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10
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Subseries XV-B - Moya Olsen Lear, 1950-2001, undated
Description
An account of the resource
Moya Olsen Lear, 1950-2001, undated
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2000-06-20, Subseries II-B
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2000-06-20_text_063_01
2000-06-20_text_063_02
2000-06-20_text_063_03
2000-06-20_text_063_04
Title
A name given to the resource
[Flight cover commemorating Friendship One's around-the-world flight]
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers (2000-06-20), Box 179, Folder 7
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Philatelic cover commemorating Friendship One's around-the-world flight, postmarked January 28, 1988. Includes an accompanying notecard with information about the flight and the Mission Control Center at The Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington.</p>
<p>Inscription on verso of envelope: "Moya / Thanks for coming / I am honored. / Clay Lacy."</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1988-01-28
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boeing Model 747SP (747-100SP)
Friendship One
Lacy, Clay, 1932-
Lear, Moya Olsen, 1915-2001
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 philatelic cover : color ; 18 x 13 cm + 1 notecard with descriptive text (17 x 10 cm)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
envelopes
covers (philately)
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers/The Museum of Flight
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright undetermined
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/e03d2c0ea182878cc0e25b3441eb3c41.pdf
e6fa19d9ec19f5ee51feae4086b8aa5e
PDF Text
Text
Friendship One
Friendship Foundation
(A Non-Profit Corporation)
Directors:
Clay Lacy
Joe Clark
Bruce Mccaw
FRIENDSHIP ONE
AROUND THE WORLD SPEED RECORD FOR KIDS
MEDIA RELATIONS
FACT BOOK
Revise Effective: January 26, 1988
c/o The Museum of Flight
9404 East Marginal Way South• Seattle, Washington 98108
Office Phone: (206) 764-5708 • FAX: (206) 764-5707
�Friendship One
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Putting together an event like the flight of Friendship One
doesn't happen overnight.
Planning the route, securing the
aircraft, laying the ground stops, building a crew, sanctioning
the record, cutting through government red tape, recruiting
members and corporate sponsors, and organizing volunteers-all
takes time and effort.
Clay Lacy had thought of breaking the around-the-world-speed
record for several years.
Serious planning for Friendship One
commenced in the summer of 1987, when Clay Lacy, Bruce McCaw, and
Joe Clark kicked around the idea of the speed record breaking
flight around-the-world while at the Paris Air Show,
The result
was the Friendship Foundation, a non-profit organization formed
to break the existing speed record while raising money for
children's charities worldwide,
These three aviation enthusiasts then drew on their considerable
aviation -resources and network of associates to put together a
team of specialists to tackle the tasks associated with the
flight of Friendship One Around the World For Kids,
CORPORATE NAME:
The Friendship Foundation
(a non-profit corporation)
c/o The Museum of Flight
9404 East Maginal Way South
Seattle, WA 98108
(206)764-5708 Office
(206)764-5707 Fax
CORPORATE DIRECTORS:
Clay Lacy
Joe Clark
Bruce McCaw
CAMPAIGN THEME:
The Flight of Friendship One "Around-the-World Speed Record for
Kids 11
�Friendship One
-2FRIENDSHIP FOUNDATION GOALS AND OBJECTIVES
First to set an absolute speed record; Second to become the
fastest aircraft in history to circumnavigate the globe; Third to
raise a significant amount of funds to be distributed to
children's charities nationally and internationally,
FRIENDSHIP FOUNDATION STRUCTURE AND ORGANIZATION
Friendship Foundation a non-profit organization established by
businessmen Captain Clay Lacy, Joe Clark, and Bruce McCaw to
solicit and distribute funds to organizations that will benefit
children nationally and internationally.
FOUNDATION MEMBERS:
There will be approximately 100 guests on the flight.
These
guests are people who are Charter Members of the Friendship
Foundation,
In recognition of the needs of children around-theworld they have donated $5,000 or more to this worthy cause,
Each Foundation member will receive an official certificate from
the National Aeronautics Association recognizing their
participation in this epic around-the-world flight.
FRIENDSHIP FOUNDATION MANAGEMENT TEAM:
Clay Lacy:
President, Director, and Captain of the flight.
Joe Clark:
Vice President and Director
Bruce McCaw:
Secretary/Treasurer and Director
Chuck Lyford:
Dick Friel:
Manager Security and Aircraft Configuration
Manager Public Relations and Marketing
Roger Ritchie:
Lois Lacy:
Manager Aviation Press Relations
Manager Cabin Attendants
Captain Wm. S. Arnott: Navigator and Historian
Pete Torralbas:
Lynn Baker:
Ground Operations
Manager of Project Activities
�Friendship One
-3MAJOR SPONSORS
United Airlines - has donated a Boeing 747SP.
The volunteer crew
will all be current United Airlines personnel.
The Boeing Company - has generously donated fuel,project support
information and technical services.
Volkswagon United States, Inc, - underwriting for fuel, flight
documentation, donation of a new Jetta automobile to the
Foundation (which will be on board during the flight), and
invaluable management support.
Pratt & Whitney - valuable contributers to the underwriting of
the fuel needed ' for the around the world record attempt.
FRIENDSHIP ONE AIRCRAFT SELECTION:
Boeing 747SP
the selection of this remarkable aircraft is
based on its long range and high cruise speed.
Maximum take off weight:
699,000 lbs.
Maximum speed:
Mach 92 or 530 kt s.
(610 m. p. h.)
Cruise speed:
520 kts.
(575 m.p.h.)
Range:
8,000 miles plus
HISTORY OF RECENT AROUND THE WORLD RECORDS:
1.
In the late 1950's a US Air Force B-52 set a new around-theworld speed record in approximately 47 hours utilizing inflight
refueling.
2.
In the mid 1970's a Pan American B-747SP established a new
around-the-world record of approximately 46,S hours,
3.
In 1985 Brooke Knapp in a Gulfstream III flew around the
world making five stops in approximately 45,5 hours, breaking the
B-747SP record.
SPEED RECORD CRITERIA
To be officially recognized as an Around-the-World Record the
flight must meet all of the following qualifications:
1,
Be at least 36,787,559km in distance (approx. 22,867 miles),
2.
Be properly v-li tnessed by the FAI (in the US this is the
National Aeronautics Association).
3, Must be faster than the previous record,
�Friendship One
-4SETTING A NEW RECORD:
Barring some type of mechanical difficulty, it is the intention
of Captain Clay Lacy to establish a new record of under 40 hours
reducing the existing record by 5.5 hours or over 12%.
To establish an Around-the-World aircraft speed record you must
cover 22,800 statute miles or 19,864 nautical miles,
The flight will take off from Boeing Field, Seattle, make a
climbing circle to 10,000 feet or above and start the time from
over a selected point in downtown Seattle or possibly a radio fix
such as the Seattle VOR.
Two stops will be made enroute for
refueling; Athens, Greece and Taipei, Taiwan.
With two stops of 45 minutes or a total ground time of 1,5 hours,
an average 30 knot tail wind is needed to make the trip in 38,5
hours flight time or a total trip time of 40 hours,
The record will be established by flying over the designated
start/finish point after which Friendship One will proceed for
landing at Boeing Field.
The aircraft will be operated in the normal operational envelope
at all times and fuel required on each leg is less than capacity.
The January time frame is chosen as the winds are best in the
Northern Hemisphere,
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS ASSOCIATION OFFICIAL:
Colonel Milton Brown, President -- Contest and Records for the
NAA will be on board to record the official Absolute Around the
World Speed Record, as well as over a dozen city-to-city records.
NAA will file the records with FAI in Paris for world
recognition.
FRIENDSHIP ONE FLIGHT FACTS:
Date of Departure:
January 28, 1988
Time of Departure:
7:00 p,m. PST
Location:
The Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle, WA
Refueling:
Athens and Taipei
Date of Return:
January 30, 1988
Time of Arrival:
8:00 a,m, PST (est,)
Location:
The Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle, WA
�Friendship One
-5PRESS BRIEFINGS:
A press briefing has been scheduled for 5:30 p,m., at the Museum
of Flight Mission Control prior to departure,
Upon return a
press conference will be held in the William M. Allen Auditorium
one hour after landing at Boeing Field, Seattle, WA.
FLIGHT ROUTE:
The first leg, of the flight, 8,400 miles in a planned 14.5
hours, will follow the jet stream eastward over Kansas, leave the
US near Washington, D.C,, and pass over the Azores on its way to
Portugal and Spain.
Crossing the Mediterranean, the plane will
land at Athens, the first of two fuel stops.
The second leg,
estimated to take 11 hours to cover 7,200 miles, will pass over
Eqypt, Saudi Arabia, the Strait of Hormuz, Pakistan, India,
Thailand, Vietnam and land at Taipei in Taiwan for fuel,
The
third leg, 7,400 miles -- which Lacy hopes to cover in less than
12 hours - will cross Japan, Midway Island in the Pacific and end
in Seattle.
FLIGHT CREW
The flight of Friendship One will use an all volunteer crew, both
pilots and cabin attendants,
The pilot in Command will be Captain Clay Lacy, a thirty five
year veteran pilot for United,
Lacy has recruited needed crew
members from current B-747 United personnel.
All crew members will be volunteers flying for no compensation on
a privately operated aircraft,
As currently qualified B-747 airline crew members, they are all
qualified to fly under FAR 91,
FLIGHT CREW MEMBERS
Captain Clay Lacy, Van Nuys, CA
Pilots:
Verne Jobst, Chicago, IL
Al Clayes, Los Angeles, CA
Jim Roberts, San Francisco, CA
Gary Meermans, Los Angeles, CA
�Friendship One
-6Senior Flight Attentant:
Lois Lacy, Van Nuys, CA
Fight Attendants:
Kay Crabb, Salinas, CA
May Weiss, Salinas, CA
Kathryn Flanigan, Seattle, WA
Roy Rabanal, Bellevue, WA
Ingrid Vincent, Westlake Village, CA
Kay Meermans, Long Beach, CA
Fran McNally, Prescott, AZ
Nancy Strickland, Mariposa, CA
Ground Personnel:
Pete Torrablas, Narita, Tokyo
Flight Kitchen:
Charles Dolivier, Eastern Division Catering Manager, Cleveland,OH
Paul Burton, Food Services Representative, Memphis, TN
Flight Mechanics:
Carl Roseman, Los Angeles, CA
Mel Wienckowski, San Francisco, CA
PASSENGER ACCOMMODATIONS AND SEATING
United Boeing 747 aircraft, currently are outfitted with the
following number of seats:
First Class - 47
Business Class - 100
Coach - 86
Since the total passenger load will be approximately 120, all
Foundation members will be accommodated with either First Class
or Business seating.
The coach area will be utilized for lay down resting for
approximately 24 passengers at any one time,
�Friendship One
-7Designated seating will be assigned for each leg of the trip,
thereby giving each member equal time in different locations and
sleeping schedule for use of the coach lay-down seating area.
An exercise bicycle, food and drinks (better than First Class),
lots of first-run movies, and other inflight entertainment games
will also be provided.
Passengers will not deplane at stops.
WEATHER INFORMATION
Provided by Universal Weather and Aviation, Inc., Houston, TX.
COMMUNICATIONS:
Worldwide communjcations will be maintained via U.S. Air Force
Communications Command System for continuous high quality
transmissions.
FAA OPERATING REGULATIONS
The Friendship Foundation is the operator of the aircraft for the
trip and will operate under Federal Airline Regulation (FAR) 91,
the same as executive jets operate under rather than (FAR) 121.
MISSION CONTROL: COMMUNICATING THE FLIGHT OF FRIENDSHIP ONE
The Museum of Flight's participation in the flight of Friendship
One centers on the design and fabrication of "Mission Control'',
an educational, interactive museum exhibit that will communicate
to the public all aspects of this history-making event,
Mission
Control will be staffed by a crew of local students assisted by
museum docents and aviation experts.
They will be in constant
communication with the United Airlines 747SP, tracking its
progress as it attempts to set an absolute speed record around
the world.
Designed and built specially for this event, Mission Control will
include sections on the planning, crew, route, weather, and
ground stops for the flight of Friendship One as well as
information on past around the world flights.
A sophisticated
communications systems donated by the U.S. Air Force will keep
Mission Control in constant contact with the crew, enabling
�Friendship One
-8students to provide hourly updates and track the plane's progress
enroute.
In addition, the museum will feature guest lecturers,
videos, movies and workshops, highlighting the around-the-world
theme.
Located in the Museum of Flight Great Gallery, Mission Control
will open to the public on Thursday, January 28th, prior to the
departure of Friendship One from Boeing Field that evening.
It
will remain in operation throughout the flight during special
museum hours on Friday 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. and Saturday,
10:00 a,m. to 5:00 p,m,
Around-the-World activities will
continue throughout the weekend and are complimentary with a paid
admission to the museum.
Please call (206)764-5720 for visitor
information.
�End of this
document
�Depart
Arrive
Reno
Seattle
American 2183
2:15pm
3:57pm
If raining, LIMO will meet. Otherwise cab to hotel.
You are staying at the SORRENTO HOTEL - 206-622-6400
Conf. #0120 DH 31
Thursday
JANUARY 28
4pm passenger check-in a~~the Museum of Flight, Boeing
Field, 9404 E. Marginal Way, South, in the William L. Alle1
Auditorium.
TAKE-OFF for WORLD TRIP 7:15pm.
Saturday
JANUARY 30
Monday
FEBRUARY 1
RETURN TO SEATTLE. You are returning to the SORRENTO HOTEL
for 2 nights - Jan. 30 and 31.
t~·~
Depart
Arrive
Seattle
Wash.DC Nat'l
7~L/ 5/o~
American 394
7:00am
4:03pm
LIMO wi~l ~meet you. You are staying at the GRAND HOTEL
~1. ~
':l,OC'Q. ~ " l 1 , ~ ~
202-429-0100
1<~~ Cha.tl~
n
Tuesday
FEBRUARY 2
Thursday
FEBRUARY 4
~ -~"i ~~3
,.
EAGLES briefing and opening reception at Capital Hilton
6-6:30pm
Dinner parties and Gala for President's Inaugural
Anniversary Dinner dance.The Gala Ball. is at the
Capital Hilton.8:30pm
~~ t'(-t -
Depart
Arrive
wash. Nat'l
Dallas
American 815
12:50pm
3:15pm
Jill is meeting you at airport. You are staying at
THE CRESCENT COURT HOTEL - 214-871-3200
Friday FEB.5- Dinner with the Van Allers and Larry Barkis
Monday
FEBRUARY 8
Depart
Arrive
Dallas
Reno
American 405
Little Moya's office# 202-463-8333
Jill's office# 214-691-8872
Van Aller# 817-354-5753 {res)
817-280-4692 {office)
Ivar Peterson #202-296-7734 {Office)
703-776-7768 (res)
9:31am
10:52am
�End of this
document
�January 2 8, 1988
FRIENDSHIP ONE
AROUND THE WORLD FOR KIDS
FLIGHT SEATING ARRANGEMENTS
NAME
1ST LEG
2ND LEG
Achttien, Jack
Al 1 en z DQng.....
Anderson, Ronald
Armstron~ 1 Neil
Krnott, Bill
Bruce Smith/Aviation Week
Barrett, Vern
Bell, Michael
Berkey ., Paul C,
Berra, Fran
'Blethen, Buster
Broome, John
Brown, Milt
Calfas, William
Carlson, Edward
General Laurence C. Craigie
Carlson, Jane Williams
Carlson, Gene
Carroll, John
Carroll, Robert
Cerre, Michael
TBA-10
Cl'1rk ,Joe.
' Max
Clough,
Cox, Buddy
Crai•g, Cuba
Crandlemeire, George
Dean, Paul
Delaplane, Richard
]2emJ e}l Ca:c5~zj :i:.
Denney, Nanci
lJenney, Duane
Denney, Patricia
Denny, Bernadine
Dun~~rn
_.
J Robert
Ellhammar, Gosta
Erickson, Ed
18F
16G
19J
3B
36C
29G
SH
3H
2SJ
13B
19B
13A
16D
l0J
2A
2B
2H
2J
21D
29B
29A
16H
15J
20A
22E
22A
18G
16E
26J
27A
27B
27H
27J
19A
18D
4B
21B
16G
18F
19J
23B
36C
29G
20A
20F
SH
25H
l0J
21F
16D
22E
23A
20H
24A
24B
12H
29B
29A
16H
lSH
18G
2H
13B
llA
16E
26J
27A
27B
27H
27J
18D
l0H
19B
21B
-
f
l
3RD LEG
3J
16G
SF
2bH
36C
29G
20F
20A
19E
21F
16H
25H
16D
22E
23A
23B
24A
24B
18J
29B
29JJ..
lJ
l0H
llJ
2SA
23F
17A
16E
llA
13A
13B
13H
13J
3H
16A
19B
16J
�/
Erickson, Ronald
Faulkner, Harry
Filer, Don
Filer, Sallie
Fishman, Hal CNN
Fitzgerald, Gerald J.
Nigel Moll/Flying Magazine
BLOCKED
Friel, Dick
~ritsche, Jerome
Garbell, Barbara
Garbell, Gerald
Gossman, Tina
Gough, Bill Seattle Times
Guerro, Peaches
Hammar Ace/Sargeant Smiley
Haney, William
Harkey, Jim
Harkey, Brigitte
Harren, Dave
Hendricks, Sidney
Hickerson, Oscar
Holmes, Ed
Hoover, ColleE:UL
Hoover, RoberL
Jefferies, Boyd L.
Jefferies, Sharon K.
Jensen, Jim
Johns on, Roy l\.
Kirkdoffer,
Koch, Kathrine PHil.
Kohs, Gary W.
Kruse, Megan
vassay, Alex
Kvassay, Doug
Kvassay, Tony
LaMonde, Buck
Lear, Moya Olsen
Leffler, Jack
Lewis-Richland, Bonnie M.
Loomis, Walter E.
Luce, Harold
Lyford, Chuck
Mag t udet ,
na vi'd
Malone, Mike
McCaw, Bruce
lOH
4A
21H
21J
lSD
23F
36H
lSA
17G
20E
22J
22H
20D
16F
13H
29D
19E
SA
SB
17F
25H
4H
18A
26B
26A
17A
17B
21F
24J
13J
23A
20G
17J
16A
23B
20H
29E
12A
SJ
19D
22D
18J
15H
23J
16J
15B
13H
19A
lA
lB
lSD
3B
36H
21B
19A
19H
19J
lSD
18G
36H
lSA
lSA
17G
12J
2B
17G
2A
llH
16F
25J
29D
18A
24H
24J
17F
SF
20G
19E
26B
26A
17A
17B
13A
SB
23D
23F
l .lJ
17J
16A
3H
2J
29E
20J
19D
22A
12B
18J
lSB
lSJ
lSH
18A
16F
23D
29D
3A
24H
24J
17F
27A
21J
4J
12B
12A
2A
2B
17B
19D
25J
SH
17J
2H
lA
26B
23G
29E
20J
22A
4H
18F
4A
lSH
lOH
4B
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15B
27H
llH
lOA
�6'.\ \)'\
1 1am
·
.. 1· 1.... ....
McE l fatrick ! w
HcCle a n , Roy
TBA-- 9
McNaughton, Stanley
Mead, Margaret A.
_Mucklesto"ne, Bob
Neil, Richard
TBA-7
t
Olds, Howard
O'Mack, Carroll
Patterson, Scott
PM Magazine Parmly, Steve
PM Magazine Jerrick, Mike
Power, Edwin
Rainier, Joseph
Rapp, Alan D. MD
Ray, George
Ritchie, Roger
Robin, Si
Robin, Betty
Rock 1 Gordon
Rock 1 Shirley
Runyon, Richard
Ryan, Ron
Sander, William
Schlamp, I.K.
Somermeier, Sue
Somermeier, Tom
Spencer, Ron
Stanton 1 G!iii:org:_e.
UAL Maint.
UAL Maint.
UAL Flight Kitchen
UAL Flight Kitchen
VW Europe Warmus, Thomas
VW Europe Klausepeter,Becker
Walbreck, Jeff CNN
Wales, Gary
Webber, William
Westcot t , Coe
White, John
White, Carol
Widelitz, Milton
Wildley, Rob W
Yeakel, W.R.
Zimmerma n , John
12J
3A
21.A
4J
20J
17H
29C
12H
24A
3J
20F
15F
15G
l0A
19H
21G
23D
36J
lA
lB
llA
llB
lJ
18B
20B
llH
25B
25A
19G
12B
37B
37C
37J
37H
24B
24H
15E
llJ
SF
22G
26H
23G
18J
16B
23H
22B
3
21J
2 0B
12A
21.A
3J
17H
29C
22B
4H
21H
l0A
15F
15G
22H
19H
lJ
SJ
3 6J
23J
23H
20E
20D
21G
18B llB
22D
25B
25A
22J
19G
37B
37C
37J
37H
4J
SA
lSE
21D
18J
3A
26H
23G
22G
16B
4A
1 3J
2 0G .
20B
18D
21A
25B
2J
29C
22B
19G
21H
16B
lSF
15G
22H
SB
18B
27J
3 6J
20D
20E
23H
23J
21G
3B
17H
22D
12J
12H
.5.2\
22J
37B
37C
37J
37H
26H
26J
lSE
21D
22G
26A
llB
SJ
4B
lB
27B
18H
�V
Mechanic 1
BLOCKED
BLOCKED
BLOCKED
BLOCKED
PRESS & CREW
PRESS & CREW
· CREW OPEN SEATS
PRESS&· CREW SLEEPING
PILOT REST SEATS
36B
SE
l0B
18E
19F
21E
22F
29H,J,K
33H-K
34H-K
35H-K
17D,E
36B
SE
l0B
18E
19F
21E
22F
29H,J,K
33H-K
34H-K
. 3SH-K
17D,E
36B
SE
l0B
18E
19F
21E
22F
2 9H, J ,.K
33H-K
34H-K
-35H-K
17D,E
�End of this
document
�Friendship One
CONTACT: DICK FRIEL
FRIENDSHIP ONE
(206) 764-5708
DATE: January 27, 1988
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friendship Foundation
(A Non-Profit Corporation)
Directors:
Clay Lacy
Joe Clark
Bruce Mccaw
RECORD-SETTING FLIGHT BENEFITS
CHILDRENS' CHARITIES AROUND-THE-WORLD
On January
28, 1988 an attempt to establish the absolute
Around-the-World speed record will be made in a Boeing 747SP.
When the flight, christened "Friendship One ••. Around-the-World
Speed Record for Kids", departs at 7:00 p.m. (Pacific Standard Time)
from the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle it will be a dream
come true for United Airlines Captain Clay Lacy and Seattle
businessmen Joe Clark and Bruce McCaw.
Just about a year ago, these three aviation enthusiasts came
up with the idea of circumnavigating the world faster than a1lyone
in the history of aviation.
Secondly, they decided to use this
history-m&king event to raise funds for childrens' charities
nationally and internationally.
To accomplish this they formed the Friendship Foundation,
a Seattle-based non-profit organization.
Next they launched a
campaign to solicit foundation memberships with a minimum donation
of $5,000 each.
As of this date, 100 members of the foundation have
donated more than $500,000 for children's charities around the
world.
These foundation members have all been invited to be on board
this epic flight.
Assuming a new absolute around-the-world record
c/o The Museum of Flight
9404 East Marginal Way South • Seattle, Washington 98108
Office Phone: (206) 764-5708 • FAX: (206) 764-5707
�Friendship One
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 28, 1988
page two
is established, all those on board will be co-holders of the aviation
record.
Secondly, Friendship One volunteers recruited the sponsorship
of major corporations to assist with the operating cost and
technical services related to the flight.
United Airlines became the
first corporate sponsor by donating the use of a Boeing 747SP aircraft
for the flight.
Other major supporters are The Boeing Company,
Pratt & Whitney, and Volkswagen United States who have underwritten
the fuel and many other flight services required.
"In fact, this
is a 100% volunteer effort", said Bruce McCaw.
The volunteer flight crew will all be current United Airlines
personnel consisting of Clay Lacy as Captain, two other pilots,
two flight engineers, two ground personnel and eight cabin attendants.
In addition, volunteer ground personnel will be available at each
stop under the direction of Pete Torralbas, Manager of Regional
Operations in Japan for United Airlines.
The record-breaking attempt to set an absolute around-the-world
speed record will depart from the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field,
Seattle at 7:00 p.m. (Pacific Standard Time) on Thursday, January
28, 1988.
The flight will journey eastbound 23,00 miles with
refueling stops in Athens, Greece and Taipei, Taiwan arriving back
in Seattle at approximately 8:00 a.m. (Pacific Standard Time),
�Friendship One
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 28, 1988
page three
January 30, 1988.
"Our goal is to shave at least six hours off the old record
of 45 hours, 25 minutes", said Clay Lacy, who will pilot the jumbo
jet.
The Museum of Flight has established an elaborate ground base
communication center called Mission Control to provide hourly updates
and track the progress of Friendship One enroute.
"The flight of Friendship One has captured the imagination of
the aviation enthusiasts and the community-spirited citizens
dedicated to helping kids through charitable organizations", said
founder Joe Clark.
"We are very pleased with the support of the
foundation members, cooperation of the aviation community and the
enormous generosity of the corporate sponsors".
The Foundation will distribute the funds within sixty days
following the return of the world flight.
For further information contact Lynn Baker, Project Ma.nager ,._
The Friendship Foundation, c/o The Museum of Flight, 9404 East Marginal
Way South, Seattle, WA 98108, or call (206) 764-5708.
(end)
�End of this
document
�Friendship One
PRE-FLIGHT SCHEDULE
JAFUAR'.Z' 28, 1988
AT THE
MUSEUM OF FLIGHT
BOEING FIELD
9404 EAST :MARGINAL WAY SOUTH
SEATTLE, WA 98108
WILLIAN M. ALLEN AUDITORIUM
4:00pm
Passenger Check- In
4 : 45pm
Group Pho to
5:15pm
Passenger Flight Briefing
6:00pm
Press Briefing
6:30pm
Passenger Boardi~g
7:00pm
Start Engines
7~15pm
Take-Off
P L E AS E
B E P R O MP !
�End of this
document
�Friendship One
Friendship Foundation
(A Non-Profit Corporation)
Directors:
Clay Lacy
Joe Clark
Bruce McCaw
January 14, 1988
Dear D~
fvl ~ \lA
This letter confirms your membership in the Friendship Foundation
and participation in the Around the World speed record attempt in
a United Airlines Boeing 747SP. This epic flight will launch at
7:00 p.m., Thursday, January 28, 1988 from The Museum of Flight,
Boeing Field, Seattle, Washington.
In preparation for your depature, we have enclosed a check list
of items that require your immediate attention. Those items which
are starred (asterick) are of the highest priority.
The Charter Member Fact Sheet must be filled out completely and
returned to our office immediately, no later than January 22, 1988.
You may FAX us this information by sending it to us at our FAX
number 206-764-5707.
If you have any questions or special requirements, do not hesitate
to call Lynn Baker at 206-764-5708.
Thank you for helping childrens charities around the world.
Warmest regards,
Enclosures:
4
c/o The Museum of Flight
9404 East Marginal Way South • Seattle, Washington 98108
Office Phone: (206) 764-5708 • FAX: (206) 764-5707
�End of this
document
�....
�Friendship One
Friendship Foundation
(A Non-Profit Corporation)
Directors:
Clay Lacy
Joe Clark
Bruce McCaw
CONTACT:
Dick Friel
(206) 764-5708
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
THE FLIGHT OF FRIENDSHIP ONE
AROUND-THE-WORLD FOR KIDS
On January 28, 1988, Friendship One, a United Airlines Boeing
747SP, will depart the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle,
in a world record attempt to become the fastest aircraft in
history to circumnavigate the globe.
The epic flight of Friendship One is the brainchild of Clay
Lacy, Joe Clark, and Bruce McCaw, who formed the F~iendship
Foundation to raise money for childrers charities around-theworld.
Members of the Foundation have donated over $500,000
for childrens' charities around-the-world and 100 me~bers of the
Foundation will be on board this historic flight.
United Airlines Captain Clay Lacy who will pilot the jumbo jet
said, "Our goal is to beat the old record of 45 hours 25 minutes
by more than six hours."
Major sponsors for the event are
United Airlines, who donated the aircraft, The Boeing CompJny,
who donated fuel and technical services, Pratt & Whitney, who
made a major fuel donation, and Volkswagen United States, who
donated $50,000 towards expenses for the trip and a new Jetta
automobile to the Foundation (which will be on board during the
flight).
The 747SP will depart Seattle at 7:00 p.m. on the
28th of January and return at approximately 8:00 a.m. on the
30th, to the Museum of Flight.
c/o The Museum of Flight
9404 East Marginal Way South• Seattle, Washington 98108
Office Phone: (206) 764-5708 • FAX: (206) 764-5707
�File: RECORD FLT"
REVIEW/ADD/CHANGE
Escape: Restore former entry
Selection~ All records
Record 1 of 1
=======~=:============================================~~==~=~~~~~--~:~-----~--TOATAL DIST. FLOWN: 23,100 STATUTE MILES
AVERAGE SPEED: 625 MPH" (UNOFFICIALLY)
FASTEST SPEED IN FLT: 803 MPHu (UNOFFICIALLY)
TOTAL GRND" TIME:
ONE HOUR AND FIFTY ONE MINUTES
TOTAL FLT. TIME: 36~54~15 (UNOFFICIALLY>
Type entry or use A commands
48K Avail.
�End of this
document
�
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Title
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Subseries XV-B - Moya Olsen Lear, 1950-2001, undated
Description
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Moya Olsen Lear, 1950-2001, undated
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2000-06-20, Subseries II-B
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2000-06-20_container_120
Title
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[William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers, Box 179, Folder 8 - Friendship One around-the-world flight -- 1988 January 14 - 1989 October 10, undated]
Source
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The William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers (2000-06-20), Box 179, Folder 8
Description
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<p>Items from Box 179, Folders 8 of the William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers, January 14, 1988- October 10, 1989. Contains press releases, schedules, lists, correspondence, and note related to Friendship One around-the-world flight. Seven total items.</p>
Date
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1988-1989
Subject
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Boeing Model 747SP (747-100SP)
Friendship One
Lear, Moya Olsen, 1915-2001
Lacy, Clay, 1932-
McCaw, Bruce R., 1946-
Clark, Joe
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
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7 items
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English
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The William P. and Moya Olsen Lear Papers/The Museum of Flight
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-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/369bcc03be04e7fa19c1387cdf42a3bc.mp4
ef1520e5b61855914a12865a367f1775
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/a3adaec30149d9215523462e028cbcf9.pdf
fbe5e3f3a664c8f96569c6bae910654a
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Sydney Baker
Interviewed by: John Barth
Date: August 29, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Engineer Sydney Baker is interviewed about his life and his decade-spanning career in the
aviation industry. He discusses his work at Vickers-Armstrongs in the 1940s and 1950s and his
subsequent engineering jobs with Canadair and the Boeing Company. Projects discussed include
the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, the AOA (Airborne Optical
Adjunct) program, and guided missile development. He also shares his experiences as a Museum
of Flight docent and his restoration work on the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. Other topics
discussed include his school years in England during World War II, his service in the Parachute
Regiment, and his restoration of vintage sports cars.
Biography:
Sydney J. Baker was an aviation engineer who worked for Vickers-Armstrongs, Canadair, and
the Boeing Company.
Sydney James Baker was born in London, England on January 26, 1930 to Sydney Baker (a
bunting factory owner) and Esme Perrett (a shopkeeper’s assistant). When he was young, his
family moved to Surrey, England. Nearby was a Vickers-Armstrongs airdrome as well as a
racetrack, which inspired an interest in aviation and cars. During World War II, his father
volunteered for the Royal Observer Corps. Baker would help his father and the other men
identify aircraft carrying out bombing missions against England. At about age seven, he left
home to attend Sevenoaks grammar school, a boarding school in Kent, England. At the age of
12, he received his glider’s license. He became an instructor at age 14, helping to teach injured
fighter pilots how to fly again.
After graduating from Sevenoaks, Baker returned to Surrey. Wanting a hands-on job, he joined
Vickers-Armstrongs as an apprentice, where he specialized in making wind tunnel models. He
attended the local college at the same time. Once he finished his college coursework, he was
drafted into the British Army and served with the Parachute Regiment. Once he had completed
his military service, he returned to Vickers-Armstrongs as a flight test engineer but now located
in Adelaide, Australia. His projects included the Supermarine Scimitar and developing guided
missiles for the Weapons Research Establishment in Australia.
When his projects in Australia had concluded, he returned to England, but did not want to stay
there permanently. Wanting to relocate to Canada, Baker accepted a position with Canadair,
where he worked on the Sparrow missile. When the program was canceled in 1959, he accepted
a job offer with the Boeing Company and moved to Seattle, Washington. Among the projects he
worked on during his career at Boeing were the CIM-10 Bomarc missile, the Minuteman missile,
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, and the AOA (Airborne Optical
Adjunct) program.
Following his retirement from Boeing in 1996, Baker became a docent for The Museum of
Flight. He later joined the Museum’s aircraft restoration team and was instrumental in helping to
restore the tail section of T-Square 54, the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. His love of cars also
continued throughout his life; he was an amateur car racer and restored old Porsches.
Baker married his wife Janet Keast, a nurse, in 1953 and they had two children, Mary and John.
Baker died in September 2022.
Biographical sketch derived from interview, information provided by interviewee, and obituary.
Interviewer:
John Barth is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps, which he joined in 2016. He
has over 30 years of experience in the aerospace industry, including manufacturing, supervision
and management, and research and development.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences ........................... 7
Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army ................................. 11
Guided missile testing in Australia ............................................................................................... 14
Career with Canadair .................................................................................................................... 16
Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA
(Airborne Optical Adjunct) ........................................................................................................... 17
Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work ...................................... 23
Achievements and notable moments from his career ................................................................... 28
Advice for young people ............................................................................................................... 29
Car restoration and sports racing .................................................................................................. 30
Legacy of restoration work ........................................................................................................... 31
Stories from Army service ............................................................................................................ 32
Side projects at Boeing ................................................................................................................. 33
Final questions .............................................................................................................................. 34
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
�5
Sydney Baker
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
JOHN BARTH:
My name is John Barth, and it’s 10:50 a.m. on August 29th, 2019, and I
am here—we are at The Museum of Flight in Tukwila, Washington, and we’re here to
interview Syd Baker. Thank you for taking the time to participate in the Museum’s Oral
History Program. Sydney, can I get you to state your full name and spell it?
SYDNEY BAKER:
K-E-R.
Yes, it’s Sydney. That’s S-Y-D-N-E-Y, James, J-A-M-E-S, Baker, B-A-
JB:
Can you give us some background about your family, your grandparents, your parents,
what their occupations were?
SB:
Yes. My grand—my maternal side came from Somerset in England, and they were
seafaring people. My uncle, for example, served three years before the mast, which
sounds very glamorous and was damned hard, I guess. My father’s side, he came from a
fairly poor family in—from London, center of London, and he was adopted when he was
about 20, or less than that, by a very rich family. Maybe because—he always said in jest,
I think—because they used to go cruising on the Thames with their motorboat and they
got him to take the weeds off the propeller. So he used to dive overboard and untangle the
propeller for them. I’m sure he was joking.
