission at that time. But he was in the first group of ChineseAmericans to become officers in the Army.
TL:
That is pathfinding. Was there much resentment to have an Asian as a commanding
officer?
CK:
No, he never—from my memories, I don’t remember any in—while in the military, I
don’t remember any animosities. And I will go with what—my mother. She really had
good—I mean, she really enjoyed the military life, which meant she must have been
treated right because—and she was Japanese. She wasn’t Chinese.
TL:
I see. So Asian heritage on both sides?
CK:
Yeah. I think the military saw her as an American.
TL:
I see. And they married prior—obviously prior to World War II?
CK:
Ah, correct. Yeah, they married two years before the war started.
TL:
Were they—now, a lot of your schooling we’ll get into was in Honolulu. Were they on
the mainland or were they in Honolulu?
CK:
They were in Honolulu.
TL:
I see. So most of your growing up was in the Islands then?
CK:
Yes, all except for the year that I was at Johnston Island.
TL:
I see. So do you have any brothers or sisters?
CK:
Yes, I have one brother and one sister, both of them older than I am.
TL:
I see. So you’re the youngest?
CK:
Right. [laughs]
TL:
So Johnston Island, for those who don’t know, has a pretty interesting background. How
did you get there? And let’s talk about Johnston Island.
CK:
Okay. After World War II, my dad was out of the service for maybe about—I’m going to
say about three years. And when it looked like we were going to go to war with Korea, he
was called back into the service.
TL:
Into the Army?
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�7
CK:
Into the—well, at that time, it had now changed to the Air Force, because he was in the
Army Air Corps during World War II as a supply officer. But rather than sending him to
Korea, they sent him to Johnston Island, which is an atoll in the south—about 800 miles
southwest of Honolulu. And it’s a refueling stop, so it was where planes were—all kinds
of planes would refuel on their way to the South Pacific. And so that’s where we spent
our—he spent a year of that conflict, was on that island. And the island is only one mile
long and a half a mile wide, so it’s not a big island.
TL:
Well, it has a history of being what they call a guano island.
CK:
Hm-hmm [affirmative], yeah. And guano, if my memory is correct, is used for fertilizer.
[laughs]
TL:
Yes.
CK:
Yeah. It’s the droppings of the seagulls.
TL:
That’s right.
CK:
So, yes, it was—they mined that island before the military got to it.
TL:
And Johnston Island also played a large part in nuclear atmospheric testing as well, did it
not?
CK:
That’s correct. That’s where they launched the missile with an atomic warhead on it into
the atmosphere.
TL:
Before?
CK:
It was in the late ‘50s that that happened. And matter of fact, I remember that because I
was still on the island of Oahu when that went off.
TL:
What did you think about that? I mean, sidetracking a little bit, but basically they were
blowing holes in the atmosphere and polluting our—with radiation, were they not?
CK:
We found that out afterward. We didn’t realize we were going to—not “we.” I didn’t
know what was—I was still in junior high school at the time.
TL:
On Johnston Island?
CK:
No, I was on Oahu at the time. Because this was in the late, late ‘50s that that went off.
When it went off—it was after it went off that they realized they blew a hole in the ozone
layer at that time.
TL:
And polluted the atmosphere for a certain amount of time.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�8
CK:
Right, yeah.
TL:
So as a child, on your bio, you went to kindergarten on Johnston Island?
CK:
That’s correct.
TL:
And that’s where you saw your first air—a lot of airplanes then?
CK:
Right. That’s where I fell in love with flying. People want to—“Why did you want to be
a pilot?” I always wanted to be a pilot. And I still remember—and my sister always
reminds me of this—I would sit on the—because the island is only a mile long and a halfmile wide, the landing, the run—the taxiway was on one side, and the runway was on the
other side, and I’d always sit at the taxiway side. And the pilots, as they were taxiing for
refueling, I’d always wave at them, and they’d always wave back at me.
And the mess hall where—the only restaurant, if you want to call it, on the island was the
airfield. And every once in a while, I’d go out to the airplanes, and the pilots would let
me into the airplane, sit me in the seat of the plane, and I’d be able to play with the
controls and all that. And it was at that time—my sister keeps on reminding me—that I
would always say, “I’m going to be a pilot.” [laughs] So I think that’s where it came
about.
TL:
That’s where it was born.
CK:
Yeah, I’ve always wanted to be a pilot.
TL:
So after kindergarten, your father was rotated or re-stationed back to the Hawaiian
Islands?
CK:
Right. He was—went back to Hickam Field, spent—oh, I’m going to say he was in the
service for about another five years, because I remember it wasn’t until I was in the
fourth grade that he got out of the military. But he still stayed in as a Reservist.
TL:
I see. In supply?
CK:
In the supply, yeah.
00:08:04
[High school and college years]
TL:
And you went to the public schools in the Hawaiian School District?
CK:
Correct. Right. I graduated from McKinley High School.
TL:
I see.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�9
CK:
And McKinley was—in those days, McKinley had a three-year ROT—two-year required
ROTC, and the third year was voluntary.
TL:
Let me ask you two questions here. First off, what were your main interests when you
were in school?
CK:
In school? You know, I did think—I always held pilots way up there on the food chain,
so to speak. So while I was in school, I thought I would be an aircraft mechanic, so
through high school I was kind of gearing myself up for being an airplane mechanic. And
it wasn’t until my senior year I decided, “Well, you know what? I can go to college and
become an officer.” So that’s when I changed my focus and started gearing up for—
TL:
But what were you—so you were technically inclined. Was math and science part of your
interests at the time?
CK:
No.
TL:
No?
CK:
No, not even close. I did not get interested into—well, I started—after I graduated, I went
to college and I took a class of biology—oh, excuse me, zoology. And that’s when I fell
in love with science, is taking zoology.
TL:
Natural science, in a way?
CK:
Right—no. Well, it was—zoology is an animal science. But I ended up liking the
biology, animal and plant science. So I ended up majoring in biology in education,
because I decided I’ve got to do something with this thing and might as well teach as
well.
TL:
Oh, I see. So your teaching, which you’ve done later, actually began at that time in high
school?
CK:
In high school. Right.
TL:
I see. And also the question of the ROTC—we spoke to a lot of docents that, you know,
were—at one time, ROTC was a required subject for male students. Is that true?
CK:
That is true. Now, in high school it was required for two years. In college, at the college I
was at, it was only required for one year, I think.
TL:
Is that still true?
CK:
No, I think it’s all voluntary now.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�10
TL:
All voluntary now. And so did you enjoy ROTC? What was it like to be in high school
and college in the ROTC?
CK:
No, I really enjoyed it. In fact, when I was in high school, I think this might have been—I
should have given this answer earlier—is that I was always intending on going into the
military. Because my dad was in the military—you know, he was the main reason, I
think, I thought my career path would be military. And my teaching certificate was just
because I needed something to accompany the biology degree. And you could not major
in ROTC, so my—even in college, my goal was to get a commission.
TL:
I see.
CK:
And as luck would have it, the university I went to had a flight program.
TL:
Where did you go to school? At what university?
CK:
Eastern Washington University.
TL:
Oh, so you came back to the mainland and went to Eastern Washington?
CK:
Right. I came here to go to school.
TL:
I see. I see.
CK:
And that’s where I started to fly, was in college.
TL:
For people that are not really familiar with ROTC—we’ve heard the term—kind of
describe what it is like to be an ROTC cadet.
CK:
Okay. The first two years is basic military history, the culture of the military. You don’t
really get heavy duty into tactics or anything of that nature. It’s mainly just to understand
what the military is about. But when you go into your junior and your senior year, that’s
when it gets more technical. You start studying the history, the Civil War, some of the
tactics used in the Civil War, learning more about the different branches of service—
Artillery, Infantry, the medical branches, and so on. You learn more about the in-depth
things.
TL:
And you also have your so-called major? At that point do you start to really think about
this is—I want to go here and there or do this or that?
CK:
Yeah, that’s kind of an interesting question, because this kind of all blends into my
college as well as my desire to be a pilot. When I first started college, I didn’t know what
I wanted to major in. So I went to the counseling office and I took an interest test. And
when I went to get my results, the counselor says, “You know, I really can’t tell you what
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you want to be or what you should major in because the test you took shows that you’re
extremely immature.”
So I says, “That’s kind of interesting. Why would this test say that?” And the counselor
says, “It’s because it says you want to be a pilot. And anybody who says they want to be
a pilot usually shows immaturity to that.” So I says, “Okay.” So I went off and I took the
zoology class and ended up majoring in zoology, but still went through ROTC and went
through the flight program.
TL:
I see. So let’s—in your bio you mentioned you were on the rifle team for high school and
college. Tell us about that.
CK:
Okay. And that, I go back to my father again. He was on the college rifle team when he
was there, ROTC college rifle team. And at home I would see—he would have some
medals around that he had won. And so our family—and he was a big hunter in Hawaii,
too. They do—they did import axis deer there.
TL:
Oh, they did?
CK:
Yeah. And there’s pheasants that they imported there.
TL:
How about boar? Did they bring boar?
CK:
Boar was naturally there already, brought by the Polynesians. So I have always been
raised around firearms. So while I was in high school, they had a high school rifle team.
So I joined the rifle team, shot—it was a .22 small-bore team. And then when I went
into—I really enjoyed it. And then when I went into college, I shot for the ROTC team
for four years there. And luckily, it was—you could letter in—
TL:
Oh, really?
CK:
Yeah. So I could get a college letter and the sweater and all that.
TL:
Were you at 100 yards?
CK:
Oh, no. Fifty feet.
TL:
Fifty feet?
CK:
Yeah, small-bore.
TL:
I see, small-bore. So what made the jump from the Hawaiian Islands to Cheney and
Eastern Washington University?
CK:
Okay, that’s—we lived just below the University of Hawaii. And for extra money, my
dad would rent one of the rooms in our house to college students. So one year we rented
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the—and coeds. There were three female coeds, and they were from Pasco, Washington.
And they were telling me how great Pasco was, how beautiful the country was, the
Columbia. Now, you have to remember, I’m from Hawaii.
TL:
I was going to say—not to interrupt you—but had you ever been to the mainland prior
to—
CK:
Yeah, I was there before, but not to this area. Okay? So how beautiful it was and all that.
So I thought I’d like to go to school in Washington. So my first quarter was at Pasco
Community—at Columbia Basin Community College. And it wasn’t quite what I thought
it was going to be, picturesque-wise. And so my roommate says, “Well, you have to
come to Spokane with me because—for Thanksgiving. And while we’re there,” he says,
“I have to stop off at Eastern Washington…”—at that time it was Eastern Washington
State College—“…to visit some friends.” And I liked the campus, and I transferred the
next year.
TL:
I see.
CK:
And I met my wife in Spokane, so—by the way, this year is our 50th-year anniversary.
TL:
Oh, congratulations.
CK:
Yeah. And so then I just stayed in Spokane.
TL:
On a personal—is your wife Asian?
CK:
Yes, she’s Japanese.
TL:
She’s Japanese.
CK:
American-born—I mean, a Continental States-born Japanese.
TL:
And Eastern Washington had a flight program, too, didn’t it?
CK:
Right. And that was probably the major reason why—well, besides my wife—is I stayed
there, is because it had a flight program.
TL:
And you were in the ROTC program there at Cheney?
CK:
Correct. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
00:17:08
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[Joining the U.S. Army]
TL:
And so tell us a little bit about your schooling, how it worked in with the flight program
and how that all came about that you ended up as an Army officer. Kind of go through
that for us, please.
CK:
Oh, okay. So in order to—like I said, I always wanted to be a commissioned—if I’m
going to go in, might as well go in as an officer. And if I’m going to go in, I might as
well go in as a pilot, because I’ve always wanted to be a pilot. And throughout the whole
time—the ROTC, in those days, for flight program you had to volunteer to be a pilot.
TL:
What years are we talking about roughly here?