So anyway, he—as a profession, he then joined the Army very early—that’s during
World War I—as a private and went through the trenches, went through all the horrible
battles. And just, as usual, stuff—he wouldn’t talk about it much. But he earned the Croix
de Guerre and came out a major. And he—well, very—I’m very proud of him. He was a
very fine gentleman. And after the war, he set up a small business to earn his own money
and—as a machine shop. That’s a—people who made bunting and flags. So it wasn’t a
mechanical machine shop. It was a sewing machine shop.
At that time, he built a house in a place called Surrey, which is about 20 miles south of
London. And by that time, my mother had had myself, me, and I was born in London in a
place called Herne Hill, which makes me a genuine Cockney because I was born within
the sound of Bow Bells, which makes me a genuine Cockney.
So we moved to Guildford in—I mean Surrey, south of London, into a place called East
Horsley, into a beautiful house. This was in 1932. And this—Weybridge was close by
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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and near this town called East Horsley. East Horsley was a very small village, and it was
eight miles from Weybridge. And at Weybridge was some very interesting activities. In
1920, they built a racetrack, which was three and a half miles around. So it was the first
purpose-built racetrack in the world for building—for testing cars, automobiles, of
course. It was a banked circuit. And in the middle of that, they had an airdrome, as they
called it, and in that—on that airdrome was Vickers-Armstrongs. And VickersArmstrongs, of course, built ships—that is, battleships, cruise liners. So they were a
heavy engineering company. And as a side issue, they built Spitfires and Wellingtons. So
that’s where I eventually joined up as an apprentice, but that’s a story later.
After a very happy childhood where I got to play with all kinds of interesting animals, big
dogs and things like that, I got into the usual trouble that kids get into of—I loved
working with the laborers who were building houses, and I used to climb up on the roof
and drink tea with them and have lots of social activities with these laborers, who I found
very entertaining. And my mother didn’t mind, other—in spite of the fact they climbed
up on these roofs, along all the scaffolding and stuff. But nobody seemed to care in those
days. They just let the kids run around.
Oh, in fact, one day I had a visit from the police, and the police said that I was—I had
broken into a house and written graffiti on the wall and would my mother get me down
here, and he wanted to chew me out right away. And he—my mother said, “Well, he’s in
bed.” And he—the doctor—the policeman said, “Well, is he sick?” And she said, “No.
He’s only four years old.” So the police just, “Oh. Sorry about that.”
So at this time, of course, my father was doing quite well with his machine shop business,
and I used to go up and visit him and with—and talk to the girls who were the machinists
and so on. So I loved talking to people who worked with their hands. It was just a natural
thing for me to do. As I got older, of course, I went with my father to Brooklands and
watched the motor racing, what they called club racing. And my—the person next door,
who was a commercial butcher, had an M3—M. G. Magnette, and he used to take me
around the circuit. It was extremely bumpy and very, very frightening but a very
wonderful experience. So we used to go around the track and used to reach speeds up
over 130 miles an hour on this bumpy circuit. So it was very exciting.
So that got me hooked on automobiles, and we watched—as I got to be seven, I was sent
away to boarding school to a place called East Grinstead, which was a stately home,
typical of an English boarding school. We had a very strict disciplinarian who was a
German, ironically. This was in 1938. But I had a great time after I got over the shock of
being wrenched away from my parents. The reason I was, of course, because my father
being a major, was determined my mother wasn’t going to spoil me at home, so—she did
anyway, but—but I, of course, enjoyed coming home for holidays.
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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00:07:29
[Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences]
SB:
And when it came to the war effort, 1939 when war is declared, the German headmaster
became sort of under suspicion because—just because he was a German. It really wasn’t
very fair, but that’s the way it was, I’m afraid. So I left that school—it was time for me to
leave anyway—and went back to Surrey. And by then, of course, the war had been
declared. And I went to a school down in Somerset away from the bombs, so—of course
this was during the Phoney War where there was no bombs, but we were evacuated to
Somerset anyway.
And again, I got entangled with aviation because I was right beside the—a naval training
school and they were doing dive-bombing practice. So I used to go for walks with the—I
had to walk the headmaster’s dog. I didn’t have to, but this was a way of getting out of
doing other, more difficult tasks, so… I always had an angle to get off things I didn’t
want to do. So anyway, we were walking these dogs one day, and three of these divebombers dived right into the ground where we were. And we ran over, and it was a
horrible site watching these people burn to death. So that was my first experience with
death. Not at all pleasant, but it made me realize that life wasn’t all fun.
But on the other hand, of course, we found a barn with some beautiful smells coming out
of it, so we got into this barn and found barrels on racks on the walls. And we got a stone
and we pushed one of the plugs in these barrels, and out poured this gorgeous-smelling
stuff. We got a cup that was nearby and started drinking this stuff. It turns out it was hard
cider. So pretty soon we were so drunk we couldn’t walk. The dog was drunk, too.
[laughs] So after about four hours, they—the police found us pretty well unconscious on
the floor. And, of course, we all got hell for that. So that was sort of the things I used to
do, which wasn’t—not very good.
By then, of course, the war—this is 1939, 1940. And in 1940 my father volunteered to
join the Observer Corps. And you got to remember, of course, that the radar only looked
out over the coast. And the later radars were actually able to see out over the French coast
and see the German formations forming and watched them come across. And they got a
pretty good idea where the targets were going to be because they could tell what part of
England they were heading for. But once they crossed the coast, the radar coverage
ceased to exist. So the only way they tracked those formations was with the people in
these Observer Corps posts. An Observer Corps post was a ring of sandbags, and in the
center of the ring there was a theodolite and on the—mounted on a map of the local area.
So the mission of the Observers was to look at these airplanes with—through this
telescope and count the number of airplanes and report in what angle they were from
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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your position. Now, of course, there were enough of the Observers that they were able to
establish a track and also the altitude of the airplanes. And my job was to tell these old
guys, who couldn’t see very well, what kind of airplanes they were, which was very
rewarding. So I can claim that I was in the Battle of Britain. So that was my participation
in the Battle of Britain.
Of course, when I went to boarding school in—grammar school, rather—I went to a place
called Sevenoaks in Kent. Ironically, the place—the reason my parents chose that was
because they had very good air raid shelters, even though it was on the main route
between France where the enemy aircraft flew over on their way to bomb London. So it
was more a procession of enemy airplanes flying over the school, mainly during the night
during the Blitz. And, of course, randomly they’d drop bombs around the school. Not
because they were aiming at the school. Because they were under attack by fighters or
whatever. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the—World War II to me as a young
boy—and I was so fortunate not to lose any of my loved ones—was one big party. I had
an absolutely wonderful time. And I know that’s terrible to say, but being in London
during the war was a wonderful time to be in London—I mean, in England. Everybody
was pulling in the same direction, there was no strikes, and everybody had a common
purpose and pulled in the same direction. It was absolutely fantastic.
Anyway, back to Sevenoaks, where I was in school. Like I said, we watched the bombers
go over at night. I was on the fifth floor up on the top, looking out over the Kent
countryside, so we were quite elevated from the surrounding country. They had a really
good view of the airplanes coming. And very occasionally, we used to get a large bomb
dropped nearby. And the most exciting one was that they dropped a land mine, which
was a parachute mine that landed about five miles away. And these were designed for
blast, so it blew out all the windows in the school and so I had glass all over my bed and
that stuff. So that was the only thing that I experienced any sort of battle damage, if you
want to call it that.
Well, later on, of course, the Germans got more sophisticated and we started getting V-1s
coming over, the cruise missiles. And they had, of course, a very distinctive noise. They
sounded like a motorcycle. And, of course, if you go on the gallery by the—on the
Museum outside here, you can see a V-1 cruise missile hanging from the—overhead.
And below that, there is an actual V-1 engine and some very good diagrams that show
you how this pulsejet works. Basically just takes ram air in from the front through a
series of louvers and mixes it with gasoline that’s sprayed into the chamber, and inside
the chamber there’s a sparkplug that sparks all the time. And when the fuel-air ratio
reaches a stoichiometric ratio of 15-to-1, the fuel burns. Some people say it explodes. It
doesn’t really explode; it burns rapidly. And a pulse goes out the tailpipe. And it has to
go out the tailpipe because the pressure rise causes the shutters at the front to shut, so the
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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only place that air can go is out the tailpipe. And that causes the thrust. And as the thrust
goes out the tail, it sucks more air in from the front as the shutters open, and the cycle
starts over again.
So the cycle, as I said, sounds like a motorcycle, about—[makes sound effect]—like that.
Now, the secret was, of course, they fired 3,800 of these things over England, over
Southern England, so we got our fair share of these things that were going over most of
the day and night. But we carried on with our schoolwork, and we just ignored them until
one of the engines stopped. And then as soon as the engine stopped, we’d dive under our
desks, because you knew once the engine stopped the missile was programmed to go into
a dive and explode. And this thing had a ton of war—ton of TNT in the nose. It made a
pretty good bang.
So having survived that, then later on we were subject to V-1 anti—ballistic missiles,
which were a whole different kettle of fish. I should back up a little and say the cruising
speed of the V-1s was 450 miles an hour and the top speed of a Spitfire was about 400
miles an hour. So the only way any of our airplanes could catch these things was in a
dive. So what the British did was have what they call layered defense. So from the
Channel to London, they had an altered balloon barrage, fighters, balloon barrage,
fighters, and eventually, of course, the missiles, the ones that got through got to London.
So we were in the zone where there were fighters, not balloons. So it was very exciting to
see these fighters diving because that’s the only way they could catch these missiles and
strafe them in the air and try and bring them down that way. Very occasionally you’d see
one tip a wing over, but that was not very common. So again, if—it was a most exciting
time, of course. It was like a cricket match. Everybody cheered when one went down and
so on.
Back to the V-1s. These, of course, were supersonic, and nobody, literally, had seen or
heard anything that was supersonic. So it was very mysterious because the bomb went off
with a huge explosion, and then a few seconds later you could hear the missile coming
with a large boom. And, of course, this was a supersonic boom. We couldn’t really figure
out what that second noise was. Most people thought it was an echo or something. But we
had some very smart kids in our class, and we determined that it was the—the missile
went up to 75 miles, and when it reentered, it actually caused a pressure wave in the air
and the pressure wave was what we were hearing.
So we also had kids that were smart enough to—and, of course, the general subject was,
well, of course, these missiles eventually will be used to go in—to the Moon and outer
space because they didn’t need atmosphere. I remember distinctly one of our kids, who
was much brighter than I was, started talking about ion propulsion. Nobody could
understand what he was talking about. And, of course, we couldn’t conceive that
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electrons coming out of the back of a missile would generate enough thrust for
[unintelligible] to propel it through the atmosphere, not realize—remembering, of course,
there was no air or no resistance. So we had some pretty good kids in our school.
JB:
How old were you at that age?
SB:
I was 14.
JB:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SB:
In parallel with this, of course, this school was focused on providing aircrew for the RAF.
So it was an RAF school. Each school—each college had a goal to provide service people
for the war. So we used to get visited by war heroes, primarily RAF fighter pilots, who
came and told us what it was like and so on. In exchange, we used to go to the RAF bases
as a member of the Air Training Corps. And at the air bases, we were taught to fly gliders
because the gliders was a primary way of teaching a pilot the initial way to fly an
airplane. So I got my glider’s license when I was 12 and became an instructor when I was
14.
As the war progressed, we got very severely injured pilots because the Spitfire had an
unfortunate characteristic—[clears throat]—excuse me—of having the fuel tank over the
legs of the pilot. So almost all the pilots were very severely burned when they bailed out.
So the ones that were—and by another strange coincidence, the school at East Grinstead
became the burn center, where I was—I was at school. So that became the first of the
burn treatment centers for these badly burned pilots. So as I said, a lot of them came back
to their air bases and wanted to continue flying, and many of them only had one eye
because they were—they had lost their eye when they were burned. And so I had the
pleasure of teaching these people how to judge distances when they landed these gliders.
They found it extremely difficult to judge the height. So I found that extremely
rewarding, of course, as a 14-year-old teaching these 23-year-olds how to fly airplanes
again. So that was one of my more rewarding things I did when I was 14 and 15.
JB:
When was your first flight?
SB:
My first—
JB:
You had a license at 12 and you were an instructor at 14.
SB:
Yeah. My first flight was when I was 11 or 12, my first solo flight in a glider. This was—
I found it instinctive. It wasn’t at all difficult. They taught you to fly by putting you on
top of a hill and balancing the airplane against the wind on the ground. That’s how you
learned to control the airplane. And afterwards, after that, they got a bungee cord, and
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they catapulted you down the hill, and you did a glide down the hill if you could control
the airplane.
Then they hooked you to a barrage balloon winch. And they had a long runway, and they
towed you up on a winch, and you got up to about 3,000 feet. After a while, they—if it
was windy, they’d play you like a kite. The airplane would just go up like flying a kite.
So we got up to about 3,000 feet and cast off and we found thermals and we’d stay out
for a couple of hours. And we were fortunate enough to fly at a place called Dunstall—
[clears throat]—excuse me—where they had—the wind used to come across the ridge, so
we did ridge soaring. And you could virtually stay up forever just by going up and down
on the ridge like birds did. But eventually you had to come down and land and give
somebody else a turn. So that was my initial gliding experience or flying experience.
00:23:03
[Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army]
SB:
But, of course, by then I was still at grammar school in Sevenoaks. I graduated from
grammar school and went back to my home in Surrey and had to decide what I was going
to do with my life. I decided I didn’t want to go to college. I was more of a hands-on
person. And besides, I was dumb as a rock anyway. So I told my father I wanted to
become an aviation apprentice at Vickers-Armstrongs, which, as I say, was just eight
miles down the road. So there it was ideal for me because it was a four-year graduation—
graduate program, where you spent two days going through the factory learning
engineering skills and three days a week—because it was a five-day week—going to
college, the local college. So I went to college some of the time and went through the
factory the rest of the time.
And, of course, you had to specialize as an apprentice in a particular skill. So I chose to
be—because I enjoyed making model aircraft, I signed up for the wind tunnel
department. So I graduated from wind tunnel—building wind tunnel models into
designing the models and instrumenting them. So I became an instrumentation specialist
in wind tunnel models. And that was extremely interesting because Vickers, as I say, was
a heavy-industry company, so not only did we test out wind tunnel models of airplanes
but also their cruise liners that they were building—by then it was after the war—and
they found that the smoke plumes from the funnels of the ships were going down over the
decks and upsetting the passengers. So we actually did plume tests of smoke going down
over the decks of ships.
I also at that time realized that some of the bridges were becoming subject to
aerodynamic loads, which caused them to sway. And, of course, that’s what happened to
the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. So we put bridges in the wind tunnel and determined how
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you could modify them to stop them swaying in a wind. All these things where
fascinating, you know, and different than just airplanes.
One of the jobs I had to do was to minimize the drag on an Aston Martin sports racing
car, which was going to go and compete at Le Mans, which, of course, was right up my
street. So I got the [unintelligible] of reducing the drag on this Le Mans race car. It
fortunately won its class in Le Mans, so as an award, I was sent down to Goodwood, and
I got to drive this Le Mans-winning car, which again, of course, was right up my street.
So I was very lucky in my life to get all these little perks.
So on graduation, I was—having graduated after four years of this college and education,
went to the British—I was drafted in the National Service of the Army. Because of my
glider experience, I volunteered to go in the Glider Regiment in the Army. I wanted to
fly, but the Air Force, you had to sign up for five years. I didn’t want to sign up in the
military for five years, so I chose the lesser and just signed up for the Army for two years
in the Glider Regiment.
Well, the week I had just signed up for the Glider Regiment, it was disbanded and
everybody was automatically transferred from the gliders to the Parachute Regiment. So I
thought, oh, darn, I didn’t really mean to sign up for the Parachute Regiment. But that’s
how I found myself as a parachutist. So I went through parachute training and—pretty
hard training at Aldershot, where we had to jump through ditches and climb over
boulders and all that stuff. And finally got my—I jumped out of balloons, parachuted
with a static line straight down onto balloons, and that worked okay.
Going on my ninth jump out of a Handley Page Hastings, I broke both my legs in a
high—very high wind, which was a bit of luck because I didn’t have to do any
parachuting anymore. So I was transferred to a regiment that developed experimental
parachutes and experimental parachute loads. We dropped heavy loads out of airplanes,
which was a lot more fun than jumping out yourself. So we pushed things like Land
Rovers and jeeps full of classified radar equipment and things like this to see if they
survived the shock.
One monumental occasion, we actually wanted to—the Army wanted to go for the
heaviest drop in the world, so we persuaded the Americans to loan us a C-119, which was
a Flying Boxcar, a twin-engine, twin-boom machine that had a removable tail on it. So
we got—the heaviest load the Army could think of was a D4 Cat bulldozer, which
weighed 20,000 pounds. So I thought, that should do it. So we mounted this bulldozer on
a pallet. All the loads were mounted on pallets. And on the top of the bulldozer, they put
boxes full of parachutes. We had sixteen 60-foot parachutes. And we put it into this C119. And the crew had to get permission from the Pentagon to do this because it was over
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the most—max gross weight of the airplane. So they said, “Okay, just have the pilot and
copilot, and if one of the engines even splutters, we’re going to bail out.” Because that’s
what the Pentagon told them to do.
Well, so we went down over Salisbury Plain in our Land Rovers, and this airplane came
staggering along at about 10,000 feet. At the appropriate time, the drag chute came out of
this thing, was pulled out the back of the airplane. And we—“Well, that’s good. That
worked at least, and the airplane didn’t crash.” And then horror, parachute came off—
out, and it immediately plucked off like a petal of a flower because one parachute was
trying to take 20,000 pounds of load through one shackle. Then another parachute came
out and it broke off. So it came down like this, and all 16 parachutes were floating around
in the air like this, and the bulldozer went zonk, into the ground. And, of course,
completely demolished. Naturally, of course, being in the Army, they chose a bulldozer
that had just been through refurbishment.
So that was one of the funs I had in the Army. After that, we did parachute drops over the
Russian border. And for that, we had to fly below radar altitude across the North Sea and
then pop up and drop parachutes along the Russian front. This was just to find out how
soon they saw us coming. So it was just to tweak the Russians a little bit, that’s all. And
to do that, we used the—I flew with the Americans, so I got really used to the American
Army and had a wonderful time with them. But that’s a whole ‘nother series of stories. I
think I need a rest. [laughs]
JB:
So what do you think about your military service? Was it a positive experience?
SB:
Absolutely. Everybody should do it.
JB:
Everyone.
SB:
Everybody. They need the discipline. And I met the most wonderful people. I was—I
didn’t graduate as an officer or anything. I was with a bunch of—well, coalminers. And
they were tough buggers. I mean, really tough. I mean, I was just a wimp. And I
remember distinctly one of the really tough guys was sitting on his bed darning his socks,
and he dropped his needle and bent—knelt down to pick it up. And we had coco-mats on
the floor. And the needle stuck up [unintelligible], and it went right into his knee. I mean,
right into his knee. So he was in agony, and, of course, everybody else was running
around trying to get the medics and so on. So I knelt down and threaded the needle and
pulled it out. It was sort of like a mouse and a bear—and a lion, you know. So from there
on, this great big—great big guy followed me around like a puppy dog. It was—[laughs]
I was his mascot.
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So yeah, I enjoyed the military service. I made a habit of enjoying everywhere I lived and
everywhere I worked. There’s no point in not enjoying it.
00:32:45
[Guided missile testing in Australia]
SB:
So after being discharged from the Army, I went back to Vickers-Armstrongs because
they guarantee you a job, and got a job as a flight test engineer. And before I went into
the Army, I told Vickers I wanted to emigrate to Canada. So I told—when I went back to
Vickers as a flight test engineer, I worked on the Scimitar, a Navy attack fighter, and got
to go out on the Mediterranean on flights for the Scimitar. I watched them landing over
the deck and so on. That was a lot of fun.
I told them, “I still want to emigrate to Canada.” And they said, “Well, we’re setting up a
community in Australia because we’ve got a contract to do some guided missile testing
in—at Woomera in Australia.” Did I—was I interested in going to Australia instead of
Woomera—I mean, instead of Canada? So by a strange coincidence, I had just married an
Australian, my wife, in 1953, who was a qualified—a nurse, qualified nurse, an RN, and
also a secretary, qualified secretary for a law firm.
So I said, “Well, yes, I would be delighted to go to Australia. My wife happens to be a
company secretary and a qualified nurse, so…” “Oh, well,” they said, “We’ll employ her
as well.” So my wife became the company CEO’s secretary, and I became one of the
junior engineers. We flew out to Australia within three weeks of us being married on a
Handley Page Hastings full of guided missiles. And because it was an air—a military
airplane, we flew—it took us seven days to get to Australia. We flew to Egypt. They
wouldn’t let us fly over India, so we had to fly all around India. And we had to
experience—it was like the guy who left the cockpit window open and the monsoon rain
came through and flooded the autopilot. So we were stuck in Ceylon for two days, that
sort of stuff.
So we finally made it to Australia to Adelaide, where I joined the Weapons Research
Establishment at—in Adelaide. And flew up to—got a nice house in Adelaide and flew
up to Woomera every week on Monday and back every Friday for three years, doing
various kind of missile drops and firing different kinds of missiles, one of which, of
course, was launched out of a B-29, which was a cruise missile. It was dropped out of the
aft bomb bay of the B-29, and we tracked it and see how it performed. And it was a onethird-scale model of a cruise missile.
And there were other missiles that were launched off Canberra bombers and so on. And I
was on the ground looking through this Canberra missile launch through a Scandi, a
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Swiss photo-optic telescope taking pictures of this thing. And lo and behold, behind this
airplane was a UFO. And I thought like, you know, I don’t believe what I’m seeing. So
this thing was—maneuvered behind the airplane back and forward, and it was very hard
to tell how high it was because I had no idea how big it was. So I thought, that’s really
weird. So after thinking about it a long time, in the mess that evening, I sat down and
started to tell my buddy across the table what I had seen, and one of the base security
officers said, “Please don’t say anymore. Just come and see me in the morning, would
you?” So I said, “Sure.”
So I went to his office in the morning and said—he said, “Would you please tell me
exactly what you saw and tell me what it did?” So I said, “Sure.” So I described the
maneuvers this thing went through. And he said, “Well, how big was it?” I said, “I have
no idea because I couldn’t really judge the size of it. It was—it appeared to be about the
same size as a Canberra, but it didn’t really change radically in size when it went up and
down, so it was hard to tell.” He said, “Well, I should tell you that your description of the
track of this thing is exactly the same as our radar followed it.” So I thought, well, that’s
really weird. But he said, “I would ask you not to speak to anybody about it.” And he
made me sign an Official Secrets Act. And that was that. And I never really have talked
about it because when I do everybody thinks I’m a bit of a nut. [laughs] So that was a
peculiar phenomenon.
Anyway, so having had a wonderful time in Australia, the contract finally finished after
going through four different kinds of missile testing, and I wanted desperately to stay in
Australia because I liked it so much. But I was unable to find a job, so we were sent back
to England on a cruise ship as an award for being—having stayed behind to close up the
company.
JB:
What was your life like in Australia? What was so attractive about it?
SB:
The freedom of speech, the freedom of choice, of dress, and everybody was very relaxed.
You know, nothing bothered anybody. It was, “Good on you, mate,” that sort of attitude.
They were just great people. And they still are.
I think they’ve got the right priorities in life. They’ve got—they live outdoor a lot
because they’re outdoor people. They like hiking and swimming and fishing and those
things. They’ve got the most wonderful healthcare system. We went back afterwards and
lived there for quite a while after I retired. In fact, we still own a condominium there on
Sydney Harbour. So we spent a lot of time in Australia. Up until this year, we went back
every year for two months when the weather was bad here. So we joined the National
Health System and so on, and it’s absolutely magnificent. And it’s very inexpensive, and
it covers everybody for everything. My wife fell over and broke her shoulder, and they
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covered everything for nothing. So I’m very impressed with the Australians, the
Australian way of life.
JB:
Are you a citizen there?
SB:
Yes, I am. I’m a dual citizen. I only recently became a citizen, though. Every time I went
back through the customs, they used to say, “Why the hell aren’t you a citizen? You
belong here.” So I used to say, “I just haven’t got around to it.” Because the—I didn’t
qualify for—I had to—you had to be a resident there for three years, and all I ever did
was visit. So after going backwards and forwards so long, they finally said, “Oh, to hell
with it. You’ve become a citizen anyway.” So they’ve got that sort of attitude, you know.
They’re quite prepared to bend the so-called laws.
So I really love—and then when they come here, they’re outstanding in the way they
behave and ask questions. They’re very, very curious people. They want to learn all the
time. That’s why I like them. Anyway, so…
00:40:41
[Career with Canadair]
JB:
So you went back to Vickers.
SB:
Yes, I went back to Vickers. And then after that, I told them, “Well, I still want to
emigrate because I can’t stand living in England. It’s too constrained and too narrowminded and, you know, so…” By then, of course, I had bought a house and had a young
baby, a daughter, and I was all set to stay there. My parents were, of course, delighted
that I would come back to England to stay there. And they were horrified when I decided
I was going to go to—emigrate to Canada. Because I saw a job in Canada, Canadair in
Montreal. So I immigrated to Montreal and worked on the Arrow—the Sparrow missile
for the Avro Arrow fighter, interceptor/fighter.
So after about six months—my wife stayed behind in England, sold the house, and came
over and joined me with the young daughter. And we rented a house in a local area. My
wife wanted to join the natives and didn’t want to live in Montreal, where everybody
spoke English. So we moved out to a French-speaking community, which was typical of
my wife, you know. It was really a ridiculous thing to do because they hated English
people. Because in those days, de Gaulle was going through Montreal stirring up all kinds
of hatreds about how the bloody English had screwed them and wouldn’t let them speak
English—I mean, wouldn’t let them speak French. And he was just stirring up
nationalism. And they wanted Canada to break—I mean, Quebec to—excuse me—
Quebec to break away from the rest of Canada and become an independent country,
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which was really stupid. So there was a separatist unit. And they did all kinds of things
like bombing mailboxes and all kinds of terrorist activities, and it got really, really bad.
00:42:43
[Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA
(Airborne Optical Adjunct)]
SB:
So after coming down to America for—to buy instrumentation for the—we instrumented
a Sparrow missile and hung it on a CF-100, which was a twin-engine large
[unintelligible] fighter, and put all the instruments in tanks in the wingtips. So I came
down to America a lot to buy instruments from Ampex, Ampex tape recorders and things
like that, and went to Point Mugu and watched them launching Sparrow missiles and
became quite familiar with the American way of doing things. And after a while,
Diefenbaker, who was the Prime Minister of Canada, decided to cancel the program
because the Americans made him an offer to put Bomarc missiles in Canada instead of
the Avro Arrow. So Boeing made us an offer, “Come to Boeing and work on the Bomarc
instead of the Avro—the Arrow.”
So the Avro program was canceled, and most of the engineers from Canadair went to
Boeing. We all went on a train across Canada, 185 engineers and all their families on one
train going to Seattle via Vancouver. So that’s how I got to the United States. So I came
down here in 1959, and I wasn’t a citizen because Canadair wouldn’t release me. And I
joined the Bomarc program and worked on base installations and was sent by Boeing to
Cape Cod and worked on Cape Cod on and off for three years installing Bomarcs in their
shelters.
I went back to Seattle and was sent to Duluth, Minnesota to do the same things. I worked
on the same thing in Duluth, Minnesota, which was very interesting. It was very cold and
all the rest of it. But it was also another interesting experience. By this time, I—we had a
son. So my son was born in Montreal. And so I’ve got a wonderful son and a wonderful
daughter, of which of whom I’m extremely proud and they’re doing very well in life.
And so we all emigrated to America and used Seattle’s headquarters, of course, because
that’s where Boeing was. But because I was young, had a young family and they weren’t
in school, I volunteered to go and work on the—these Bomarc programs. And after that, I
came back and went for a short time on Minuteman and then came back to Seattle for—
more or less permanently and worked on AWACS. Worked on the AWACS proposal,
which was an extraordinarily interesting experience because I—by then I was a
supervisor in Boeing Manufacturing, and so I became the Manufacturing representative
on the AWACS proposal. So we figured out how we were going to make this thing. So
what we decided to do was we were going to buy a 707 from Commercial cousins, put
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big struts on the tail, and mount a 13-foot-diameter rotodome on top. So the aero—I was
in Aerospace, and we bought the airplane from Commercial. So they modified the
airplane to the extent of putting struts on it in Renton, and the airplane was flown over to
Seattle. We mounted the rotodome on it. And the rotodome was made in Auburn.
And now I was responsible for building the rotodome. And the major component of the
rotodome was the radomes. So the radomes were very large and ovoid in shape. And as I
said, the rotodome complete weighed 13,000 pounds, so it was a very large device that
rotated on a six-foot-diameter ball bearing round on top of these struts. So one of the
things we had to do with the radome was to customize the shape of it. It was built out of
fiberglass and one-and-a-half-inch-thick foam—excuse me, honeycomb core. So the
ladies in Auburn had to lay up this honeycomb with layers of fiberglass on it.
So the actual radome is a lens. And not many people know this, but what happens is the
bullnose of the radome is much thinner than the top. Because what happens is when the
radar entity comes through the radome and the beams are parallel, the sender beams go
straight through. But if you didn’t make the radome into a lens, what would happen is
the—because there’s more resistance of the beams going through at an angle, the beams
tend to be tipped up because the—like it acts as a lens and tips the—so the beam, instead
of being nice and parallel, goes like this. [demonstrates]
So the range was horrible on the initial AWACS until we figured out, if we put layers of
fiberglass starting thin and then making it thicker so there was much as much resistance
going through the core—the bullnose as there is through the top. So then the beams came
out parallel, and it virtually doubled the range of the beam. So this is all transparent, of
course. You can never see this. So this is one of the more interesting things. As a sort of
side adjunct, learning how to make that radome enabled me to make the radome for the
B-29 when I worked on the radome some 60 years later.
Anyway, so back to the AWACS program. So we built 31 AWACS airplanes for the U.S.
Air Force, and then the NATO countries decided they wanted AWACS as well. So being
a Manufacturing manager by then, I—one of the conditions under which NATO countries
would buy the airplane was under what they called offset. And offset was they had to
spend as much money in the host country as Boeing spent on the airplane. So we had to
give them as much money to spend in Europe, and the—for that money, they built the
electronics and then they took the electronics and installed it in the airplane and checked
it out and delivered it to the NATO countries.
So to select which companies were able to do this work, I was part of a team that went to
England, France, and Germany to select the countries to do the work for us. We ended up
selecting Dornier in Munich to do the integration and checkout. We selected [Siemens?]
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to build the various parts, and all over the—Germany, they were building various parts
for the airplane. However, the radar, of course, was still built by Westinghouse in
America. So as a result of this, I spent many flights going across the Atlantic working
with Dornier, getting them checked out on how to do this checkout of the electronics and
flight-test the airplane and check it out.
So during these trips, I—being a sports car enthusiast, I made a point of going to a
Porsche factory and buying up parts for a sports racing car that I built. So there were only
20 of these cars built by the factories. The factory was very excited to provide me with all
these non-obtainable parts, which I then flew back with me on the airplane back to
Seattle. And it became so obvious after about 15 of these trips, the customs people said,
“We’ve finally got you figured out. You’re bringing a car back piece by piece, aren’t
you?” I said, “Yeah, you caught me. Yes, I am.” [laughs] So they just laughed about it,
you know. This was the good old days. And incidentally, I took a windshield the other
way, back to Germany, and they could not figure out what my devious plan was to take a
cracked windshield back to Germany. So, you know, these are the fun days going through
customs, where the guys were reasonable and they had a joke about stuff.
JB:
Yeah.
SB:
Quite different now. So anyways, after the AWACS contract was satisfactorily completed
and I had to go to the Hague and talk to the native countries and went through the
instantaneous translation and things like that—it was very stressful, although somewhat
fun, to describe to us—to them how we were doing on the program and represented
Boeing management. That was educational, to put it mildly.
So I went back to Seattle after the end of that contract, and by then the Air Force came to
us and said, “The Japanese have approached us. They want to put—they want to buy
some AWACS, but they want to put it on a more modern airframe.” So we designed an
airplane which was—I’m sorry. I missed a whole thing. The Saudis came and wanted
AWACS, too. But they wanted different engines on the airplane, so we put CFM56
engines on the airplane to make it more fuel efficient. So I got to negotiate the contract
with the Saudis, and that was quite a different experience, trying to teach the Saudis. And
you can’t teach the Saudis anything. They know it all. So that was interesting.
Also, negotiating with the Saudis on why it cost so much to put different engines on the
airframe. So we experienced the thing like we’d have these Saudis lined up at the table
like this and Boeing—the Air Force would be on the other side because we weren’t
allowed to talk to the Saudis. We had to do it through the Air Force. But behind every
Saudi was an Englishman. So the Saudis would ask them—the Air Force a question, and
the Air Force would turn around to ask for the answer. We’d tell them the answer, they’d
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turn around to the Saudis, and then the Saudis would have to turn around to the English
people and say, “What did the guy mean?” So this was the negotiation for the AWACS
airplane for the Saudis.
The main bone of contention was why it cost so much money to change the engines from
TF33s to CFM56s. And they found out that, during the proposal I worked on, the original
AWACS airplane had eight engines. It was going to take off on eight and then cruise on
four for efficiency. Because it was a maintenance nightmare—it was a ridiculous idea—
so the Air Force made us, on paper, change the engines from TF33 eight engines to TF33
four engines. And somehow the Saudis found out about how much that cost. So they
asked the Air Force, “If it only costs that much, why does it cost this much?” And the Air
Force’s answer was, “Well, I’m sorry, but all the records have been destroyed and we
don’t know how much it cost originally.”
So this answer was transmitted back to the British. And the Saudis’ answer to the Air
Force—our Air Force was, “It sounds like you’re running a corner grocery store,” which
was a typical English expression. [laughs] And the Americans said, “What do you
mean?” So we had to tell them what “running a corner grocery store” meant. This is—
you know, this was a negotiation for a multimillion dollar contract. It was insane.
[laughs]
Anyway, so we finally convinced the Saudis, and they came to America, of course, to
watch how we were building the airplane. And we showed them the people building the
707 in Renton, and, of course, there were a lot of women building the airplane. And they
came to me and said, “We can’t have that. We can’t have women working on the
airplane.” I said, “That’s what you bought. Too bad. If you don’t like it, you know, go
somewhere else.” And so this sort of attitude was just totally incredible. I found, anyway.
JB:
What an experience, though.
SB:
Yes.
JB:
Yeah.
SB:
Well, finally we got this contract to build the Japanese AWACS. And that was a twinengine airplane, and all we did was build it and deliver it. I had nothing to do—negotiate
with the Japanese, really.
And finally I—after the end of the AWACS program, I went on to AOA, which was a
very interesting program. And that turned out to be a—we took the prototype 767, which
was a twin engine, put a large cupola on top, and in that cupola, which was a box, we had
a window on the side which opened up. And the trick to seeing out through an open
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cavity like that—because what happens, the airflow across the cavity is very turbulent,
and turbulent air acts as a lens. It completely upsets the viewing through the air as it
passes over this open cavity.
So we developed in our wind tunnel a system called an aero-optical window. So what did
is we took air in through the front of the cupola, and by carefully diverting it into a slot
upstream of the window, we produced a laminar flow of air across the window and
recaptured it on the downstream side, so the telescope looked out through a completely
clear laminar flow of air. And that technique is still being used today on some airplanes
that are looking at the stars through telescopes. So that technique was very innovative.
So we developed that, which made the telescope, which was the—and this is still highly
classified. Not what I’m going to tell you, but a lot of the processing stuff. It was made
by Hughes in El Segundo, California. They developed the sensor, which was an infrared
sensor, which was able to sense three different infrared spectrums. The telescope itself
was made by an optical country—company. It’s a name I—I always botch it up because it
sounds like Ikea. I think it’s some—it’s an optical telescope company, anyway. And
watched them grounding—ground these perfect mirrors for—that went inside this
telescope. It was all taken back to Hughes and assembled in this device, which was
probably about, oh, five feet in diameter. It was fairly heavy, and it was mounted on a
gimbal system so it could track like this. [demonstrates]
And it was tested in one of the labs in Hughes, and I was responsible for moving this
thing from Hughes up to Seattle on a truck. This thing was worth $26 million. So because
I was the Manufacturing manager and I had the transportation people under me, we had
to design a way of moving this thing, as I said. So we designed a package. It was
mounted on a lowboy truck with air ride suspension. The Army insisted we put brandnew tires on this thing, so we put brand-new tires on it. We backed it into this secret
facility at Hughes, and to get this thing in there, we had to open the roof and—to get this
thing out. And lo and behold, we had to wait until the Russian satellite had gone over,
because every time they moved anything like that, they had to wait for the Russian spy
satellites to get out of the way. So that was something I didn’t know.
Anyway, so we finally got this thing on the truck. And we went through the whole plan
over and over and over again on exactly how we were going to move it, what route we
were going, who were the drivers, what sort of an escort we wanted. And they wanted to
put the FBI with an armored car in front and a series of armored FBI vans of Special—
not FBI, but Special Forces people. I said, “No. For goodness sake, you might as well put
a marching band in front of this thing with a banner saying, ‘Here’s a secret payload
going down the highway.’”
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So we did away with all that stuff and just had a truck with a box over it, which was
bulletproof, because we found that when we were moving Minuteman missiles to the
bases, the kids used to shoot at these missiles—or shoot at the trailers. And they put the
star—the Air Force star right over the payload where the expensive guidance system was,
and these kids used to shoot at the star and hit the navigation system.
Anyway, so we had this plain box, which was lined with Kevlar inside in case somebody
shot at this thing. And I learned, the reason they went through all those things, there were
actually people up in the mountains in Oregon that were right-wing radicals, I guess
you’d call them, that came down periodically and did these sort of things. I had
absolutely no idea this was going on. So we drove up the highway, and we had a wideload car in front, just like any other truck, with a relief driver in it. And I was riding in the
truck with the other driver. And so I learned to ride in an 18-wheeler all the way up from
[Seattle?]. That was another great experience.
So we finally arrived in Seattle and everything was fine. We unloaded and everybody
said, “Oh, thank goodness for that.” So we put it—lift it up on the airplane and put it into
the cupola and did some checkout on it. Everything checked all right. So we had a huge
contingent from Hughes working with us all the time because they operated the sensor.
We had whole displays inside the airplane.
So after some preliminary checkout, we flew it to Kwajalein in the South Pacific and flew
it 45—47,000 feet, which is way above what the normal 767 could fly, and we did that by
over-boosting the engines by 18 percent. So we were flying at 48—47,000 feet. And this
is “coffin corridor” because the airplane doesn’t want to really fly at that altitude, so we
got the most experienced Boeing test pilot to fly this airplane at that altitude. And we
popped the window open, and they launched a Minuteman from Vandenberg. And this
[unintelligible] came over the horizon, and we saw it come over the horizon. We saw it
deploy its decoys and three warheads, and watched the warheads go in different
directions and watched the decoys go away. And I won’t tell you how we did it, but we
actually could in fact establish tracks on the warheads, although we “didn’t do that” [air
quotations] because it was a violation of the treaty with the Russians.
So it was one of the more exciting projects I was involved with. And that was another
extremely successful program. And it was a lot of fun flying out of Kwajalein. And, of
course, the crew was—always said, “Well, we can’t possibly make it back to Seattle. We
have to land in Hawaii.” Of course, that wasn’t true, but we did. We established a base in
Hawaii with a—we took over the penthouse suite on top of one of the hotels and used
that as a command center, as a radio relay station. So my wife joined me in Hawaii, and
she spent some time up in the penthouse suite with me. So it was—you know, I told you,
I have great fun wherever I go. So… [laughter]
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JB:
You certainly do.
01:04:44
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work]
SB:
So after that, I—they asked me to come to South Korea because South Korea wanted to
buy AWACS. So I went up to my buddies in Everett and said, “You guys have just sold a
helicopter to South Korea. How was it?” They said, “Don’t have anything to do with it.”
The whole thing is preordained. You go there and select the companies and then they just
turn around and put them wherever they want to, because the government tell where the
work’s going to be done. So it was an absolute catastrophe. They were doing highquality, cleanroom-environment hydraulics in a dirt shack. So they said, “Don’t have
anything to do with it.”
So I decided to retire. It was time for me to retire anyway. I retired from Boeing and
finished building my—one of my sports racing cars. When that was finished, I decided I
would join The Museum of Flight. So I joined The Museum of Flight in about 19—2004
or something like that and went through docent training class, became a docent, and
really enjoyed that for two or three years.
And decided I—I was still working on my sports cars, so I decided I’d like to do some
more hands-on work. So after selling my last car, I went up to Everett and talked to Tom
Cathcart [Director of Aircraft Collections and Restoration at The Museum of Flight] and
said, “I would like to work on something.” So he said, “Well, how about the Comet?
You’re English.” And so I said, “That sounds good.” But I said, “I don’t really want to
drive from Bellevue up to Everett every day. Don’t you have anything nearer?” So he
said, “Well, as a matter of fact, we do. We have a whole tail of the B-29 is sitting in
Renton waiting for somebody to restore it. And we have—also, that’s where the B-17 is.”
I said, “Well, that sounds just up my street.” He said, “Well, why don’t you go down to
Renton and take a look at it and talk to Herb Phelan, who’s the project manager down
there?”
I talked to Herb, and lo and behold, I met Herb, who I used to work with on AWACS all
those years before. So I’ve known Herb for like 50 or 60 years. I worked with him on
AWACS as—I was the Manufacturing manager, and he was one of the Engineering
managers installing electronics. So it was like Old Home Week. So he said, “Well, hell,
you know what to do. You just—so you become the project manager on the tail of the B29.” I spent three years at Renton completely restoring the tail of the B-29. And it was
completely gutted because after the—this particular B-29, T-Square, left the Air Force
infantry—didn’t leave it. It was assigned to be modified as a tanker. So it was modified
as an aerial tanker with a boom out the back. So to do that, they took the whole oxygen
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supply of the tail gunner out, they took the lower aft tail turret out, they took all the
ammunition storage for the tail turret out, all of the pressure bulkheads out, the armor
plating, all of the windows. They completely gutted the tail. And my job was to restore
all that back to what it used to look like before it was converted into a tanker.
So it was a monumental job. And I had some absolutely fabulous help, obviously. I got
people to build me bulletproof windows, and I got somebody—a friend of mine who was
a—ran a very upgrade car restoration company, we actually took the tail turret down
there, and he [unintelligible] wheel and rolled a complete dome for the back where the
guns penetrate through, so it enabled the guns to penetrate through and vertically move
and swivel side to side. It was just a—just absolute fantastic craftsmanship.
And as a help, I got the Wind Tunnel Department to build all the rack and pinion gears
for—that operated the guns up and down and moved them side to side. So another friend
of mine—became a friend of mine, Don—Dale Thompson, who you interviewed the
other day, completely designed the control system, the computers that controlled all this
stuff. So now we have the only B-29 in the world where the guns can actually be elevated
and traversed all from the central fire control system. So that’s what I was doing early on
on the restoration of the B-29.
JB:
You’ve got about 16,000 hours in here as a volunteer?
SB:
Yes. Yes.
JB:
How rewarding do you find the Museum?
SB:
Well… [laughs]. I started, of course, coming down here from Bellevue, and then I went
to a retirement community down in Lacey, near Olympia, so that’s 60 miles away. So I
cut down my visits quite substantially because I have a—I happen to have a completely—
a fully equipped workshop in my garage, which I had in Bellevue. I’ve got a lathe and a
mill and virtually all the things I need to do all my own machining. So I did all that in
Bellevue, but then I decided I could just as well do that in Olympia.
So all the machine work I did—and I did a lot of it—I was able to do without coming to
the Museum at all. And when I finished something, I’d take it up to the Museum and
install it. Like I built all the bomb racks, and that was all built in my shop in Olympia
with a friend of mine’s help. And I got some of the heavy-duty work done in the—by
Machinists Incorporated in Seattle. They bent up all the very heavy girders that carried
the load of these bombs, and we reassembled them in my shop and did all the—installed
all the hundreds of rivets, installed all the shackles and releases and all the devices that go
along with releasing the bombs, and brought them one at a time back up to the shop here.
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And Dale Thompson wired all of the bomb releases up, and so that’s that job. We finally
installed them in the airplane.
At that time, the B-29 was wrapped in—as a cocoon with a complete—so we couldn’t
open the bomb bay doors. So everybody said, “How the hell—you can’t install the bomb
racks if you can’t open the doors.” I said, “The hell we can’t.” So we threaded them up
through the access hatch in the front, along through the pilot’s compartment, down
through the pressurized door in the forward bomb bay, and down in through the—into the
bomb bay through that way. And all the guys were standing inside the bomb bay with the
doors closed. Then we installed them in there with the doors closed. Then we finally
installed all four of them in there.
And afterwards, I said, “Well, I’ll build the bombs for them.” So a friend of mine—
became a friend of mine—had built 10 bombs for the B-17. So I took all over his
tooling—he happened to be another English guy—I took over his tooling and went to the
same supplier he did to get the casings for the bombs, which where a supplier of the
Alaska Pipeline material down in Seattle. And he happened to have a load of pipeline
material that fell off a truck and was dented. So he gave me these casings for the bombs
and cut them all to length. So the really hard part of building the bombs were done by this
factory, and he then donated all this—all these people donated all this stuff to us. So we
got another shop to help us build the fins and built all the fins and made all the tail fuses.
And that took hours and hours and hours because tail fuses and nose fuses consist of
hundreds of parts. And I got a friend to make the molds for the nose fairing of the bomb
and the tail fairing of the bomb. That was done at a five-axis machine shop down in
Auburn. And this guy, Steve Kidd, in the end did so much work for us, he must have
donated at least $100,000 of his labor, just an incredible help to the Museum and can’t
say enough good things about him.
And he finally came day before yesterday and videotaped the installation—the final
installation of these bombs on these bomb racks. So finally we closed the loop and
actually installed the bombs the day before yesterday, which was quite an event, believe
me. In the meantime, of course, I got to build several other things the—of the airplane.
All of the exhaust pipes. The radial engines have two exhaust pipes: one inboard, one
outboard. And these things are about this big around, and they come around like this.
[demonstrates] And they were all missing. So I got Steve Kidd to make the molds on his
five-axis machines for this shape, both on an inboard and outboard. So I built nine
exhaust pipes for the—one of which became an exhibit on the ground. It was just cutaway and shows how the turbocharger works. So it’s a portable exhibit, which was the
ninth exhaust pipe.
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So I built exhaust pipes. Then I took on a really tricky job of building radome for the
airplane because Dale Thompson had refurbished the radar antenna for the airplane, so
we knew this airplane needs to have a radar antenna, which was a—look straight down,
and it was assisting in bomb dropping, blind bomb dropping. So you had to make a
radome for this thing since it was missing. It was missing because, in the past, they had
taken all this stuff out and they had just put a crude patch over where this radome was.
So I got a sheet of Mylar and I marked off where the holes were where the original
radome attached. So I then was able to produce the plan view of what the radome looked
like. And a friend a mine went and took pictures, digital pictures of a B-29 with a bombdropping radar on it with a radome. He took a side view of the radome, so I got the side
profile. Then he took a head-on view of the radome, so I got a nose front-on profile. And
I took them downstairs in this building and projected onto the wall of the classroom until
it was the full-size picture, and then I traced the picture on the wall and made a side
profile of the radome. And I did it the other way and did the head-on profile of the
radome. And then I got a large sheet of plywood, and I cut the plan profile out, and I cut
the side profile out this way and made bulkheads this way. [demonstrates] And then I got
my old tooling—lofting experience and I blended all the lines in between the front and
the back and the top and the bottom and made this bathtub shape of the tool to build this
radome in. And I made it in two halves so I could separate it.
So after I lathed up the radome—as I said, I lathed it up just like the AWACS radome,
using half-inch honeycomb core instead of one-and-a-half inch. I formed it inside the
radome, lathed up fiberglass, and all around the top I cut out little segments and put solid
core in, so there were solid blocks all the way around the outside. This is where the attach
points were to bolt it to the airplane. So we popped it out of the mold, separated it, came
out, went up to Everett to be painted. And I shaped it. I made another model of the—what
the bottom of the airplane looked like out of steel. And I popped this thing on this steel
model, and I carved it away until it fitted perfectly on this curved bottom of the airplanes.
So this odd shape fitted around the bottom of the airplane, so when we put it up against
the bottom, it fitted perfectly. So I was very pleased about that.
JB:
You did all of that without prints.
SB:
Without drawings. No idea—[crosstalk].
JB:
Without any kind of drawings. What about the tail section and your APU exhaust and all
that?
SB:
Nothing, nothing. You know, it was—we had no drawings of any of that stuff. There
were a few things we did have drawings of. The bomb racks, we had drawings for. So we
knew how to—I knew how to make the big fittings that bolted to the airplanes. I had
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drawings of all that stuff. And I had copies—Herb Phelan lent me the hooks out of the B17, and I took them down because I had to build 70 of those things out of three-eighths
steel. I wasn’t about to hacksaw this stuff out.
So my friend Steve Kidd found a company he knew in Kent. They would waterjet-cut
these things for me. So they did all this for me for nothing because Steve Kidd asked
them to. So all that sort of things he did for me that would have been horrible—a horrible
job to make 70 of these things by hand. So I got them all perfect for nothing. Again, up in
Everett, they did all the plating for me for nothing. So companies are wonderful in the
way they support the Museum. The Museum has such a great reputation of being
something worthwhile to do work for, so it’s very—it makes you very proud and pleased
to work at a place like this. And also such a privilege to work on these airplanes that
become part of the American heritage. You know, it’s beyond description of how—when
somebody comes and says—when you’re a docent, you know, you worked on this
airplane and they say, “Well, thank you so much for saving a national treasure like that,”
it really gets to you. It makes it all worthwhile. I don’t want to get emotional or anything
like that. [laughs]
JB:
What are you working on now?
SB:
I’m working—
JB:
You got your bombs done.
SB:
Well, I’ve got the bombs done and installed, but I’m working on, with Dale, an electronic
warfare system. So this is a—believe it or not, in World War II, they actually monitored
the frequency of the radars that were shooting antiaircraft fire at the airplane. And all
these guns were radar controlled. So they’d get the frequency with an antenna of these—
of the fire control radars, and once—they had frequency scanning, so once they
determined—and Dale’s making all this stuff, and I’m making all the antennas and the
installation of this stuff. So we’re actually putting the antiaircraft anti-system on the
airplane. So that’s what I’m working now on, the anti-electronic warfare system.
So, you know, it will never, never stop. It’ll never end. [laughter] People say, “When will
it be finished?” I say, “Not in my lifetime.” We’ll always keep doing it, and when we get
through, we’ll go back and do things better. So it’s a—you know, a career for somebody.
And that’s part of the difficulty, to find young people who want to step up and start doing
this stuff. So it’s nice to find younger people who are interested. And we are slowly doing
that.
01:22:18
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[Achievements and notable moments from his career]
JB:
Over the years in your careers, tell us about the awards you’ve received.
SB:
Oh. [laughs] Well, I got awards for things like moving the AOA sensor from—because
the Army was so worried about it. I got a commendation and a big wooden plaque for it.
And I was AWACS Employee of the Year several of the years and things like that. Just
normal stuff. And I got—when I worked at the Museum, of course, I got just an award for
living long, I guess, the 10,000-hour award, for spending two—10,000 hours, which is
sort of a lifetime, on working on the airplanes and being a docent. That was some years
ago, so I’m way above 10,000 hours now. I’m more like 12,000 or 14,000 hours. But
it’s—every one has been fun, so I’ve enjoyed it.
JB:
What about special events or memories in all your travel? Been all over the world, seen a
lot of stuff. You must have some memories that really stand out.
SB:
Yes, I do. Very much so. It’s hard to know where to start. I think probably one of the
things that stood out was flying on demonstration flights with AWACS over Germany to
demonstrate the capability of AWACS—over Germany and France. Ironically, just
before we arrived in France, it was either Lockheed or North American, I can’t remember
which, had taken their Navy AWACS airplane over to France. And it also was a
shipborne AWACS with a rotating radome on top. And when they fired it out—up, it shut
down the entire French television system. So the French said, “Hey, no way. We don’t
want that thing here.”
So we followed them with our AWACS airplane, and the French provided fighters as
targets that came through the Alps at low level and then popped up. And we were—our
mission was to see how soon we could see these fighters coming through the Alps, which
was very exciting, both for them and for us. And we were able to see the fighters long
before they thought we could. With our filtering systems, we’d actually see them coming
through the Alps at low altitude. So that was one thing.
The other thing, though, that really sort of amused me and—our program manager
would—Mark [unintelligible] was on the airplane. He was a very good salesman and a
very nice guy, and I was his right-hand man. And I remember this Luftwaffe general
looking at this scope, and it showed the Autobahn, and it showed high-speed traffic going
down the Autobahn. And this German general said, “Well, is that a Porsche or a
Mercedes?” And Mark said, “Well, we haven’t got that far. We haven’t figured that out
yet.” So he said, “Well, how do you know the traffic?” And he said, “Well, we have a
filter on the airplane so that we don’t normally track anything that’s going below—I
mean, below 100 miles an hour. Only things that are going above 100 miles an hour do
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we track. Otherwise, we’d be completely caught up with all the cars going every which
way.” So he said, “We’ve done this so we can track helicopters at low altitude.”
So the Luftwaffe guy said, “Well, we’re just crossing over this intersection, so how do I
know that’s where we really are?” So Mark said, “Well, just look out of the window.” So
they looked out of the window, and sure enough, there were two Autobahns crossing. He
said, “Okay. I’m sold.” [laughs] That sort of thing, which is—I found very amusing. And
I’m sure I could think of some others, but…
01:26:38
[Advice for young people]
JB:
What advice would you give to a young person today?
SB:
Oh, that’s a good question. It’s very difficult because you can’t really advise old
people—young people with being an old 90-year-old. But I—and my wife, ever since we
were married, is—I’m very outspoken and say things I regret later. And my wife always
has to go around and sweep up after me. I remember going to a dinner where a very good
nurse friend of my wife’s was having a dinner party. And her daughter was there with her
boyfriend, and they were sitting at the table. And they sort of said the same thing, you
know, “What advice…?”
I asked them, “Well, what are you doing in college?” And this woman said, “I’m
studying software programming,” or something, and this guy said, “Well, I’m doing
something in the other…” Technologist like this. And I said, “For crying out loud,
doesn’t anybody get a real job anymore?” And they said, “What do you mean?” I said,
“You know, something that contributes to the national—gross national product. I mean,
how does shuffling paperwork between you two do anything for the economy?” I said,
“You ought to do something that’s—that contributes.” And they said, “Hell, you’re just
an old guy who just don’t understand.”
So sort of that stopped me from giving advice to young people. It’s very hard to
communicate to people who’ve got such a different base in what their world is like. But I
do enjoy—I did enjoy talking to people in—as a docent, young people and answering
questions that they had, because they had some very—so I guess my advice would be try
anything, just keep trying things. Don’t settle for one—don’t get into a rut. And be happy
with one thing you’re doing. When you get a career, make sure you know that’s really
what you want to do for the rest of your life. And I know that’s easy to say and not so
easy to do.
01:28:57
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[Car restoration and sports racing]
JB:
Any subjects we’ve missed? Any topics we should be talking about that—
SB:
Well, only sports cars, of course. [laughs]
JB:
Sports cars.
SB:
I have a whole different parallel life. [laughter] My first work with restoration, of course,
was with cars. And I started in—back in Australia when I first visited there with helping
my friend restore an old Riley, and that sort of got me the bug. But when I came back to
America, I finally got the chance of having a bit of money and buying cars that I thought
were worth restoring, only from a satisfactory point of view, not from a monetary point
of view.
So I became president of the Porsche Club and—[bumps microphone] Sorry about that. I
bought a sports rally car from Italy, which is a 1973 RS Carrera, and spent a lot of time
restoring it and a lot of fun restoring it. When it was finished, I entered into sports racing
down in California and bought a transporter for it and did sports racing all up and down
the coast. And I found out later that this became a sort of an icon car, became the 911 to
own. Out of all the Porches in all the surveys they’ve done, this is number two of any
Porsche that all the Porsche enthusiasts want to own. By sheer coincidence. I had no idea
this car was going to be worth quite a bit of money. I didn’t buy it for that reason. So I
eventually sold it for $500,000 and then decided I would buy some other car.
So I was pitting it with my friend who owned a 1926 Bugatti down in Laguna Seca. And
the radio said that he—they wanted to sell an engine from a car that he was driving
because he blew up his engine. So the guy went to see this man, and the guy said, “Well,
I’ve got this engine, but it’s in this car and I want to sell the whole thing.” So I said,
“Well, you buy the engine. I’ll buy the car.” Well, it turned out to be a very, very rare
Porsche 904 sports racing car. So I bought this sports racing car, and he bought the
engine. And I paid $13,000 for this car.
And as I said, when I worked for Boeing, I was constantly going back to Germany, so I
finally bought enough parts to rebuild the engine. And the engine itself now is worth
$50,000. So I got my friend to build this engine for me for nothing, just because he’d
never built one of those engines before and he wanted to put it in his résumé that he had
built one of these engines, which is very exotic, the twin overhead cam, two-liter, fourcylinder engine, if that means anything to anybody, which put out about 250 horsepower,
which is a lot of horsepower for a two-liter engine. And it was also a mid-engine, so I
also raced this car up and down the coast. And finally a buyer from Japan came and said
he wanted to buy it for a museum in Japan, so they made me an offer I couldn’t refuse.
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So it went to Japan and was in a museum there for quite some time, until I—and they
gave me all the BS about it was a national treasure, it would never leave Japan. I thought,
[makes sound effect]. So sure enough, four years ago, it was sold to Germany, went to
Germany. Then I found out a very rich couple in Connecticut went over to Germany and
bought this car for $1.6 million. So this is the car I sold for $100,000 to Japan, was sold
for $1.6 million, which made me feel fine.
So I then, as a retirement project, bought a Porsche, a 1957 Porsche Speedster, which was
a—sort of the ultimate cult car, which was because it was cute. I didn’t buy it because it
was cute. I bought it because I like them. And it was one of those ironies. It became a cult
car because it did look cute. It was—all the women liked it, so—it was made by Porsche
as the least expensive car to compete with the British cars. So it was sold in America for
$3,000. I bought this car for $3,000, which was a wreck. It was rusty and so on. So I
spent my first three years of my retirement building that car and competing with it and
winning awards for it with the Porsche Cup. So that was my sort of side career, which
was going on in parallel with my work career, to answer your question.
01:34:17
[Legacy of restoration work]
JB:
So in 50 years, if someone is researching, what would you like to leave them with?
They’re researching and they watch yours—your oral history.
SB:
I think I’d like to almost repeat what I’ve said before, that—as I said during the 10,000hour award ceremony, it’s—the Museum spent all this time thanking us volunteers for all
the work we do on the airplane, but we really should be thanking the Museum for
allowing us to work on these airplanes. Because, like I said, it—I personally feel like it’s
hopefully building something that’s going to last—forever’s a long time, but a long time.
Hopefully at least 50 years, and will be valued by people in 50 years’ time and
appreciated by them. And I hope that they will wonder who did this work and be able to
reflect on that I contributed in some way to that.
And just as a sort of side issue on that, one of my projects, when I was doing—working
on the landing gear doors, I ended up with a nice little box, which was a simulated
transducer that told the pilot whether the doors were open or closed or not. So in that box,
with permission from everybody, I made a time capsule. So I put some CD-ROMs in
there and some sticks and some paperwork—I didn’t know what technology would be
available when they finally open this thing up—on all the work that all the guys had done
on the airplane, who they were and what their backgrounds were. And so hopefully in 50
years, somebody stumbles across the thing and opens it up, and maybe they can decipher
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what these funny old memory sticks are. So that’s something I left for the future. So
that’s—I hope that answered your question.
JB:
Yeah. That’s very good. Any questions?
01:36:42
[Stories from Army service]
KELCI HOPP:
I have one question. My question jumps back a little bit. I just wanted to
follow up. When you were talking about working with the Americans dropping
parachutes on the Russian front, you said that there are a lot of stories that go along with
that. And I didn’t know if maybe you could tell us one.
SB:
Well, sure. These payloads were considered by the British Army as sort of classified.
They weren’t secret, but the technology in providing the shock-absorbing equipment and
so on was restricted. So we had to take these payloads to an American Army—Air Force
base and put them in these C-119 troop carriers. So we had to stay in the barracks where
the Americans were with them.
So one night we were in the barracks, and we were sleeping, and all of a sudden there
was a burst of machine-gun fire. We thought, what the hell is this? This is in England.
[laughs] This wasn’t in some foreign country. And so the next morning we went down to
breakfast, and there was a GI MP that people were standing around and giving him all
kinds of razz. And we said, “What’s going on?” So they said, well, this burst of machinegun fire, this guy, he was on—patrolling at midnight around the base and stuck his head
around the corner of the hangar and seen somebody around the other side, so he called
out, “Halt, who goes there?” And no response. And he said, “If you don’t come out, I’ll
fire.” And, of course, all the guards on the base had live ammunition because of the
payloads and stuff. So still no response. So he was like, “I jumped out around the corner
of the hangar and let fire into the side of the base commander’s car.” Because he had seen
his own reflection in the moonlight in this side of this guy’s car. So he riddled the
commander’s car from one end to the other. So we all thought that was pretty typically
American, pretty crazy. [laughter]
So that was the sort of thing I was talking about. But anyway, we got on famously with
the Americans. One of the things we did, being in the Parachute Regiment, when we were
stationed near the American base, we were told that we wanted—they wanted us to go
and attack the base, see if we could get onto the base. And we said, “Okay. We’ll give it a
try.” We used to go downtown and have fights with the Americans in the local bars, these
tough Welshmen I was telling you about. So we decided, now how are we doing to do
this? We never—we’ll never be able to do a frontal attack. So we went down to the local
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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fire station, and we commandeered a local fire engine. So we drove through the gates
with the fire bell and the lights on the firetruck and the bell ringing, and they just opened
the gates and let us through. So we drove to the control tower and said, “Here we are. We
won.” And they said, “What—you can’t do that. That’s not fair.” So we had a good laugh
at their expense. And they said, “Ah, well, I guess you’re right. You can’t play fair
always.” So that sort of thing was what I was talking about. Does that answer your
question?
KH:
Yeah, absolutely. I only had the one.
01:40:12
[Side projects at Boeing]
PEDER NELSON: I guess I have just one question. As we’ve been doing the additions to the
Destination Moon exhibit, we’ve—and the additions to the Apollo exhibit coming up,
we’ve been learning a lot about the Lunar Orbiter program that was based out of the same
building that the Bomarc program was.
SB:
Right.
PN:
Did you have any experience in that building and did those who worked in that building,
did they understand the history of that building as well, as a part of Seattle history?
SB:
I can’t answer your question directly because, no, that was happening long after I was
working on other programs with Boeing. But while I was there, Boeing did operate and
develop the hydrofoil boat. They developed first with a little boat they called the Little
Squirt, and then they built a full-size boat for the Navy, which flew on hydrofoils and had
a rapid-firing gun on the front. And that’s another whole side story, but I was assigned
while I was on AWACS to go down to Litton in California to work with their Advanced
Marine Technology Division to get, quote, “close to the Navy.”
So my boss at that time was an ex-World War II submarine commander. He was a—had
a fleet of submarines he was responsible for that put coast watches on the islands in the
Pacific to watch for Japanese traffic. So he was a really experienced Navy guy who
worked for Boeing. So we went down to El Segundo and helped Litton design the basic
point defense system for their destroyer, this new DD-963 destroyer. So I got to work
with the Navy on installing an anti-missile system on a destroyer. And to do that, we
went down to Pascagoula, Mississippi and watched them building ships. So that was
another little side trip I took, which was interesting.
And, of course, I had lots of interesting experiences with the Navy guys. This old sea
captain was very smart because he realized that the way to get the Navy’s attention was
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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to hire the most gorgeous secretary he could come up with. So our joint secretary we
shared used to wear yellow plastic miniskirts, and she was built like a brick outhouse. So
all the time the Navy guys were coming down to talk to my boss, theoretically, of course,
they were—to look at this young lady. So that’s the sort of characters I worked with.
And there’s another side issue. It was sort of a tragedy, was this guy had his—a wife in
Seattle who—they had collectively a daughter who was an award-winning journalist for
The Seattle Times. Bobbi McCallum, her name was. And she was a—won a Pulitzer
Prize. And for the awards ceremony, she went to a local dermatologist to have her skin
planed. And on the way to this procedure, she was involved in a very minor traffic
accident. And when they sat her on the chair to do this sanding of her face, they gave her
a local anesthetic. And the guy went out of the room to—while this anesthetic—and she
went into cardiac arrest in the chair and died.
And, of course, his wife, who was legally blind, was in Seattle, and he was an absolute
basket case. And I had to take him back to Seattle. It was a shocking experience. It was
so unexpected and shocking. So this poor guy, I had to take him back to Seattle. I
personally had to lead him by the hand through the airport. He was so distraught. That
was a very emotional experience. Nothing to do with airplanes, obviously. So those sort
of things happened. Anything else? That doesn’t answer your question at all.
But working at that place, incidentally, they also produced windmills there. And that was
the largest windmill the government experimented in, went down in Long Beach—no,
not Long Beach. Anyway, I can’t remember the name of the place. We also built the
unmanned trains for the University of—I can’t remember now. So we built unmanned
trains down there, too. So we built a lot of odd things in that building.
PN:
So that was all the Boeing—all those different side Boeing projects?
SB:
Yeah, right. So the oddball things were done there. Then we finally turned the Boeing
back—the building back to the government. It was never to belong to Boeing. It was
always on loan. So I wasn’t aware of anything that you were talking about. Afraid it
doesn’t answer your question.
PN:
Oh, no. [unintelligible] that’s even better. I was—[laughs].
SB:
Anything else?
01:45:45
[Final questions]
KP:
Do you recall the year you first came to the Seattle area?
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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SB:
Well, certainly, yes. Like I said, most of the time I spent away from Seattle on bases on—
and again, my wife is an incredible person. Everywhere we went, she volunteered to be a
librarian or work at a kindergarten school or—we became part of the community. And it
was going to these holiday places like Massachusetts, which is a well-known holiday
resort, Cape Cod—and to be there in the winter is totally different because you were
thought of as part of the residents, not part of a visit—before, otherwise, you were just a
visitor. And they treated you completely differently. People from Massachusetts are
different, if you don’t know that. [laughs]
So I met the most extraordinary people there, including people who were terribly bigoted.
They were—I employed a black guy, and he could not believe that I was treating him just
like I treated anybody else. The locals just couldn’t really stand it very well. And he
wanted me to recommend him for a job back in Seattle. That was my first exposure to
this problem. So I learned that lesson there and really couldn’t believe it. And he couldn’t
believe that I was completely unbiased and would treat him just like anybody else and
wrote him a glowing recommendation for a job back at Seattle.
Those sort of experiences were very memorable. Nothing to do with what you asked me.
But when I came back to Seattle, of course, I—we rented all kinds of interesting houses
in low-district areas like Magnolia and places, and all kinds of interesting—we’d never
rented before and stayed in all kinds of weird places. So it was sort of interesting to
become acclimatized to the American way of doing things.
KP:
I’d be curious if you had any experience with the Museum when it was downtown or—
SB:
No. No, I know that—I remember when they moved the Red Barn over here and brought
it up by—on the barge and so on and bringing it across and placing it here and launching
it down to where it is now. And I wasn’t involved in any way with anything like that
then. I remember it going on, but I don’t remember being involved. Anything else?
KH:
Those are all my questions.
JB:
Well, I want to thank you for participating in the oral history and all your service. It’s
been good, very good.
SB:
Well, in case you couldn’t tell, it’s been fun from my end, too. [laughter] Thank you very
much, John.
JB:
Thank you.
01:48:58
[END OF INTERVIEW]
© 2019 The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Baker, Sydney J.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Barth, John
Biographical Text
<p>Sydney J. Baker was an aviation engineer who worked for Vickers-Armstrongs, Canadair, and the Boeing Company.</p>
<p>Sydney James Baker was born in London, England on January 26, 1930 to Sydney Baker (a bunting factory owner) and Esme Perrett (a shopkeeper’s assistant). When he was young, his family moved to Surrey, England. Nearby was a Vickers-Armstrongs airdrome as well as a racetrack, which inspired an interest in aviation and cars. During World War II, his father volunteered for the Royal Observer Corps. Baker would help his father and the other men identify aircraft carrying out bombing missions against England. At about age seven, he left home to attend Sevenoaks grammar school, a boarding school in Kent, England. At the age of 12, he received his glider’s license. He became an instructor at age 14, helping to teach injured fighter pilots how to fly again.</p>
<p>After graduating from Sevenoaks, Baker returned to Surrey. Wanting a hands-on job, he joined Vickers-Armstrongs as an apprentice, where he specialized in making wind tunnel models. He attended the local college at the same time. Once he finished his college coursework, he was drafted into the British Army and served with the Parachute Regiment. Once he had completed his military service, he returned to Vickers-Armstrongs as a flight test engineer but now located in Adelaide, Australia. His projects included the Supermarine Scimitar and developing guided missiles for the Weapons Research Establishment in Australia.</p>
<p>When his projects in Australia had concluded, he returned to England, but did not want to stay there permanently. Wanting to relocate to Canada, Baker accepted a position with Canadair, where he worked on the Sparrow missile. When the program was canceled in 1959, he accepted a job offer with the Boeing Company and moved to Seattle, Washington. Among the projects he worked on during his career at Boeing were the CIM-10 Bomarc missile, the Minuteman missile, the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, and the AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) program.</p>
<p>Following his retirement from Boeing in 1996, Baker became a docent for The Museum of Flight. He later joined the Museum’s aircraft restoration team and was instrumental in helping to restore the tail section of T-Square 54, the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. His love of cars also continued throughout his life; he was an amateur car racer and restored old Porsches.</p>
<p>Baker married his wife Janet Keast, a nurse, in 1953 and they had two children, Mary and John. Baker died in September 2022.</p>
<p>Biographical sketch derived from interview, information provided by interviewee, and obituary.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Baker_Sydney
OH_Baker_Sydney_transcription
Title
A name given to the resource
Sydney Baker oral history interview
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Sydney Baker and interviewer John Barth, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, August 29, 2019.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Engineer Sydney Baker is interviewed about his life and his decade-spanning career in the aviation industry. He discusses his work at Vickers-Armstrongs in the 1940s and 1950s and his subsequent engineering jobs with Canadair and the Boeing Company. Projects discussed include the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) program, the AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) program, and guided missile development. He also shares his experiences as a Museum of Flight docent and his restoration work on the Museum’s B-29 Superfortress. Other topics discussed include his school years in England during World War II, his service in the Parachute Regiment, and his restoration of vintage sports cars.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
<p>Introduction and personal background -- Adolescent years in England during World War II and early flight experiences -- Apprenticeship at Vickers-Armstrongs and service with the British Army -- Guided missile testing in Australia -- Career with Canadair -- Career with Boeing and work on AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) and AOA (Airborne Optical Adjunct) -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight and aircraft restoration work -- Achievements and notable moments from his career -- Advice for young people -- Car restoration and sports racing -- Legacy of restoration work -- Stories from Army service -- Side projects at Boeing -- Final questions</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08-29
Subject
The topic of the resource
Airborne optical adjunct
Airborne warning and control systems
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Baker, Sydney J.