CK:
We’re talking from 1960—I started ’66, because I had to declare when I was a
sophomore, so about 1966 and graduated in the winter of 1969. And I had—well, I’ll tell
that story why I was a quarter later here. But you had to volunteer to be in the military
for—to be a pilot. And you had to volunteer to go to Vietnam, because the Vietnam War
was still going on at that time.
TL:
Oh, it was just heating up.
CK:
Yeah. So the same paper that I signed to volunteer to be in the military was the same
paper I volunteered to go to Vietnam at that time. So as far as the two went, they were—
they all occurred at the same time, but the BA degree and the zoology—the biology
degree and teaching degree, that to me in my mind was secondary to getting my
commission. Because my ambition was to get in the military, and I thought at the time I
was going to make it a career, a 20-year career.
TL:
So when you graduated from Eastern Washington then, you knew you were on your way,
number one, to Vietnam?
CK:
Yeah. We—I knew that.
TL:
So leaving—and then you met your wife and your family, what—did you start a family at
that time as well?
CK:
No, I did not start—my wife got pregnant when I was on R&R in Vietnam. And so we
didn’t start our family until—well, my son was born a month—two months after I
returned from Vietnam.
TL:
I see. One thing of interest to me is that you had mentioned in your bio that you were—
went to Artillery School. And then after that you got your—you started to fly helicopters.
CK:
Right.
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TL:
How does that work with the Army? How do they figure things out there?
CK:
It’s different in those days than it is today. Today, there is an aviation branch. But when I
went in, there was no aviation branch, so you had to have an initial branch to go into. It
could have been anything. It could have been infantry. It could have been the Medical
Corps or what have you. And they just assigned me the Artillery. So I had to go to
Artillery School first at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, become—get my MOS as an Artillery
officer and then go to flight school.
TL:
I see. So you never really thought that you were going to command an Artillery group?
CK:
No.
TL:
But it was just—you needed to have that behind you?
CK:
Yeah. We had to have that, yeah.
00:20:26
[Helicopter training]
TL:
So go ahead and tell us about what it’s like to learn to fly a helicopter.
CK:
[laughs] It was—yeah. I knew it was going to be different, but I didn’t realize how
different it was going to be, because I—now, remember I said I was flying when I was in
college in ROTC.
TL:
Fixed-wing airplanes?
CK:
Yeah, fixed-wing aircraft. But with a helicopter, it’s entirely different. The best
description for anybody who is trying to learn how to hover, it’s like wrestling with an
octopus, because your hands—your two feet are working the pedals, your hands are
working the collective and the throttle, and you’re cycling.
TL:
Can you explain those controls again for us?
CK:
Okay. The pedals are anti-torque. They control—
TL:
What you’d call yaw?
CK:
Yeah, the yaw of the aircraft. The collective puts pitch in the rotor blades, giving the
helicopter ability to—I guess you would say—it is pitch in a way, but it’s not. It’s power,
going up and down. And hooked onto the collective is the throttle. So anytime you pull in
collective, you have to remember you’re putting a load on the engine, so you have to roll
throttle on. So you have to coordinate all that, you know, as—and to keep the RPMs in
the green. So it takes a while to listen to the engine and be able to tell that you’re still in
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the green, rather than always looking down at the tachometer. And then at the same time
you’re pulling power in, it’s putting torque on the body of the aircraft, which is—like you
say, is a yaw. And it starts swinging the nose, so you have to step left pedal to keep the
nose pointing straight. So now, just to bring it to a hover, pulling in power, rolling on
throttle, stepping left pedal.
TL:
And you have a stick as well, too?
CK:
Yeah, I haven’t even talked about that yet. [laughs] You have to be able to hover. And
hovering is like standing on a ball, at the top of the ball and just staying on the top of the
ball. Because that’s basically what you’re doing on a hover, is that you are hovering on a
cushion of air that the plane—the helicopter wants to slide off of.
TL:
Oh, man.
CK:
So the collective, you’re just finding that spot on the ball that’s going to keep you on
there.
TL:
Keep you in hover?
CK:
Yeah.
[production talk]
[scene transition]
TL:
So getting back to learning how to hover. And to me, that would be a hard thing for me.
And you were just—go ahead and go and talk to us about that again, how personally—
and your instructor, how he handled you.
CK:
You know, I still remember our initial briefing when we went to flight school, is they say
we’ll never forget our instructor’s name. And that is true. I still remember his name:
CW2 Johnson. And I have to say he was the most patient individual, because I would
have literally killed somebody like me trying to hover—teach someone to hover an
aircraft. I could not keep that helicopter in the square that we were supposed to do it. I
was on about my fifth hour of trying to learn how to do it, and I couldn’t do it. Straight
and level flying was a piece of cake. Turns, landing, all that. But bringing it to a hover,
couldn’t do it.
And I still remember his words to me. He says, “One day you’re going to come out here
and you will just hover. You will just find that button, your hover button, and you will
learn how to hover.” And he was right. At about seven hours I came out one day, and I
was hovering. I just found it, just knew where it was.
TL:
That’s great. Was there a high washout rate, though?
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CK:
Most people washed themselves out before they got washed out. I cannot remember
anybody washing out, but I do remember people dropping out.
TL:
Because why?
CK:
The first group of people that dropped out was being afraid of flying. Flying a helicopter
is not like flying a fixed-wing. In a fixed-wing, you’re sitting there with doors on, and
you feel like you’re in a car. Now, flying in a helicopter, because we were flying in the
summertime, it was hot, so they took the doors off. So imagine this chair right here on the
edge being 2,000 feet above the ground, and there’s nothing there. You’re just sitting
there, and you’re looking straight down from right there. And a lot of people just
couldn’t—you know, couldn’t take that.
TL:
Something as simple as that?
CK:
Yeah. So we had a couple of people drop out because of that. And the other one, after a
while, just the flying got to them.
TL:
I see. But the Army needed helicopter pilots?
CK:
Correct. Right.
TL:
So where did you take your initial training at?
CK:
Primary training was at Fort Wolters. It was in Texas right near Dallas-Fort Worth, a
great place to be for six months, next to Dallas-Fort Worth. And my advanced training—
for advanced training, you either went to Hunter-Stewart, which was in Georgia, or you
went to Fort Rucker, which was in Alabama.
TL:
Is that where you were introduced to the Huey, in your secondary training?
CK:
Correct. Right. We didn’t get into a Huey till I went to Hunter-Stewart in Georgia. We
didn’t even set foot into the Huey until then. Our first part of that—and it was called
advanced training. So the first part of advanced training, we flew OH-13s for instrument
training. And that’s where we learned instrument flying. And then after we got our
instrument ticket punched, we ended up transitioning to the Hueys.
TL:
The instrument in a helicopter—you don’t think about instruments in helicopters too
much, but what kind of—what did you have to do? Did you have to shoot approaches or
what?
CK:
Yes. You shoot the same approaches you shot in a fixed-wing.
TL:
An ILS and VOR approaches?
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CK:
ILS, VOR, localizer, NDB approaches. The only one that we didn’t shoot was the
NDB—no, excuse me, the DME.
TL:
DME?
CK:
Yeah. We didn’t shoot DME approaches.
TL:
How long was that that schooling?
CK:
That—the total, I think, was five—we would have done about two months instruments
and about three—another two-and-a-half months instruments, two-and-a-half, three
months tactics, flight tactics with the Huey.
TL:
I see. And then you received your commission or had you had the commission prior to
the helicopter?
CK:
No. I had my commission before that. Other groups of people were called warrant
officers, and they would go—while they’re learning how to fly, it was almost like going
through basic training at the same time. We were like more of a gentlemen’s school.
[laughs]
TL:
I see.
CK:
We were commissioned officers at the time.
TL:
Not to get back to failing, but if a person did not complete the helicopter, would they be
reassigned into another branch of the Army?
CK:
Right. Well, being that we were commissioned officers, we had a branch to go to. So they
would put us back into that branch.
TL:
So in that case—in your case, although it never happened, you might have gone back into
the Artillery?
CK:
Into the Artillery.
00:27:56
[Deployment to Vietnam]
TL:
I understand. And then you had Vietnam. What was that like, to know that you were on
your way?
CK:
Well, you know, there was—it was a little bit of excitement and a lot of fear. You wanted
to know what it was all about. You’d been training for a whole year, and so you now—
you want to go over there and see what it’s like.
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TL:
Did you have a buddy? Did you have a friend—
CK:
Not that went with me. Our whole flight school went to Vietnam at the same time. But
none of my cohort was with me at the—
TL:
I see.
CK:
One of my friends who was a good friend found me in Vietnam and came to our unit one
day. But that was the only one person I saw the whole time.
TL:
So tell us about flying over, processing in, the whole idea of being in Vietnam and kind
of finding your way and what it was all about. Can you tell us about that?
CK:
Okay, yeah. Going over was a lonely process, because it’s not like today where you go
over as a unit. We went over as individuals. So right after flight school, all of us took our
30-day leave home. And from wherever we were in the U.S., from that we would just fly
directly to Vietnam. Some people may have had to fly to San Francisco. But I went to
Hawaii with my wife, and I visited my family there. So I left from Hawaii. And I was off
Hickam Airfield and was aboard a plane of a whole bunch of people I didn’t even know
who they were. Landed in Vietnam—
TL:
Saigon?
CK:
Saigon. Tan Son Nhut Airport—Air Base. And processed in over there, got assigned my
unit, and then just jumped in another helicopter, and they took me to the company I was
assigned to. And so it was a very lonely process. There was—you had nobody with you.
TL:
You had to find your own way?
CK:
Yeah.
00:30:13
[Assignment to Fire Base Bearcat and explanation of fire bases]
TL:
And where were you assigned then in country?
CK:
Okay. I was with the 240th Assault Helicopter Company. We were at Bearcat Fire Base.
TL:
And how big was that?
CK:
It was a pretty good-sized fire base. I’m going to get you close, but not exact. I’m going
to say there was probably seven rifle companies there. There was probably at least five to
six helicopter companies, of which we were one. I do remember there was an Australian
assault helicopter company. There was a Thai assault helicopter company there. And the
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1st Cav was there when I first got there, but they moved out. And there was a couple of
other lift companies there.
TL:
Can you describe what a fire base is as a—and then the Army in total? I mean, the rifle
companies, helicopter—how do those all work as a team to go out and find the enemy?
Can you kind of describe that, please?
CK:
Okay. The large fire bases where they held the helicopter was the largest of them all. And
so the term “fire base” is a very generic term that they use. So like ours was a fire base,
but it was huge compared to what most people think of a fire base as in the movies that
they see. They see a little compound that’s sitting outside with a—oh, what is it—
sandbags around it, a couple of artillery and a couple of little huts, and they envision that
as a fire base.
So how Vietnam War was fought, we had this large fire base where the helicopters—
because you have to have a lot of support there, plus you have to have the rifle companies
that you’re going to be inserting with, they have to live somewhere, so they’re all on this
large fire base. Out in what we called the bush in those days, you find these small fire
bases out there. Those are the ones that you normally see in the movies, Rambo and all
that. And they’re stationed in specific areas dealing with artillery. And so artillery has to
have overlapping fires.
TL:
So they’re artillery support?
CK:
Yeah. So every one of these fire bases had artillery pieces in them. And they would be
able to support each other, should they be attacked, as well as support the troops we’re
putting out there in the field. So the whole area has these small fire bases with
overlapping fires.
TL:
I see. And so, basically, that’s how the form—they would protect the troops by putting in
rounds, by putting artillery rounds?
CK:
Right. Now, if we insert the troops out there, if they need support, we have about two or
three fire bases that could help them out.
00:33:03
[Helicopter mission logistics]
TL:
So let’s talk about the different kinds—they’re all Hueys, for the most part, as far as what
you were flying, but we’ve caught a lot of names were kicked around. You kind of
defined some of the terms of the Huey. The Huey was known as the Iroquois, actually,
was it not?
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CK:
Right. Yeah. The Hueys—I flew what was called Slicks. And the two terms, as far as the
UH-1s were concerned, you either were flying Slicks or you were flying Guns. And so
the Slicks, all they had—I don’t know if you’re picking it up in back of me or not
[gestures to the Bell UH-1 behind him]—Slicks only had the M60 machine guns, two of
them onboard, one on one side and the other. Crew chief operated one and a gunner
operated the other. And the term “Slick” came about is because, in comparison to looking
at a Gun, Guns had big rocket pods off on the sides, as well as some had mini-guns
and/or M60s mounted on. So it was not a clean—if you’re looking at them from the front,
it’s not a clean look. But if you’re looking at a Slick or one of these in back of me, it’s
smooth.
TL:
I see.
CK:
So that’s where the term Slicks came from.
TL:
So what you call a Slick would bring in men and materiel into an LZ?
CK:
Right. Yeah, we could carry—if they’re fully-loaded U.S. troops, you could put six
onboard. If we were hauling Thai troops or South Vietnamese troops, we could put seven
onboard.
TL:
I see. And how about the gunships and then what the medevac—those were also used?
CK:
Yeah, the gunships—a helicopter company was made up of two platoons. Each platoon
had four Slicks to them. Each platoon also had two gunships for them. So the helicopter
company was two lift platoons and one gun platoon. Each one had four. So each—all our
assaults, we always had two gunships protecting us on the insertions.
TL:
So when you went in, then—so it could be said that you had your—they softened them
up with the gunships, you came in with the troops and material, and if anyone was hurt,
then you had your medevac?
CK:
Right. Yeah, if we were—there was what we call hot and cold LZs. So cold LZs meant
there were friendlies on the ground and we weren’t allowed to shoot. If it was—and
we’re given the term “hot LZ,” which means we could go in shooting, so the gunships
would always make one—they would be almost right—just right in front of us. And they
would be—lay down initial fire before we’d get in there. And they would circle back
around, and then they would come in and time it—the second time around, they would
time it so that they are coming in exactly at the same time that we are coming in. So
they’re laying down rocket suppressive fires, and as we are landing, we are also opening
up with the M60s on board there. And then coming on—then we would just come out.
And they would time it so that, when we’d come out, they’re coming out with—kind of
like coming out with us.
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TL:
I see.
CK:
So if anybody is shooting at us from in front, they would be protecting us as we’re
coming out.
TL:
And in the meantime, the troops who have jumped off the helicopter are running for
cover?
CK:
Right, yeah.
TL:
I see.
CK:
And once the troops were jumped off, we had to stop shooting on board the choppers.
TL:
I see.
CK:
And also the gunships would stop shooting unless somebody shot at us.
TL:
So basically, would you say that this was a standard MO? Was this the standard way that
we fought the helicopter war in Vietnam?
CK:
Right. I would say that’s true. It was a search-and-destroy operation. We had to find the
NVA or the VC, then the very—and they usually did that at night with infrared with the
YO-3, which is the reconnaissance aircraft, or it would have been with the Mohawk in
the earlier years, which was a twin-engine turboprop. Or they also had a way of using the
Huey as well. They had what they called a sniffer, and it was an instrument that would
lower at night or whenever they—most of the time it was at night—they’d lower a hose
through the canopy jungle, and it’d sniff out the air for urine. And if it picked up a large
scent of urine, they would—we would put troops in that area, which is kind of interesting,
because in the infrared days of 1960s, it’s not like today. They just saw blobs of red out
there. So I would say half the time they would find monkeys or animals out there. Same
way with the smelling of urine. You couldn’t tell whose urine it was.
TL:
Right. Could have been an elephant.
CK:
Yeah, could be an elephant. [laughs] But then some—other 50% of the time it was
people.
TL:
But then after they determined there was a sizeable group of people there, that’s when
you and the ground troops would come in and do your insertion and the whole thing?
CK:
Right. What we would—normally, how it always worked, we always had one what we
called command-and-control ship up in the air the whole time, guiding us that left
platoons in there. And in the command-and-control was a commander of—usually it was
the commander of the ground troops, was in the command-and-control. So we had two
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platoons. We would pick up a whole company, let’s say, and we would insert them in
different areas all over this operation area to search out this area. As soon as one of them
made contact, we would then pull—pick up the people we had out there, and then we
would bring them to where the fight was in that area there.
TL:
I see. Was that whole thing effective?
CK:
Uh, it was—it was—for the terrain, it was probably about the best effective tactics you
could use. Was it effective? This is where I give credit to the people we were fighting, is I
don’t know how they fought us for so long. I mean, every battle we went into with them,
we won. I can’t think of—I know that there are some that we didn’t fare as well, but I
don’t think there’s any that we actually lost, any big battles we actually lost.
TL:
But did we ever hold ground?
CK:
No, we never held ground. We would take ground, but then we can’t—we’d have to leave
it. And, of course, they would come back in again.
00:40:09
[Mission to investigate a downed Loach]
TL:
What was your most, let’s say, memorable or exciting—what stands out—maybe one
mission in the time you were in Vietnam?
CK:
Okay. There is—now, that is a—I still think about that one mission at night. And it really
wasn’t a mission. It was just a—one event. And we always took turn—none of us always
flew lead. We always alternated the lead aircraft, just as well the—and in my opinion, the
two dangerous positions are either the lead or the last guy.
TL:
Why?
CK:
Well, the lead is—they’ll shoot you down first. You’re the first one. The last guy, you’re
the last guy to go out, and if there’s no troops on the ground then and there’s nobody—
you know, take the last one out coming out.
So I was flying Chock 2, the second position. And it was a Loach, which was a lowobservation helicopter had been shot down. And they wanted us to go into there and see
if there were any survivors. They didn’t know why the Loach went down. The Loach
went down into this hole in the jungle and never came out. Okay.
So it just so happened we were flying for the Special Forces that day, and we had ladders
on our chopper. And our mission was diverted to go and find out what happened to this
Loach. So the first aircraft that—it was a single-ship, obviously, hole. The Cobra was
circling above his—it was a hunter-killer team. A Cobra was circling above. And so we
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had our guns, as well as we had their guns, which was a Cobra. The first helicopter went
down into the hole, and we didn’t hear from them. Normally, we’d time our approaches
so that—they will say, “Coming out,” and the minute they’re coming out, we’d time it so
that we are right behind them, and they’re going to drop right down. We never heard a
word from them. So we’re dropping our speed back and forth, waiting for him to call us
so that we could speed up and get over the hole. When he comes out, it was almost like in
slow motion. The four Special Forces were still hanging on the ladder. They never got
down from the ladder. And not a word came from them. And they just nosed over and
went right back into the hole. And the minute that happened, we knew that they got shot
down. They were shot at.
And so nobody called off our mission. Nobody told us not to go. So we started going
over, and we were just going over the hole, and the command-and-control ship just came
on the radio saying, “Abort, abort, abort.” And so we took off. And what we later found
out is that there was a whole battalion of VC.
TL:
Oh, boy.
CK:
They had landed right in the middle of a battalion of VC. So we lost the four Special
Forces as well as the four crewmembers that day.
TL:
As well as the Loach in the first place.
CK:
And the Loach, too. And there were two on there.
TL:
I see. Well, that’s quite a situation to be involved in. I’d say luck was on your side on that
one.
CK:
Yeah. Yeah. And, like I say, everything is all—to me, everything is all luck. There are so
many times—that was one incident. One incident, you—you never know when you’re
going to be shot at.
TL:
Was that year, the time you spent in Vietnam, would you categorize it as the most
memorable—not memorable, but the main year in your life?
CK:
It’s the one I think of the most, probably, as besides family.
TL:
But that does stick in your mind?
CK:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
TL:
And that operations there, just to put in perspective, how far north of Saigon was that—
were you working?
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CK:
We operated in what was known as the Iron Triangle. So it was—the southern edge of the
triangle was roughly about 50 miles from Saigon. And so we were at least—Iron Triangle
was about 80—excuse me, our base was about 80 miles from Saigon. So we were within
about 20 miles inside the triangle.
TL:
And that was like flatland rice paddies, pretty much?
CK:
It was—flatland’s part of it. A lot of it was a one-canopy jungle.
00:44:49
[Return to the United States]
TL:
I see. And so after your year in Vietnam, you came back to the United States. Can you
tell us about your return to the U.S., please?
CK:
Okay. Yeah, coming back was as lonely as it was going, because when we came back, we
came back as individuals. We did not come back as a group. So I just—when I left the
unit, which was a very—and I was not offended or not, because that’s how everybody
else was treated when they were going back. There was no celebration. There was never a
party. There was nothing.
One day—the night before anybody was going to go home, we’d go into the—our little
bar that we had in our company area, we’d drink with our friends, and people would just
say a casual goodbye. And the next morning we’d just leave on a helicopter to Tan Son
Nhut to catch a flight back. Put your name on a list. You just would look on a list as your
name is—I didn’t recognize—I didn’t know anybody in this waiting area. Just wait for
your name to get to the top of the list, then they call your name out and you board the
plan to go home.
TL:
And how was it like to be back in the U.S.?
CK:
It was quiet. Again, my wife did not know I was—she knew about when I was coming
back, a week or so, but she didn’t know the date or what flight I was coming home on. So
we would land—I landed in San Francisco. And in the debriefing, they would debrief us,
and we were all told to bring one set of civilian clothes with us to Vietnam. And I go,
“Why would I want that?” And now I knew why, is we had to change into our civilian.
We had to take our uniforms off and change into civilian because of the protests and the
antiwar movement that was going on. They would only let us out into the concourse
about 15 at a time, every 10 minutes. So every 10 minutes, 15 of us would go out into the
concourse and then wait for our flight back to Spokane. Called my wife up there, saying,
“Hey, I’m in the U.S. now. I’m on flight so-and-so. I’ll be at the airport at 7:00 tonight.”
So that’s the first word that she had that I was back in country.
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TL:
Did you ever think about that you might be attacked by some protester? I mean, did that
ever enter your mind?
CK:
It never entered my mind on being attacked. Yeah. I had suspicions that maybe there
might be some people that might not be friendly on the protesting side, but not attacked,
not physically attacked. I was never afraid of that.
TL:
Where were you stationed in the United States?
CK:
Fort Rucker, Alabama.
TL:
And what were your duties down there?
CK:
There, I was—because I had my education degree, I was a ground school instructor for
teaching other people to be ground school instructors. So I was in that program, kind of
like a teacher-teacher program.
00:48:04
[Thoughts on teaching methods]
TL:
So the idea that you had had another degree at the—all your military career, in a way,
gave you somewhat of a leg up then over some of your contemporaries? Is that what—
would that be true?
CK:
Oh, I would say that’s true. Yeah. And not only that, but when I got out of the service,
being a methods instructor for the military, it also helped me in my career as teaching. I
took a lot of those skills that I used in the military in teaching in my classrooms.
TL:
Looking back at the military way of teaching anything, would you say that military is a
pretty efficient way to teach?
CK:
Oh, by far, yeah. You know, I tell people that the military takes everybody, and within a
couple of months, they can teach anybody to fix an engine, to fix the helicopter, or to do
something within that short period of time.
TL:
Because what’s the genesis of the way they teach? What do they do?
CK:
Okay. I think there are two parts of that, okay? Number one is that, in order to learn,
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, for us educators, the lowest level is being physically
secure. In other words, I have enough to eat. I have a place to—a shelter over my head. I
have money. I have my healthcare. And the military provides all that first-level of care
for you, so that you can now just concentrate on the academic part of the—you know. So
that’s one part.
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The other thing the military does is all hands-on training. You do something in the
classroom for maybe one hour, but you’ll spend two hours out actually performing the
task. Then once you’re able to perform the task, you come back into the classroom, and
then you learn the next step of what you have to do, and then you actually go out there
and you physically do it. Yeah. It is a very effective training program and very expensive.