Boeing B-29 Superfortress Family (Model 345)
Boeing Company
Boeing Company--Employees
Canadair Limited
Engineers
Great Britain. Army. Parachute Regiment
Guided missiles
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Test pilots
Weapons Research Establishment (Australia)
World War, 1939-1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Australia
Canada
England
Germany
Saudi Arabia
Washington (State)
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 48 min., 59 sec.) : digital
Language
A language of the resource
English
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/6333b4fa3da6313acab55510e7610262.mp4
0ccebf2be3927b69a839c4d9cef39461
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/27f6d73d4f3e88be7abed545d535ba3a.pdf
645c7cf082feab77bbe5030b095dd74e
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Michael R. Hallman
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: October 25, 2021
Location: Redmond, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2021 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Museum of Flight trustee Michael R. “Mike” Hallman is interviewed about his life and
experiences in the computer, aviation, and nonprofit fields. He discusses his career with
International Business Machines (IBM) during the 1960s through the late 1980s and his
subsequent careers with Boeing Computer Services and Microsoft. He also discusses his
involvement with The Museum of Flight as a trustee, interim CEO, and (along with his wife,
Mary Kay) co-founder of the Museum’s Oral History Program.
Biography:
Mike Hallman worked in Sales and Marketing with IBM, as the Boeing Company’s Chief
Information Officer and then Microsoft’s Chief Operating Officer, and is a longtime trustee of
the Museum of Flight.
Michael Robert Hallman was born in San Bernardino, California on June 6, 1945, to Frank and
Virginia Hallman. He was the oldest of three children. His father flew B-25s in the Pacific
theater during World War II, returning home in 1944 and then serving as a bombing and
navigation instructor at George Air Force Base in Victorville, California. Hallman grew up
around Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and spent his high school years in suburban Chicago, Illinois.
He then earned his bachelor’s in business administration in 1966 and MBA in 1967, both from
the University of Michigan. While in school he worked summers for the Greyhound Bus
Company escorting tours to New York City. He also made a few trips to Colorado Springs,
Colorado, where he met Mary Kay Johnson, whom he married in 1967.
After graduation Hallman joined International Business Machines (IBM) in the sales and
marketing area. He started out in Chicago in 1968. Over his 20-year career at IBM he held
several different positions, remaining primarily sales and marketing. He moved among several
IBM locations in addition to Chicago including Detroit, Michigan; White Plains, New York; St.
Louis, Missouri; and Atlanta, Georgia. By the end of his tenure with IBM he was Vice President
of Field Operations with responsibility for half of the country’s sales and service support.
Recruited by Boeing Computer Services (BCS) in 1987, Hallman ran their computer operations
for services provided to non-Boeing companies. These included the Naval Air Weapons Station
China Lake, the U.S. Department of Energy’s Hanford Site, NASA Ground Communications,
and the New York Police Department. Hallman was promoted to President of BCS just as
Boeing was embarking on the 777 program, which was their first airplane designed entirely with
computers. In his time at BCS, Hallman managed the transition from slide rules and drafting
tables to the CATIA computer system.
In 1990 Microsoft recruited Hallman to become their President. Joining the company when they
2021 © The Museum of Flight
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were early in the development of personal computers, he managed the company to $1 billion in
sales while streamlining operations.
At about this same time Hallman joined the Museum of Flight’s Board of Trustees. In the more
than three decades he has served with the Board, he has served as the Museum’s Chairman, Vice
Chairman, and as the interim President and CEO during a time of transition. He has chaired the
Exhibits Committee, the Communications and Marketing Committee, the Compensation
Committee, several gala committees, and has served on virtually every standing committee of the
board.
While serving as a Trustee, Hallman’s primary focus has centered on enhancing the Museum’s
educational mission. With a vision to record and preserve important stories of people who
worked, lived, and shaped aviation, he and his wife created the Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
Oral History Program. He also helped establish the Michael and Mary Kay Hallman Spaceflight
Academy exhibit. In 2020 Hallman was the fourth recipient of the Red Barn Heritage Award in
recognition of his significant and exceptional commitment to The Museum of Flight. His
relationship with the late William E. Boeing, Jr. and their mutual admiration for one another lead
to his appointment as the only trustee representative of the Aldarra Foundation, the Boeing
family’s foundation.
As of 2022, Hallman continues to live in the Seattle area and maintains his involvement with the
Museum of Flight.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
2021 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2021 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 6
Father’s military service during World War II ............................................................................... 7
Family and educational background ............................................................................................... 9
Career with IBM ........................................................................................................................... 12
Career with Boeing and Microsoft ................................................................................................ 15
Interest in aviation and education and involvement with The Museum of Flight ........................ 19
Experiences as Museum’s interim CEO ....................................................................................... 24
Story about Captain Joe Kimm and interest in oral histories........................................................ 28
Vietnam Veterans Memorial Park ................................................................................................ 30
Relationship with Bill Boeing Jr. .................................................................................................. 32
Philanthropy and legacy................................................................................................................ 33
Dealing with crises and tragedies ................................................................................................. 36
Thoughts on the Museum’s future ................................................................................................ 37
Aviation experiences ..................................................................................................................... 39
Concluding remarks ...................................................................................................................... 41
2021 © The Museum of Flight
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Michael R. Hallman
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
STEVE LITTLE:
Hello. My name is Steve Little, and today is Monday, October 25th, 2021.
We’re at the home of Mike and Mary Kay Hallman interviewing Mike for The Museum
of Flight’s Oral History Program. Mike Hallman had a long career in the computer
industry, beginning with IBM in the mid-1960s. Recruited to Boeing as a CIO, he was
instrumental in the computer-aided design of the 777. About the time Mike left Boeing
for Microsoft, he was asked to become a trustee at The Museum of Flight. With his top
flight management skills and passion for education of aviation, he became a driving
source behind the Museum’s success.
Over the ensuing years, he served on most, if not all, of the board’s committees,
including chairing the Exhibits Committee for a number of years. His leadership and
vision recognized the need to record and preserve the important stories of the various
people who worked, lived and shaped aviation. From that came the Mike and Mary Kay
Hallman Oral History Program. It’s an honor to include your history in the program that
you so generously provide.
As a background, I’d like to just get some general questions. First, please state your full
name and how you prefer it pronounced and then spell it.
MICHAEL HALLMAN:
N.
It’s Michael Robert Hallman. Mike. Last name is H-A-L-L-M-A-
SL:
And when and where were you born?
MH:
I was born in San Bernardino, California [audio briefly drops] on June 6th, 1945, which
interestingly enough is the first-year anniversary of D-Day, the third anniversary of the
Battle of Midway, and also was two months exactly before the first atomic bomb was
dropped on Hiroshima, Japan, and lastly was my mother’s 19th birthday.
SL:
That’s pretty cool. Same birthday. I like that. A little bit about your parents. [audio
briefly drops] What were your parent’s names and professions?
MH:
Yes. Both my parents lived for a long time in Wilmington, Delaware. Frank Hallman was
my dad’s name. Virginia Hallman—Virginia Johnson originally, but Virginia Hallman
was her name. Backgrounds are kind of interesting. My mother’s background for one side
of her grandparents were German immigrants here in the early 1900s. They came over as
indentured servants and didn’t speak English. My grandmother spoke English at home—
2021 © The Museum of Flight
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or spoke only German at home, didn’t figure out what was going on until she went to
school and couldn’t understand what the teacher was saying.
My father has an interesting background because we can trace his genealogy back to one
of the first settlers on the Swedish expedition to create a colony in the New World, Johan
Andersson Stalcop. And so we go back all the way to 1643 on that side.
00:03:08
[Father’s military service during World War II]
SL:
Very interesting. Exactly. I know you did talk a little bit about your dad being with IBM,
and he has a lot of service in the war, World War II?
MH:
Yes.
SL:
If you care to talk a little about that?
MH:
Sure. He had gone to two years at the University of Delaware and then left and was
working New York City in 1940, got a job with IBM as a draftsman. He actually was in
the National Guard then and was part of the 7th Regiment Armory, actually lived there
prior to the war. The Armory’s quite a famous building in New York, still stands.
And so in January of 1942, right after Pearl Harbor, he volunteered, wanted to fly, and
basically got transferred from the National Guard to the Army Air Corps and went into
pilot training. But the interesting thing here is is that when they figured out that he had a
fairly strong math background and was a draftsman, he immediately got tapped for
navigation for the Pacific Theater—where, unlike Europe, they weren’t flying by
landmarks, which was all dead reckoning—and so got sent to the Pan Am Navigation
School in Coral Gables, Florida and became a navigator-bombardier before he went
overseas to the South Pacific.
So at age 20, he was assigned to a B-52 [sic – meant B-25] bomb group and ended up
being the squadron navigator to get them from Hamilton Field in California to Hickam
Field to Christmas Island to Canton Island and ultimately ended up in Fiji. So I guess the
training worked because they got there.
SL:
They got there.
MH:
So he spent a little over a year and a half in theater flying B-25s. And the history there
was the Japanese were trying to move down the Solomon Islands to cut off
communications with Australia. We were trying to push them back. Guadalcanal was
finally taken in February of ‘43. My dad got there in June of ‘43. And so this was
basically trying to disable or just—to totally take apart the Japanese advance and keep
them from either invading Australia or going further down the Solomon chain. So they
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spent the next year and a half—or he spent the next year and a half in theater, and it
basically was bombing islands, including some islands that were actually were behind—
islands that we were occupying at the time. But the primary objective was to try to totally
take apart Rabaul, which was the major Japanese base there. There were about four or
five airfields there.
And what was interesting about it was they had B-50—excuse me, B-17s in the bomb
group, which are okay against fixed targets—hangars and airplanes—didn’t do well
against ships, which was the primary issue they were dealing with when the Japanese
were trying to resupply these islands. So they turned the B-25s into strafers and low-level
bombers. And there’s some pretty exciting stories about what they did. The B-25 got
totally modified from a straight bomber to a strafer. Some of them had as many as
fourteen forward-firing .50 calibers, and they even put a 75-millimeter cannon in them to
deal with the shipping in the area.
Anyways, he spent a year and a half in theater, came back in the middle of ‘44, got
married, ended up—still in the service—became a bombing and navigation instructor at
the old George Air Force Base in Victorville, California. They lived in California. That’s
why I was born in California, not in Delaware.
SL:
Okay. And there’s one photo you showed before we started this of your dad in a life raft?
MH:
Yes. Well, he had 55 missions—or 55 and a half, depending on how you counted it. They
got hit by antiaircraft fire on the way back from a bombing run in New Britain on Rabaul
and ended up ditching. Nobody was severely injured or died. But they floated around in a
life raft, I understand, for about five hours before they got picked up by a PBY. So we do
have a picture from the PBY of them taking this vacation cruise on a life raft in the
Solomon Sea.
SL:
[laughs] Oh, geez. That’s an interesting history of the war. I didn’t realize that there were
less missions required in the Pacific than they typically did in Europe.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
[unintelligible]
MH:
I don’t know how that worked. That particular theater was really at the total ends of the
supply line. I mean, we didn’t know how—you know, Guadalcanal fell in February ‘43.
My dad went there in June of ‘43. They were operating out of Henderson Field. But most
of those islands that they were either flying out of had no shipping facilities for supply
ships to come in. They were having to offload stuff onto landing craft and so on and so
forth.
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So my dad had the nickname of “Spam.” And I asked him about that. He said, “Well, the
food stuff that seemed to be in kind of abundant supply was peanut butter and spam.”
And he was one of the few people that actually liked that. But these guys had a tough
time. They called the Thirteenth Air Force the Jungle Air Force because that’s what they
were operating in, is these small islands and jungle.
SL:
So he ended up, after the war, was in for a short period of time, a couple of years, and
then out into IBM.
MH:
Went back to IBM. When he got back, he actually went and all the servicemen coming
back met with the CEO, Tom Watson of IBM, and he welcomed them back and asked
them what they wanted to do. And Dad said, “Well, I’d like to go back to Wilmington,
not New York, and I’d like to be a salesman.” And Tom turned around, picked up his
phone, called the office in Wilmington, and said, “You got a new salesman coming
down,” turned around to my father and said, “Okay, go buy a hat and turn up.”
00:09:59
[Family and educational background]
SL:
That simple.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
I think that’s pretty cool.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah. [clears throat] Excuse me. Brothers and sisters? You had other brothers and
sisters?
MH:
I have one sister who was born in Augusta, Georgia when my dad was actually down at
the Savannah River H-bomb plant with IBM. And I have a brother that was born in
Wilmington. My brother is three years younger than I am, and my sister is five years
younger than he was.
SL:
Okay. And I don’t know whether this is a good spot to bring this in or not, but I know—
as you were CEO of the Museum, you also had children.
MH:
Oh, yes.
SL:
And your children and your grandchildren and that kind of thing? That’s something we
sometimes miss in oral histories, is this succession line. So if you’d like to talk about that
a little bit? Yeah.
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MH:
Oh, sure. We have two daughters. One daughter lives down in Seattle, unmarried. My
oldest daughter, Jennifer, lives here in Woodinville, and she has two granddaughters. So I
live in an all-female-controlled family with daughters and granddaughters.
SL:
That’s very interesting, though. Yeah. We’ll talk more about that as we get into the
Museum. I’d kind of like to expand on that a little bit. How did you and Mary Kay meet?
MH:
Well, I went to the University of Michigan and went—graduated from high school in ‘63.
The Vietnam War was heating up then. We were basically told, “You’ve got four years to
go to college and then welcome to the Army.”
So I went to the University of Michigan. And the first summer after my freshman year, I
got a job with the Greyhound Bus Company to escort bus tours to New York City,
primarily for the World’s Fair at the time. And so I would make weekly trips to New
York during the summer. But I also took a couple trips to Colorado Springs. Mary Kay’s
father, actually, after the war, had stayed in the service. She was a—going to college
there and was a waitress at the Antlers Hotel—old Antlers Hotel in Colorado Springs. I
would put my tourists on the bus to go see Pikes Peak or whatever and then go into the
coffee shop and talk to Mary Kay. And we just—that was our kind of mode of
communication. We never lived in the same city. We traveled back and forth for holidays
and whatnot.
But it got—apparently her mother thought I was maybe a good catch and invited me out
to the house. I think it was the end of the first summer. Interesting story about that. Her
father was a major at that time in the Air Force, and I was taught to be polite when you
visit people, so I asked her mom and dad, “Is there anything I can do to help” when we
went out to dinner at their house. And Mary Kay’s father said, “Sure, mow the lawn.”
And that was my kind of introduction to Major Butler.
SL:
[laughs] Did you mow the lawn?
MH:
Yes. Yes.
SL:
That’s funny. So to get back to the education a bit, I—where did you go to high school?
MH:
Well, we lived in Philadelphia up until I was a junior in high school, and then my dad got
transferred to Chicago. And so I graduated from suburban Chicago. Glen Ellyn, to be
specific. Glenbard West High School. I didn’t have any particular allegiance to any
college. I had a math teacher I respected quite well. She said, “Why don’t you go to the
University of Michigan? They’ve got a great engineering program,” which is what I
thought I was interested in at the time. You have to remember, I was graduating during
the post-Sputnik windup of NASA, so science—what we now call STEM was front and
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center on everybody’s mind, so I thought I wanted to be an engineer. And so that’s how I
ended up in Ann Arbor.
And because of the pressure of the draft, I basically doubled up on everything that I was
doing because I thought I had four years and got my—end up transferring to the business
school, got a bachelor’s in business administration in three years, and then got my MBA
in the fourth year. So I actually graduated in four years with an MBA.
SL:
That’s a huge amount of work.
MH:
Well, if you plan it right it, it wasn’t too bad, because you just take all your electives in
the graduate school and do it. And I really liked school. I was always a good student, a
voracious reader, particularly a reader of histories and whatnot, probably because we
lived in historical parts of the country. Philadelphia, with the—its history. With the Boy
Scouts, we used to go camping at Valley Forge and whatnot. So all that stuff was very
front and center to do what I was doing.
SL:
Well, that would be fascinating, I think. Yeah. You talked about—this was like 1966, ‘67
era—
MH:
Graduated in ‘67.
SL:
Okay. So Vietnam’s heating up about that time. Protests are heating up, I should say.
Vietnam had already begun to heat up. In ‘67, we had the Apollo 1 tragedy and yet the
Summer of Love in San Francisco. Was there any sort of impact around all of that with
you and your school? How was it?
MH:
Well, partly because I was rushing through—and I was in ROTC during the first two
years, so you couldn’t wear your uniforms to the ROTC building. Just a lot of protests, a
lot of noise. I’m not sure anybody knew what they were—they knew what they were
protesting, but it was kind of disorganized then. They really didn’t get to be really
organized until later.
But 1968, of course, was the really tough year with Bobby Kennedy’s assassination. And
I was living in Chicago, where the Democratic Convention took place, which was a
triggering point for a lot of this stuff, with our beloved Mayor Daley using firehoses on
protesters and whatnot. So it was very front and center, all of the agitation about it. And
the Vietnam War was a tragic war in many respects, but the way the country treated the
returning servicemen was just horrible.
SL:
Yes.
MH:
Including my brother.
SL:
I was going to ask about that, yeah. Was he in the Air Force in ‘68 at that time or…?
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MH:
Not in ‘68. He was passionate about flying. I mean, we were all interested in flying, but
he was passionate about it. Went to the Air Force Academy and graduated in 1970. And,
of course, they were so gung-ho, they were afraid the Vietnam War would get over with
and they wouldn’t have their chance to get their ribbons and get promoted.
But he went into flying B-52s and was basically a—they call them radar observers, but he
was the navigator or bombardier. And the B-52 was based at Ellsworth. And did, I think,
three or four tours in Southeast Asia. They were being put on temporary assignment. His
wife at the time and family were living in South Dakota, but they would be on temporary
assignments to either Guam or Thailand. And he was in in December of 1972, which is
when President Nixon wanted to get the peace talks restarted, get the prisoners of war
home as the war was starting to wind down, and that’s when he ordered the all-out
bombing of North Vietnam for the first time. Bombing Hanoi, Haiphong Harbor, and
whatnot.
And so David was involved with, I think, three of those missions. And that’s when the
war got pretty serious for them. Prior to that, they had been doing, interestingly enough,
close ground support with the B-52, which sounds like an oxymoron, but that’s what they
were doing, and blowing up a lot of bridges and bamboo huts and stuff. But when they
went into Hanoi, supposedly the most heavily armed city anywhere with SAM missiles,
and that’s when we started losing B-52s. And he had a number of planes go down.
And it’s interesting. Jim Farmer, one of our other trustees, was a B-52 pilot, lost his
plane, but did not get captured because they nursed it along enough to get to where they
could be rescued. But those were pretty dramatic times for those folks. And that went on
for several weeks, really intense bombing in North Vietnam.
00:18:46
[Career with IBM]
SL:
Very much so. So at this time, you’re still—you’re kind of new to IBM at that point.
MH:
Right.
SL:
What were you doing? Were you in Chicago at the time [unintelligible]?
MH:
I was in Chicago, and I went into sales. I think partly my Greyhound training actually
said, you know, “Engineering is fine and you can do it, but it’s more fun to be talking to
people and doing other things.” And so I went into sales and marketing, and basically my
20 years at IBM were mostly sales and marketing. But I moved through a number of
positions, and we moved the family around. I went from Chicago to Detroit to White
Plains, New York, back to Chicago. Both my girls were born in Chicago, but on different
tours of duty. Then we went to St. Louis and finally ended up in Atlanta for eight years.
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And when I left IBM, I was the vice president of field operations. I basically had half the
country’s sales and customer support force. Which, interestingly enough, my father then
was working for me, technically, down in the organization a little bit, as was my sister,
who also worked for IBM, her husband, her ex-husband, my brother worked there for a
little bit after he got out of the service, and my sister-in-law was the last person standing.
She retired about, oh, I think, five years ago, also in Atlanta. So there was one Christmas
dinner I remember where six of the eight adults at the table worked for IBM, and my
mother and Mary Kay had to call a truce at least once an hour so we would quit talking in
these acronyms about computers. So we really have a great family history. My dad
worked for IBM for 49 years.
SL:
Wow.
MH:
I worked there for 20. My sister worked there for 25.
SL:
Oh, man. That’s a tremendous history with that company. And that had to have been a
huge growth time when your dad was there and when you were there?
MH:
Well, it was. And IBM is not as well-known now to young people, but in the ‘60s and
‘70s, it was kind of the premier computing company for almost anything. They had a
product line, the 360, the 370, all mainframe computers. Later in the ‘80s—and that’s
part of the reason I left—was they had kind of lost touch with their customers relative to
mini computers and distributed processing. But it was the premier company for
computing, but it was also a great training ground, if you will, for managers. They’re
really well known for the development of people and their executives. And it has a great
history.
And, of course, my dad’s history went all the way back to 1940 when they were actually
making machine guns for the war effort.
SL:
The war.
MH:
Right?
SL:
Wow.
MH:
And my first encounters were counting machines, mechanical counting machines, where
you didn’t program, you wired boards and plugboards in order to get the counting
machine to do what it was supposed to do. And that’s part of how IBM got its growth, is
it was the only company that could handle Social Security Administration.
SL:
I didn’t know that.
MH:
And the census. And so that’s kind of what their claim to fame was early on. Later it
became kind of the go-to company for computing for the ‘60s, ‘70s, and early part of the
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‘80s. Still a very big company, but not anywhere near as well-known as some of the
others now.
SL:
No. And that’s where you ended up with a lot of your management training and skills, it
looks like.
MH:
Yes, yes.
SL:
That helped a lot.
MH:
It was a great company for developing managers and executives. A lot of training, a lot of
support. And then people did a lot of recruiting from them because it was kind of a
premier training ground for executives.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Oh, I understand that one for sure. At the time I remember I kind
of wanted to go out to work for IBM, and then somebody told me that they acronym
stood for “I’ve Been Moved.”
MH:
Yes, that’s exactly what it was. And that’s when—in 1987, when IBM was kind of
struggling with what they wanted to do, I was vice president for basically half the
country’s revenue, about three-quarters of its geography for sales, but I was spending far
more time talking to IBM executives in New York than I was talking to customers. And
that struck me as just being wrong. There was something we weren’t connecting.
Now, the great thing was IBM actually invented, if you will, the PC at the time and got
into an arrangement with Microsoft to have Microsoft develop the operating system. And
that’s a whole different story as to how that marriage or engagement or whatever it was—
SL:
It was different. Yeah.
MH:
—was different, and ultimately ended up being a divorce before it was all over with. But
what gave us was—me, personally, the family—was access to this technology. We had
all the early PCs. And when Jennifer went off to boarding school, she had her PC with
her. And there’s actually an interesting article in one of the IBM internal publications of
Jennifer showing off some of her artwork where she had programmed in a product called
Logo how to draw a horse, which is her main avocation, with a computer as kind of
breakthrough technology. It looks pretty crude right now by today’s standards, but it was
kind of cool at the time.
So we’ve had—always had access to computers in the home, as have the children, and
it’s been a great benefit. They’ve all been—of course, everybody’s computer literate
now, but they were really ahead of their times in utilizing those—that kind of technology
in schools.
00:25:00
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[Career with Boeing and Microsoft]
SL:
That’s a great benefit, yeah, for you and your family. And then you say in ‘87, is that
when you made the move?
MH:
Right. We were living in Atlanta. It looked like the next step would be go back to New
York, which we neither Mary Kay nor I wanted to do. We had moved too much, and we
didn’t want to go through another one of those. And I had basically—was questioning
IBM strategy. So I got a call from a recruiter who asked me about going to Boeing. And
at the time, Boeing Computer Services was headed up by a fellow by the name of Bob
Dryden, who had also worked for IBM. I knew him casually, not really well. So I went
out and interviewed and ultimately went to Boeing to run Boeing Computer Services’
external systems integration business.
There’s kind of an interesting history there, was in 1970s, when there was a real
downturn here—there’s a famous story about a billboard at the edge of town saying,
“Will the last person to leave Seattle turn off the lights?”—I mean, it was—IBM had—or,
excuse me, Boeing had laid off a number of people, and the powers-that-be had enough
insight to say, “Hey, these computer guys may actually be valuable in the future. Let’s
put them together in one place and let them go sell computing services. To the degree that
they can sell computing services, generate revenue, we can keep them in place.” And
that’s what they did. And then that actually built up about a half-billion-dollar systems
integration business. We had customers all over.
We ran the—I say “we.” It became “we” a little bit later. But they were running all the
computing operation at Hanford. They ran—had the China Lake Naval Weapons Center.
They had NASA’s Ground Communications. A number of other contracts—the New
York Police Department. But basically had these contracts external to Boeing and not
even in line with anything Boeing was doing at the time, other than generating revenue
and building a skill base, which was—became quite important later on.
So I went up to Boeing as—to run that business, but within about six months, Bob
Dryden, who I was working for at the time, got moved to be the number two person in
Wichita in the Defense Division, and I was quite honored to be named the new president
of Boeing Computer Services. I went from running this fairly small part of BCS to
running all of BCS.
Now, at the time, BCS was doing most of the computing operation for the whole
company, other than things that actually ended up on a product. We didn’t do
applications or computer software that actually ended up in an airplane
SL:
Sure.
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MH:
But everything else we did. And we had about 15,000 people. We ran a big telephone
network. You really get a whole different sense of customer satisfaction when you’re
responsible for the CEO’s dial tone. You get a lot of opportunities to be successful, and
you never want to fail in that.
SL:
You didn’t want to really mess it up?
MH:
Yeah. It only takes one to mess that up. But we were doing some really interesting work,
particularly—and what was really exciting to me was we had just started the—or the
company had just started the 777 development program. And this is kind of my one claim
to having been part of The Museum of Flight, actually, is the company had adopted
CATIA, which was a software product sold by IBM but developed by Dassault for
computer-aided design. And it was a very unique piece of software, 3D solid modeling.
The way historically you build airplanes was you had flat drawings trying to make
drawings of a surface that was both curved and highly complex. Very difficult to do. So
you ended up building a lot of prototypes and whatnot. Very long process. And the whole
idea here was to basically design and to a large degree test the plane on the computer
before you ever built one.
And the company had piloted this, kind of tested the practicality of it, by working on a
part of the airplane—power pack and strut, which is basically the engine and the
connection to the wing—which is interesting because everything goes through there. You
know, fuel, air, hydraulics, wiring and everything else, and just a very complex
structure—and had demonstrated the feasibility of that as a viable technology for airplane
design. And the only issue then was was to scale it up to a full airplane.
And so it was fun to be part of that project. And I take no credit for it because I was just
kind of overseeing the whole thing. But the 777 was the first airplane ever to be,
essentially, totally designed on the computer with a notion of having the first thing we
built actually fly, which it did. Ended up, I think, with first United and then Cathay
Pacific.
But what was fascinating to me was is that Boeing was making a major commitment to
the airplane. The engine manufacturers were making a major commitment to the engines.
IBM was selling software developed by and still controlled to a large extent by Dassault,
which was uncomfortably close to Airbus. And IBM was selling a lot of computers and
workstations. At one point in time, I think we had about 1800 engineering workstations
connected to a bunch of IBM mainframes to do it. And IBM, quite frankly, wasn’t
stepping up to the support structure.
So I remember early on I was able to get a meeting with John Akers, who was the CEO
of IBM at the time, who I had worked for in the past, and [Bert Woliver?], who was the
corporate engineering VP, and [Dean Cruise?], who was the corporate manufacturing VP,
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and I went out and made the first customer presentation ever to the IBM executive board
and said, “Hey, guys, you know, the engine companies are betting a billion dollars to do
this, Boeing’s betting a billion dollars on the airplane, and we need you to step up.”
And so if you go to the Museum—or right below the theater there, where the wall and the
Great Gallery, is a display on what CATIA is all about, the awards that we won. And
what’s really fascinating, there’s a handwritten—or a copy of a handwritten letter, which
was done at a restaurant in New York with Frank Shrontz, the CEO of Boeing, John
Akers, the CEO of IBM, Bernard Charlès, who was the CEO of Dassault, without the
help of lawyers, saying, “Look, we’re committed to building this airplane on time, on
schedule, of the highest quality,” signed by all the executives.
And it was an interesting time in history. I didn’t stay at Boeing until we finally got the
plane flying, but it was interesting to be part of that. And I used to talk to Frank Shrontz a
lot about this and how it was going because we were investing huge amounts of money in
computing. And I finally said, “Look, I’m relatively new to the Boeing Company. From a
computing standpoint, we’ve got a lot of challenges to scale this thing up, but I think
they’re manageable. My personal opinion is it’s going to be a culture issue. Because to
make this work, you’ve got to bring everybody to the front of the process—the
aeronautical engineer, the manufacturing people, the guys from the factory, the people in
the field that are going to have to maintain this thing—and get them to sit down together
and design an airplane that both will fly well, can be manufactured efficiently, and can be
maintained in the field. And I’m not sure we, the Boeing Company, know how to do that.
The whole system doesn’t really tell you how you mix that kind of skillset together and
get it to function.”
But Alan Mulally was the chief engineer on it, and Phil Condit was the head of the
program, and they collectively basically made it work. And I would say that—almost
without a doubt, most people will say that the 777 was the best program that Boeing’s
had ever, including some of the new ones. Fewer engineering changes, very few
problems, very popular airplane. They built almost 2,000 of them.
SL:
Wow. So you really were changing during the change from paper and pencil and drafting
and—
MH:
Absolutely.
SL:
—small calculator type work—
MH:
Slide rules.
SL:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It would have been a fascinating time.
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MH:
It was. It was. You know, the design goal—I mean, an airplane is a very complicated
thing to build. As somebody said, a 747 is several million parts flying in close formation.
But it’s not a simple project to do and to do it quickly and to do it cost effectively. So the
goal we had was to reduce the number of engineering changes after we got the airplane
out and to get the plane profitable faster by speeding the whole process up.
SL:
That makes sense. And you were there until around probably—I think it was around the
time you came onto The Museum of Flight.
MH:
1990.
SL:
Okay.
MH:
Yeah, I was—much to my surprise, I got a call one day saying, “Have you ever thought
about being the president of Microsoft?” And I said, “Nope. Haven’t thought about that at
all.”
SL:
[laughs] “Why would I?” Yeah.
MH:
Well, Microsoft was a much smaller company then. They were maturing to the point
where they were no longer an individual user hobbyist kind of business. A lot of big
companies were using the software and PCs, including the Boeing Company. We were
Microsoft’s biggest customer at the time. But we were also everybody’s biggest
customer. We were Apple’s biggest customer and so on and so forth. And Microsoft was
struggling with their relationship with IBM, and I guess I was viewed as being somebody
who knew about IBM but was far enough removed from it with my time at Boeing not to
be an IBM-biased.
SL:
Right.
MH:
And at the time, Microsoft—I think we had about 5,000 employees and a little bit less
than—I guess we made our first billion-dollar revenue year in 1990, if I’m not mistaken.
So it was a much smaller company, and my task was to try to build a relationship with
large customers to use the software to try to change Microsoft’s policies and practices as
it relates to that kind of software. Prior to that, if you wanted to have DOS licensed on a
PC, you had to have a piece of paper that was the license that literally was next to the PC.
Boeing was moving PCs around like crazy and trying to keep track of them. So there
were a lot of policies and practices that needed to be addressed to make it practical for
large customers.
00:37:23
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[Interest in aviation and education and involvement with The Museum of Flight]
SL:
I’ll say. Yeah, it would have been an interesting transition time as well. But that’s
something I didn’t really kind of get into earlier, was what sparked your interest in
aviation? Because you’ve gone from Boeing now and then become this massive force at
The Museum of Flight.
MH:
Well, I don’t know why I got asked to be a trustee, to be perfectly honest with you, other
than the fact I was getting some visibility in the press and was probably whoever Trip’s
[Trip Switzer] predecessor was was to say, “Hey, here’s somebody who might want to
financially contribute.”
But I’ve always been interested in aviation, with my dad’s history, my father-in-law’s
history, my brother’s history. It’s always sort of fascinated me, and my interest was both
historical. I was really focused on World War II-kind of history. So the Museum looked
like a good place to be. And for the first several years I was a trustee but wasn’t really
terribly active. I mean, I went to the meetings and so on and so forth. But I went through
several years in the ‘90s as a trustee and began to get to know the Museum a lot better.
And the real transformation was—and I can’t remember the exact year—I was asked to
head up the Exhibit Committee. And we were starting to work—I say “we.” It was Chris
Mailander and the team—were basically dealing with the Champlin collection of
airplanes, the fighter collection, and designing the Personal Courage Wing. And that
project, which I take no credit for—I was certainly not a creative force behind it—was
really transformational to me. Because prior to that, when I first joined the Museum
board, we basically had the Great Gallery and the Red Barn. It was a great place for
aviation enthusiasts. We had airplanes, we had signage to tell how fast they flew, when
they were made, so on and so forth. But it was basic for airplane nuts, I’ll call them, to
visit.
The Personal Courage Wing did two things for me. It basically began to tell the story
built around the airplanes. What’s the historical context of these airplanes? Who built
them? What were some of the technologies that were advancing—that were being
advanced at the time? What was the impact on the war on the acceleration of technology,
both wars? And so we started to tell stories in a way that I thought was terrific, but more
importantly, it appealed to a much broader audience.
And the other thing related to that is it started to talk about people. We’re not dealing
with inanimate objects, an airplane. We’re dealing with the people who flew them. We’re
dealing with the people who designed them. And what came out of that when we opened
that in the—in 2004 and we saw people go through, including my own family, my own
children, I began to realize that people don’t know very much about what happened in the
first half of the last century. They went through two World Wars, a Depression, moved
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right into the Cold War. I mean, I can remember in the Cold War practicing at school
getting under my desk in case of a nuclear attack. I don’t know what people thought
was—I was going to—how I was going to be saved by doing that, but we did it. My
father had a plan to put a bomb shelter in the backyard, for Pete’s sakes.
SL:
I remember those days.
MH:
You know? Fortunately, it never got implemented. But basically, we had a generation,
my children, as well as others, who knew nothing about—or very little about what went
on. And yet a lot of the problems we’re dealing with even today arose out of the things
that happened between 1900 and the ‘50s or ‘60s. You know, a lot of the boundaries in
the Middle East were basically created out of the post-war era. Certainly the relationship
with Russia was developed out of that and ultimately China.
And so to me, the whole Personal Courage Wing involvement really got me—my juices
running relative to the value of the Museum, not just as a collector of artifacts, but as a
place to tell stories and to educate people on what happened and, more importantly, why
it’s relevant today, what the impact is for today.
SL:
That makes really good sense because the Personal Courage Wing is one that people go
into it without knowing an awful lot about it. And a lot of them don’t even go up to
World War I, unfortunately. But the technology changes are all people stories.
MH:
Absolutely.
SL:
And it’s a fascinating history for that.
MH:
Sure.
SL:
Is that what kind of got you into the education side of the Museum or was that—
MH:
Well, I’ve always been interested in education. When you have kids, you sort of deal with
that. I always liked school. I was a voracious reader. And as we saw people come through
the Museum and you began to get a sense of, quite frankly, an education system that
wasn’t working well for a lot of people, particularly some of the underserved
communities, it just became really foremost in my mind—I mean, I—we’ve supported
the schools we’ve been involved with for a long time. We’ve got a faculty fund at the
University of Michigan, where there’s six Hallman Fellows running around doing
whatever college professors do.
But the point of it is is that education is fundamental to a successful society. The more we
can advance the skillset of everybody, the better off we’re going to be. And I think a lot
of the issues we’re facing right now are weak education system. But part of that’s just
motivating people, so we—I think the value of the Museum is something where you can
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basically tell people not only what’s going on, but particularly the STEM areas, the
science, technology, engineering stuff, are interesting things to do. They’re fun things to
do. There’s a lot of jobs there. And when we look at our education programs with
Washington Aerospace Scholars and others, you really can get people excited about it.
Back about—oh, I think it was about nine, ten years ago, through a mutual friend, Mary
Kay and I got involved with a school down in Shelton, Washington, the Mountain View
Elementary School, where we knew the fourth grade science teacher. And without going
into a lot of detail, Shelton is kind of a tough community. It’s basically a mill town. A lot
of these kids have never been out of the county. Very few have ever been on an airplane.
A lot of them were dealing with family issues. And so Mary Kay and I started bringing
their fourth grade class up every May to the Museum for a field trip. At the time, they
couldn’t use the buses to go on field trips. They couldn’t afford it. So we would bring,
120 fourth graders up to the Museum to spend a day at the Museum.
And the school didn’t view it as just a field trip. They put the curriculum together. The
librarian helped them. The English department—English teachers had them write stories
about it. The science teacher talked about aviation and so on and so forth. So these kids
came up very well prepared. Docents normally are terrified when you tell them that we’re
bringing in 120 fourth graders.
SL:
[laughs] True.
MH:
“Could you make sure they have a good day?” These kids came in, were very polite, very
well behaved, asked great questions. [laughs] We had them go up and we had—served
them lunch, had McCormick and Schmick’s cater a lunch for fourth graders, which is a
whole interesting process on having McCormick and Schmick put together baloney
sandwiches, turkey sandwiches, cheese sandwiches. [laughs] And the kids loved it. There
was tablecloths up in the room that we had it in. And these kids thought this was really
cool. And they served—we served juice and water in the water goblets. They thought
they were drinking out of wine glasses. Those kids got so excited about that. Every time
an airplane took off from the field, right, they would all run to the windows. The building
would start to tip over that way.
But we did that for seven years right up into COVID. And about a month later, Mary Kay
and I would always get a thank-you book. Every one of them had to write a thank you
letter to us. Even the kids that didn’t get to go because they didn’t complete all their
assignments had to write a thank-you note for taking their schoolmates [unintelligible]. “I
heard it was great. Thank you very much for taking care of our—”
So, unfortunately, COVID interrupted with that, and obviously thing and staff changed
and whatnot, so I don’t know whether we’ll continue that. But that just showed me that
the Museum isn’t going to teach everybody calculus or trig or anything like that, but if
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we can keep these kids motivated, stay in school, there’s a lot of good jobs here, the more
you study, the more you’re going to be able to advance yourself and your families. And
besides that, it’s fun. It’s fun. And so that’s what we’re trying to accomplish. And to me,
that’s a lot of what we’re doing. We are now getting more into classes that actually are—
have educational accomplishments and goals. But I think the real value is to be a place
where no matter what your interest, you can come to The Museum of Flight, find
multiple things to do, and really have fun doing it. And our kids loved to do it. They used
to go to The Museum of Flight and throw parachutes off the balconies and whatnot. And
so it’s really a—just an exciting thing to see, and we just need to continue to do more of
it.
SL:
It sounds like you’ve been very heavily involved in that, in the Challenger Learning
Center, in the Michael Anderson [referring to the Michael P. Anderson Memorial
Aerospace Program], all of that, and it’s very appreciated.
MH:
Yeah. Even like my oldest granddaughter, Sarah, she would bring her friends to the
Museum, initially just for the fun part of it. And when I was interim CEO, I also had the
keys, so she could go down in the basement and see that stuff. But she would—got into
the library and archives one time, and they started showing her some of the things we had
in the vault, right? The photographic plates from the Wright Brothers being in Paris in
1908. And she could relate to the fact that that person who took that picture had to be
there. Unlike her iPhone, you know, the picture didn’t just come from somebody.
And so she got really interested in that, would bring friends back, and would always want
to go to the library and archives, which for a teenager, that’s not like a normal place to
go. But it just showed me that we’ve got so much down there, and I’m not sure we’re
using it all as effectively as we could to try to stimulate people’s interest. And now she’s
down at the University of Portland studying to be an elementary school teacher.
SL:
Oh, that’s wonderful.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah. That’s very cool. I heard something about—that they had a nickname for the
Museum?
MH:
Well, yes. [laughs] As you progress forward in time and I became the interim CEO,
somebody Photoshopped a picture, which I don’t think we have around here anymore, of
me standing in front of the Museum, and they had Photoshopped “Grandpa’s Museum”
over the door, so…
SL:
[laughs] I didn’t realize it went to the extent of a photograph.
MH:
Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. It’s Grandpa’s Museum. [laughs]
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SL:
I think that’s awesome. That’s what it should be. It should be that to anybody. It should
be that familiar and that fun of a place to go.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah. Well, that’s very cool. There’s all kinds of little things about that. I’m kind of
curious about, obviously, the Exhibits Committee and how long you were on there and
what happened during your tenure on there.
MH:
Well, on the Exhibits Committee, I think I was the chairman—or involved with it for 10
or 15 years. I don’t really know. It seemed like forever. And, you know, it’s really that
staff that does the great job. I basically just ran interference for them and make sure that
their projects were reasonable and they got the right kind of budget. But they’re so
creative on how do you display and use these artifacts as not just what the artifact is but
what it meant. So I did that for a number of years.
But if you look at some of the things we did—I can’t remember the exact year—for
example, we had the Leonardo da Vinci exhibit, which was a traveling exhibit. We had to
actually pay for it and therefore sell tickets. We had never done that before. So our board
at the time was pretty conservative. It was mostly Boeing engineers. And so the notion of
going out and paying somebody to bring an exhibit in on Leonardo da Vinci, where
they—wasn’t necessarily the connection was quite as tight as other things. But when we
did that—and it was a very successful effort. I think that was like in 2007. I can’t
remember the exact date. But it was really an eye-opener because we attracted people that
ordinarily would not come to the Museum to see this display of models and da Vinci’s
inventions or designs and some of his paintings and whatnot.
There’s a great picture of me with one of the grandkids—Sarah, I think it was—holding
hands looking at the Mona Lisa on the wall there. But it demonstrated that, number one,
we can do things that are related to our broader mission—not just airplanes, but education
and science—and we can attract people to come in and pay to see it. And so it was kind
of an eye-opener for us. And the first time we ever did it was successful. We’ve done it
since then. You can’t do it with everything. It has to be somewhat related to what we’re
doing. But it was an interesting project.
SL:
When you were on the committee at the time that came through then—or that you helped
put that together. How about Personal Courage Wing? You were involved in that or in
selection of the airplanes or anything like that?
MH:
Well, not the selection of the airplanes we were started with and I—we were doing—was
working with Chris Mailander, who headed up the exhibit team to put it together. As I
say, I take no credit for any creative stuff here. My role was just to keep pushing them
and to keep pushing the Museum to do more stuff with it. I think it was a great success. I
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mean, people go to The Museum of Flight and come away with, it’s the most interesting
part. If they get in there. The Museum’s gotten so big, we’ve got to now figure out how
to navigate through it in a meaningful way, depending on peoples’ interests.
SL:
That is more difficult.
MH:
And that’s a challenge. It really is. It really has gotten to be huge. It’s not a one day, you
know, “Let’s go down to The Museum of Flight for a couple hours and get that off our
checklist.”
SL:
Right. We do get a lot of folks that are there for an hour and, “What can you show me in
an hour?” Well, not much.
MH:
Right.
SL:
That’s difficult.
MH:
It’s hard.
SL:
Very much so.
00:54:28
[Experiences as Museum’s interim CEO]
SL:
Well, I know you were—and have been kind of given some kudos around the transition
when the economy went down the tubes back in ‘08, ‘09, that era.
MH:
‘08. That was really a tough time. We hadn’t fully paid for the Personal Courage Wing
because pledges hadn’t come in, the stock market turned down. We had to do—I think it
was across the board pay cut for the staff at ten percent. That didn’t go down well. But it
was better than layoffs. But it really caused a number of issues. Kevin Callahan was my
predecessor. I was vice chairman of the board at the time in 2008 and ‘09. And Kevin
Callahan was the chairman, and we clearly had both economic stress in the Museum but
also a fairly severe morale problem for the obvious reason we started getting pay cuts.
And so the Executive Committee was caught off guard and not really quite as attuned as
they should have been to what was going on in the bowels of the organization. Some of
our donors were.
And so we basically made a CEO change at the time. Bonnie Dunbar had done a great job
of getting us focused on space because it concurred with all the stuff we were—decided
to compete for, this one of the flown Space Shuttles as that program began to wind down.
And to do that, part of the RFP [Request for Proposal] said we had to build a building, so
we were trying to get the Space Gallery built. I think we completed that in 2011.
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Anyway, we—the Executive Committee, or a subset of them, decided that we ought to—
we needed to deal with this morale issue, and we wanted to make a CEO change. It was
kind of the end of Bonnie’s five-year term there. And so I made the mistake of going out
to go to the restroom or take a phone call. When I came back, I found myself as the
interim CEO of the Museum and was told that it’s not a bad job. Just go down there a
couple days a week, smile, sign some papers, and make all this transition stuff go
smoothly. Go start the search for a new CEO. Don’t have any glass break. Make sure the
morale improves, nobody leaves. It did not turn out to be a one-or-two-day-a-week job,
so I was basically, for most of 2010, the fulltime CEO of The Museum of Flight.
SL:
Oh, yeah.
MH:
Which was interesting. And I’ve never viewed myself as an airplane guy. I mean, I’m a
computer guy that got lost one day and ended up at The Museum of Flight. But anyway,
here I am now as the CEO. And we had to deal with a number of issues, most of which
are fairly easy to fix. My first staff meeting I had, I said, “Look, I don’t know anything
about museums, so don’t come to me with museum-specific things. But if you got an
issue, I will turn it around in two days, if at all possible. So you’re going to get answers
on whatever your questions are. I’m not going to rewrite your letters, so do them right the
first time and they’ll go out. We’re going to start having any meetings that I have with the
staff, not in my office, but in the department’s office.”
So first day I was there, I went over to, actually, the Exhibit Committee area over in the
904 building and visited the library and archives. The CEO actually shows up in the
library and archives. That was sort of an amazing event.
SL:
A very different culture then. It really—
MH:
It really was. It really was. I would never have lunch in my office. I would always eat
somewhere else, down in the cafeteria, and I then would walk around and talk to people.
Mostly docents. I mean, docents are very easy to talk to and will tell you what’s going on.
They’re not worried about a pay cut, they’re not worried about losing their job, and so
they are very vocal, very specific, and usually know what’s going on. And so it was kind
of an interesting year.
We started the search. Actually, it was two searches. The first search we decided we
weren’t getting—we were getting a more traditional candidate, somebody who had been
in the industry before, aeronautics and whatnot. I said, “We’ve got to aim higher. We
need to take this as an opportunity to be truly transformational and do something really
different.” And so we ended up going down and recruiting Doug King from the St. Louis
Science Center, who had—early in his career, had been marketing the Challenger
Learning Centers, was running a science center, not an airplane museum, had some
relationship with McDonnell Douglas, which became an important part of the Boeing
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Company at the time. And we felt that he could really kind of redirect us into a, if you’ll
have them, bigger dreams. And that’s kind of why we did that.
So anyway, I was interim CEO for a year. That’s when I had the keys, and that’s when
the grandkids really thought I was cool because I could open any door and wander around
the storage areas.
SL:
That would be more fun than I can count. I love that.
MH:
The key to make the elevator go all the way up to the top floor. I mean, it was kind of a
fun time.
SL:
The little things. Yeah.
MH:
Yeah. And we’re doing some cool stuff. The Wyckoff Bridge had been put in to go
across the street. We are starting the work on the Space Gallery to compete for the flown
Shuttle. And so it really was a kind of a transformational time for the Museum.
SL:
Well, your expertise, you’ve managed other areas with IBM and Boeing through some
tough transitional periods, so I can see why if you stepped out of the room, you got the
job.
MH:
Well, I don’t know why I did. I don’t know what happened there. The lesson there is
never leave the room when important stuff like that’s going on. You’ve got to make sure
you represent yourself in that. In all fairness, I was retired at the time. After I left
Microsoft, I had kind of a consulting practice. I had more flexibility on time. And the
experience I had was managing large organizations, complex organizations. So it was
really funny, the first meeting I had after I became interim CEO was a meeting between
Chris Mailander and the curator at the time—
SL:
Dennis [Dennis Parks]?
MH:
Well, it was not Dennis. It was—
SL:
Dan?
MH:
Dan [Dan Hagedorn]. Anyway, it was to resolve how we were going to mount the P-51.
The traditional view, the National Air and Space Museum view, is mounted on the
ground so that you can see it in it’s more normal position. Chris had the view that we
ought to mount it on a pedestal like it was landing, partly because we needed the space
and whatnot. I said, “So what do you want me to do?” [laughs] I said, “You two go off
and resolve that and to just let me know what happened.” And I think part of it was the P51 was blocking the access to some storage room down in the Personal Courage Wing.
And I said, “Look, I’m not a museum guy, and this is way out of my paygrade to figure
this one out.” And I don’t know when it ever got resolved. As a matter of fact, I think it
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has just gotten resolved in the last couple years, so it was not apparently an easy thing to
solve.
SL:
I think it was a compromise. For several years it was on the ground, and then after Dan
retired—
MH:
But the point of it is is the Museum behaves—it’s a bunch of silos, highly specialized
groups, whether it be development or archives or exhibits and whatnot. And we had to
make the groups work together to get this whole thing functioning right. And we made
enormous progress on that. But that’s a skillset that I brought to the process, is I had
managed large organizations before, and it’s all about communication. You give people
clear direction, you give them the right tools, and then get out of their way and make
them successful. The people will be successful on their own. You don’t have to
micromanage them.
When I was at Boeing, BCS looked like a computing company, not like the Boeing
Company. We were ten years—average age was ten years younger. We had far more
women, particularly women in management. I think we had about a third of the women
that were in management in the Boeing Company, and we were like one-tenth of the
population. We did things like actually have personal performance plans, goals for the
year, evaluations tied to your pay. I never heard of a toteming system until I got to
IBM—got to Microsoft—got to Boeing, where you basically rank your staff and started
lopping off the bottom of it. That just didn’t make sense to me. But anyway.
SL:
Yeah. That’s how it was at GE to some degree. You had management, but that bottom ten
percent was generally gone every year.
MH:
Yeah. As I used to tell people, a top executive every once in a while will ask what time it
is. And the organization responds to that. And somebody in the bowels of the
organization is giving me the Fort Collins exact time, and then they say, “Well, he might
ask that question again,” and before you know it, we’ve got a clock factory being built in
the basement. And all I wanted to know was what time it was.
SL:
I never thought about it that way.
MH:
Well, that’s the way it worked to a large degree.
SL:
Yeah. That’s interesting. So it sounds like really during your time as CEO, there was a
transition almost in how the board and the staff worked together, it seems like?
MH:
Well, I wouldn’t call it—I don’t know if it’s specific change. But the whole Museum was
changing. We were becoming far more focused on education. Developing the stuff on the
other side of the street was quite important. Competing for the Space Gallery, taking the
gamble that we will compete for that and even build a building for it with no assurance
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that we’re going to get it, but we were complying with an RFP that said you had to be
able to have a place to store it, display it near a 10,000-foot runway. We concluded we’re
the only people that could actually do that, and so we took a chance and built a building
with the Space Gallery. I think most people know that the back of that building could
come off to slide it in there.
We were doing more marketing. So the whole organization was starting to evolve, focus
on education, figuring out how to be more relevant to a broader community, related to
what we were doing, aviation and STEM learning and stuff like that, but be—move way
beyond just being a museum in the classical sense of the word.
01:06:51
[Story about Captain Joe Kimm and interest in oral histories]
SL:
Something that you had mentioned in your—kind of the preliminary questionnaire we go
through that I don’t really know anything about, which is why I probably shouldn’t ask
the question.
MH:
But you’ll do it anyway.
SL:
But Captain Joe Kimm. I don’t know what the story is there.
MH:
Joe Kimm. Well, actually, Joe—as you know, Mary Kay and I have sponsored the oral
history program for quite some time.
SL:
Yes.
MH:
What triggered that was I was also on the board of Emerald Heights, which is a senior
community here in Redmond. And when I was down there, I got introduced to Joe Kimm,
who was at the time—this would have been—oh, gosh—seven, eight, maybe ten years
ago—he was almost 100, but very active. And whoever introduced me said, “Well, Joe
Kimm knew Amelia Earhart.” I said, “Really?”
So I went down and talked to Joe Kimm, and there was a very interesting story where
Northwest Airlines in 1933 was trying to basically develop air routes from Minneapolis
west to Seattle. Now, this was in the days of the Ford Trimotor, right, and everybody was
flying VFR, visual flight rules, which means you had to be able to see where you were
going because that was the only way to get there. And you had to be able to find the
passes in the mountains to get over the Rockies, and nobody had done it before.
And so Joe Kimm started out, I think, in 19—I want to say ‘25 or something—first as a—
I’m not sure what he did initially, but eventually he became a copilot for Northwest. And
the CEO of Northwest decided we’re going to go kind of pioneer this route, and to get
some publicity, we’re going to take Amelia Earhart, who had began to develop some
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fame, along for the ride. And we’ll do it as a PR route, and we’ll go from Minneapolis to
Fargo to Bismarck to Helena and whatnot, and we’ll stop along the way and so on and so
forth.
Anyway, so Joe Kimm is the copilot of—on this flight. They were pretty good going all
the way over until they got to—I think it was Helena. The weather turned bad. They were
determined to push through and literally were trying passes and following the Clark
[Fork] River over in Spokane. And the weather got so bad with a snowstorm and
whatnot, they basically had to stop in Spokane and were clearly going to be snowed in for
a few days. And Joe was told to go down and find appropriate hotel accommodations for
the party, including Amelia Earhart.
So he went down to the—I think it was the Davenport Hotel in Spokane. They said, “We
need your best room.” And they said, “Sure, we’ve got a suite. It’s got a bedroom and a
dining room and whatnot.” It was 75 dollars a night. And so they all went to—had a big
dinner down there while they were waiting out the snowstorm before they proceeded on
to Seattle.
Well, Joe took a picture of Amelia Earhart—so he spent like several days with her.
Anyway, he took a picture on his Brownie camera, and even when I saw him eight or
nine years ago, he had Amelia Earhart’s picture taped to a cabinet in his kitchen. So I
thought that was an interesting story. This guy’s not going to write about it. Why not go
out and videotape him?
And that’s really how I got interested in the whole notion of oral history. So we have a lot
of great people who are not likely to write their stories, but maybe they’ll talk about
them. And if we can somehow capture these things in a way that makes them usable as a
reference, where we can literally index it and so on and so forth, to be able to go and
retrieve it on whatever topic it is, there’s value there. We had a lot of people, trustees of
the Museum, that we have been able to capture since we started that program. And that’s
why—that’s how I got interested in oral history and why Mary Kay and I continue to
support that program.
SL:
I always wondered quite what that was. I knew there was some Amelia Earhart
connection, but I didn’t know what it was.
MH:
Well, Captain Kimm was quite—I mean, even at 90, he was skiing. And he was a pilot
with Northwest right up until jets entered the pictures in the ‘60s. And he wanted to be
trained on jets to qualify there, but he was close to retirement and they wouldn’t do it, so
he basically decided to retire and go off and do something else. But he was a pretty
colorful character. Even at 90, he was a pretty colorful character.
SL:
Yeah, it sounds like he was.
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MH:
And so I think he was oral history number one in the list of things.
SL:
Oh, that’s awesome. I’d like to look at that one. I’ll have to see that at some point. We
have—on Sunday, there’s two docents that worked for Northwest—or, well, docent and
gallery ambassador. Darlene worked there for 48 years and started out in DC-4s, so she
might actually know him.
MH:
Good.
SL:
It would be fun to talk to her and just see what stories she has.
01:12:27
[Vietnam Veterans Memorial Park]
SL:
You also, I think, were involved in the building of the Vietnam Veteran Memorial Park
that we have here, too.
MH:
Well, you know, we had that—we had a B-52 that was on loan to us parked up at Paine
Field in Everett for 15 or 16 years, and once a year we’d have to go out and have
somebody inspect it to make sure it wasn’t fully armed and carrying nuclear weapons.
But beyond that, it was—nobody could see it. It literally was in the middle of one of the
fields up there. And I got to talking to Jim Farmer one day. He was down in the cafeteria
and was clearly frustrated with trying to figure out what to do. Because he was, as you
know, a B-52 pilot. How do we display this airplane? Can we move it somewhere close
to the Restoration Center? At one point in time, there was at least some drawings on,
well, let’s cut the nose off and put the nose in the Great Gallery.
And I said, “Jim, we don’t want to do that. Keep going.” I had no creative idea on what to
do with it because I really didn’t know. I mean, it was an airplane. It’s huge. Huge. I
mean, at one point in time, there was a plan to put it over the entrance to the Museum
elevated so you would have to drive under it, which didn’t seem like a particularly good
idea.
In any event, they came up with a plan to display it out behind the Aviation Pavilion. And
we had a couple iterations of that. And anyway, that evolved into a, “Let’s raise the
money and put it down there intact if we can do it.” Part of it is just the size. And let’s
expand it just from not just a B-52 display, but let’s use it as a way to recognize our
Vietnam vets. And so that evolved into what it was. Again, I have no creative
responsibility for it other than being a cheerleader for it on raising the money to do it.
And I think it’s been really a tremendously important thing. I mean, there was some
question, well, if we put it back there, will anybody ever going to look at it? And it’s
amazing to me. Every time I go to the Museum, I’ll drive back there, and there will
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always be somebody reading the signage. You can tell that they’re of the era of Vietnam.
We had some, I think, 3,500 people at the dedication, which was a fantastic event. My
brother was there giving guided tours of the airplane, where did he sit and telling amazing
stories. The plane was actually an Ellsworth plane. He may have flown it, actually, when
he was up at Ellsworth, that plane.
It was the original crew that actually got this thing going that came back for a reunion
and said, “This plane’s just sitting out here. Let’s do something about it.” And they were
instrumental in prodding the Museum to do something more. And people really got
caught up in it, in the opportunity to put both the exhibit over in the Great Gallery, plus
having the airplane out there.
As my brother pointed out, the bombardier and the navigator for the B-52, he said—he
had multiple tours of duty—sat in a windowless compartment of the plane facing
backwards. [laughs] And so their tour of Vietnam was done by looking at the radar
screen. The head for the plane was actually down behind their compartment so that—
periodically the flight crew would come down and say, “How do you guys take—stand it
out here? I mean, you can’t see anything.” He said, “Well, just make sure you takeoff
okay, because if we ever have to eject, our seats fire down, and you’ve got to at least get
up to some level of altitude to give us a chance to do it.” [coughs] And they were flying
out of Guam, and Guam has basically a cliff at the end of the runway, which is good
because these airplanes were taking off fully loaded—[coughs]—both bombs and fuel, to
make what turned out to be—I think it was like a 14-hour roundtrip mission, including
one refueling stop, to drop a load of bombs on Vietnam.
So it was a wonderful tribute to all the veterans. And I’m really proud of the Museum for
doing that.
SL:
It’s certainly been well received. We do have a lot of folks that go over there and talk
about it. I know there’s several of the people on there are very well known to the
Museum or work there, are docents there.
MH:
Right. Well, I think the Museum’s done a great job in recognizing veterans in all forms. I
mean, we always do something for Veterans Day, Armed Forces Day. We replace the
flags.
As part of my work at the University of Michigan, I knew the vice president of
development there quite well, and he came out to the Museum a number of times because
his father was a—flew in B-17s during the war, was shot down over Germany, spent 18
months in a prisoner-of-war camp. And the opportunity to see the airplane that his father
flew in, as well as I got to talk to his father, thank him for his service, which I think is one
of the jobs we have and need to continue to have, to recognize our service people. The
country doesn’t appreciate what we do. I mean, when—once we got out of Vietnam, we
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just really don’t do enough recognition of what these service people do. And it’s in many
ways a thankless job that doesn’t pay well, has its dangers, but it’s quite important.
SL:
Right. I had the opportunity this last week to take one of those Vietnam service pins—
MH:
Cool.
SL:
—and the award down to a person in Texas. He had never even heard of it before. But he
flew 101s and 102s in the early 1960s.
MH:
Oh, yeah.
SL:
So that right era. And he really appreciated it.
MH:
Oh, yeah. No, it’s—and there’s just some great history there.
01:19:20
[Relationship with Bill Boeing Jr.]
SL:
To be able to do it is wonderful. Yeah. One other thing that I find interesting: back in
2011, you were able to give the—
MH:
2011. [laughs]
SL:
You were able to give the Red Barn Award—
MH:
To Bill Boeing
SL:
—to Bill Boeing.
MH:
Oh, yeah.
SL:
And then now, you have received that Red Barn Award.
MH:
Yes. I think I’m one of four—
SL:
One of four. Yeah.
MH:
—that have gotten it. Well, you know, Bill Boeing was just an amazing person. I had met
him prior to becoming the interim CEO but didn’t know him well. And as we went
through that transitional period, tough financial situation, transition to a new CEO,
improving the morale, it was very clear that he both understood the problems and wasn’t
very happy with everything that was going on here. So part of my job, besides coming in
and smiling and signing a few letters, was to try to build the trust and confidence in Bill.
So I would go down once or twice, sometimes three times a month, as long as I bought
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the sandwiches, we would either sit in his office downtown or, when he moved home, at
his kitchen table, and we’d talk about the Museum. And I learned a great deal from him.
And he had a memory that was unbelievable. I mean, he literally could remember
things—he remembered when Boeing Field was dedicated, and he was just a little kid. I
think it was 1928 or something. He was sitting on the podium when his dad was doing
some of the ribbon-cutting stuff. I mean, he rescued the Red Barn for the Museum, which
is really the first Museum building. His father had bought it for a dollar in order to have a
building to build the B&W, his floatplane. And as Bill said, “My dad bought it for a
dollar, and I spent a million dollars to get it moved to the Museum.” I said, “Well, Bill,
it’s a great investment.”
In any event, I got to know Bill quite well, and he was a wonderful mentor and resource
to learn about early aviation, the role airplanes played in the— really, in the development
of the world. So I was quite honored to be a recipient of the Red Barn Award. As I say,
I’m not an airplane guy. I’m a computer guy. And so it was quite the honor and to know
Bill and to really learn from him. He was a remarkable person. A tremendous supporter
of the Museum.
But he was kind of funny. He bailed us out of a couple of financial difficulties there in
the—that we were talking about in 2008. But I was up on Whidbey Island. We have a
home—a second home on Whidbey Island, and he would call up and say, “Mike, I need
you to come down and pick up a check for the Museum.” And I would say, “Oh, Bill, it’s
a ferry [unintelligible].” He said, “No, I’d like you to pick it up.” Which he always did.
And so he would go down, and he’d take a—I think, one time, a 12 million dollar check
down to the Museum. And I would always drop it off at Matt Hayes’ desk and ask to be
reimbursed for parking in kind of a casual way. [laughs]
But we went through a situation there during 2008, I think it was, where we had a line of
credit, I think, with Bank of America that was kind of leftover financing from the
Personal Courage Wing. And Bank of America came in one day and said, “Well, we
don’t think not-for-profits are particularly good investments, so we’re canceling your
loan.” And Bill Boeing got so mad. And he said, “Well, I use Wells Fargo. I’ll get it set
up. Wells Fargo will carry it.” And then later on, he basically paid that off anyway. He
was a great friend of the Museum, and he’s a—had great insight, both on the industry and
to what we were doing, was always interested in education and always interested in
young people.
01:24:05
[Philanthropy and legacy]
SL:
That’s cool. That’s a great story to hear.
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MH:
Yeah.
SL:
I never had the opportunity to meet him, unfortunately.
MH:
Oh no.
SL:
[unintelligible]
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
And that kind of leads me kind of towards the wrapping up of this thing. But part of what
you do, what you’ve been able to do, is an awful lot of philanthropy, a significant
amount, everywhere you’ve lived. And I don’t know that you want to get into specifics
on any of that, but I just kind of like your philosophy, to hear a little bit about why you
want to do this. There’s so much that you do for so many—such a wide range. And like
you say, you’re not an airplane guy, but we’re a big recipient of your generosity.
MH:
Well, you know, we’ve been—I’ve been very fortunate. I couldn’t have planned a better
career. I worked for three great companies at different stages of their evolution. I was
very fortunate to get into—involved with the computer industry in its infancy, back when
computing really took off with IBM, and got to see that whole industry evolve in the way
it has. And people don’t realize [unintelligible] they don’t realize history relative to the
aviation. They don’t realize the history of computing. When I started with IBM, memory
for the 360 was in a big box. The reason it’s called Core is exactly what it was, was iron
core, something that weighs a ton. So a 256 K of memory times eight—or actually nine
little iron rings, that’s what Core was. 256 K of memory we rented for $10,000 a month.
Now, nobody will believe you when you tell them that, but that’s what it was.
But I got to see that industry evolve. I got to participate in the aviation industry with my
time with Boeing and through The Museum of Flight. My consulting practice, I was on
the board of Intuit, for example, TurboTax. I had a 19-year relationship with Fujitsu,
which was like the IBM of Japan, and I got to know the executives there quite well.
And so we got lucky, but we’re basically the same family with its roots, in my case, in
Wilmington, Delaware, and in Mary Kay’s case, in a farm in Indiana. And so particularly
with children and young women, education was important, and that’s where most of our
philanthropy goes. University of Michigan, the Museum, the various schools. We gotten
involved with Evergreen Hospital of late, trying to put resources in there. So we live very
comfortably. And we’ve tried to teach philanthropy to the kids, so that we have a donoradvised fund and we have a separate donor-advised fund that we use for matching gifts
for the kids and grandchildren’s giving. So long as they put up their own money, they can
get some of Grandpa’s money, too. And that’s always a good goal.
SL:
[unintelligible]
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MH:
And so we get a huge sense of satisfaction, not of getting things named for us, but of
doing things that are important. The Spaceflight Academy over at the Museum was
something that we supported. Getting the Shuttle here was important. So our needs are
taken care of, and I guess I’d rather give it away than let the politicians take it later.
SL:
That’s a pretty darn good philosophy, I’d say. Yeah.
MH:
So that’s not probably on a popular theme with the politicians, but—
SL:
[laughs] That’s okay. Well, kind of one last question from me, anyway, is what would
you like people who view this—students, future researchers—what would you like them
to take away from this? What would you like to be remembered for?
MH:
Well, I guess—I don’t know that I want to be remembered for anything. [coughs]
SL:
Well, you don’t for your philanthropy, because your name might be associated, but not—
you don’t flash it around.
MH:
It might be. Well…
SL:
It’s there.
MH:
Yeah. But the point of it is, is we have built over the last now 60 years—I forget the exact
anniversary we’re on now, but it’s getting close to that, if not there already—a
tremendous institution. We’ve had great trustees, great leadership that have great insight,
and have really created a fantastic resource for the community. And it’s a place—no
matter what your interest, if you’re [unintelligible], you can go and find something to do.
If you’re a mother with a little kid, you’ve got—can find something to do. But we’ve got
stories to tell. We’ve got a place to educate people on both specific things but also the
value of education. And so I hope we’re leaving the world with an institution—and I say
“the world” in the broadest sense because I think we’re way beyond a local or regional
institution—with a resource that will continue to grow and mature
And that’s why strategic planning is important. We’re in a process of doing that now. I
led an effort in 2010 when I was CEO of a strategic planning process, Vision 2020. As a
result of my relationship with Bill Boeing, he made me a trustee of his charitable
foundation. And so we’re continuing to do that along with our own work and trying to
support organizations in the community that are doing similar things. Health and human
services, education, medical research, the universities. And so I just believe it’s important
that you give back to the community and make an investment in the community and that
we’re best able to do that in the Museum in a selected area. And I think we’re doing a
great job. I mean, that’s the difference between this institution and others. We have made
great progress, broadened our horizon, broadened our reach, expanded our reach, and
we’ll continue to do that in the future.
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SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. No, that makes very good sense. I like that a lot. Any areas that
we haven’t covered that you’d like to talk about?
MH:
Well, you know, we’ve covered a lot. I mean, as I say, I’ve been very fortunate to have
the long-term relationship with the Museum that I have and from kind of humble
beginnings of just going to the trustee meetings. The Exhibit Committee was truly
transformational for me, as we talked about earlier, and really touched my hot button that
I’ve always had of history and reading. I think that we have been able to continue to
expand our ability to communicate and tell stories. And I’m sure there’s many, many
stories that we could go on with, but I’m not sure that the listener to this wants to hear all
those stories. But this has been a 30-year relationship—31-year now, I guess, relationship
with the Museum. It won’t continue forever, but it’s been extremely rewarding.