TL:
Where did the military get this? Is this through trial and error over the years or what?
CK:
I think it’s—I don’t know where they got it, but I think it’s been there since World War II
in their training.
00:50:26
[Leaving the Army and service with the Washington State National Guard]
TL:
So you decided then not to make the military a career?
CK:
Right. Yeah. And that was kind of an interesting one, is I—after I came back from
Vietnam, I was stationed at Fort Rucker. And you hear about all these things about
people with PTSD.
TL:
Which is?
CK:
Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. And I think that pilots had a heads-up on not getting—
well, not having an effect the rest of their life, because when we came back, we had two
years left. So when we were at Fort Rucker, I was with other pilots and other people, so I
was able to decompress at that time, where these people who were—left Vietnam with
only two years, they were thrown right back—
TL:
You were with likeminded people?
CK:
Right. But I was also a family man. And my wife—and I was just a new father and so on.
And to me, I thought I was adjusting pretty well. You know, I was happy. I was eating
pizza, drinking beer, and laughing and having a good time. And I give my wife credit that
she didn’t—I say this, that she didn’t leave me, because I don’t think I was really that
good of a person at that time. And—
TL:
How so? What was your criticism of yourself?
CK:
I was too critical of everything, of her and of everything. I enjoyed my comrades. I would
go to the officers’ club, had beer after work and wine and what have you. I drank too
much when I was in the military. And I still—the two things that I had to—that changed
my mind about staying in the military, one was I would be going back to Vietnam
because I was coming up on my two years. And number two was that I still remember my
wife once said to me, “I can tell you’re not happy.” And it—you know, cognitively, I
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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thought why would—you know, what’s—then I reflected back on that, and I could see
that I needed to change. And I don’t think I could do it in the military, as well as I don’t
think I would survive another year in Vietnam as a pilot. And so I decided to get out at
that time.
TL:
And then that’s when you began your second career?
CK:
Correct. When I came back—when I got out, luckily I had my teaching certificate. But at
that time in the Spokane area, there were no teaching positions open. And as luck would
have it, Kaiser Aluminum hired me as a planning supervisor there, and so I worked for
four years for Kaiser. But while I was at Kaiser, I was in the—I joined the National
Guards. And my commander was the principal of Sacajawea Junior High School. And I
was always telling him how I would like to get back into education. So one day I’m at
home, and he gives me a call, and he says, “How would you like to be a science teacher
for me?” And so I had to think about it for a while. And I said, “Sure, I’ll come to work
for you.” So, again, it was a military connection that got me my first teaching job.
TL:
When you left the military, what was your rank?
CK:
I was a captain.
TL:
And you had how many flying hours?
CK:
When I left the military, I had—let’s see, three, five—I had around 800 hours, 900 hours.
TL:
So when you were with the Washington State National Guard there in Spokane—
CK:
Right.
TL:
…what were some of—and you were teaching as well?
CK:
Right.
TL:
What were some of the flying that you did? How did you work it out to be—to do both?
How did that work?
CK:
Okay. As a teacher, it was fairly easy, because—mainly because of the summer camps. I
was off as a teacher. Though I had to take classes, I could arrange for my classes to be
off, so it was easy to do the two-week summer camps. The only part that got diff—and
the weekends was not an issue, because teachers aren’t like on shift work, which I was at
Kaiser. It did create a problem with Kaiser Aluminum, because they operated seven days
a week, whereas teachers, I had my weekends, so I was able to get to my weekend drills.
The only ones that was so difficult to get to was that we had to fly at night. And we had
night drills to fly at night. And that became—got to be a little bit of a conflict once in a
while.
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TL:
Were the pilots there more or less like yourself, having served in Vietnam and still had a
lot of recent flying experience? Was that pretty much who you guys were?
CK:
Yeah. All of us were Vietnam veterans at the time. At the time, all of us were Vietnam
veterans. Except for my commander. I’m sorry. My commander was not a Vietnam
veteran.
TL:
And what were some of the missions that you guys may be called upon to do?
CK:
The first couple of years I was with the unit, we were really an assault helicopter
detachment. And so then our mission was mainly training, and we’d work with the
brigade that way. But after that, we picked up—we became a medevac unit. And so all of
us had to go to Fort Sam Houston, become medevac-qualified. And then at—when we
came back, then started picking up missions for the city and—you know. But we had to
be very careful, because there was also at the time a civilian medevac company. And we
had to make sure that anybody who called us had to call them first.
TL:
I see.
CK:
And if they couldn’t do it, then they would let them call us.
TL:
And how long were you flying with them?
CK:
Eight years.
TL:
And then did you decide just to voluntarily stop or—
CK:
Okay. A couple of things, but one of the reasons why I ended up not continuing was I
changed positions. I moved from Spokane, I came to Seattle area, and I became an
assistant principal of a junior high school in Kent. And the time commitment of being a
junior high school administrator, a school administrator, would—and plus, I still had my
son, who was still in—just starting seventh grade. There was a big time commitment
there. Plus, you know, philosophically, after I was in there for a while, I had some
disagreements with some people. [laughs] And I think it might have been a good plan for
just—
TL:
Good time to go?
CK:
Yeah, a good time to go.
00:57:30
[Teaching career in Western Washington]
TL:
So talk a little bit about your career west of—in the western part of the state.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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CK:
Okay. After I got on this side, I was a junior high assistant principal for seven years and
then became a principal again for—let’s see—at least nine years, as an assistant—as a
principal of Mattson Middle—which is called “middle school” today. And then I wanted
to try—by this time, I was very close to being able to retire from education, and I decided
that I wanted to try a central office position before I leave. So I ended up—my last three
years, I was the HR Director, Human Resources Director, for Northshore School District.
And then I was able to retire. And financially, it was better for me to retire and then get
another job, because I’m too young to stop working. So I retired from public education,
then went to work for City University full time.
TL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. And without making a plug for City University, I think a lot of
people don’t realize what that is or the new way of learning online. Can you kind of
describe the online learning and is it as effective as going to a classroom, briefly?
CK:
Oh, yes. City University has—services a unique population of people. And these are
people who are—need to work and still go to school and don’t have the time to go to a
brick-and-mortar. So online fits their time schedule a lot better. Same for the people who
live in these small towns out in the community somewhere. They can’t get to a brick-andmortar, so online is the only way they can get a BA degree.
TL:
And what are you teaching at City U?
CK:
I only teach at—I’m in their Ed Department teaching Education. The first part of my—
when I was working full time for them, I worked in their Teacher Certification Program.
Now I work just with their Principal Certification Program.
00:59:41
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight]
TL:
I see. So with all of that, you’ve decided to join The Museum of Flight. What prompted
you to put some of your valuable time here?
CK:
[laughs] Yeah. My wife is—by the way, my wife of 50 years, so there’s got to be
something there, that we must be able to communicate, but she has no interest in—
TL:
Is she your best friend?
CK:
I would say so, yeah. But she has no interest in airplanes. And plus, I told myself—and I
flew, by the way, just civilian out here at Auburn Air, a fixed-base operator. But I told
myself that at age 65 I was going to stop flying and because—and I can see why the FAA
or whoever it is says, you know—commercial airlines, there is a—because I understand
my eyes are not as good. My hearing is not as good. Neither is my coordination. And I
can tell I’m not as good a pilot at 65 as I was at 40. So I said always—I always said I was
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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going to stop flying at 65. And once I stopped flying, I started missing being around
airplanes. And then I heard about the Docent Program here at The Museum of Flight,
applied, and I love it. That’s one of my highlights of the week, is to come here on
Fridays.
TL:
How long have you been here? When did you—what class were you in?
CK:
Okay. I started about five years ago. I don’t remember what the class number was. But
yeah, I’ve been here for five years, afternoons every Friday.
TL:
And you also donated some artifacts to the Museum, is that correct?
CK:
That is correct, yeah. I had—I love to take pictures, so I donated all my whole collection
of slides that I took in Vietnam and some of the—a few of the orders that I thought would
be of interest to the Museum, such as the orders that sent me to Vietnam and the orders
that sent my—gave my wife permission to fly military if she wanted to to join me in
Hawaii, which she didn’t do. She ended up taking a regular commercial to—it’s more
reliable—to get to Hawaii. And the orders that send me home and a couple of the orders
of medals that I got.
TL:
I see. I see. So at this point in your life, you’re teaching and you’re at the Museum here?
CK:
Right. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
TL:
Okay. And we’re very happy that you spent this time with us and are honored that you
were here. Thank you very much.
CK:
Okay. Thank you.
TL:
Okay.
01:02:27
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Kam_Calvin.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kam, Calvin H.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lehberger, Ted
Biographical Text
<p>Calvin H. Kam is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, circa 1946. His father, Yun Yau Kam, was a supply officer who served with the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II and with the U.S. Air Force during the Korean War.</p>
<p>From a young age, Kam was inspired by his father’s military service to pursue a military career of his own. He served in JROTC (Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps) at McKinley High School (Honolulu, Hawaii) and ROTC at Eastern Washington University (Cheney, Wash.). While in college, he majored in biology and earned his teaching degree. He also participated in the ROTC flight program, where he learned to fly fixed-wing aircraft.</p>
<p>After receiving his commission in 1969, Kam attended Artillery School at Fort Sill (Oklahoma), then was assigned to helicopter flight training. He completed primary training at Fort Wolters (Texas) and advance training at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia). Deployed to Vietnam in 1970, Kam served as a pilot with the 240th Assault Helicopter Company, stationed at Fire Base Bearcat. His missions involved flying the Bell UH-1 Huey for troop insertion and extraction from landing zones. At the conclusion of his tour, he had logged a total of 507 combat hours.</p>
<p>Kam returned to the United States in 1971 and was assigned to Fort Rucker (Alabama) as a teacher for ground school instructors. He was honorably discharged in 1973 at the rank of captain. Relocating to Spokane, Washington, he began his career as a public school teacher and joined the Washington Army National Guard Helicopter Division, which he served with for eight years. Afterwards, he moved to Western Washington and worked as a school administrator in Kent and as Human Resources Director for Northshore School District. Following his retirement from public education in 2001, he joined the Education Department at City University. As of 2018, he is an active member of The Museum of Flight’s Docent Corps.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Kam_Calvin
Title
A name given to the resource
Calvin Kam oral history interview
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Calvin H. Kam and interviewer Ted Lehberger, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, April 29, 2018.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-29
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Bell UH-1 Iroquois (Huey) Series
Fire Base Bearcat (Vietnam)
Helicopter pilots
Kam, Calvin H.
Kam, Yun Yau
Teachers
United States. Army
United States. Army. Aviation Company, 240th
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Washington (State). National Guard
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 2 min., 27 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Vietnam War veteran Calvin H. Kam is interviewed about his military service as a helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his wartime experiences flying the Bell UH-1 Huey with the 240th Assault Helicopter Company and his postwar service with the Washington State National Guard Helicopter Division. He also touches on his later teaching career in Washington State. Topics discussed include his training and service history, his time stationed at Fire Base Bearcat (Vietnam), his other assignments with the Army and Washington State National Guard, and his career in public education.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- High school and college years -- Joining the U.S. Army -- Helicopter training -- Deployment to Vietnam -- Assignment to Fire Base Bearcat and explanation of fire bases -- Helicopter mission logistics -- Mission to investigate a downed Loach -- Return to the United States -- Thoughts on teaching methods -- Leaving the Army and service with the Washington State National Guard -- Teaching career in Western Washington -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/1fc8ff20057ba75ff732b3143f7f2fde.mp4
35817bcbe7fed219516de7ebb7f80563
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/d6ce6e52d770c624e70f821d9e1a6b26.pdf
e43b70222f4cc6c823daf45af4d760bd
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Bill Redmon
Interviewed by: John Barth
Date: March 27, 2018
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Naval aviator Bill Redmon is interviewed about his 27-year career with the United States Navy.