And I’ve been very lucky. As we talked about earlier, God knows that. Two great
industries, three great companies, a great institution here. We’ve had a great family
support, both Mary Kay and I. We’ve tried to support our own family. Don’t have one
pilot in the whole bunch. They’re more into horses.
SL:
That’s all right.
MH:
But when I look at my granddaughter wanting to be an elementary school teacher, that’s
where the reward is.
01:33:14
[Dealing with crises and tragedies]
SL:
Yeah. [unintelligible], it really is. Questions from either Kelci [Kelci Hopp, Oral History
Program Administrator], Peder [Peder Nelson, Digital Engagement Manager]? Anything
else that—
KELCI HOPP:
Steve, would you mind asking about some contemporary events? As in
[unintelligible] or maybe September 11th or…?
SL:
Oh, yeah. That’s something that we kind of talked about a little bit, Kelci and I, before.
You were on the Museum’s board when 9/11 happened, for instance, and when the—I
think when the earthquake that closed the runway and any impacts on that that you’d like
to talk about towards the Museum, towards you?
MH:
Well, I don’t have any specifics, other than the fact that I think the Museum generally has
been able to react extremely well to what I’ll call their own crises. The most recent one of
note was when we lost all the powerlines in front of the Museum, trapping people in the
Museum. We reacted well. We’re reacting quite well in dealing with the COVID crisis.
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I don’t recall specifically what was going on when 9/11 occurred. I mean, that whole day
was kind of a blur for a lot of people. Mary Kay and I were here watching it on
television. But again, you weave all those issues into your current activities. Some of
them you change policies and practice, some of it you put exhibits on, some of it you talk
about later. But those events occur. They’re going to continue to occur. We need to be
ready. I mean, look, we’re dealing in a different world today, and we’ve got to protect
our—the Museum, artifacts, library, and stuff, and protect our visitors and protect our
staff. And I’m really proud of what the Museum’s done during this COVID thing. I mean,
it’s been a tough two years now, going on three years, to deal with COVID. We’re open,
we’re closed. I mean—
SL:
Volunteers are here, volunteers are not [unintelligible]—
MH:
Yeah, yeah.
SL:
—and staff reductions.
MH:
So it’s kind of an amazing thing. And then the Museum is so dependent on volunteers. I
mean, I forget—I think we have like 500 of them. And we couldn’t run the place without
our volunteers. And to keep encouraging people to—whether it be restoration or docents
or doing administrative work. But we’ve got to take care of our own family, if you will,
and we need to keep pushing forward with our—what we think our mission is. Not “we
think.” We know our mission.
SL:
We know what the mission is. Yeah. [unintelligible].
MH:
And so I think we’re doing a great job. We have great leadership. We are so fortunate to
have an active board of trustees that bring a lot of expertise to it, are willing to get
involved, but get involved to the point of being advisors and cheerleaders, not trying to
run the place.
SL:
But not managers.
MH:
And that’s a very tricky line to walk with so many organizations. And we’ve managed to
do it for as long as I’ve been involved quite admirably. And I hope we continue to do
that.
01:36:46
[Thoughts on the Museum’s future]
SL:
Were you instrumental in bringing Matt back in, by any chance?
MH:
Well, yeah. Matt—I guess I technically hired Matt back in the—at the time. He came
right after I was there.
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SL:
Okay.
MH:
And I think I did the interview by telephone and brought him back in. And Matt’s both a
great friend and a great resource. I’ve gotten to know great people—I mean, trustees.
Gene McBrayer and Ed Renouard. I was on the Planning Committee with them as we
were trying to build these buildings. I was either—as the interim CEO when we were
doing the Space Gallery and so on and so forth. But those are two great resources. Bruce
McCaw. It’s kind of interesting to go visit Bruce’s little personal museum over in
Bellevue.
SL:
I bet it is.
MH:
And so it’s just amazing the people we’ve been able to attract from many, many walks of
life, many different skills. And each one of us brought something new. We got into the—
focusing on space for a while. We have the space medicine exhibit now. And so there’s
just so many avenues we can explore or the—and we have to manage—make sure our
appetite stays consistent with our ability to do things. But we should never stop growing
and figuring how to reach more people and tell more stories. And that’s the challenge
coming up now is we’re literally running out of space at Boeing Field to do things. And
so we’ve got some tough decisions ahead as to how do we continue the programmatic
stuff over a broader area, region and the state and whatnot, given the footprint that we
have.
The Museum’s a place where you don’t casually drive by and say, “I think I’ll go to the
Museum today.” You have to want to get there.
SL:
True.
MH:
And so it’s a disadvantage in that sense, that we’re not quite as accessible. But what we
have at Boeing Field is an active airport and a great facility now. But we’ve got to ask
ourselves some tough questions going into this strategic planning process is what do we
do next? Do we try to create a footprint somewhere else in the state? Do we try to do
something more at Paine Field? Do we go to Spokane or whatever? Do we start having
the affiliate program? There’s a lot of great, small museums in the area that are
interesting. I’m working with the Pacific Northwest Naval Museum in Oak Harbor,
whose only plane is an old PBY—
SL:
I’ve heard of that, yes.
MH:
—that we’re trying to get a building for. I’ve got a sentimental attachment to it because if
it weren’t for the PBY picking up my dad in the Solomon Sea, I wouldn’t be here at all.
But can we support other museums with that, either loaned articles—artifacts or
whatever? So there’s a lot of strategic directions we have to take. And fortunately, the
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board is diverse in their thinking and supportive of those ideas, and that’s why this
upcoming long-range planning process is so important. [coughs] Excuse me.
SL:
It seems like that’s something that the Museum is pretty darn good at, from what I’ve
seen. I’ve only been at the Museum five years as a volunteer. And—
MH:
Well, you’ve got another 25 years to go to catch up with me.
SL:
At least, yes. [laughs] That’s if you were done now.
MH:
No, they do. We’ve had some great strategic planning processes. I headed up the one in
2010, the Vision 2020, and we got most of that stuff done. We’ve got to look at our
education facilities. Do we—there’s a whole set of things we ought to be thinking about.
Can we do something more with the Boeing archives out in Bellevue, where they’ve got
their history? Can we somehow use that? Can we use some of the other small aviation
museums around the state to create an affiliate program? I don’t know what we’re going
to do, but we now have a unique opportunity to plan what the Museum looks like. And
pick a year, 2035, what’s the headline you want to write then? And we did this exercise
at the last board meeting as to what’s the headline in 2035. And I think the one I wrote
was—is “The Museum Opens its Third Site in Spokane.” When you say it that way, it
means that you’ve already opened the second site somewhere.
SL:
Yeah. Someplace.
MH:
I’m not sure my fellow trustees agree with all that, but we’ve got to keep thinking that
way and exploring those ideas and testing them relative to the mission, the programs we
have, and obviously, the financial resources that are available to us.
01:42:09
[Aviation experiences]
SL:
[addressing a member of the crew] Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. [addressing Hallman]
Not an airplane guy, we know, but you’ve been around airplanes for a long time. You
obviously have an interest in them and a history. Do you have a favorite aircraft or
spacecraft or anything in the Museum that’s a favorite and why?
MH:
Well, I guess the favorite airplane is the Triple 7 [Boeing 777], partly because I was
somewhat involved with it and partly because—[coughs]—I spent quite a bit of time
flying back and forth to Japan in them. And it’s an amazing airplane.
I think the 787 is interesting because of the technology change that we see there. The use
of composites, the different ways we manage energy and electricity—electrical systems
on it. I don’t think the Museum’s going to get a B-25 anytime in the future, but I can go
look at the ones up at the other museums up in Everett. But we continue to fill in the
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blanks on what roles did aviation play, not only in the military, but in the civilian stuff.
And it’s the diversity of things that we acquire then that I think are—that are important.
So I don’t have a favorite, per se. I just—I periodically—one of the nice things about
being CEO is when the place closes and the people leave, you can sort of wander around
at your leisure. And you’ve seen them all before, but then you can examine more closely.
And then once in a while, the guard will come up and want to shoo you out. But that was
one of the advantages I had, to have time to look at it. I think we need to tell the stories in
better ways, more expansive ways, so that depending on what the interest of the visitor is,
they can either go into depth on something. And I think there’s a lot of technology that
will allow us to do that.
But if I had to pick an airplane, it would be the 777, I think. That’s the only one that I had
any—and it was very—“involvement’s” a strong word because I wasn’t [unintelligible]
involved. I had an opportunity over the three and a half years with Boeing Company to be
an observer of my people doing it. I never take credit for it.
SL:
What was the first airplane you rode on? Do you remember?
MH:
Oh, I do remember. I was in high school in Pennsylvania. The assistant football coach
was in the Navy Reserve and got to take the team, if you will, on a—I think it was a DC8. It was one of the prop planes, obviously. I can’t remember what it was. DC-4—
SL:
DC-7—
MH:
DC—smaller. That was the first time. And it was a Navy plane, so we were sitting in
fairly uncomfortable seats facing the aisle, facing the center of the airplane.
SL:
That was probably a DC-4.
MH:
DC-4.
SL:
Probably was.
MH:
But that was the first time and it really went up. And I always enjoyed the Collings
Foundations’ visits because I got to fly in a B-25 and a B-17 and a B-24. And I continue
to marvel at our aviators in World War II. I mean, these people were in airplanes where if
you push the skin, they actually went in—
SL:
Yeah. Oil cans. [laughs]
MH:
And they had these little panels that sort of were like armor plate, but they really weren’t,
to protect certain parts of the airplane. And I know when you’re taking off in those flights
on the B-17 is is don’t grab any wires because some of them are connected to the control
surfaces and the pilot’s controls, and you’ll be flying the airplane, not the pilot. And so
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the opportunity to experience in a very tiny way what my father, my father-in-law went
through. My father’s fairly tall. He was 6’2’’. And to get to the nose of a B-25, you have
to crawl through a tunnel that goes under the pilot’s seat. And so he obviously did it, but
it’s kind of an interesting journey. And it’s that tunnel that was there that allowed them to
put the 75 millimeter cannon in because that’s where it went.
SL:
Oh, that’s where it went.
MH:
The loader sat—I mean, this thing was huge. The loader sat behind the pilot and handloaded individual rounds in the thing. So to get those experiences to me was just
absolutely fascinating. It was getting history in a much more real way than reading about
it.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah.
MH:
And that’s the kind of stuff I like.
01:47:36
[Concluding remarks]
SL:
Yeah. Did you build models when you were a kid?
MH:
Oh, yeah. Gosh, we did. Some flying, some static. My dad was a Scout leader, and we
always had to have the biggest plane or—I remember building kites one time, and he was
determined—then we had a contest. Who could get their kite up the highest? My gosh,
we had the biggest kite, and I swear we had a quarter-inch rope on it to keep it attached.
But, boy, we were going to get that puppy up.
SL:
[laughs] Did you?
MH:
Oh, yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
MH:
Yeah.
SL:
Oh, that’s fun.
MH:
But those were the fun experiences you had with that. I remember we took the—
[laughs]—were living in Aiken, South Carolina at the time, and we went up to Columbia
to a University of South Carolina football game. It was Scouting Day. So if you can
imagine a stadium that’s got like 20,000 Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts in it. And we had
driven up in cars, and we got ready to leave, and they were doing a head count. My dad
was doing a head count. And we ended up with one extra person, who started to cry.
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Well, trying to find their Scoutmaster when everybody looked the same—they’re all
dressed in Scouting uniforms—it was kind of an interesting challenge.
But those were the kind of fun things you did with your parents. And I was very fortunate
to have very involved parents. I tried to be involved with our girls and granddaughters.
And that’s my reward in doing all this stuff, is making sure they’ve got every
opportunity. Maybe I’m more sensitive because we’ve got granddaughters and daughters,
to make sure that they can be independent and have access to the things that—they can do
what they want to do without not having to do it because they need the pay. And that’s
why I’m particularly proud of my granddaughter wanting to be a teacher.
SL:
That makes very good sense to me. And you’ve obviously been involved and have been
able to provide some wonderful opportunities for them. And they were willing and smart
enough to take you up on those.
MH:
Well, they—I’m not sure they were willing all the time. They were still—they’re still
teenagers. [laughs]
SL:
[laughs] Yeah. [unintelligible].
MH:
And that’s fine. I want them to be independent. That’s always interesting to see the
phases you go through.
SL:
Yeah. I have daughters as well, and they’re in their mid-30s and—yeah.
MH:
Well, then you can—you know exactly what I’m talking about.
SL:
I can relate. Yes. Okay. Well, with that, are there any other questions from here? If not,
I’d like to say thank you so very, very much. I really appreciate it.
MH:
Good. No, I’ve enjoyed it. I’ve sort of avoided this for some time. I didn’t really
necessarily think my stories were particularly interesting.
SL:
They are interesting. They really are. Everybody has a story. Yours are interesting, a lot
in how they relate to the Museum. And personally, thank you for everything that you’ve
done for the Museum. This oral history program in particular for me has been wonderful.
I learn so much from the people I get a chance to talk to.
MH:
Good.
SL:
I appreciate it.
MH:
Well, I’m happy to do it. And I guess I will continue along with the Museum as long as I
can.
SL:
Excellent. Thank you.
2021 © The Museum of Flight
�43
01:51:06
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2021 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hallman, Michael R., 1945-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Mike Hallman worked in Sales and Marketing with IBM, as the Boeing Company’s Chief Information Officer and then Microsoft’s Chief Operating Officer, and is a longtime trustee of the Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>Michael Robert Hallman was born in San Bernardino, California on June 6, 1945, to Frank and Virginia Hallman. He was the oldest of three children. His father flew B-25s in the Pacific theater during World War II, returning home in 1944 and then serving as a bombing and navigation instructor at George Air Force Base in Victorville, California. Hallman grew up around Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and spent his high school years in suburban Chicago, Illinois. He then earned his bachelor’s in business administration in 1966 and MBA in 1967, both from the University of Michigan. While in school he worked summers for the Greyhound Bus Company escorting tours to New York City. He also made a few trips to Colorado Springs, Colorado, where he met Mary Kay Johnson, whom he married in 1967.</p>
<p>After graduation Hallman joined International Business Machines (IBM) in the sales and marketing area. He started out in Chicago in 1968. Over his 20-year career at IBM he held several different positions, remaining primarily sales and marketing. He moved among several IBM locations in addition to Chicago including Detroit, Michigan; White Plains, New York; St. Louis, Missouri; and Atlanta, Georgia. By the end of his tenure with IBM he was Vice President of Field Operations with responsibility for half of the country’s sales and service support.</p>
<p>Recruited by Boeing Computer Services (BCS) in 1987, Hallman ran their computer operations for services provided to non-Boeing companies. These included the Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, the U.S. Department of Energy’s Hanford Site, NASA Ground Communications, and the New York Police Department. Hallman was promoted to President of BCS just as Boeing was embarking on the 777 program, which was their first airplane designed entirely with computers. In his time at BCS, Hallman managed the transition from slide rules and drafting tables to the CATIA computer system.</p>
<p>In 1990 Microsoft recruited Hallman to become their President. Joining the company when they were early in the development of personal computers, he managed the company to $1 billion in sales while streamlining operations.</p>
<p>At about this same time Hallman joined the Museum of Flight’s Board of Trustees. In the more than three decades he has served with the Board, he has served as the Museum’s Chairman, Vice Chairman, and as the interim President and CEO during a time of transition. He has chaired the Exhibits Committee, the Communications and Marketing Committee, the Compensation Committee, several gala committees, and has served on virtually every standing committee of the board.</p>
<p>While serving as a Trustee, Hallman’s primary focus has centered on enhancing the Museum’s educational mission. With a vision to record and preserve important stories of people who worked, lived, and shaped aviation, he and his wife created the Mary Kay and Michael Hallman Oral History Program. He also helped establish the Michael and Mary Kay Hallman Spaceflight Academy exhibit. In 2020 Hallman was the fourth recipient of the Red Barn Heritage Award in recognition of his significant and exceptional commitment to The Museum of Flight. His relationship with the late William E. Boeing, Jr. and their mutual admiration for one another lead to his appointment as the only trustee representative of the Aldarra Foundation, the Boeing family’s foundation.</p>
<p>As of 2022, Hallman continues to live in the Seattle area and maintains his involvement with the Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Michael R. Hallman oral history interview
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Michael R. Hallman and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, October 25, 2021.
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Museum of Flight trustee Michael R. “Mike” Hallman is interviewed about his life and experiences in the computer, aviation, and nonprofit fields. He discusses his career with International Business Machines (IBM) during the 1960s through the late 1980s and his subsequent careers with Boeing Computer Services and Microsoft. He also discusses his involvement with The Museum of Flight as a trustee, interim CEO, and (along with his wife, Mary Kay) co-founder of the Museum’s Oral History Program.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Father’s military service during World War II -- Family and educational background -- Career with IBM -- Career with Boeing and Microsoft -- Interest in aviation and education and involvement with The Museum of Flight -- Experiences as Museum’s interim CEO -- Story about Captain Joe Kimm and interest in oral histories -- Vietnam Veterans Memorial Park -- Relationship with Bill Boeing Jr. -- Philanthropy and legacy -- Dealing with crises and tragedies -- Thoughts on the Museum’s future -- Aviation experiences -- Concluding remarks
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-10-25
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boeing Computer Services
Boeing Model 777 Family
Boeing, Bill, Jr., 1922-2015
Hallman, David, 1948-
Hallman, Frank M., 1921-1996
Hallman, Mary Kay
Hallman, Michael R., 1945-
International Business Machines Corporation
Kimm, Joseph Edward
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
World War, 1939-1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 51 min., 6 sec.) : digital
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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OH_Hallman_Michael
OH_Hallman_Michael_transcription
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/18e57d1d9e436bb0d6bd68a6a5b3851e.mp4
43515df96ddeb9c4e869da9ffc0daa75
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/f7ae5e30932c4796d8c5e630005afe76.pdf
048995d11cfb33dbe43e19ba75d632f9
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Soyeon Yi
Interviewed by: Geoff Nunn
Date: November 28, 2017
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Astronaut Soyeon Yi is interviewed about her engineering career and her experiences as the first
Korean citizen to participate in a spaceflight mission. She discusses her academic work in
mechanical engineering at KAIST (Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology) during
the early 2000s and explains her motivations for applying to the Korean Astronaut Program
during her PhD studies. Yi then describes her spaceflight experiences, including her training in
Russia with Roscomos, her time on the International Space Station, and her work with KARI
(Korea Aerospace Research Institute) after returning to Earth. The interview concludes with a
discussion of Yi’s next career goals and her thoughts on the future of the Korean Space Program.
Biography:
Soyeon Yi is an engineer, scientist, and astronaut who, in April 2008, became the first Korean
citizen to participate in a spaceflight mission. She was born on June 2, 1978 in Gwangju, South
Korea to Gil-soo Yi and Geum-soon Jeong. Her father worked in a farmer’s association bank
until his retirement, and her mother was a homemaker. While in middle school, Yi was selected
by the Education Office to participate in a special afterschool program for gifted math and
science students. She continued her STEM-focused education at Gwangju Science High School
and KAIST (Korean Advanced Institute of Science and Technology), where she earned
bachelor’s and master’s degrees in mechanical engineering.
During her doctorate studies in biotech systems, Yi became interested in the government’s search
for candidates to serve as South Korea’s first astronaut. She applied to the astronaut program and
was selected as one of two finalists, along with Ko San. In 2007, she traveled to Russia to begin
training with Roscosmos for a flight to the International Space Station (ISS). She was initially
designated as the backup crewmember but was promoted to primary after Ko violated
regulations at the training center.
On April 8, 2008, Yi and her crewmembers, Commander Sergey Volkov and Flight Engineer
Oleg Kononenko, were launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome (Kazakhstan) aboard the
Soyuz TMA-12. They docked with the ISS two days later. While on the ISS, Yi oversaw a
number of multi-disciplinary experiments on behalf of KARI (Korea Aerospace Research
Institute). On April 19, 2008, after 11 days in space, she returned to Earth aboard Soyuz TMA-11
with Commander Peggy Whitson and Flight Engineer Yuri Malenchenko.
Following her return to Earth, Yi worked for KARI as a researcher and spokeswoman. She also
attended the International Space University in France and earned a Master of Business
Administration at the University of California, Berkeley. In 2014, Yi decided to resign from
KARI to pursue other career opportunities. She settled in Washington State with her Korean-
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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American husband and became a college instructor. As of 2017, she was a volunteer at The
Museum of Flight, participating in programs to promote STEM education.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Geoff Nunn is the Adjunct Curator for Space History at The Museum of Flight and also serves as
an Exhibit Developer in the Museum’s Exhibits Department. He holds a Master’s degree in
Museology (Museum Studies) from the University of Washington and has extensive experience
working as an educator and exhibit developer at science and technology museums. At The
Museum of Flight, he serves as the resident historian and curator for spaceflight, leading the
Museum’s efforts to document the past, present, and future of aerospace.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
High school and college years ........................................................................................................ 6
Postgraduate studies ...................................................................................................................... 14
Astronaut application and selection process ................................................................................. 15
Selected as a finalist and balancing astronaut training and PhD work ......................................... 20
Selected as backup crewmember, training in Russia, and PhD dissertation ................................. 23
Transition to primary crew............................................................................................................ 24
Launch day .................................................................................................................................... 29
Arriving at the International Space Station ................................................................................... 32
ISS experiments and experiences.................................................................................................. 33
Soyeon’s song ............................................................................................................................... 35
Returning to Earth ......................................................................................................................... 36
Spokesperson work at KARI and involvement with the International Space University ............. 39
Decision to move to the United States .......................................................................................... 41
Involvement with The Museum of Flight and current activities................................................... 44
Thoughts on the future of the Korean Space Program .................................................................. 45
Favorite aircraft and first flight experience .................................................................................. 47
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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Soyeon Yi
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
GEOFF NUNN:
It is Tuesday, November 28th. My name is Geoff Nunn. We are here in
the Charles Simonyi Space Gallery at The Museum of Flight doing an oral history with
Soyeon Yi. So we’re going to start with some really easy questions. Soyeon, can you
please first tell us your name and spell it.
SOEYON YI: Oh, my name is Soyeon Yi. S-O-Y-E-O-N. That’s my first name. And last name
is Y-I.
GN:
Okay. So pronounced “E”?
SY:
“E,” yeah.
GN:
Okay, Soyeon Yi. And do you prefer to go by the first name/last name pronunciation or
last—
SY:
It doesn’t matter.
GN:
Doesn’t matter? Okay.
SY:
Yeah, yeah. It’s cool—whatever you feel comfortable.
GN:
Okay. And, Soyeon, when and where were you born?
SY:
I were [sic] born 1978 in Korea. The name of the Gwangju, the small, little city,
southwest.
GN:
And did you grow up in that same town?
SY:
Yeah. Around the area, yeah.
GN:
And what were your parents’ names and what did they do for a living?
SY:
My mom is Geum-soon Jeong, and she was a housewife full time. And then my father’s
name is Gil-soo Yi, and then he was working in a farmer’s association bank. So he’s kind
of like a banker for 30 years, and he’s celebrating 30 years’ service in a bank. And I was
so impressed because nowadays not that many people is working in the same company
for 30 years. And then retired right now, and they’re enjoying their retirement life.
GN:
Wonderful. And still in—
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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SY:
Yeah, still in Gwangju. Yeah.
GN:
Still in Gwangju. And when did you first become interested in space as—
SY:
That is a really interesting question because I even cannot recognize it. But I found
something and—yeah, I grew up with a small, little town. It’s right next to the farming
community. And my father is working for the farmers. We were not that kind of—quite
civilized area at all. And I always mingling with the friends whose fathers and mothers
are farmers. So I couldn’t even think of the space. But around my childhood, it was a
huge hit of the Japanese animation from the Japan to the Korea. It was translated or
subtitled. And I don’t know why, but most of the animation movies, they always themed
in space. So some trains are going into the space. You can go to the Mars and Jupiter by
the train. And I still remember that kind of animation, and I was so kind of fascinated
with that. So my mom found it when I applied for the astronaut, and then I drew some
kind of little drawing and then drew the trains going to the space. There was kind of
Saturns and Mars and around the trains, and then I was on the window and big smile with
my friends. So that was real interesting.
So finally, I realized that when I was a kid I was interested in space, but I totally forgot
and has any kind of energy or interest to space because it was too much for us. And just
studying in school as they kind of—managers—the course were never—in Korean kind
of curriculum, you don’t have that much electives during the middle school and high
school. Everything’s a requirement. Everything’s kind of required course. So I had just
followed the curriculum, so it doesn’t have any kind of spare energy to think about space.
But I realize that I loved math and science. So space is too much. [laughs] And, yeah, so
that kind of thing.
But only when I read the newspaper articles and Korean government thinking about it
and considering to find first Korean astronaut, and then I thought, oh, that would be cool.
But not that kind of big interest. And they said if we picked the first Korean astronaut,
maybe the person would be taking care of the experiment and then maybe that person
would be a scientist or engineer. And then I was the future engineer, engineering school
student, oh, that would be cool. Maybe I can try. So I was not that kind of huge space
nerd [unintelligible 00:04:26]. I just close to them, kind of STEM, but not space. Yeah.
00:04:33
[High school and college years]
GN:
And let’s talk a little bit about your education, your high school. Because you said you
grew up in this sort of rural farming community and your school was—tell us about
where you went to school.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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SY:
Yeah, that’s a good question because I grew up primary, middle school, you know,
farming area, but during the middle school, I was categorized and then picked by the
Education Office as a gifted student in math and science. So they had a special training
for the gifted program after the school. So I have afterschool program under the
Education Office. And during that education, I realized that there is a science high school
in Korea. I’ve never heard it before. But I heard about that. And then, yeah, I liked math
and science. Why not? So I just applied and take exam—really serious exam—and then
got an admission.
But even getting admission, I should debating: should I go there or not? Because I’ve
never thinking about to go into the STEM field until then. But my mom and dad was
excited. And then some of my friends, they really want to go there, but they cannot get an
admission, so I realize, oh, that’s quite exclusive. Then maybe I can try. So I entered to
the science high school. And that is a really, really STEM-specialized school, and more
than half of the curriculum is about math and science. And they even covered all the
college calculus and all the college physics. It was really fun. So that would be the huge
bias for me to kind of turn to the STEM area.
GN:
So you mentioned that you weren’t really thinking about going into a STEM career.
SY:
Yeah, I’ve never.
GN:
What were you thinking about wanting to do with your life prior to that?
SY:
Just kind of same as any other teenagers. You’re always influenced by the friends around
you. And when I was in middle school and primary school, everybody is always go back
to their farming area right after school because their parents are so busy. But thank God
my mom and dad is not a farmer, so I can enjoy my life. But I saw a lot of my friends
doing that.
And once I entered to the high school and around that area, because of the small, little
kind of team and cohort, they are all gifted science and math. And some of their parents
are quite well educated. They had a good knowledge about the future. They already
college graduate. They already have a doctor [doctorate?], and then they encouraging
their kid, “You should go to science high school. You should go to engineering school,
top 10 engineering school.” And they poured information. But I don’t have that
information because my mom never go to the middle school. She’s—final education was
the primary. And then my dad also never go to the college. He graduate from the high
school and then became a caller. So he’s not really banker. He’s more like a caller in a
bank. And so they cannot influence me. They cannot inspire me at all. But they always
told me, “Whatever you want you can try.” And then they always told me, “Sorry, I
cannot help you to find something because we don’t have those kinds of resource.” As a
people who are really desperate to get an information, whatever information is really
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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valuable. So my friends throw the information away. They just throw the resource away.
I just grab it. Oh, my God, that’s so cool. And then my friends, they just required to read
some book. They hate it, and they just leave it. And then I just ask them, “Can I read it?”
And they say, “Oh, please. I don’t like it.” And I read it. Wow, that’s really cool.
And so those friends influenced me a lot. And then sometimes I feel kind of—why they
just throw them away? It’s really valuable. But they cannot feel value because they kind
of required to do that. They obligated to do that. Whatever really good thing you are
obligated to do that, you just hate it. [laughs] But you really desperate to have one, even
if it’s not worth at all, seems really valuable. So those kind of dynamics and
environments always motivate me and then I want to get more. I want to study more,
even if I don’t have a resource. I really want to read it. And sometimes I feel so kind of—
how can I say—so excited because I don’t have huge resource. I don’t have a good
family background. But my math scores are better than that guy’s, even if his father is a
professor. Oh, that’s really cool. And then I feel so proud of myself, and it push me more
and further. Soyeon, you can do it. You should approve of yourself. You are better. And,
yeah, at that time I couldn’t think of that. But when I looking back time, maybe I would
act like that as a teenager. Yeah.
GN:
And so this high school that you got into, was it nearby to where you lived or was it a
boarding school—
SY:
Yeah, it was a boarding school. Even if it’s not that far from, the science high school
basically should be boarding school. They are all gathered together, study together, until
midnight usually—we should wake up and then study. It was quite kind of Spartan style
of the—typical Korean style. [laughs] But it is okay. So like a military. If you have a
colleague who do exactly same thing, you cannot feel tired. You just go to it as a group.
So even if it’s hard and even if it’s really strict—but I can tell that it is most fun life of
my life, even still now. Even compared with my astronaut training, that time is more fun.
Because all teenagers, living together—for us, six months is almost like a camping,
because I have never live with friends before. And even if it was really, really tough and
some teachers are really, really crucial—public enemy—we are all together as a group, so
we fight against them. But that was really fun, yeah.
GN:
And so then moving from this science high school, where did you go to college and what
was your course of study?
SY:
Yeah. If you are in a science high school, you are totally biased, so only selection is
engineering school, [unintelligible 00:10:38] school in Korea. And all the science high
school teacher push you. “You should go top five or top three and the number one
engineering school in Korea because you guys are good—” [unintelligible 00:10:50] the
science high school, we are kind of brainwashed. [laughs] So even if there’s more than
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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thousands university in Korea, we only have at most 10 selection, top 10 thing, and at
most five selection.
So I was totally biased. And should think about financial status, also, because think about
tuition and life expense. Already second-year, third-year high school students, you should
think about that. And I also should think about that, so I realize that it may be too much
and too expensive to go to the Seoul—to go the Seoul National University, because not
only tuition but also living expense and renting and everything’s more expensive. But
thank God in Korea is a Korean version of the MIT, but different from the MIT, is the
Korean—Korean MIT is called KAIST, Korean Advanced Institute of Science and
Technology, so government-subsidized school. So if you have a certain level of the GPA,
you have a full scholarship and guaranteed. And if you have a higher than certain GPA,
you got a scholarship and cash for your living expense. So you can pay your dormitory,
you can pay your transportation, you can pay your meal thing. And because it’s
government subsidized, you have a meal plan, so you can eat for free at certain point.
So I learned about that school. So kind around 1970, 1980, Korean government really
want to make economy boom, and they realize that we need a science space
[unintelligible 00:12:19]. So they really want to nurture the smart guys to be engineers.
So that’s the birth of that school. And I thought that is perfect for me because I don’t
have to worry about money once I study hard. But, of course, it’s really, really hard to get
[unintelligible 00:12:33]. So I told my mom and dad, “Mom, that school seems really
good, and you don’t have to worry about money. I don’t have to have a student loan or
anything.” But it’s not well-known until that time. Of course, nowadays, everybody
knows KAIST. But when I was a high school student, it’s really specialized, open to only
a small group of the best math students. So general public doesn’t know about that school
at all. It’s under the cover. And my mom and dad, “Oh, why don’t you go to the Seoul
National University?” Because everybody knows that school, like Harvard. And yeah,
that seems also good, but that school’s a generally good school, not for the best of the
engineering. But I really want to go to the special engineering school. And good for the
financial, also. And Mom and Dad, finally they said, “Oh, yeah. It’s your choice. It’s
your life. You can feel free to pick.”
And most biggest point is if you are smart enough, if you are evaluated—kind of
qualified, you can go to the college right after second year of the high school, not after
graduate. So you can save one year. And that is a huge benefit as a high school student
because you don’t like to go to high school. What kind of high school students they love
to go to the high school? [laughs] They really want to be a college student because
they’re cool. And then KAIST—some KAIST recruiting people come to our school, and
they kind of marketing about the school. You know what, if you’re qualified, you can
miss one year of high school. You can come to the KAIST. And then I was so fascinated
with that. And I don’t want to be locked in a prison like a dormitory in a boarding school.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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All the boarding school students, they feel like they are prisoner inside of the dorm. And
wow, I can be free. And that’s so fascinating.
And I realize, okay, KAIST would be my dream school. I should go there. More
interesting thing is, not because of the value of the school, but because only one year
missing high school, that is not a good motivation. And even if my GPA and everything’s
good enough, I don’t know why I [unintelligible 00:14:36] fail to get an admission. And
then KAIST doesn’t give me an admission. And then even my homeroom teacher, all the
school teachers, feels so weird because we have a team of the students who is only kind
of aimed to the KAIST. A hundred twenty students whole in my classmate, and around
90 students, they really want to go to the university around the whole nation. Thirty of
them, they are aimed to the KAIST because their admission process is totally different
from the other school and you should have essay question of the math and physics. You
should write the three-page of the solution of [unintelligible 00:15:11] for solving the
physics, even if you are a high school student. So you should have a totally different
curriculum for that.
So I joined them, and that whole year of second year of my high school was to fight
against that admission process. And I was average, a little bit higher than average, so
there’s no doubt to fail because every single science high school, they make almost 95%
in that group of students getting admission from the KAIST. So some students behind me
and they got an admission, but I’m the only person who got no admission at all, even if
everybody [unintelligible 00:15:45]. My mom was shocked, and I also shocked. I cried
for three days, and I feel like I’m total loser in my life, and oh my God, I failed. And as a
teenager, once you fail one exam, you feel like you are a total loser. But as a teacher right
now, it’s nothing. But at the time it was the end of the world. But now I realize that why.
Because my motivation was wrong. Yeah. I didn’t want to study right. I just want to
escape from the high school. And as a Christian, as a believer, that’s the best choice God
made for me. [laughs]
And I failed, and at that time, I have a really clear moment to think of what should I do
next. Now there’s no benefit as passing one year, and exactly same universities, they
have the same value. So I research about the school most seriously. And then I got to an
answer, good for me, because I’m good at math and science and I don’t have a good
financial status, although things I talk to—earlier, that was actually after the failing. I
have a process of that. And then selected the KAIST again, and then my teacher—
homeroom teacher told me, “Why the KAIST again? There’s no benefit for you, Soyeon.
Now you can go to the Seoul University because it’s the same because—” It’s a really
interesting dynamics, also, because in Korea, as a senior homeroom teacher, it is your
medal, how many of your school go to the Seoul National University, how many students
go to the medical school, and he really wanted me to get in that rank. But I keep going—
want to go into the KAIST. And he keep asking me, “Are you sure? Are you sure?” And
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then I—maybe I can try and then I can try both because it’s the same timeline and then
maybe I can make a decision at the end. So I really tried both. I take the SAT for the
Seoul National University. I take the [unintelligible 00:17:44] again for the KAIST. And
finally I should make a time to pick the date because interviewing date is the same.
So I got [unintelligible 00:17:56] through the first stage and second stage, and so the last
stage, so we have a final interview. But I think it is on purpose because a lot of students
like me, they got both, too, on their hands. But if their interview days are different, and
then they should make a choice at the end and the school has hectic moment to finding
the next candidate, so they on purpose make same day, make us to choice. And then
finally I choose the KAIST to go to the more serious engineering school. And my mom
and dad, at the time they didn’t feel like that, but after all the studying is done and then
they feel like so love to have that. And my dad always complain about the huge tax of his
salary, but he just kept—“Oh, my daughter get all the tax benefit from my tax I paid
before.” [laughs] And my brother also go to that place, and then some of my father’s
friends, they say, “You know what, Yi, you got all your tax back because your daughter
and son all goes to the government-subsidized school.” So yeah, that was a kind of
interesting selection. Yeah.
GN:
And when you reached KAIST, you studied mechanical engineering?
SY:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
GN:
And what made you select mechanical engineering in particular?
SY:
Yeah. When I applied to KAIST the first time, I choose industrial design, not mechanical
engineering, because I love drawings and artworks and all the DIY things, I love it. And I
believe I’m talented in drawing and designing. And I failed. And there’s one of my best
friends, still now, she also applied for an industrial design together with me, and we both
failed. So I was not alone. She was the kind of best of best friends of mine because even
we fail together. [laughs] And she applied industrial design again in a year, and in
those—in year, we training together, study together, and then I keep compare my skill
with her. And in the middle of the night and she just nodding and sleeping and wake up
and drink something. So cool. Her design was incredible.
But her sleeping—I drew it again and again and again. My drawing is a totally duddy. It’s
not good at all. So I realize that it’s not proportional to that [unintelligible 00:20:25]. You
should have a special skill for that. So, wow, to go to the art school, maybe I should have
a special skill. But I’m not that kind of person. Because whenever I compare with my
friends, my drawing is always taking triple, fourth time more but quality’s always worse.
And she just—[makes sound effect]. So cool. And then—I better not go there. It cannot
be my real job.
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And then I was total kind of chaotic. What should I do next? I lose all my goals. And so I
didn’t choose any major at all when I applied for the high school—uh, KAIST. And in
KAIST, there’s a really good policy that if you really want to go to the engineering
school, any engineering school, you don’t have to pick the major. And once you got an
admission, you take the basic course like calculus and physics and everything, and then
you can think of it and you pick the major later. I think that is incredible things for the
high school students because most of high school students doesn’t know what the major it
is. They just forced to pick it, and they cannot help to picking it without knowing it.
So I chose to be the group of the people who doesn’t know what to do. [laughs] Even if
my friends are going to the industrial designing department. A huge group. I was so
surprised. More than—our whole classmate was around 500 or 600 at the time. But more
than 300 was getting admission without picking the major. We studied together physics
and math and everything. And then finally we have a due date. We should pick until that
day. And I have no idea. So my action is I put the huge paper on my dorm room floor,
and I list out all the department names, and then I eliminate least favorite things. So
industrial designing, of course, I already missed the chance because—especially [art?]
school, you should’ve start from the first. So miss it. And computer science, oh my God,
I’m not good at computer at all. I’m still allergic with a computer, so eliminate. And what
else? Yeah, and physics, of course, is too serious. [laughs] Not cool at all. Mathematics. I
love math, but when I entered to the college, I realize that I love arithmetic, not the math.
Math is much more complicated, and I cannot understand higher level of the math. So
math’s eliminated. So all the basic science eliminated because it doesn’t look cool for me.
And eliminate, eliminate, and then sometimes two department and compete each other.
Okay, I better let you go, and then that one is better. So I just have some kind of
tournament on the paper with them.
And then finally I have a final three. So civil engineering, mechanical engineering, and
material science. Material science seems kind of general, more like than any other thing,
and material science seems like more basic. So whatever engineering career you take,
material science could help you to go there because whatever you want to build you
should have material. So seems kind of safe for me. And civil engineering, mechanical
engineering, why they survive until the end, because I love building something. I love
hardware. So they survive until. And I cannot pick either one. And I call my mom and,
“Mom, I have three finalists.” [laughter] But you know what? My mom even never go to
the high school. How can she help me? But she just have a feeling of the name. “So,
Mom, I have a material science and mechanical engineering and civil engineering.” But
when my mom heard about civil engineering, and she just thinking about construction
area. Because civil engineering is more like a construction site as a general public, even if
civil engineering itself is really sexy. So Mom said, “Soyeon, you are a girl. I don’t want
you to have a helmet and have a kind of construction boots and fighting something. It
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doesn’t look good for you. And then I know you’re a tomboy. You doesn’t look like girls
at all, but I don’t want you to be the really, really guy.” And she just eliminate civil
engineering. So, “Oh, thank you, Mom.” And I can say eliminate one.
And then finally I have material science and mechanical engineering. You know what, so
stupid a choice. How many friends more in there, I just think about it. It’s only one of my
friends because, as I told you, I failed first admission, so a lot of my high school
classmates, they are already in KAIST. And whole—my close friends already in KAIST.
I just go one year late—later. And I checked how many of my friends in there. [laughs]
And material science only one. Mechanical engineering, I have 10 of my friends in
mechanical—oh, that’s nice. Then they can help me.
And then even if I’m not that tall, even if I’m not that kind of athletics, but during my
high school I was in a basketball team. As a manager, not a player, because I’m not good
at play. But I love basketball and baseball. Cannot help it because I was a basketball
team. I love baseball, men’s. All of them are guys, and they all go to mechanical
engineering. It doesn’t have any problem at all. And then more than 90% of my friends,
because of science high school—and then I played Taekwondo, so 99% of my friends are
guys and males, and they love mechanical engineering more than the boring material
science. So that’s it. I just pick it. So it’s not logical at all. It’s not rational at all, but I just
go there. But thank God that was most my favorite. So after graduate I feel like, oh my
God, thank God. What if I was not the person who is good at mechanical engineering?
Because my choice was not logical. But once I get in and study, I realize that I love it.
And I really appreciate my dad, also, because my dad was not good at the financial,
taking care of the whole family, including me and my brother and sister and also my
grandma, my mom’s mother, lived together in a small, little house. So he should’ve take
care of everything. So we don’t have a plumber. We don’t have any money to hire
plumber, so my dad fix everything. And he fix all the boilers, all the electronics, and
because I’m the eldest, I always help him because my mom and grandma taking care of
the baby brother, kind of thing. At that time, I was trained as a mechanics, not mechanical
engineer. And he was almost mechanics. I bet if he were born again around 2000, not
1940 in Korea, he would be an engineer. But to take care of the family, being a caller in a
bank is the most stable job in Korea at the time. And he has several siblings, and his mom
and dad was not that good at all. His mom passed away early time. His dad was alcoholic.
So he was kind of like a person who take care of the whole family, cannot help to be a
caller in a bank. But thank God, his gene and DNA come through me. And we fix my
bicycle together, we fix our boiler together, and we helping each other to finding the
solution. And even at the time, I didn’t know that I love mechanical engineering, but after
graduate undergrad, I realize, wow, that’s the whole things come together and then
[unintelligible 00:27:59] each other, and it make me mechanical engineer. So that was
really incredible moment.
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00:28:03
[Postgraduate studies]
GN:
So then when you went on to start studying for your PhD, you shifted your focus.
SY:
Yeah, right.
GN:
And can you talk a little bit about that decision and—
SY:
Yeah. So, oh my God, you make me feel so interesting because my life is a—all my life
is kind of avoiding the hurdles. [laughs] Not the making something, but the avoiding the
hurdle. So I went to the mechanical engineering department. And I love mechanical
engineering, but I love building thing, making thing, but I don’t like the mathematic
simulation. I’m not good at imaginary number and then create a calculus equation. I
realize that, oh my God, I love hardware simulation, but I don’t like the software
simulation to calculate everything. And what should I do? Because I really want to go to
the graduate school. Fluid dynamics, all math, so eliminate. And solids dynamics and all
the material things, around the 1990s, they always do the simulation with the computer.
But as I already told you, I don’t like the computer. I don’t like the programming. So
eliminate.
And have several lab in KAIST to survive is one of them is a micro machine lab. And
then those micro machine lab, professor told me, like, you know, our students—because
technology is still developing, so we have a really good tool [to] simulate all the macro
stuff, but there’s no good tool and simulation tool for the micro stuff. So if you really
want to do micro machine, you always should make it first and all the things are more
like empirical rather than a simulation. That’s so fascinating to me. So, wow, then I don’t
have to—I don’t have to do the programming. I don’t have to do the math. I just want to
build right away. That’s really cool.
So I joined the micro machine lab and then go there. And at the time, we had kind of
inkjet printer and an acceleration sensor in all the models, so it was a huge boom around
the 2000. So one of the kind of popular lab in mechanical engineering because around the
2000, all the STEM’s going down and boring math and science, physics going down. But
micro machine looks really cool because Intel comes up at the time, IBM comes up, and
then all the micro machines—semiconductor looks really shiny and sexy. Even if I’m not
electrical engineering, but I could have been more closer to them. And then many of the
mechanical engineering students, also, they don’t want to look like an engine stuff. They
don’t want to be the kind of welding thing. So a lot of students doing the micro lab. It’s a
huge competing.
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So to pick the two master students—there’s 16 students applied. I was one of the only
girls. And we should have an interview and that kind of thing. Luckily, he picked me. So
he told me and warning me, like, “Soyeon, you know what? I’ve never had a female
student. So I feel a little afraid. But there is no reason to cut you out, so I really want to
try out with you.” And then I joined the lab and all guys and then no women at all. They
are not accustomed to working with women and kind of thing. But I’m okay and love it.
But at the end of my master’s, huge bio kind of trend is coming up. There’s a lot of
engineering that combine with the bio things. So prosthetic things and kind of artificial
legs and arms coming up and then AI comes up. And then my advisor said, “How about
micro machine to go to the biological stuff?” Because micro machines are really good at
kind of biology or medical diagnosis kind of thing. It looks cool. But I remember, I
eliminate biology very at the first stage. [laughs] Oh, I’m not good at biology. But that
was real interesting, also. It’s not logical at all, but he, as our advisor, is kind of leader of
the whole research group. He should have picked several students who go to the bio
sector. And a whole 20 of the PhD students, master’s students, and a little bit of the
undergrad students, we are working together. I’m the only woman. He believes, like,
maybe woman would be better at the biology. [laughs] It’s more like a girl thing. And he
asked me, “Why don’t you go in biology part? I really want to have students who do the
biology application from the micro machine.” And I remember I don’t like biology, but if
I used mechanics to do biology, it looks like of cool.
So he picked me, and then I said yes. And then I really loved the multidisciplinary rather
than a serious one. And from the PhD, I took all the basic undergrad course of biology as
a PhD student and stuff from the scratch again. Because I don’t want to kind of fight
against my advisor. It’s kind of avoiding hurdles. [laughs] So just take it. Okay. I can try.
And then you know what? That was a huge luck because huge microbio [unintelligible
00:33:16] and mechanics that coming up around the 2000s, so wherever I go to the
conference, everybody tried to listen to me. And then my papers and my research is
always kind of very first. So good to have a job. And I have a plan to come to the U.S. to
have a post-doc position. And that field is really fresh at the time, so, wow, that’s cool.
Even if my advisor push me over there, that looks really cool. So I love it. So right before
apply for an astronaut, my trip was all set to there. Yeah.
00:33:48
[Astronaut application and selection process]
GN:
And so what was the timing in terms of where you were in your PhD when the astronaut
announcement came down? How did you hear about it?
SY:
So my advisor recommended me go to the bio-medical track. And at the time, was the
end of my master and a start with my PhD. And then my advisor really want to join the
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newly developed department—bio system department in KAIST. It’s a quite new
department. So my advisor was the number one faculty in the new department. Huge
grant comes in, and I could change my major there even if I have—still having same
research. And around the third or fourth year of my PhD, I was total lost in my research
because my research doesn’t go further. So my experiment was failing, doesn’t have
good data at all. I really want to finish my PhD, but my experiment always going wrong.
And I was total depressed. And then even I just—[unintelligible-00:34:54], “Soyeon, can
you even graduate? Can you get a PhD? You better give up.” And then I even think of,
“Maybe you are not that smart enough to get a PhD.” And then compared with my
friends and lab mate, my research is always go bad. And then so tired.
And in the middle of that time, I do my PhD thesis—proposals and use up my grant and
that kind of thing and depressed. And then I write down the resignation of the school—
PhD program resignation and almost—I just think about give up. Because even if I got
PhD, I don’t think I deserve to have one because my research was not that good. And
thinking about what else kind of job I can go there if I just withdraw this program and
think about that.
But around that time, I read a newspaper articles: Korean government try to find first
Korean astronaut, maybe next year. And they cannot kind of secure the budget yet, but
they are struggling to find a budget to go there, blah, blah, blah. And, wow, that’s
interesting. I just ignore it. But those articles, it comes up again and again and again, and
I’m—every day I’m doing the experiment. But they said first Korean astronaut doing the
experiment in the space. And I’m tired of the experiment under the ground and in clean
room, and what if I can do this experiment in space with the zero gravity? That would be
really cool. It’s really impulsively to think about it. And then come out of the clean room
and told my friends, “Have you guys heard about the articles, the astronaut program?”
They said, “Yeah, I heard about that. But maybe they cannot make it because budget was
not secured.” And then government always play with the media and then nobody trust it.
And I also, “Yeah, maybe. But what if they will really start? I really love to apply.” And
then all my friends said, “Are you serious?” And, “Yeah. It would be really cool.”
And then I’m kind of person I’m easily distracted by anything. [laughs] Whatever looks
fun, whatever looks interesting, I always go there. So during my studying in the KAIST, I
was a vocalist in a rock band and member of the choir. Sometimes I cut my friend’s hair,
got the money. I was a wedding singer as a part time. Yeah, I literally do wedding singer
because they paid $100 per one sing for the [unintelligible 00:37:27] singer. And that’s a
huge money for me during my college. And sometimes I made accessorial—the hairpins
and sell it in open market. So astronaut program is kind of that. [laughs] So all my friends
would say, “Oh, you can try it. Whatever.” And they say it like that. And then once the
program more serious and serious, they finally said that in two months we will open the
application. And then my friends—some of my friends heard about my opinion. They just
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come to me, “Soyeon, they open really application. Are you serious to apply?” And then I
just said, “Why not? Just try out.” And then they gathering all the information for me
because they don’t want to apply, but they really want to watch how it goes. [laughs]
GN:
So you were the guinea pig?
SY:
Yeah, I am in the guinea pig. And then one of my friends, especially guy friends, has a
huge logic why I should apply. And in Korea, we have a military service, so any guy, you
cannot avoid it if you are healthy enough, if you are kind of older than 19 years old, then
you should pick the time where you should go in. Between the 20 and 30, at least you
should spend two years for the military stuff if you should pick the time. And many of
my male colleague, to avoid the military service, they joined the PhD program in KAIST.
Because government has a super special subsidized program for the guys who is really
good at the STEM, they can stay in the school as a military service. So they count their
military clock inside of the school. So it’s the best of the guys. They don’t have to do the
really boring shooting and then grueling kind of things. So more than 99% of the male
colleagues, they pick the KAIST PhD program to avoid a military service. Of course they
love STEM, but if they go out the university, they should go to military service first and
then go. But KAIST is really harder to get an admission, but it’s a huge benefit.
So they said that, “You know what? We cannot stop our PhD program because I don’t
want to go into the military service.” And some friends of mine, they already
[unintelligible 00:39:35] of 20. They have wives and kids. And some guys, they cannot
help—they cannot survive without a school program because they stick with the military
thing. And then they said, “We cannot quit PhD program. But you are a woman. You
don’t have any military program. You don’t have any kids to take care of. You don’t have
any wives to buy anything. So you are the only person who can try something else.”
[laughs]
And then one of my friends has a really good analogy, bring it to me. “Soyeon, you know
what? In Korea nowadays, it’s so Westernized. So nowadays, Korea is really kind of
interesting gender equity. So they would pick several women, not for the final, but for the
final 100 or something, because they want to show the general—we are equal to
everybody. But think about it. How many engineers could be the female?” And at the
time, I run every night for the marathon, five, six kilo every night. And in the morning, I
always went to the swimming pool, and I always tried to make my body healthy. I believe
that is the most important things to be the right engineer because without healthy you
cannot do anything. So they said, “You know what? Among the geeky, nerdy engineers
and scientists, who can be healthier than you? But astronauts should be healthy. So I
think you can survive at least until 300. So you would be the best candidate among us.”
And then, oh, that’s really convincing.
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So I applied, and all my friends so excited. And they even betting each other. Soyeon
made 300. Soyeon cannot make 300. They put the $10 on the board and fight against
each other. So that was so fun. And then during that time, my feeling is, if my friends, if
my peoples feel happy with this, it’s worth it to try. So I apply. And then literally when I
apply through the internet, all my friends behind me. [laughs] “Try it. Click this.” That
was so fun, yeah.
GN:
So you applied and then as the selection process progressed, did you have to—
SY:
A lot of things.
GN:
What did you have to do as part of the selection process?
SY:
So when I applied, I uploaded a resume and several essays and everything, and then from
those essay and resume, they filtered around 5,000. Because 36,000 people applied, but
some of them is not that serious. They just apply. And they checked the resume, they
check everything, and then they cut the—almost of the 30,000 people cut out. And then
around 5,000, 6,000, we started real race from that. And then medical check-up really
quick—like an annual medical check-up. So if you are diabetic or some serious liver
thing—problem or kind of thing, and then you will be eliminated, even—you don’t
[unintelligible 00:42:32] to try more. So they just eliminated. And also written exam.
English, common sense of science, and Korean history. So I just wonder why Korean
history, but they really knew that once first Korean astronaut was selected, they should be
the representative of the whole Korea, so should understand Korean culture and history
very well. That makes sense.
But that is my weakest point because I’m not good at history. I’m not good at literature
things. So when I go to the written exam place, all my friends, “Oh, you go there.” And
then my friends said, “If you are eliminated from this stage because of the Korean
history, because English—” My English was not that good at that time, but I believe my
English was better than average of Korean people, so it would not be that huge problem.
Science and math, of course, that is my job, so it doesn’t have any problem. But Korean
history is a huge problem of me. I still remember my SAT test in my high school, my
history point was much lower than the whole science high school—not science high
school—whole Korean high school’s average below. So mine was really bad. So my
friends was worried about that.
And then finally I survived from written exam, and all my friends said, “Soyeon, then
you can make 100 because Korean history was the biggest hurdle for you.” [laughs]
Yeah, so at the time I became a 300. And then from the 300, we have kind of physical
test, so running and kind of squat and sit-up. They have some lower bar to make it up that
once you pass, you just pass and kind of thing. And then in-person interview with a
committee. They just ask me why I want to be an astronaut and then they ask a lot of life
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example things and what is your biggest problem in your life, blah, blah, blah. So those
things.
So, yeah, finally I made 100, and from the 100 we do another test and interview and
making 30. And from the 30, we stayed in a hospital for whole week to check the—from
the head to toe. So they check all the MRI thing and several kind of bottle of the blood
they took out and then announces everything. And brain things and mental—psychology
consulting and some kind of breathing and then running on the treadmill, and then they
inject some kind of—I don’t know what it is, but they inject something, and then they try
us out to the run and then how far we can run, kind of thing. So a lot of tests.
And even around that time, I feel so happy because they cannot find any problem with
me. [laughs] And then some of newspaper articles said that, “You know what? To pick
the Korean astronaut, 30 of the finalists, they went to the hospital, they spend a whole
week to test, and then it cost around $10,000 medical check-up.” Wow. I get the $10,000
medical check-up for free. So, wow, it’s a huge deal. You know what, if it comes to the
U.S., it would be the $100,000 thing, because Korean is—basically medical cost is really
cheap. So $100,000 is huge—$10,000 is huge. So I call my mom. “Mom, Mom, Mom, I
test the medical things and it’s a $10,000 cost. How can I get this? And then they told me
I don’t have any problem.” And my mom said, “Oh, that’s good.” And that was a real
interesting thing, also.
And then some of the people, they have kind of separate consult with the doctor and then
they said, “You know what, you have this disease. It’s not the problem at all for your
[unintelligible 00:46:24] life, but that could be the problem if you fly in space.” So some
people eliminated with that. And then some people, even they just called and then go
there, they said, “You know what, it’s not a problem if not only live a normal live but
also even fly to space, but you have this defect on your heart or this defect on your
stomach.” So we have five people stay together in same room. And then every night they
called. They are called and then talk to the doctor—a specialist kind of thing. So nobody
called me. So I just wonder why nobody called me. Nobody interested in me at all?
Maybe I will be eliminated.
So almost end of the medical check-up, I knocked the door of our chief surgeon. And he
just surprised. “Why you knock the door?” “I really want to meet you.” And he said,
“Why?” “Because everybody was called at least one time or two time, but nobody called
me.” So he said, “What’s your name?” “And my name is this.” And he checked
everything. “You know what? I have never seen this kind of person before, but you don’t
have any defect at all in your body.” And, “Really?” And he said, “That’s because we’ve
never called you.” Wow. So even if I will not be an astronaut, that’s a huge outcome of
the astronaut selection.
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And then in same time—[laughs]. It’s really embarrassing. In Korea, we have a
stereotype of the woman. So kind of dream woman to date or dream woman to be wife.
And it’s kind of—most of the guys has the same dream woman. It’s a thin, pale, white
skin, and little bit weak, doesn’t have any muscle at all, and emotional. But once I prove
that I don’t have any defect, I have enough muscle, so I’m not a kind of dream woman at
all. And so I called my friends, “You know what? I knocked the door to the chief
surgeon. He told me I don’t have any defect at all.” And he said that, “So you prove you
are not the dream woman anymore.’” Yeah. Unfortunately. But I cannot tell anybody.
This my secret. [laughs] So, yeah.
So during the selection process, I don’t care if I will be a final or not. Every single step I
find my own meaning. I find my own happiness. So that was really incredible process
I’ve ever take.
GN:
And was this all handled within the Korean government?
SY:
Yeah.
GN:
Or were there representatives from NASA or Roscosmos?
SY:
In Korean government. But they basically researched about NASA astronaut selection
process and Russian astronaut selection process. And then we had a several kind of board
member and committee from the Russia because Korean government already made a
contract with the Russian government to send the astronaut through the Russian program.
And then they start the selection process. So as I remember, several times Russian kind of
representative delegation came and checked it out, and they reviewed the selection
process, and then we asked them kind of advice for them. But around that time, I was not
in the loop. I was the candidate. So I couldn’t see inside at all.
00:49:28
[Selected as a finalist and balancing astronaut training and PhD work]
GN:
Got you. And so ultimately you were selected as one of two finalists, correct?
SY:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
GN:
And so what came next for you?
SY:
They said we would employed by the KARI—Korean space agency kind of thing—
because they can dispatch their employee to the Roscosmos Russian space agency. So
even my PhD was not over yet, I should get a job. And that was a huge hurdle also
because I cannot be sure, how can I handle my PhD program? Because it is never
happened before, not only in KAIST but also KARI. They’ve never employed kind of
active students before. Always they kind of recruiting the graduate or graduate to-be. And
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KAIST also, they’ve never making the active students who’ve never had any PhD
finishing plan at all, doesn’t have any plan to have my thesis defense. So it’s huge kind of
chaotic.
And then not only KARI, but also KAIST, they—“We don’t know. Let us think. Let us
think about it.” And my worst case scenario is I should give up either one. So that was
really hard. And finally, we find a way as maintaining my student status in KAIST, I can
be employed by the KARI. So finally I made it. But KARI wanted me to spend whole
24/7 to be an astronaut rather than spending time to be a student. And huge debating over
that. And I went to the—my advisor and then told him, “I think I cannot keep studying
and research, so how about I can have leave of absence or hold my PhD program? And I
should go to the Russia, and in a year come back, I can keep continuing that.” Because
school you can hold it. Yeah. If you don’t pay the tuition, if you hold it, then you can just
extend. So I’m thinking about that. And then my advisor said that, “You know what? You
are researching kind of high-tech. It’s really time-sensitive thing. If you delay one year, if
other people publish exactly same thing, and then you cannot defend your PhD. You
cannot publish your journal at all. So you should keep in mind. So when you hold, it’s not
exactly hold. Maybe you should give up even if you don’t want to do that.”
Oh, okay. Then what should I do? And then everybody watching me as an astronaut
candidate. And my mom even told me, “Soyeon, if you feel so scared to go to the Russia,
you should just give up and don’t have to feel pressured by the other people.” Because
huge peer pressure around me. But you know what? I don’t have any scared feeling to go
to the Russia to go to the space, but I feel kind of afraid to give up either one. That’s the
huge deal. And, “Mom, don’t worry about it. I don’t feel scared at all with any
spaceflight or going to the Russia, but my huge kind of problems are PhD.” And then my
advisor said that, “Soyeon, there’s nothing impossible. You can do it together.” “Are you
sure?” And he said, “Yeah. If you really want to do it, you can do it together. So bring
your old thesis, all the data and everything, because you already finish all your
experiment. So data analysis, any additional tests, we can help with here. And whenever
you call us and then we can do it for you and then you have a lot of your lab mates who
willing to help you. So you keep doing that.” So, “Okay, I will try.” So I bring all my
PhD materials to go to the Russia. And during the daytime I’d take the training. At
nighttime, I’d just writing my thesis and then data analysis. So I have two job in Russia.
It was really hard.
GN:
So as someone who spent your education trying to avoid hurdles, all of a sudden you’re
doing a PhD and training to be an astronaut?
SY:
Yeah, yeah, right. So—yeah. So still, some people—a lot of the people ask me, “How can
you do it together? Because most of the people, take only one is really hard for them for
24/7, but you just do the huge things together.” And I can tell them, “I could do that only
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because I didn’t know how hard it is. If I know how hard it is, maybe I even cannot try
it.” But I can’t help it. I just try it, and finally I made it. So you know what, I finally
became a backup crew at the very first time. So my thought is [unintelligible 00:54:05]
there because I spend some of my time to finish my PhD. I didn’t devote myself to—
wholly to the astronaut. Maybe my colleague would think about only astronaut things
because he just resigned from the Samsung and he just employed by the KARI only, so
he doesn’t have to do anything except astronaut training. But I have huge other things
behind me. So I thought, well, that’s fair.
But in same time, thinking about the selection process, my advisor doesn’t like me to
apply for an astronaut. He think it’s a huge distraction. And I also thought so because I
grew up in Korea. All the Korean people think you should focus on only one thing. You
better not distracted. But during the selection process, I realized that what is the real
regiment, what is the real synergy? Because once I apply for an astronaut and I survive
5,000—I told you I was so depressed because my research was going wrong, and I keep
telling myself, “Soyeon, you are a loser. Soyeon, you are most stupid people in the world
because you cannot go through this. You cannot solve this problem.” So I keep making
myself negative. But I apply for an astronaut. I survive. I realize, oh my God, you can do
it. You survive 5,000, and you survive 300. And then I have my positive energy back.
And then those positive energy make my research better. If you go to the lab, “Oh, today
maybe I would fail again,” then you never, ever succeed. But once I survive 300 and all
my friends, “Oh my gosh, Soyeon, you’re 300,” and then come to the lab and start my
experiment, I was a huge cheered and positive. My experiment’s going really, really well.
So before astronaut program I spend almost 18 hours in lab, but depressed. But after
selection process, I spend only three, five hours in the lab, but fully positive. That has
much better results than the other one.
And then all the astronaut selection process was going during the weekend because most
of the astronaut candidate and applicant, they have their own full time job, so they only
came make a time during the weekend. Only in the PhD program, end of the Friday, I
just, “Oh, I can do it tomorrow, Saturday.” So I just give up. But once I’m in the
astronaut program, I can’t have time on Saturday because I should go to selection
process. “Soyeon, you should finish it tonight.” And then it became much better than
before. So in same time, in astronaut training in Russia, during the daytime, I was so
excited to learn something new and I’m so excited to be the first Korean astronaut would
be or could be. And everything’s just so exciting. And fully positive energy, come back
home, I know I should finish this tonight and then do it. So those two jobs are synergy
each other and make myself more positive. That’s the only kind of reason I can make it.
Yeah.
GN:
And so what was the training process like once you began training? You went to Russia.
Were you in Star City?
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SY:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So it was the whole-year program and kind of first half is the
most like the classroom thing, so I should learn all the systems and safety and mechanism
and theory. And half of classroom time is learning the Russian language because we
should be the official Russian crew. So Russian language is a huge thing to be a Russian
astronaut. So half-day is Russian language, half-day is technical stuff. And after those six
months, we speak Russian good enough and then we start simulating thing. So inside of
the simulator, we do all of the simulating things again and again and again until—even if
you memorize it, you always should hold the manual to double-check and triple-check.
So yeah, that is the whole-year thing. Yeah. And then during the summer, we should have
a sea survival. During the winter, we should have a mountain survival. And those are
things always inside of the—your schedule. So it’s quite mixed.
00:58:21
[Selected as backup crewmember, training in Russia, and PhD dissertation]
GN:
And you were originally selected as the backup crewperson?
SY:
Yeah. After six months, Korean government said that we will pick the backup and
primary. And after six months they picked me as a backup and then pick him as a
primary. And I love it because even if I became a backup, they said I should stay until the
launch day because we don’t know what happen. So that is the biggest part because when
I was in the selection process, whenever you’re eliminated, you should go back. But in
the primary and backup, even if you are backup, you keep doing the training.
And then when I went to the Russia, I just already knew that I would be a backup. In the
male-dominant society, Korea, they would not pick the woman. And regardless of being
primary or a backup—I think flight is only 11 days, but training is a whole year. So this
part is kind of more fun and exciting. So if I can take this, 11 days, maybe he can take it.
And almost end of the training, I realized that once you became a primary, all Korean
people recognize you and a huge burden and everybody watching you. So I realized, oh
my God, that’s so stressful. And whatever small mistake you make, everybody talk about
it, right? But as a backup, nobody knows me and nobody cares about me, so I can do
whatever I want. So one day one of the journalists asked me, “Soyeon, how do you feel to
be a backup? Because you cannot fly. You know that.” And I said, “You know what? If
the primary can get a fame, I can get a freedom.” [laughs] He cannot get a freedom at all
at the time. So, yeah, I like that.
GN:
And were you in Russia the whole time, for that whole year?
SY:
The whole time.
GN:
So you didn’t—
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SY:
Only two weeks’ vacation.
GN:
Okay, okay.
SY:
Because I’m an employee, so we should have a paid vacation. So in the middle of the
training, we had a two-week vacation and then coming back home. But even two-week
vacation, but from the training in Russia, but one week is not really vacation because all
the experiment was designed by the Korean scientist. So those one week was that they
trained us how to handle experiment in space. So we have off from the Russia two weeks,
but one week is a training with the Korean scientist. And another one week was the real
vacation, but during that time I have a PhD thesis final defense, so those—the whole
week, I cannot sleep at all because I should make slide decks and meeting the committee
and presentation kind of training and practicing and—yeah. It was not vacation for me.
GN:
But did you successfully defend your PhD in the middle—
SY:
Yeah, yeah. That was real interesting. One of my committee was in U.S., and my advisor
was on sabbatical break in Vietnam, and then other three professor was in KAIST. So
even if I made Korea for two weeks, I cannot be sure if the whole committee come in the
same place to have my PhD thesis. Because most of time PhD students follow the
professor’s schedule. But in that time, I only have a two-weeks window and then only
one-weeks window.
But luckily, the professor who was in U.S., he had his own vacation to visit his family in
Korea. He could take that week, even if I didn’t mean to. And my advisor had some
medical problems and come back to Korea to go to the hospital. And then other
committee, so we picked the only one day, only two-hour slot, everybody come in and we
made it. And then finally my advisor has not that good shape, so he should stay in the
hospital, so he has it televised with my presentation. And then he signed on the hospital.
It was real interesting. So all my friends said that, “Oh my gosh, Soyeon, your life is
almost like a sitcom thing.” [laughs] “Even if we try to make on purpose like that, it
doesn’t happen. But your life is really sitcom.” But it was more funnier thing is one of
my friends keep telling me, “Soyeon, your life is almost like a sitcom. It’s so funny.” But
once I became a primary, and he come, “Soyeon, I think your life is a sitcom. Finally it
became a documentary.” [laughs] So it was so funny. Yeah.
01:02:45
[Transition to primary crew]
GN:
So what happened with the transition from backup to primary?
SY:
There’s some kind of cultural misunderstanding thing also, because until that time,
Russian space program is under the military program. So all the training, all the processes
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are really serious under the military culture. And thank God I had experience with
working with a foreign country when I was in PhD program, because my whole PhD
program was the collaboration with us with UC Berkeley. So we have kind of sensitive
patent issue always between two school and always between two country have a huge
patent issue between, too. So whenever we have a collaborative research together, we
should figure out which kind of IP should kind of belong to the KAIST in Korea, which
IP belong to the Berkeley in America. So we have a lot of the security issues. We
sometimes should meet the intelligent agency in between, too. So I had a little bit of the
experience of the diplomatic security issue going through that as a researcher.
And when we went to the Russia to have a training, you know, our space program—
space technology is really, really sensitive security issue between the country. So if you
go to the NASA as a researcher, even if just duct tape on the bottom, but by the contract
you better not touch that duct tape kind of thing. It’s really stupid, official process. In
Russia, also. And we know which is the casual, which is not that sensitive, which is really
sensitive, so we always just override the security contract. Sometimes it’s really stupid.
But at certain point, if the general—kind of huge general related or military policies
related, we at least pretend to follow the protocol, even if it’s stupid. As a military guy
who living in that place, you know easily you could [unintelligible 01:04:49] that, but as
a foreigner, sometimes we couldn’t sense that and then we could make a huge mistake.
So my colleague, he couldn’t sense that. And then sometimes he’d take the material, get
out of the simulator. It’s not sensitive at all, but some military police come to our—is
classified as confidential information. How can you bring this out of the simulator? But if
you read it, it’s so stupid. It’s already on the Wikipedia. But as a protocol. So he made
those kind of mistake. And then my case is always, “Oh, sorry. I didn’t know that,” and
then put it back. Because I was already minority there. No women, no Asians, small,
little. So I always should be careful not to make other people upset. Because they don’t
have universal standard. Sometimes they are more cruel to the women. They are more
generous to the muscly guy. So I already had those experience from the mechanical
engineering department, so I always try to be careful. But my colleague, he’s the Seoul
National University alumni working in the Samsung. So he was more like a major—not a
minor, really. Major, really, he always. So he accustomed to act like that. So even
Russian military, he just act like he’s not the minority and then that makes Russian
military feel a little uncomfortable. Oh, small, little Korean is—you really think you are
military—Russia military? You not.
And then some kind of conflict happened, and some Russians feels a little more
uncomfortable with that. And they suggest to Korean government, “It’s okay. We know
that it’s not as sensitive, but what if when he was in space he didn’t listen to us? What if
he’s too brave during the space? Then it would have a huge problem. And then he doesn’t
have experience in space. He’s a kind of rookie. Then those rookie doesn’t know which is
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really important, which is not, and those little, small mistake make a huge consequence,
then Korean government, can you be liable for all those things?” And Korean
government feel a little afraid.