He discusses his training and experiences as a pilot, landing signal officer, and commander and
shares details about his combat tours during the Korean War and Vietnam War. He also discusses
other notable assignments from his service and his experiences with various aircraft, including
the Vought F4U Corsair, the Douglas A3D (A-3) Skywarrior, and the McDonnell F3H (F-3)
Demon. The interview concludes with a brief overview of Redmon’s post-military activities and
a discussion about some of his military memorabilia.
Biography:
Bill Redmon was a pilot for the United States Navy from 1942 to 1969, serving in the Korean
War and Vietnam War.
William Lee Squire Redmon was born on March 1, 1924 in Tipton, Missouri to William and
Della M. Redmon. In 1931, he and his mother relocated to Wichita, Kansas, where he attended
Wichita East High School.
In December 1942, Redmon enlisted in the United States Navy. He entered the V-5 Program and
trained in the Naval Aircraft Factory N3N and the Stearman N2S Kaydet. He completed advance
training at Corpus Christi, Texas and underwent additional training at Kingsville. After receiving
his wings in April 1945, he entered pre-operational training at DeLand, Florida, then earned his
carrier qualification aboard the USS Sable (IX-81). He was awaiting deployment to the Pacific
Theater when World War II came to an end. He accepted a discharge from active duty but
remained in the Navy Reserve.
In 1948, Redmon graduated from Wichita State University (Kansas) with a B.S in Accounting
and Economics and then returned to active duty. He completed a refresher course at Pensacola,
Florida and transitioned to the Vought F4U Corsair. Afterwards, he joined Fighter Squadron 114
(VF-114) at Naval Air Station North Island in California and deployed for a nine-month tour to
Korea. His missions included flying close air support for ground troops and air interdiction
against trains, ships, and bridges. Returning to the United States, he entered landing signal
officer (LSO) school and trained with Composite Squadron 11 (VC-11). He deployed again to
Korea, this time with Carrier Air Group 101 (CAG-101) aboard the USS Kearsarge (CV-33). In
addition to serving as LSO, he also flew missions in the Douglas AD Skyraider. When his second
combat tour ended in 1954, he had flown over 100 combat missions in Korea.
After a six-month tour to the Mediterranean with CAG-101, Redmon was next assigned to
Lakehurst, New Jersey, where he served as public information officer for a radar Reserve
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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squadron and helped to recruit college students to the Navy. His subsequent assignments
included serving aboard the USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31), flying the Grumman F9F-6
Cougar and McDonnell F3H Demon at Naval Air Station Miramar, California, and serving with
Heavy Attack Squadron 123 (VAH-123) at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island in Washington.
From 1965 to 1967, he served as assistant air boss aboard the USS Coral Sea (CV-43) during its
cruises to Vietnam. He then returned to NAS Whidbey Island. He retired from the Navy in 1969.
As a civilian, starting in 1970 Redmon worked for 20 years as an insurance agent for State Farm
based in Oak Harbor, Washington. He also distributed Bibles on behalf of Gideons International
and served as a Little League manager and association president. He also volunteered at The
Museum of Flight. Redmon and his wife Billie were married on August 10, 1954. They had three
children. Redmon died on November 22, 2022 on Whidbey Island, Washington.
Biographical information derived from interview, additional information provided by
interviewee, and records on Ancestry.com.
Interviewer:
John Barth is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps, which he joined in 2016. He
has over 30 years of experience in the aerospace industry, including manufacturing, supervision
and management, and research and development.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Catherine McGourty, TMOF Audio Visual Video Technician.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Joining the U.S. Navy and flight training ....................................................................................... 7
College years and return to active duty......................................................................................... 10
First combat cruise to Korea ..........................................................................................................11
LSO training and service overview............................................................................................... 14
Second combat tour to Korea ........................................................................................................ 15
Experiences with anti-submarine aircraft and blimps ................................................................... 16
Other cruises and service details ................................................................................................... 17
Cuban Missile Crisis ..................................................................................................................... 20
Final assignments and post-military activities .............................................................................. 20
Comparison of ships and aircraft .................................................................................................. 21
Closing thoughts and stories about memorabilia .......................................................................... 23
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Bill Redmon
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
JOHN BARTH:
My name is John Barth. It’s about 5:30 on March 27th, 2018. We’re
located here in The Museum of Flight in Tukwila, Washington, and we’re here to
interview Bill Redmon. Thank you for taking the time to participate in The Museum’s
Oral History Program. Bill, can I get you to state and spell your name?
BILL REDMON:
I’m Bill Redmon. R-E-D-M-O-N. I live in Oak Harbor, Washington.
JB:
Can you tell us about your background? Your parents, grandparents, their occupations,
where you lived, where they lived?
BR:
Sure. My grandmother and grandfather were Squire Redmon. He was a medical doctor
from Tipton, Missouri. And my grandmother was Sara Redmon. She was a very talented
painter, painted fine china and fired it in her own kiln. We have a good collection of her
things at home. I was born in Tipton, Missouri, just a farmhouse outside of Tipton. And
my grandfather was the one that delivered me.
JB:
Did you grow up there in Tipton?
BR:
For seven years, I lived in Tipton. One of the first things I remember about that was when
I was about five years old, my father was backing a Model T out of the driveway onto a
gravel highway, and the door flew open and I flew out. So fortunately I wasn’t seriously
injured, but that was one of my first remembrances. Another was that when I was six
years old, I earned my first dollar cultivating corn behind a team of mules. The farm next
door to us. I got a dollar for my first day’s work.
JB:
At six?
BR:
At six. [laughs] I had an old mule. Matter of fact, one of the mules—we had Tom and
Jerry, and Tom was the one that I used to ride. He was very gentle and was one of the
highlights of my life. I had three dogs at one time, an Airedale, a Collie, and a German
Shepard. The Collie was killed when it was run over by a truck. He was chasing the
Airedale across the road, and the truck hit him. So that was kind of a disaster in my early
life.
When I was seven, my mother left my father. Things were pretty tough on the farm in
1931, and so she moved to Wichita, Kansas. And that’s the last time I saw my
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grandmother and grandfather. That was kind of a difficult time for me. But when we
moved to Wichita, my mother went to business college and learned to be a secretary.
Studied shorthand and typing and found employment with W. D. Bales, who had an oil
company that delivered fuel oil and supplies to the farmers in Western Kansas. And he
kind of became a surrogate father for me. Used to take me with him on trips to his
stations in Western Kansas and would stop along the hedgerows on the way home to
shoot rabbits for dinner. He hired me one summer to run one of his stations when I was
about 16 years old, and I stayed at a—matter of fact, slept on a cot in the station during
the week. [laughs]
JB:
Speaking of your education, what was it like? Where you went to school?
BR:
I went to—through second grade in Missouri and then moved to Wichita and went to
Wichita High School East. And graduated from high school there in 1942 and entered the
Navy in December of ‘42.
JB:
During your high school years, did you participate in sports? Did you work? What was—
it was during the Depression. You went from the Roaring Twenties to the Depression.
BR:
Yes. I didn’t have much time for sports in high school. Actually, I started working when
we first moved to Wichita. My first job was delivering magazines door to door, taking
subscriptions and passing them out. And then from there—of course, I cut grass for the
neighbors and I delivered newspapers. When I was in high school, I worked in a theater, a
vaudeville theater, and used to also sell concessions there. Then after I graduated from
high school, I attended business college for a short time and learned typing and shorthand
also, which led me to an interview with the FBI to see if I could be a male secretary to
travel with their agents. Right about that time, I had a job at the airport working for the
airport supervisor as his personal secretary.
And so I changed my mind and enlisted in the Navy to go through flight training right out
of high school with no college. It was open at that time to the V-5 training program. And
they called me to active duty in 1943, early ‘43, and that started my 27-year career in the
Navy. First station was Liberty, Missouri, where we had a half-a-day of physical training
and a half-a-day of schooling, recognition and navigation, different subjects for ground
school. Second place was at Topeka, Kansas, where I flew the Aeronca, the Piper Cub,
other little planes. That was my first solo plane. And then at the end of that section, I flew
the N3N, which was built by the Navy. It was very similar to the N2S Stearman trainer.
00:08:15
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[Joining the U.S. Navy and flight training]
JB:
Let me roll back just a little bit. So to get into the Navy as a trainee—to be trained as a
pilot, how did you qualify for that? Certainly there must have been a pretty good, lengthy
list of people who wanted to be pilots.
BR:
I think there were. There was a delay in getting in because there were so many in the
pipeline, you know. But we just had to take a physical exam and a written exam, and if
you passed those two, they would send you to the Wartime Training Center, which was
what we had at Topeka, Kansas.
JB:
So the testing pretty much sorted out who was going to be pilots?
BR:
I was applying for pilot directly—pilot training only. One highlight to that was that when
I first went down to apply, they had a substation in Wichita, Kansas, and the chief petty
officer checked me out. And when he weighed me, he said, “You weigh too much. You
can’t qualify. You have to—” I weighed 155 pounds at that time and was five foot ten.
And he said, “You have to get down to 145 pounds.” So I did. I started working out and
running and doing all sorts of things to lose weight. Went back when I got down to 144
pounds. They sent me to Kansas City. When I got to Kansas City, the doctor weighed me
and he says, “You’re almost too light.” The chief had read the wrong line on the book for
qualification.
JB:
[laughs] That must have been a funny interchange.
BR:
It was. But I got back up to 150 in a hurry. [laughs]
JB:
So then you were training. Let’s get back to where you were. I’m sorry I interrupted,
but—so you were training on the N2Ss and—
BR:
The N3N there. From there, I went to Iowa City for pre-flight school. It was a half-a-day
of book-learning again and a half-a-day of physical training in the wintertime, with snow
drifts up to your neck and marching to and from where you slept to where you ate or
worked—went to school. And that was only about three or four months, and then we
went to Grosse Ile, Michigan for flight training in the N2S. That was the Stearman. And
again in the wintertime, flying in an open cockpit and learning to land in circles on the
ground.
JB:
What kind of maneuvers did you learn?
BR:
At that base, we learned acrobatics and we learned to fly at night. We also had to make Sturns to a landing and a circle on the ground or make a slip to the circle and straighten out
just before you hit. And one of the things that I learned there was to do what they call an
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inverse Immelmann. This Immelmann is when you take off and you fly up and you come
back down and you roll over. No, I’m sorry. It’s when you go straight down upside down.
You turn over and go straight down and then roll out at the bottom. That’s the only time
I’ve ever had red eyes as a result, where the blood actually goes to your eyes from the
G—from the negative G that you’re pulling. That’s the only airplane I know that can do
that. [laughs]
JB:
So how long were you there training in the winter?
BR:
About six months there. And then we went to Corpus Christi, Texas for advanced
training. We flew the BT Vultee Vibrator, they called it. It had fixed landing gear, lower
wing like the SNJ. But that was a short transition, and then we went to the Texan, the SNJ
AT-6. From there, we started flying—or started training in aerial combat. We would strafe
a towed sleeve. Your ammunition had different colors on it for different pilots so that you
could count the number of hits on that sleeve. And also, we were dropping bombs on
Padre Island to make sure we knew how to not only strafe, but bomb. And the training on
the sleeve was to simulate aerial combat with another aircraft. So that was the purpose of
that.
JB:
I’m not familiar with your term “training on the sleeve.” Can you explain that a little bit?
BR:
Sleeve was a target that was towed behind another airplane.
JB:
Oh.
BR:
And so while he was going along—he was usually flying a straight line for you, but
you’d make high-side bombing—high-side attacks on him or overhead attacks, where
you come straight down on top of it. It just taught you how to lead a target and prepared
you for combat.
JB:
What about navigating?
BR:
Say again?
JB:
Navigating. Did you learn that there, too? Did you start learning navigation?
BR:
Oh, navigation. Yes. Dead reckoning—we’d have a board that you plot your position of
the ship and then where you were flying and how to get back to the ship. Also, celestial
training. We shot the stars and would figure your position from three shots with the stars.
Where they intersected is where you were. [laughs]
JB:
You also used Morse code, didn’t you?
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BR:
Yes, that was one of our first classes, was learning to take Morse code, and we used that
when we were navigating on instruments. If you didn’t know where you were, you could
tune into a local radio station, a navigation station. And they had, of course, four
quadrants, four legs, and on one side of that leg was an alpha, an A. On the other side was
an N. So if you could determine whether you were receiving an A or an N, you knew
which side you were on, but you didn’t know how far you were from that station. The
only way we could tell was to fly in one direction, and if the signal faded, you were
flying away from the station. If the signal built, you know you were headed towards the
station. So you had to make several corrections in order to get yourself headed back to
where you wanted to go.
JB:
What was your next training?
BR:
After Corpus Christi, I went to Kingsville for a short time, where we flew the SBD dive
bomber. I got only 20 hours in that, but it was in the summertime versus the snow in
Grosse Ile. It was hot down there in Texas. The SBD that we were flying didn’t have the
best sparkplugs apparently, and if you had a long taxi before takeoff, quite often those
sparkplugs would load up. And if they loaded up, you didn’t have enough power to get
airborne, so you’d have to sit there and lean out the throttle and burn out—clean out the
sparkplugs. Many of my classmates didn’t make it because they didn’t have it burned out
properly and they didn’t have enough power to get airborne, and they’d go tooling out
through the sagebrush. So 20 hours in the SBD was kind of a challenge.
JB:
No second chance if you tooled out into the sagebrush? Were you—
BR:
Most of them just lost their landing gear.
JB:
Oh. All right.
BR:
From there on, I went to—let’s see—DeLand, Florida. That was my first fighter combat
plane. Flew the FM-2 Wildcat. And our training again there was strafing on a towed
target and bombing again. Those were the two main things. And also, we started
practicing to land on an aircraft carrier. They call that field carrier landing practice, FCLP.
JB:
So the training in Florida, is that after you received your wings or before?
BR:
Oh, yes. I got my wings in April of ‘45 and went directly to DeLand, Florida for the
advanced training. That was pre-operational training. And from there, they sent us to
Glenview, Illinois, where we made our first carrier landings on the Sable, which was a
converted cruise ship they had put a flat top on and a catapult. So I made my first carrier
landings on the Sable out at Glenview, Illinois on the Great Lakes. That’s the same carrier
that President George Bush made his qualifying landings on a year prior to mine.
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JB:
Was that equipped with a steam catapult or a hydraulic catapult or—
BR:
It was a hydraulic catapult that gave you quite a jolt. You had to put your elbow in your
stomach and hold onto the stick with your right hand, and when you take your throttle—
full throttle, you grab the front of the throttle quadrant, and then you put your head back
on the headrest and shake your head at them, and they would fire the catapult. I was 200feet in the air before my eyeballs became uncaged and I knew where I was. [laughs]
JB:
Going back to the Wildcats for a minute, tell us about the landing gear on that. I
understand that was quite a plane to take off of a ship on.
BR:
It had a special characteristic, meaning that it had retractable landing gear, but the only
way you could retract the landing gear was with a chain drive with your right hand. So as
we were taking off, we had to switch from the stick on the right hand, and the throttle
quadrant on the left would go to full power, switch over, hold on to the stick with the left
hand, and grab the handle on the crank. And you see the planes taking off like this—
[demonstrates]—as they drew the gear up.
00:21:29
[College years and return to active duty]
JB:
So was that then—after your carrier landings, is that about the end of your training? Or
what’s next?
BR:
We had received our wings and our commission as an ensign after we left the SBD in
Corpus. So in April of ’45, I was commissioned. And then after I finished my
qualification on the carrier, we were sent to a replacement pool in Glenview, Illinois, the
second time I’ve been there. And we were waiting to be deployed to the Japanese conflict
in the Pacific when the war ended. So I saw no combat in World War II. They gave us an
opportunity to get out of the Navy or stay in. We had a choice. Since I had just a high
school degree, I chose to get out of the service, and in December they discharged me.
In January, I started college at Wichita University, Wichita, Kansas, my original
hometown there. And in 1948 June, I graduated from college. They had a direct
procurement program open. And I had been in the Reserves all this time from ’45 to ’48,
so I was able to come back in with a regular commission instead of a reserve
commission. Started with a new date of rank as an ensign, but it got me out of the hump
of all the qualified pilots that stayed in. And so it was an advantage to me and also made
it possible for me to make a full career in the Navy.
JB:
During your Reserves, did you fly for proficiency?
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BR:
We did. We flew out of Kansas City in the SNJ most of the time.
JB:
Your training seems to be very thorough. Were the pilots prior to you—did they get as
much training during the war?
BR:
Not quite. They were expedited through the training program, and it took less time.
00:24:10
[First combat cruise to Korea]
JB:
So you’re back in with a full commission.
BR:
[laughs] Right. Yeah. I went through refresher training in Pensacola this time. We had to
start off with the SNJ again, but shortly after that we were transitioned to the F4U
Corsair. Eventually I went to VF-114 in San Diego, flying out of Coronado North Island.
And again, we went through simulated combat, strafing towed targets and bombing
again. Also had to re-qualify aboard ship. Took a lot of field carrier landing practice to be
able to go out and make carrier landings with the Corsair, which was a little more of a
challenge.
When July the Fourth, we were sent orders to depart San Diego for Korea and got over
there just as the North Koreans had pushed the South Koreans clear down to the Port of
Pusan. That’s the southern tip of Korea. They were almost forced off entirely. Our first
missions were flying close air support for the ground troops there to keep them—to shoot
the North Koreans and hold them off.
Then after that, the plan was to go and cut off the entire Northern group by landing at
Incheon. And the Incheon invasion was very successful. One of the first combat—entire
air group attacks was on Seoul. And at the time we attacked Seoul, they had lots of
antiaircraft to fire—capability. We went in in different squadrons, all alternating, and their
attacks—there was just a solid blanket of antiaircraft fire as we went down. And I
realized I had no control over whether I made it back to the carrier that night or not.
[chokes up] That’s when the 23rd Psalm became very real to me. “The Lord is my
shepherd. I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures, leadeth me beside
the still waters. He restoreth my soul. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the
shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they
comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies. Thou
anointest my head with oil. My cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy will follow
me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” That’s when
Jesus Christ became my savior, and I had no further fears through 100 combat tours in
Korea.
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JB:
You flew many more combat missions after that. Can you describe some of them?
BR:
We would take off from the carrier sometimes before dawn in order to find tanks, trains,
ships that were still exposed. Most of the time the Koreans would actually drive a tank
right into one of their grass huts during the day so that they couldn’t be seen from the air.
Then if we caught them before they got into a hut, we would destroy the tanks. Tanks,
trucks, locomotives—these were our targets. Also bridges. Bridges and any way to
disrupt their transportation.
JB:
So you were sent out to find targets?
BR:
We were sent out to find targets or to destroy gun emplacements.
JB:
In certain areas, quadrants that they were—
BR:
Right.
JB:
Right. Okay. So bridges—yeah. Any of that. You—
BR:
We were scheduled to be there six months, but when the Chinese came across and started
pushing our troops south, we were extended another three months, so we spent nine
months over there the first time. When we were attempting to keep the folks from coming
in from China, we would have a mission to destroy the bridge on the Yalu River, but we
had restrictions at that time that we could not fly into China. The bridge is this way,
China is up here, and Korea is down here. [demonstrates] The bridge goes across this
way, but we would have to bomb across the bridge instead of length-wise. It’s much
easier length-wise because you have a bigger target. But we had to fly down the river, just
because they restricted us from flying into China. They had Anju Airport directly across
the river to the north with the MiGs stationed there who would take off to intercept us as
we were bombing, so it was a hairy attack. [laughs]
JB:
It must have been. I’m not familiar with the topography there. Is that kind of in a canyon?
Or it’s a river, so it’s the lowest part. Is it pretty flat around it? Or do you have to come in
working up a canyon?
BR:
There was quite a hillside. It was not a flat target.
JB:
So they knew where you were coming from.
BR:
Yeah. Absolutely.
JB:
Yeah. That must have been some very—
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BR:
I had the thrill of—as I turned over to make my bombing attack, to look up and see a jet
coming down. [laughs] So you made a few jinks on the way down and then dropped your
bomb.
JB:
That sounds like some very intense fighting. During your deployment there, your ninemonth deployment, you were awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross?
BR:
Yes, I had the Distinguished Flying Cross, and also, I think, five or six Air Medals. And
have other citations, but those were the two most important. We were also involved in the
Chosin Reservoir evacuation when the Chinese were coming in, just hoards of Chinese in
white clothes in the snow so you couldn’t see them. But they were pushing our Marines
and Army people out. They had them completely overwhelmed. They were also in control
of the road that led back to the Chosin Reservoir, where there was a small airport. They
were trying to evacuate our soldiers and Marines when they, like I say, had them pinned
down. They could not get through. We were then tasked to fly close air support, where
they had air controllers and controllers on the ground, too, to tell us where the Chinese
were. Then we would come in and drop napalm, and that would explode and light up the
whole area. As a result of this, they were able to get through and back to the Chosin
Reservoir for that evacuation there.
One of our pilots was shot down while making one of these runs, ruptured his oil tank
and he had to make an emergency landing on the strip there at Anju—well, the Chosin—
Hamgyong. And he was coming in a little fast, and he ran off the end of the runway
there—wasn’t a long runway—down into the snow and ice. And he jumped out of the
cockpit when it came to a stop and managed to break through the ice in this little creek.
Then he got up, and he started to run back towards the airport. Then a Marine jumped up
and said, “Stop, stop. You’re coming through a minefield.” [laughs] So [Clyde Summit?]
was the man’s name. He was flown out that night and was back on the ship the next day.
Lost the Corsair. [laughs]
JB:
Did you ever get a chance to talk to any of the ground troops that you supported?
BR:
I did have opportunity to talk to a couple of them, and they were very high in their praise.
They said we were really responsible for their getting out.
[production talk]
JB:
So I’ve got a photograph of you here. [hands photograph to Redmon] Maybe you could
tell me about that.
BR:
Yeah. That’s when I was a little younger than I am today. [holds up photograph] And
matter of fact, this was our first trip to Korea. One of my wife’s favorite pictures. [laughs]
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JB:
How old were you at that point?
BR:
20.
JB:
Yeah. Can you tell me about this photo? [hands cruise book to Redmon]
BR:
This is the cruise book from the first trip to Korea. I flew the Corsair with the Avenger
Squadron. And our skipper on that trip was Ed Deacon. Ed Deacon had been a pilot on
the Lexington during Pearl Harbor. He got airborne and wasn’t shot down. But anyhow,
he was our squadron skipper when we went to Korea. This just happens to be a squadron
picture of all of our pilots on the Corsair. Most of them made it back. We lost a few from
our squadron and from our air group over there. But one of those that we lost was our air
group commander on that first attack on Seoul. He went back to take a picture and see
how much damage had been done, and he was shot down on that trip and never
recovered.
JB:
I’ve got a newspaper article here. [hands newspaper clipping to Redmon]
BR:
Oh, yes. This was the only record I have, except the official one, of my being awarded the
Distinguished Flying Cross for combat in Korea, where we destroyed some gun
emplacements on a hillside just off of the coast of Wonsan. It was published in my local
newspaper at home.
00:37:45
[LSO training and service overview]
JB:
So after your nine-month tour in Korea, you were back to the United States.
BR:
Yes. My skipper, Ed Deacon, recommended that I go to landing signal officer school and
be a waver, a flag waver to bring the planes aboard carrier. So I went to Pensacola,
Florida and spent about six months there working with different types of aircraft to
qualify them to go aboard and make their first landings. These were the students that
were going through training. And after training as an LSO, I was back to Coronado in San
Diego and went through some more training with VC-11, which flew the AD and the
TBM. And we had a chance to work with the actual air group people there. Mostly the
VC people. VC are the composite squadrons that had detachments on each of the carriers.
But I got to check out in the AD and the TBM at that time.
And after this training, I was assigned to Air Group 101 with Commander [Adey?]. He
was the leader of the air group, and I flew with the AD squadron. And on this trip, we
went back to Korea on the Kearsarge for my second trip to Korea. We spent six months
this time. And that would have been from ‘52 to ’54, I think. And at the end of that time,
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we came back to the States, and they sent the air group to the Mediterranean for six
months. A pleasure cruise, I call it. We had no combat over there, but we did get to visit
many of the fine ports in the Mediterranean. We also operated with some of the other
countries. Germany is one that I remember. We flew into Germany in the AD and made
simulated attacks and came back and landed on the carrier.
When we came back from the Mediterranean, they kept the Lexington and sent us back on
the Midway. The Midway had been over there longer, and the Lexington was able to take
over and relieve them. They just changed pilots. They didn’t give the ship’s crew any rest.
When we came back from the Mediterranean, my fiancée met me in Norfolk, Virginia
and we drove to Rockwell, North Carolina, which is her hometown, and we were married
there. Married in Rockwell, North Carolina. So on our honeymoon, we drove north to
Niagara Falls and Antigo, Wisconsin and across to Wichita, Kansas and San Francisco,
and back to San Diego. I arrived in San Diego just in time to receive orders to Lakehurst,
New Jersey. So we drove all the way back on the other side of the country again. So that
was quite a honeymoon. [laughs]
[production talk]
00:42:18
[Second combat tour to Korea]
JB:
So on your second mission—your second trip to Korea, you were—
BR:
I was a landing signal officer for the air group. I was actually attached to the air wing
staff instead of the squadron, but I did fly the AD with the squadron. I had more
experience as a night LSO. We had three LSOs aboard on that cruise, but I did most of
the night waving and training the others.
JB:
Did you fly for proficiency or did you fly missions?
BR:
Missions.
JB:
That’s your second aircraft carrier. What’s the difference between the first and the second
one? Was there much? I mean, were they both straight deck carriers or—
BR:
They were both straight deck carriers. And we didn’t have a meatball, which is the visual
for them to have the proper glide slope. So the landing signal officer was the only thing
they had to give them information as to whether they were too high or too low or too fast
or too slow. We were responsible for getting them safely back aboard.
JB:
I’ve got a couple photographs here maybe you could talk to us about from your second
trip. [hands album to Redmon]
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BR:
You know, this picture shows the landing signal officers with the windscreen behind
them. And at night we had a light shining in our eyes to illuminate the paddles so they
could see whether they were lined up properly, whether they were too slow or too fast.
[demonstrates] It was up to the pilot to have the right speed, but we had lights on the
plane to indicate whether they were too fast or too slow. And as long as things worked out
all right, that was a big help.
Well, I remember one night one of the planes had lost all electrical power and had no
lights at all. All I could see was the fire from his exhaust to give him a cut, tell him when
to land. That’s more of a challenge. They didn’t give us much training on that. [laughs]
We had the Banshees and the ADs and the Panthers aboard on this cruise. I had a chance
to check out in nearly all the planes that I waved aboard, so I had one flight in the
Banshee and there was one other F9F-7 that I had one flight in. All the rest of them—and
I flew 20 different combat aircraft in my 27 years, so it was an opportunity for me just to
get familiar with the planes that I was waving aboard.
JB:
Tell me about this photo. [hands album to Redmon]
BR:
Attack Squadron 702. 702 was a Reserve squadron that was called back on active duty.
They’re the ones that were flying the AD during Korea’s—on my second trip. The 702
was then commissioned as VA-145, which at that time was still flying the AD, but later
on was at Whidbey Island as the A-6 squadron and preceded the A3D. No, that’s not
right. [laughs] They came in after the A3D, and later they became an electronic warfare
plane, the EA-6B. The EA-6B had four people in it. The A-6 attack version only had two
people in it. But that’s the story on CAG-101 and Squadron 702. I flew only a few
combat missions on the second cruise. A total of 100 combat missions in Korea, but only
a few in the second cruise.
[production talk, showing photographs to camera]
00:49:21
[Experiences with anti-submarine aircraft and blimps]
JB:
So now you drive across country again after your honeymoon drive, and you went to
Lancaster, New Jersey. What did you do there?
BR:
It was Lakehurst, New Jersey. Lakehurst was—my primary duty was recruiting pilots for
the Navy. I got to visit all the colleges twice a year. And I was also the public information
officer for the radar Reserve squadron there. And Lakehurst is a blimp airport as well as a
reserve for the anti-submarines, mostly. Anti-submarine training. So between the airship
and the—let’s see—S2F and the AF, those two airplanes were anti-submarine planes, and
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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I got to check out in those, too, as well as a Beechcraft and the T-34 and the SNJ. I got to
fly all of those.
Matter of fact, one of the things that I found very successful when I visited the colleges, I
would tell the prospects, “If you will come down and take the written exam and the
physical exam to see if you’re eligible, qualified, I’ll take you up in the plane and we’ll
fly either over your college or your hometown.” [laughs] I only had two pilots that got
sick and didn’t follow through. Recruiting was easy with taking them for a flight.
JB:
You took many of them on a flight then?
BR:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
JB:
How about the blimps? Did you ever get to go up in a blimp?
BR:
One flight in the blimp. Our friend [Rushir?] was checked out in both airships and
heavier-than-air, and I went up with him one time in the winter when ice—Saltwater Bay
was frozen. It was really cold. But I got a chance to control it a little bit. It had a wheel
and it had a huge trim tab, which was also a wheel. You take about three turns back, and
then those would very slowly come up. It was a very different experience. One flight was
enough. [laughs] They had the capability, though, of staying up for long hours. Twelve to
15 hours of flying time was not unusual for them. Occasionally, they would have me
patrolling off the coast looking for submarines, and the wind would come up and be too
strong from the west. Instead of coming back home, they’d have to go to Bermuda, spend
a couple of days over there until the wind died down.
JB:
Sounds like something you might wish for. You leave the frozen sea for Bermuda.
BR:
That’s true. [laughs]
JB:
That was a three-year assignment?
BR:
That was three years. My son was born while we were there. Son Dennis. He’s now just
retired. So you can understand, I was born in March the 1st, 1924. I just had my 94th
birthday.
00:53:11
[Other cruises and service details]
JB:
Congratulations. Where were you assigned after your recruiting?
BR:
After recruiting, I went to line school for six months in Monterey, California. Let’s see.
[pauses] I went to the Bon Homme Richard, I guess, the next—the Bon Homme Richard
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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was in Bremerton when I went aboard. It was there for modification. They put an angle
deck on for the first time instead of a straight deck. The previous carriers had all been
straight deck carriers. So the angle deck made all the difference in the safety for pilots. It
not only had the angled deck, it had the Fresnel lens with the meatball in the middle, the
green arm sticking out and the yellow ball in the middle. If you were on the proper glide
slope, you’d see yellow matched with those green arms. If you got low, you’d see a red
warning. If you were high, you were off of the ball. But you could tell very rapidly where
you were. The landing signal officer’s job was much easier with the angle deck and the
meatball.
The main reason for the angle deck, on the straight deck you had planes parked up on the
bow, so when you were coming in for a landing with those planes up forward, if you
didn’t catch a wire, without some other thing you would run into the planes up there and
cause a disaster. So they had a barricade on the straight deck, which meant if you didn’t
catch a wire you’d go into the barricade. It would stop you before you got to the planes
on the bow, but it would tear up the airplane. With the angle deck, if you didn’t catch a
wire you just full throttle and took off again, come back around, and make another try. So
it was much safer to fly aboard a carrier with the angle deck.
JB:
How many cruises did you do on the Bon Homme Richard?
BR:
It was a three-year tour, so we deployed every six months. I was gone for Thanksgiving
and Christmas three years in a row.
JB:
After your assignment with that ship, what was next for you?
BR:
From the Bon Homme, I was sent to Whidbey Island. Is that right? [laughs] Whidbey
Island. No, that’s not right. When we came back from that, I was sent to a squadron at
Miramar, and I flew the F9F-6 and the F3H night fighter. When we made the cruise
aboard the—let’s see. Which one was that? Coral Sea? No, not the Coral Sea. Which one
was—
JB:
You know what? We didn’t get that one.
BR:
Oh, we didn’t get that one?
JB:
No. That’s the only one we didn’t remember the name of.
BR:
Oh, okay.
JB:
So let’s do that just slightly different.
BR:
Anyhow, I flew the F3H night fighter there and was landing signal officer. And we made
one cruise to WESTPAC on a ship that I’m unable to identify at this point. [laughs] But
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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that was another three years, I think, with the air group out of Miramar. From there, I
went to Whidbey Island, became—I came up there because I had experience waving the
A3D aboard ship and they were in need of qualified LSOs up there. And I started off in
operations as well as the LSO. And as the time went on, they sent me to be the nuclear
weapons officer in VAH-123, the training squadron there. From there, I went to be the
maintenance officer in that same squadron, 123, and eventually I became the executive
officer of 123. All in three years.
JB:
That’s between 1962 and ‘65?
BR:
‘62 to ’65, yeah.
JB:
That’s quite a bit of an advancement. I want to roll back for just a second. Let’s try the
fifth cruise slightly differently, okay? Okay?
BR:
Korean—I mean, the—
JB:
The fifth cruise. The one we can’t remember the ship name on.
BR:
Okay.
JB:
[laughs] So after your fourth cruise, your fifth cruise, what planes were you flying? You
were a signal officer, if I’m not mistaken there, and you were flying what?
BR:
Flying the F3H. That’s a night fighter. And that was a good airplane. I had one experience
with it when we were—ship was in port and the planes had flown over to Atsugi in Japan,
and I had a chance to be airborne in the Demon. Coming back to the field after the flight,
I came over the high station where we’d normally go into idle descent, pull the throttle
back, and it didn’t stop unwinding. It flamed out. So they train you to restart that plane,
and it didn’t take long for me to get it started again. I didn’t even have to call in and tell
them I had a problem. Just came on in and landed. But that’s the first time I had a
flameout in any of the jets. We used to practice flameout approaches, incidentally. That
was fun, too. Come in at 10,000-feet over the end of the runway, make a 360-degree turn,
and you were ready to land. You’d lose 10,000 feet to make that 360-degree turn without
power. [laughs]
JB:
That’s some very intense training.
BR:
It’s exciting.
[production talk]
01:01:00
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[Cuban Missile Crisis]
JB:
So during your training—or during your ‘62 to ‘65 tour at Whidbey Island and you
moved up the ranks and all of the rest of it, didn’t you get a request to go home?
BR:
Request what?
JB:
A request to go home? For your father-in-law?
BR:
Oh, that was soon after I arrived there in ‘62. They sent me through expedited training to
land onboard carrier and sent me to down to San Diego for the qualifying landings there.
After I’d made my day and night landings, I had a message that my stepfather had passed
away in Oklahoma, and I was given permission to fly the plane back there that I took off
from the carrier.
So I flew from the carrier that morning about 7:30 to Miramar in San Diego and filed a
flight plan for Oklahoma City. Went to the plane, taxied out to the runway, requested
permission to take off, and they said, “Your flight plan to Oklahoma City has been
canceled. Admiral White directs Lieutenant Commander Redmon, proceed to Las
Alamedas, California, pick up priority cargo, and take it to Philadelphia International
Airport.”
It turns out that I was carrying missile heads—missile warheads from Point Mugu to
Dahlgren, Virginia during the time of the Cuban Crisis, when Kennedy was able to keep
them from going in and having to use those missiles. The admiral in San Diego knew that
I had a cargo rack in the bomb bay that could carry a good load of missile warheads. So I
was met in Philadelphia by the folks from Dahlgren, Virginia, and they off-loaded the
missiles. I refiled for Oklahoma City, got there about 2:00 in the morning. It was a long
day of flying.
01:03:50
[Final assignments and post-military activities]
JB:
So that brings us up to ’65. What is your next ship assignment?
BR:
’65, I was sent to the Coral Sea. This time I was the assistant air boss up in the tower.
And I had only an opportunity to fly for proficiency during that little over two years,
from ’65 to ’67. At the end of ’67, I went back to Whidbey Island. But that was during
the Vietnam War during our time aboard the Coral Sea. I didn’t do any flag waving
during that.
JB:
Was that two cruises or was that two years of one cruise?
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BR:
No. That was two cruises.
JB:
Two cruises?
BR:
Again—
JB:
Both in Vietnam?
BR:
You deploy every six months, so it was two trips to Vietnam.
JB:
So back to Whidbey Island. So that’s 1967.
BR:
Right. ’67 to ’69. I retired from the Navy in 1969. After I retired, I became a State Farm
insurance agent. I started from scratch knocking on doors and built up a career over 20
years with State Farm and retired again. The time on Whidbey Island was so attractive
that we decided to retire there and been there since ’62, except for that two trips to
Vietnam.
Let’s see. Oh, I became a Gideon in 1976 after retiring from the Navy. And the Gideons
distribute Bibles in countries around the world today. They distributed their first Bible in
1908, so we’ve been around a long time. We distributed two million Bibles last year. That
was the last—it took us from 1908 till last year to distribute two million in 200 different
countries and 300 different languages. And we now have a Bible app that you can put on
your phone, and it has 1,300 different languages, so you don’t have any excuse not to
read the Bible.
JB:
You’re involved in quite a few different ways in the community, and you’re still active in
golf. And what are some of your other current activities?
BR:
Yeah. I play golf Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. [laughs] One of the things that I did in
the community was, when my son was ten years old, we were involved in Little League
Baseball, and I became the manager of the team and then later on became president of the
association. So I had Little League experience for several years there. I also sing in the
choir at the church.
01:07:50
[Comparison of ships and aircraft]
JB:
So during your career in the Navy, you served on several different aircraft carriers. Can
you give us some comparisons?
BR:
I never served on a nuclear carrier. They came in just as I was ready to retire. But I served
on straight decks with hydraulic catapults that made a tremendous acceleration. It was
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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initial. You got banged off it. And the steam catapult came along, and that’s a nice smooth
acceleration. It gets you to the same speed at the bow of the ship, but much more
comfortably. That and the angle deck and the Fresnel lens made carrier aviation much
safer and much more enjoyable.
JB:
Yeah. You stated earlier you have flown over 20 different aircraft while in the Navy. So
you’ve flown both piston-engine fighters, you’ve flown jet fighters. Give us a
comparison.
BR:
Well, you would think there’s a big difference in transitioning from one to the other, but
that wasn’t really the case. Things just go faster, you burn fuel faster, you don’t have as
long a sorties or flights, and it’s—the A-3, particularly, that I flew up here in the last part
of my career was the only plane I flew with more than one person in it. [laughs] The A-3
had three people in the attack version, and it was developed to throw the atomic bomb.
The bomb bay was big enough to carry our nuclear weapons. And we used to practice
that, what we call a “sand-blower flight,” where you’d come in at low altitude. We would
fly off the coast and down the coast and come in over Crater Lake and Crater Lake to
Boardman on the Columbia River. When we got to target at Boardman, we would pull up
into a steep climb and toss the bomb out and come on over the top and then roll out and
go back where you came from. That was the nuclear weapon way to release.
And then the second time I was back up here, I flew the trainer mostly, the TA-3B. TA-3B
had eight people in it. Five of them were trainees on the radarscope and on celestial
navigation. They would shoot the stars. We would take off at 10:00 at night in the
summertime, fly to Denver, Colorado, circle Denver, and fly back to Whidbey, a fourhour flight. But we had to be at 10:00 at night to be dark enough for them to see the stars.
[laughs]
JB:
So you were the pilot on those flights and—
BR:
Yeah.
JB:
And they were training, so were they giving you headings? How did that work in their
training?
BR:
Yeah, they did have the—from their radar, they would vector us to Denver.
JB:
Of all the fighters you’ve flown, obviously both piston engine and jet, what’s your
favorite?
BR:
I’d say the Corsair was probably my favorite.
JB:
Right behind you. [referencing the Museum’s Corsair behind Redmon] Why?
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BR:
Oh, it handled so well on the controls. It was very light and responsive on the controls.
And it’s a good airplane coming aboard a carrier. When they first—the first models were
not necessarily as kind as the one I flew. The F4U-4B had many improvements over the
initial ones, where the test pilots sometimes had to bail out.
01:12:54
[Closing thoughts and stories about memorabilia]
JB:
Well, you flew a lot of missions in them in Korea.
BR:
Yep.
JB:
You should know the plane very well. Are there any topics we’ve missed?
BR:
There may be, but I think I’ve run out of ideas. [laughs]
JB:
Do you have any advice for a young person today pursuing either a career as a pilot or
any other career? You’ve been very successful.
BR:
Have faith. You can do anything you set your heart on. And don’t give up.
JB:
I got to thank you for all your service, all the good you’ve done for this country. And
thank you for your time and willingness to participate in this oral history. It’s greatly
appreciated.
BR:
My pleasure. Thank you.
[scene transition]
[title card: “Bill Redmon: Artifacts & Images”]
JB:
You’ve got a cup in your hands. Tell us about your cup.
BR:
[holds up a coffee mug] When I was aboard the Coral Sea as assistant air boss up in the
tower, the fellows got used to my saying, “Just a half a cup.” So they went over and had
one of these cups made up for me. It says, “Assistant Air Boss Commander Redmon, half
a cup.” Half a cup. [laughs]
JB:
You’ve also got a couple hats.
BR:
[puts on hat] This is the commander’s hat my wife was so proud of. When you get
scrambled eggs, it’s kind of a special deal. So this was not the hat that was taken earlier.
That was when I was an ensign. This was when I was a commander.
JB:
You’ve got one more hat here. What can you tell us about that?
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BR:
[puts on hat] Well, this is the one I had on for most of the interview, and that’s the A-3
Skywarrior. Skywarrior is the plane I flew at Whidbey Island for 1,000 hours. And they
have a full-blown A-3 sitting outside the gate at Whidbey Island now. That plane has a
number, 263, on the nose. That’s not a squadron number. There were 263 people killed in
that airplane. It had a hatch at the bottom that you had to slide out in case of an
emergency. It did not have an ejection seat. The Air Force flew a similar airplane, but it
had an ejection seat. Good airplane. Don’t make a mistake.
JB:
Sounds like you—yeah, you can’t afford to.
BR:
Yeah.
JB:
Tell me about your jacket you’re wearing.
BR:
[laughs] Well, this has seen a lot of travel, as you can tell. It’s not as good as it used to be.
But it has the emblems for most of the planes that I flew. This is the landing signal
officer’s patch over here. And I have a few more on the back.
JB:
After all these years it still fits. What about your—is that your flight suit?
BR:
That’s my original flight suit. Well, not original, but it’s the one that I was flying in my
last years.
[scene transition]
[title card: “Image Close-ups”]
[montage of photographs discussed during the interview]
01:17:42
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Redmon_Bill.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Redmon, Bill, 1924-2022
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Barth, John
Biographical Text
<p>Bill Redmon was a pilot for the United States Navy from 1942 to 1969, serving in the Korean War and Vietnam War.</p>
<p>William Lee Squire Redmon was born on March 1, 1924 in Tipton, Missouri to William and Della M. Redmon. In 1931, he and his mother relocated to Wichita, Kansas, where he attended Wichita East High School.</p>
<p>In December 1942, Redmon enlisted in the United States Navy. He entered the V-5 Program and trained in the Naval Aircraft Factory N3N and the Stearman N2S Kaydet. He completed advance training at Corpus Christi, Texas and underwent additional training at Kingsville. After receiving his wings in April 1945, he entered pre-operational training at DeLand, Florida, then earned his carrier qualification aboard the USS Sable (IX-81). He was awaiting deployment to the Pacific Theater when World War II came to an end. He accepted a discharge from active duty but remained in the Navy Reserve.</p>
<p>In 1948, Redmon graduated from Wichita State University (Kansas) with a B.S in Accounting and Economics and then returned to active duty. He completed a refresher course at Pensacola, Florida and transitioned to the Vought F4U Corsair. Afterwards, he joined Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) at Naval Air Station North Island in California and deployed for a nine-month tour to Korea. His missions included flying close air support for ground troops and air interdiction against trains, ships, and bridges. Returning to the United States, he entered landing signal officer (LSO) school and trained with Composite Squadron 11 (VC-11). He deployed again to Korea, this time with Carrier Air Group 101 (CAG-101) aboard the USS Kearsarge (CV-33). In addition to serving as LSO, he also flew missions in the Douglas AD Skyraider. When his second combat tour ended in 1954, he had flown over 100 combat missions in Korea.</p>
<p>After a six-month tour to the Mediterranean with CAG-101, Redmon was next assigned to Lakehurst, New Jersey, where he served as public information officer for a radar Reserve squadron and helped to recruit college students to the Navy. His subsequent assignments included serving aboard the USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31), flying the Grumman F9F-6 Cougar and McDonnell F3H Demon at Naval Air Station Miramar, California, and serving with Heavy Attack Squadron 123 (VAH-123) at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island in Washington. From 1965 to 1967, he served as assistant air boss aboard the USS Coral Sea (CV-43) during its cruises to Vietnam. He then returned to NAS Whidbey Island. He retired from the Navy in 1969.</p>
<p>As a civilian, starting in 1970 Redmon worked for 20 years as an insurance agent for State Farm based in Oak Harbor, Washington. He also distributed Bibles on behalf of Gideons International and served as a Little League manager and association president. He also volunteered at The Museum of Flight. Redmon and his wife Billie were married on August 10, 1954. They had three children. Redmon died on November 22, 2022 on Whidbey Island, Washington.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview, additional information provided by interviewee, and records on Ancestry.com.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Redmon_Bill
Title
A name given to the resource
Bill Redmon oral history interview
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Bill Redmon and interviewer John Barth, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, March 27, 2018.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-27
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Korea
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Airships
Douglas A3D (A-3) Skywarrior Family
Korean War, 1950-1953
McDonnell F3H (F-3) Demon Family
Redmon, Bill, 1924-2022
United States. Navy
United States. Navy. Attack Squadron 702
United States. Navy. Carrier Air Group 101
United States. Navy. Composite Squadron 11
United States. Navy. Fighter Squadron 114
United States. Navy. Heavy Attack Squadron 123
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Vought F4U Corsair Family
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 17 min., 42 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Naval aviator Bill Redmon is interviewed about his 27-year career with the United States Navy. He discusses his training and experiences as a pilot, landing signal officer, and commander and shares details about his combat tours during the Korean War and Vietnam War. He also discusses other notable assignments from his service and his experiences with various aircraft, including the Vought F4U Corsair, the Douglas A3D (A-3) Skywarrior, and the McDonnell F3H (F-3) Demon. The interview concludes with a brief overview of Redmon’s post-military activities and a discussion about some of his military memorabilia.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Joining the U.S. Navy and flight training -- College years and return to active duty -- First combat cruise to Korea -- LSO training and service overview -- Second combat tour to Korea -- Experiences with anti-submarine aircraft and blimps -- Other cruises and service details -- Cuban Missile Crisis -- Final assignments and post-military activities -- Comparison of ships and aircraft -- Closing thoughts and stories about memorabilia