And Russian government—Russian kind of colleague of mine realize that I’m kind of too
careful. But that is from my gut because I was forever minority. When I was a kid, we are
living in a poor bracket area. So I’m always should be careful not to cross the border
between the higher class of peoples. And science high school, woman minority.
Mechanical engineering department, of course. And when I was in PhD program,
whenever we have a collaboration with a company or a government, I really knew that
some guys treat me almost nothing, only because I’m a woman. And whenever I pick the
phone, say hello, they just said, “I would love to talk with the researcher who in charge of
this research.” And then I said, “Yeah, I’m that person. I’m Soyeon.” And they said, “Oh,
you are the person? I would love to talk to the male researcher.” And then, “Okay,”
transfer. So all those are things I already have, so I should be super careful.
So they just kind of think of me like always follow their rules and kind of lower attitude.
And, of course, I did my best, and then some of the Russian colleagues, they realize that
even under those kind of discrimination, I just do my best to break it out and make it
happen. And then even in the middle of the simulation training, some instructor told me,
like, “Soyeon, you don’t have to learn this. Even if they—” He literally told me, “Even if
you will fly, some male colleagues help you to do that. So you don’t have to learn to do
it.” And then I told him, “You know what? I’m not here as a woman. I’m here as an
astronaut. I really want to try this. If you don’t want me to try, of course, I can step back,
but I really want to try. So don’t worry about me.” And he just said, “Ah, because it’s
dangerous, because it’s—require force.” No, just a lever. It’s not force at all. But he told
me, “You need force.” I don’t think so.
So all those things happen, and then some 30 person observing me, some other peoples
observing me, and then they realize that I’m kind of good at mitigate those kind of
conflict. So those two voice come together, and then they recommend me more than him.
And then first time Korean government said, “No, because we want to make him fly.”
But after two, three times of suggesting from the Russian side and then Korean
government said, “Maybe we would accept your suggestion,” and then finally change it.
So it’s not a big, huge scandal. It’s more like a cultural misunderstanding. And I feel so
thankful because, when I get through all those discrimination and minority issue in Korea
and as a woman, I really hate it, but when I got through those older things in Russian, oh
my God, that is the wonderful opportunity to learn how to mitigate, how to handle that.
So yeah, in life, no matter how bad of things happen, it always give you a chance to learn.
So yeah. And I don’t know what happened in the deep side because I’m also training and
then I’m not the person who made a decision. But as far as I know, it was starting from
the cultural misunderstanding.
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GN:
And just do a quick time check. Do you need a break at all or…?
SY:
Just a sip water. That’s good.
GN:
Okay. We’re still good. We’re still good. And are you okay to go past 7:00 if necessary
or—because we’re at 6:30 now.
SY:
Oh, yeah, yeah. I’m good. Yeah, until 7:00 I think I’m good. Yeah.
GN:
Okay. So you have now been moved to the prime crew. How long before the mission was
supposed to fly was this?
SY:
Two—kind of—a little bit less than a month.
GN:
Oh, wow.
SY:
Yeah, it’s really close. Because three weeks before, we should fly to the Kazakhstan. So
right after changing, I should fly to the Kazakhstan. So a little bit less than a month.
Yeah.
GN:
And were you training with both the crew that you launched with as well as the crew that
you would land with when you were training?
SY:
Yeah, but most of time with crew with I launch with. Because landing, they already in
space during my training. Because they stayed for six month. Yeah.
GN:
And once you were promoted to the prime crew, did you—it was very soon before
launch. Did you immediately get additional pressure from the Korean press?
SY:
Yeah, hm-hmm [affirmative]. Because changing itself is a huge scandal. And even—not
only Korean media, but also international media. They are so interested in why change it.
And then all the global society knew that Korea is a male-dominant society. How can
they make a woman fly at the very first time in history? So even more interest coming in
and then more exposing coming in. So that’s kind of tricky for me. Yeah.
GN:
And so what—the Korean government booked the flight similar to how Space
Adventures would book a flight with the Russians for spaceflight participants.
SY:
Yeah, so that is interesting. It is the kind of transition time to get the Space Adventure in
Russia. So Russia originally first. They have a government-to-government contract to fly
the—any country’s first astronaut. But they realize it’s a huge diplomatic problem. So
they try out Space Adventure thing. So my flight was almost right before the transitioning
from the Russian government contract to the Space Adventure contract. Yeah. So it is
quite similar, but a little different because government-to-government contracts are
governmental, diplomatic, huge issue, but Space Adventure thing is a commercial. So it
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doesn’t matter citizenship it is. It doesn’t matter all the things. And is kind of just
business contract. So little bit of different.
GN:
Got you. And did you—what was the—you’ve spoken a little bit about the sort of gender
issues, but in terms of other dynamics with the crew that you were working with, did they
see you as a fellow member of the crew or were you seen as a passenger? What was
the—
SY:
Yeah, that is a quite interesting dynamic. Especially the crew who had training with me,
they just treat me exactly same as other astronaut trainee and other astronaut candidate.
But among the instructor or government officials, they would might have a different point
of view and—but at least the person who had training together and getting through the
hard time together and then they treat me exactly like that. And also, even NASA. And
then NASA officially, they just treat the—all the astronaut like me because we didn’t go
through NASA and we were not American—Russian citizen, so they just called us a
flight participant. But American astronaut who had to train with me, they introduced me
to any other people, “She’s the first Korean astronaut. She’s the kind of cosmonaut from
Korea.” So there is a different kind of point of view.
GN:
And did you do any training in the United States?
SY:
Yeah, for a week. Because space station, some part belong to American side. I should
have at least bare-minimum safety issue about that. So I should come to the Houston as a
Russian crew and then take a safety training inside of the International Space Station
mock-up.
GN:
And who were your crewmates for the launch?
SY:
Sergey Volkov and Oleg Kononenko. And yeah, we didn’t have a training during the
training time because once you passed the sixth month or seventh month, you’re training
with your own crew. So primary crew training with the primary crew. I was a backup, so
I training with my backup crew. They will fly six months later. So I couldn’t have enough
time to kind of interact with them. So that was the biggest hurdle for me when I changed
to primary crew. But luckily, they are really nice guy, and then they are really openminded, and they accept me as one of the crew right after changing. And then luckily I
was a good friend of the [unintelligible 01:15:40]’s wife and then their kids loved me. So
those kind of things helped me to be more closer even before being a primary crew. So
that was really wonderful.
01:15:49
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[Launch day]
GN:
Got you. So talk a little bit about launch day. You had some interesting experiences on
launch day with the—
SY:
Yeah, right. So first of all, I couldn’t feel any difference. Because it is launch day, but
physical things happening is nothing different. So wake up as usual and the doctor check
me as usual, but everybody just take care of me as almost like a king because we are
ready for launch. And taking a ride and right up to arriving the launch site. Valentina
Tereshkova surprisingly comes up. She just coming in as a surprising, and then she held
my arms and taking me to the launch pad. And it—that was really incredible moment.
And on the way to the launch pad, I really want to follow the Yuri Gagarin’s tradition,
pee on the tire thing, but because I’m a woman I cannot pee on the tire in public. [laughs]
So I just prepare for a little small water bottle, and then at least I want to pretend to pee
on the tire. But nobody want me to do that because it is a diplomatic problems. So you
know what, once you checked all the spacesuit and then all the security check, all the
safety checks, and you are ready to fly, so officially you shouldn’t take out of the bus.
You should get to the launch pad right away. But only because Yuri Gagarin did,
unofficially, secretly—everybody know that secret, that secretly buses stop in the middle
of the Kazakhstan plain and then astronauts getting out of the bus, they opened all the
zipper and then pee on the tire, close. Means you should check the safety again because
open and close. So you better not. And then officially they should not but cannot help it
because Gagarin did. But they okay with Russian astronaut because liability on the
Russian side. But Korean astronaut is a different issue because if I have a problem, all the
Russian program should take the liability of my thing, also.
So one Russian general told me, “I know you really want to do that, but because you’re a
Korean and we have a huge diplomatic problem—what if you fell down and what if some
dust coming in your suit and then there is a huge problem? So we cannot let you get out.”
And then I was almost fighting over that. “I really go out,” and “I know a way,” and—but
I don’t want to make a huge diplomatic problem because what if I punch the Russian
military as a Korean citizen? So we just smile at each other and I understand, but I feel
upset. And then because he told me, “Because you are a woman, you cannot get out of
that,” and that—it is sort of uncomfortable, but I knew that—he’s almost like my father
because he’s a former astronaut. And he treat me like a little girl, so—not because I’m a
woman woman thing, but because he treat me almost like his little baby. So I try to
accept it and then cannot get out of the bus.
But once I arrived at launch pad, there was Tereshkova and then I forgot all those bad
memory and excited with Tereshkova. And then she take me to the launch pad and then
she act exactly like my grandma and then she just, “Soyeon, everything will be good,”
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and then, “Don’t worry about it.” And I didn’t worry about anything. But she was so
worried about me because I am almost age of her granddaughter. So all the moms are
same. Now I can understand. Most of the moms and grandma, they are okay to handle the
tough things by themselves, but they don’t want their kids to take care of that. So even if
moms cut her own hands during the cooking, it’s okay. But if their kids has a plastic
knife and it just scratch it, they feel so upset with that. So, “Careful. Don’t do that.” So at
that time, Tereshkova also exactly act like that. She flew when she was 26 years old, even
younger than me. And at that time, her flight is more dangerous because it is early stage.
My flight was so safe because mostly reliable space shuttle and space vehicle in the
world. But she just feel so afraid to letting me inside of the capsule. So I feel huge heart
of her. So that was an incredible moment.
And then getting inside of the launch pad and then inside of the service vehicle and all
the peoples coming in and help us to strap in and then checking all the safety things.
[unintelligible 01:20:27] go really well. Everythings go really well. But as I told you, we
should suit check again and again and again. So maybe at least two or three times,
double-check before launch after getting inside of the Soyuz. And then first check was
going really well, but at some point my commander’s suit was bust up because his zipper
was not secured well and it—when oxygen pressure was to go up and then zipper cannot
hold it and then bust up, and then he cannot move his arms at all because suit is kind of
bust up. So Russian spacesuit is kind of like a huge pocket like this. [demonstrates] And
then you hold it and then twice and then getting in and then zipper comes like that
because you should get in the spacesuit. And we were so afraid because if the spacesuit
failed, we cannot fly at all.
So my and Oleg’s suit was totally okay, but Sergey’s suit is a burst. And then we kind of
report to the mission control, and then they said that we cannot be sure if we can fly or
not. Definitely we cannot fly because he—his suit is like that. [demonstrates] And then
turn up the radio and then they said they will discuss about that. And then we tried to do
something by ourselves because once we get out of the capsule, we don’t know when we
can fly again. So we find emergency toolkit and then find a thread and rope, and then we
kind of roped around Sergey to knot the bust-up and then tied it. And then we checked
the pressure test ourselves two times and three times. Does it any leaking? Does it any
pressure thing and then does any suit bust up? And then we realized that he’s free to
move because rope is hold it.
And then once the mission control coming in and then, “How about you guys try to suit
check again if it is a bust-up or not?” And then we said that it’s not bust-up. And, “Why?
Because zipper is a fail.” “Because we tied him.” [laughter] And then, “Okay, then does
it—did you guys check the oxygen leakage or any pressure leak?” And then we said, “We
triple times checked and then oxygen leaks at all and then doesn’t have any pressure leak
at all.” And they said, “You guys already did inside?” “Yeah, yeah, because we really
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want to go.” And then we tried, and they said, “Then you guys should pressure-check
again in front of us.” Because there’s a camera and that kind of thing. And then we
showed them his suit is good enough to fly up. And they said we should check it out
again and we should talk with head of the Roscosmos and all the technical guys, because
even if we are okay but they don’t think that it’s okay, then we cannot fly. So they just
talk, talk, talk. It takes 20, 30 minutes. It feels like forever because we really want to fly.
And they said, “Okay, it’s good to go. But when Sergey coming down, you should get the
new suit, so we will send a new suit for you through the progress capsule.” And then
thank God, we all can fly.
So that was really incredible moment because Oleg, he was supposed to fly 10 years ago
by Shuttle. He had a training in Houston. But around that time, Columbia or something
happened, and then NASA announced that no foreigners fly through the Shuttle anymore.
And so Oleg should come back to Russia, he should training with Soyuz all the way from
the first, so he should wait another 10 years to assign for the flight. And Sergey, he’s
supposed to fly around six or seven years ago, also. And he was a third crew member or
something like that and he was in line, but around that time Perestroika happened, so all
the budgets and all the Russia collapsed. So they should cut all the budget. So during that
time, instead of the three, only two astronaut go up to the Mir because two enough to
maintain the Mir. So he was cut. And he should training from the ISS all the way first. I
was a backup, so supposed not to fly, finally became a primary. So three of us has a story.
But his suit was bust-up.
So we said, “Maybe we are not the person who fly. Maybe we are meant to be not to fly.”
And then—but we cannot take it as a fate. So we just rope him well and then make it
happen. So finally we fly. And then when we had the launch, we have a huge shaking and
then G, but we were so excited. Yeah, we fly! And around those time, Russian space
program never, ever fly all three a rookie. They always have one person who fly before
and two others are rookie or two peoples who flew before and one person’s a rookie. But
Oleg has a history with training, Sergey has a history with training, so we were in recent
five years or recent 10 years of first the three all rookie fly, actually.
GN:
Oh, wow.
SY:
So all three of us doesn’t know what happen. [laughs] And then all three of us,
everything’s new to us and, “Wow, it’s floating! We are flying!” So yeah, we all three
became a really close friends each other because we all have a same kind of hard time. So
yeah, we still keep in touch each other. And then it’s really wonderful moment.
01:25:48
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[Arriving at the International Space Station]
GN:
Great, great. And so how long did it take from launch to catch-up with ISS at that time?
SY:
Until getting to the orbit, it only takes 10 minute. So you get to the orbit.
GN:
Right.
SY:
Yeah. And then having around 20 orbit or something, and then we have a lander view.
And then two or three orbit, and then finally we just touch each other and then catch-up.
So it takes almost two days to touch the ISS from the launch.
GN:
Got you. And once you docked with ISS and you open the hatch, what was your first
impression of the space station going in?
SY:
You know what, we are so tired of the waiting. So I can tell you, whenever you take an
airplane to go to the China or New York, it takes almost 10 hours. So you wait 10 hours,
really kind of good kid. But right after landing and then taxiing to the gate and the right
before then gate, flight attendant said that everybody should sit down, don’t stand up, and
be careful until the airplane is really getting to the gate. But you cannot wait. Oh my God,
I should get up. I should get out of the airplane. Even if you waited 10 hours. We are
same. We waited two days and finally docked. And mechanically we are combined, but
there is a pressure difference between the ISS and Soyuz, so we should have pressure
balance at each other. It takes 30, 40 minute. We cannot wait this. Because we see the
bars going in like downloading. The bars going in and testing going on and then pressure
going on, and oh my God, we want to get inside ISS. So doesn’t have any feeling—
“Yeah, ISS!” [laughs]
And other three crew members waiting for us, they holding the camera. And I already
heard it from mission control, “Soyeon, whole Korean nation watching you.” That TV is
a televised live TV show to the Korea, so I should wave to the Korean public, to the
camera. So I should keep in mind what else the kind of TV things happen, media things
happen, and as a representative of Korea, I should talk to the Russian TV and Korean TV.
So all those things right after coming up. So I don’t have any time to be emotional. My
job was started right away.
GN:
But you’re being asked to smile and wave at the end of a two—you know, the equivalent
of a two-day flight.
SY:
Yeah, yeah, right. You should smile and then—especially this camera and wave. Because
we are all so tired. Motion sickness and two days inside of a capsule, so my hair is a
crazy messy. And then I throw up every 10 minutes, and then all my vomit plastic bag is
on my side pocket. So there’s no reason to smile at all, but I just smile. [waves] “I’m so
happy to be here!”
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01:28:50
[ISS experiments and experiences]
GN:
And so once you’re on station, what responsibilities did you have while you were—
SY:
First of all, I should have 18 different kinds of experiment, and then 14 is from the
professional researcher and then four—five is from the science textbook from Korea. So
that is the main mission for me. So every day, I have more than eight hours to take care
of the space experiment. And by the side is some Korean culture activity and TV
interview, radio interview and some kind of regular crew activity, cleaning and arranging,
finding the cargo thing. So 11 days was crazy busy, actually.
GN:
And what disciplines were the experiments in? Were they—
SY:
Every single. Because it’s the first Korea experiment, so we should fill for the whole
field. So one biology, one chemistry, physics, electric engineering, civils and
astrophysics. And all different disciplines are coming in, and then we should pick fairly
to every single thing. So I should be the multi-player. I should be the kind of multidisciplinary. But thank God my background itself is a mechanical, biology, material
science, and electrical engineering to make my PhD. So that background, even if I didn’t
mean to, but it helps a lot because I have a little bit of the electrical engineering to make
my machines happen and a little bit of the biology because my PhD was the biomedical
micro machine. And, of course, material science because I should have a material to have
my own [unintelligible 01:30:27] micro machine. And so all of this little bit of I learned
before, so it’s easy to communicate with person who designed experiment.
GN:
And in addition to Sergey and Oleg, who were your crewmates while you were on the
station?
SY:
Oh, Yuri Malenchenko. He was already up there for six months before me. And Peggy
Whitson. She was—she went to Yuri Malenchenko together. So Yuri and Peggy was
already six months over there. And Garrett Reisman. He was up there by the Shuttle
because, until that time, Shuttle was not retired yet. So Garrett was around there a month
or more. So we were six of us.
GN:
Okay. And what was your favorite thing about being on station? What did you enjoy the
most?
SY:
Well, most of time is—of course, all astronauts the same—looking down to the Earth.
Especially around Southeast Asia, I could see the typhoon forming and some thunder
coming up from the cloud to the space because it’s around April and so springtime. And
Korean Peninsula, of course, is really small and short, but I love to look down to my own
country. And during the nighttime, look up to the night sky. It’s beautiful because we
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don’t have any diffraction at all, so all the—every single star has a different color. It’s not
the yellowish thing. And so I realized then my science teacher was not lie to me, because
when I was in middle school, my science teacher said that, depending on the temperature,
high-temperature stars are bluish, low-temperatures are reddish. But I’ve never seen the
red star, blue star at all. But in space, because we don’t have any atmospheres, I could see
the original color of the star without a telescope. So whole night sky was the really color.
So if you watch the black-and-white TV on here, and then astronaut in the space station,
we could see the full-color, HDTV in the night sky. So that was really wonderful.
GN:
And what did you find most challenging about being in space? What was the most
difficult?
SY:
First of all, all the Korean space experiment is the first time. And then the person who
designed, they’ve never flew—fly their machine before. So some of the machines are
working really well, but some of the machines is unexpectedly working not good, and
then I should impulsively fix it and change the protocol, change the manual. So that is
really challenging for me because the person who designed—the person who operate it,
they are not here. I cannot have a right-on-time communication at all, so I should use my
own knowledge, my own intuition to working it. But what if they didn’t like it? What if
it’s not the way they really love to try it? So I should keep debating in my brain. Is it
okay doing that way? Is it okay that way? Because it’s not working in that way. Or
sometimes it’s some power outage sometimes—without any reason. And then some
experiments are really sensitive with continuously power going in, and then I should start
all the way from the first or I should start from that time inside of the material is how
much sensitive it is. I’m not the—fully professional about that.
So I keep having the—making decision on top of the incidents. So that is really
challenge. And then I’m not the non-STEM person. And I always sympathize myself:
what if I’m the person who in charge of this experiment? And as a researcher, all the
experiments, all the tools are your own baby. So day one, even if they take their baby in a
daycare, they want the daycare teach a trick exactly like Mom, right? So I’m more like a
daycare teacher. They are more like a baby. So I feel so careful. What if I made a
mistake? What if it’s not the way they keep doing that? So that is really challenging. And
also, even if sometimes daycare teacher cannot help it, baby falling down. Baby had a
scratch. But Mom’s running to it. “Oh my God, how can you do that? You should watch
them,” right? So, you know, space station, I cannot help to make something happen, but
researcher could have told me, like, “You better [be] careful more and then you should
take care of this more.” And then all those things are coming around my brains. “Oh my
God, what if he blame me? What if this make the results totally opposite way? What if
this make a huge fail for them?” So that is really stressful.
01:35:07
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[Soyeon’s song]
GN:
And you’ve told one story about a song that you sang on ISS. What is the story behind
that and how did that—
SY:
Oh, yeah, right. I don’t know why, but there’s no reason why I love the “Fly Me to the
Moon.” And not by the Frank Sinatra, but by the Julie London. And then that song is a
theme song of the—what is that? It’s one of the Japanese animation. They have a theme
song “Fly Me to the Moon.” And I accidentally heard that song around my college year
or around my master’s…? Anyway, around that time I heard that song. I thought that
song is really beautiful, without having any reason. I just hooked up. And I just read all
the lyrics and then memorize it and then singing by myself. At the time, I even couldn’t
imagine to be an astronaut.
And in Korea, we have not only ringtone but also caller ring. So ringtone is whenever
you have a calling from your friends, your phone ringing with that song, right? But in
Korea, we have a caller ring. What does it mean is when you call somebody and then you
should hear the really boring sound, beep, beep, beep. But in that sound, you can change
with a song. So if my friend has a ringtone as kind of “All I Want for Christmas is You”
kind of thing, and then if you call your friends, until your friends answer, you can hear
that song. I think this is smart. You don’t—so waiting time is not boring anymore. And
then you could feel what is their favorite song. And then you can change it, also. So I felt
like maybe “Fly Me to the Moon” would be the best song for me to make a caller ring. So
whenever my friends call me, they obligated to listen to “Fly Me to the Moon.” Yeah. So
I set it up for three, four years.
And then once I became an astronaut, I fly up to the space and astronaut—all my
colleague astronauts say that, “Soyeon, it’s the last chance to [song?] in space station.”
And, of course, that’s my song. So I sang the “Fly Me to the Moon.” So that was kind of
my song, even—after being an astronaut, when I was working in KARI in Korea and
some of my foreign friends were working in a NASA and Roscosmos, they knew that my
caller ring is “Fly Me to the Moon.” So one of my friends who was maybe a Secure
Foundation or Space Generation and then they needed to call me. But there’s a kind of
country code and some service code and local numbers, so whenever you call to the
foreign country, you cannot be sure if you call right number or not. So they say, “I just—
”—and say, “Hello,” and they say, “I knew it. It’s your phone because there’s ‘Fly Me to
the Moon.’” [laughter] So yeah, that was my signature song, actually. Yeah.
01:38:14
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[Returning to Earth]
GN:
Nice. And so now it came time—your 11 days in space ended, and when it came time to
get ready to leave to come back to Earth, you were no longer a—it wasn’t like when you
got up there and you’ve just been in the Soyuz for two days. What were your feelings
when it was time to head back?
SY:
First of all, I thought time flies so fast. Because 11 days is not that short, but I feel like
it’s just a second. [snaps fingers] And then right after my motion sickness all gone, I
thought I’m ready to stay in space station, but Yuri said, “Soyeon, it’s time to pack.”
“Already?” Yeah. So I was not ready to go back. I really want to stay over there. If
there’s no diplomatic problem, I really want to hide somewhere, not going down. [laughs]
But I know I couldn’t—I shouldn’t do that. So yeah, it feels so sad and then—but also I
miss Earth. I miss gravity. So in same time, I’m so excited to going back. It’s really
mixed feeling. Yeah.
GN:
And who were your crewmates for return?
SY:
Peggy and Yuri. Peggy Whitson and Yuri Malenchenko.
GN:
And your return flight was less than ideal. Can you talk a little bit about what you
experienced?
SY:
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, we had a ballistic reentry because we had a problem with the
separation. So descent module should be separated from the habitation module and
instrumental module, but we didn’t have a fully separated. Some part of the habitation
module still attached and flop it. [demonstrates] So we lose the balance, and we coming
down to the Earth upside down. So Soyuz capsule should have a heat shield on the
bottom, originally. So that is to bear all the heat when we going down with the huge
friction. But we were upside down, so our hatch should face all the heat. So our hatch is
almost on top.
So as I heard from the investigation team, if we expose to the heat more than several
seconds, we would be all killed because hatch would be all burnt. But we just passed that
small little window to survive. So that was a really, really interesting moment. And
because of that ballistic reentry, we should have a higher G. And even before having the
red alert for the ballistic reentry, I could see something blinking outside. And I told Yuri,
“Yuri, I think I could see something,” but I—during the training, I learned I suppose not
to see anything. And he said, “Soyeon, it would be the hallucination because it’s your
first time flight.” [laughs] And I just think he would be right because it’s my first time
flight. I was so excited. Maybe there’s imaginary kind of fireworks outside. And yeah,
maybe. But Peggy—after a while, Peggy said, “Yuri, Soyeon was right. I could see
something outside.” And then we realize that something happened. But all the board and
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computer said everything’s normal. So we feel suspicious. But right after several seconds
or some time and then whole lights comes up, and then computer said we will go down
ballistic reentry because we lose the balance.
And we had huge G, and then I told Peggy, “Peggy, I realize the G is too big and it’s
more than I expect.” And then Peggy said, “Because you are from the zero gravity. It’s
relatively big, but it’s not bigger than the normal.” And after a while, she said, “Soyeon,
you were right. It’s much bigger than the normal.” “I told you.” And it’s a huge G, and
then kind of six and eight G, and then maximum for several seconds is almost 18, 20 Gs.
But we couldn’t remember because it’s too short. So yeah, that was a really dramatic kind
of dynamic things.
But I take as kind of good luck and a huge opportunity because, as an astronaut, you
don’t have that many chance to have those critical moment to get through. And as an
astronaut, our military guys, it’s a huge kind of experience and medals, and there is
opportunity to prove yourself you are ready to be an astronaut. So my case is, because I
am a Korean and younger and woman, still some of the Russian old astronaut, they take
me as a real colleague. But after accident, they all come to me and, “Oh my God, you did
a great job.” And then, “I knew it. You made it.” And then, “Please tell me what
happened. Please tell me what you did.” And, “Oh my God, that’s incredible.” So those
accident was a huge opportunity for me to be more closer to all the other astronauts and
colleagues.
GN:
And so once you got the warning that you were going to go through a ballistic reentry,
was there anything that you as the crew had to do or was it just sort of—
SY:
No, not at all. Just sit back and then read the manual. And then we just checking all the
parameters and factors and anything we should do something, we should be ready for
that. But we don’t have any control once we have ballistic reentry, yeah. We just go
down as a bullet. Yeah.
GN:
And you ended up landing, because of that, off target?
SY:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So basically, if you have a normal landing, even before having a
touchdown, there’s three helicopters escort you. And once you touchdown and then
whole search-and-rescue team inside of the helicopter, they come to you and they open
the hatch. They pull you out of the capsule. But we realize that there’s no helicopter
outside. Actually, you know what? We just hoped to have, even if we lose the
communication, even if we had a ballistic reentry, we just thought maybe mission control
could find us and follow us. But finally we realized that they didn’t know where we are.
And we touched down and we wait for a while because at least search-and-rescue team
come, they will open the hatch and then take us out. And then for 10 minute or 20
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minute—for a while we wait, but nobody come. Because once somebody come they just
knock, but no sounds at all. So Yuri decided, “Soyeon, let’s get out by ourselves. I will
open the hatch, and then you just crawl up and then get out of that.” Because we are
landing on the side. We just bouncing inside. So I was on the bottom, and Yuri
Malenchenko was in the middle, and Peggy was kind of dangling. We were kind of like
that. [demonstrates] And then Yuri said, “Soyeon, because you are on the bottom, once I
stand up and open the hatch, you just go over me and then get out of the hatch.” And I get
out. And Yuri tried to get out, but we are so tired and then we are not accustomed to
walking on the gravity, so we cannot be sure—can we help Peggy. Because Peggy was
dangling, so somebody support her, somebody untied her, but Yuri and I, we cannot be
sure we can do that
So we told, “Sorry, Peggy. Let’s get out, and then we will check it out if there’s anybody
who can help us. And we will check.” And then we get out, and we just lay down on the
grass and then talking with Peggy and then Yuri. But finally, some nomadic shepherd in
Kazakhstan, they saw something coming out from the sky and they followed that because
it’s really weird. And then we found some of them. Even if they cannot speak Russian
well, we had a communication with them, and then they support Peggy and then Yuri
untied it and then they carried Peggy out of that. So those nomadic shepherds help us a
lot, yeah. Until the search-and-rescue team coming to us, yeah.
GN:
And how long did it take the search-and-rescue team to reach you?
SY:
Thirty and 40 minute. Actually, they finally couldn’t find us. So we ask the nomadic
people, “Anybody has a cell phone?” And then they don’t have any cell phone at all. So
we find a satellite phone, and then Yuri did the phone thing. And we called the MCC,
literally. [laughs] And we call our GPS location, and they come to us.
GN:
Did you just have a list of phone numbers in your—
SY:
I don’t know because I’m not the person who use the phone. But as I believe, they have
several [memories?] to call, yeah. And at least Yuri should memorize them. [laughter]
GN:
So after your flight, how had—what was your life like after the flight? Had things
changed?
SY:
So that is a huge misunderstanding between me and [Walt?] and between me and Korean
general public. Because my case is I was the PhD student. I was engineer. I was
dispatched to the Russia as an engineer from the KARI, and I was dispatched to the space
as an engineer also from the Korean government. So I felt like I just went to the space to
do my job and then coming back, as you can go to the Boston or Korea as an employee of
The Museum of Flight. So I feel like that.
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But Korean people, they have suddenly has an astronaut, you know, second. And they
just think I was changed from the engineering school student to the astronaut. But I feel
like I’m just Soyeon. Before being an astronaut, I was Soyeon. Before being an astronaut,
I was engineer. Even after being an astronaut, I was engineer and scientist. So I think I’m
just same. But I feel like they are changed because they treat me totally different. Before
having spaceflight, they don’t care about me. I’m just a student. But right after coming
back, everybody recognize me. Everybody praising me. And then whatever channel
rotating my face is on there. Oh my God, why people treat me totally different? And they
think, “Oh my God, she’s totally changed from the—just a student to the astronaut.”
So we had a huge kind of gap between us. And then that was really harder to handle for
me. I’m like, how can I handle people who recognize me? How can I handle all those
interview and media covering thing? Because I didn’t mean to be a celebrity. I didn’t
mean to be a famous person. I just want to be a person who take care of the experiment in
space. So psychologically, that was most challenging and hard part after my flight.
01:49:02
[Spokesperson work at KARI and involvement with the International Space University]
GN:
And so did you stay with KARI as—
SY:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It was obligation contract. Right after flight, I cannot resign from
KARI for two years. And after two years, I can resign whenever I want to do. So I’m
waiting for the two years because I was not a rocket scientist. I was not a satellite person.
So without a spaceflight, I don’t have any kind of job to do based on my track record.
Because I did micro machines, but KARI was not the place to do work with the micro
machines. So I thought like maybe for two years I can serve for the KARI as a
spokesperson or a public outreach kind of activity, because all my speaking engagements
was lined up and all my TV interview, radio interview was lined up and I thought like
two years would be quite fair. Because I had a training one year in Russia and Korean
government has spent huge money for my flight. Not because of me, but because of their
own mission. But anyway, I thought it’s kind of fair.
And served for two years, but after two years, I realized there’s still long line of the
speaking engagement requests and still a lot of the media interest. And I feel so grateful
for that because most of the celebrities, they forgotten after a while. I just expect also
maybe I will be forgotten after two years or three years. But still people remember me.
Still people want me to have a lecture. So that was really good. But five, six years later, I
thought it’s too much because it’s not the job I would love to have. Because when I
studied in engineering school, I don’t want to be a celebrity. I don’t want to be a person
who always on the TV. I don’t want to be a person everybody recognize me. But if I still
working in KARI, only job I can do in the KARI is a spokesperson or a public outreach.
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So that’s the time I thought maybe I better get out of the program. Because there’s no
astronaut program anymore, and there’s no human spaceflight program anymore. Then
there’s nothing I can do except public outreach. Then I don’t want to spend all my life as
a public outreach or a spokesperson for that. I really want to use my own skills. Yeah. So
I think of to take a leave of absence from KARI to get out of that loop. I didn’t mean to
resign, actually, that first time. I just thought I better have a sabbatical break, as all other
researchers do. Maybe I can do a sabbatical break for several kind of year or two and then
I can come back and then find other assignment, other job. But life is always going in
totally other way, so in other way.
GN:
So was that when—so in 2009, you went and studied—
SY:
No, it was 2012.
GN:
Oh, this was in 2012?
SY:
Yeah. So 2010 was my obligation was over and that time is already—I served for the
KARI for four years. And 2011 and 2012, I thought maybe I can get a leave of absence
for one or two years. Because every day having a lecture, every day having a TV
interview, is too much for me.
GN:
But so while you were at KARI, then you took—you got involved in—enrolled in the
International Space University?
SY:
Yeah, yeah.
GN:
What prompted that?
SY:
Yeah, that was interesting because, even if I’m an astronaut, I cannot be the person who
knows everything about space. But kids and general public, they expect astronaut knows
everything. So they ask me about black holes and Big Bang and they ask me about
rocket, they ask me about satellite. But I had no idea because my background was not
aerospace engineering. My background was not astronomer. But some kids ask me about
constellation in the night sky. I had no idea. But to the adult or to grownup, I can tell
them, “You know what, astronaut was not astronomer. You know what, astronaut is not a
rocket scientist. I am a mechanical engineer. I trained by the people and then I take care
of the experiment in space, so I have no idea about the rocket. I have no idea about the
constellation.” And then adult can understand. But kids, it’s different. Kids feel so
disappointed if I said, “I don’t know.” So I at least pretend to know something. So
sometimes I should study. Even if it’s not my major, I just studied to meet the kids.
Because they write the letter, “I really want to ask this question to the astronaut.” Oh, my
God, I have no idea about this. And then I study and then tell them as a professional.
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So for the general public who has no idea about STEM, maybe I better to study about
space in general, even if I don’t have to be a professional. So I’m thinking about how can
I train myself? How can I learn about space overall? And that was a huge headache for
me. So sometimes I read some science comic book and sometimes I read some
encyclopedia, but it’s too much. And I heard about ISU program. Their summer
programs, overview of the whole space things in nine weeks. Oh, that’s a good idea. And
then I apply and then I decided to join the program [unintelligible 01:54:43]. When I go
there, all the students ask me, “Why astronaut here? You already know everything.” No.
[laughs] Because I don’t know, I came here to learn. Yeah.
01:54:54
[Decision to move to the United States]
GN:
So what ultimately prompted you to move to the United States?
SY:
First thing is I just want a leave of absence. I want to have a sabbatical break. And where
should I go? And I have several candidate. Should I go to the Africa because I already
have some relationship with Africa and NGO and charity group? And then I’m just
thinking about, what if I go there and then [unintelligible 01:55:24] for them and then do
some volunteering? And else is, what if I go to the Russia and then to study more about
the space and everything and then to refresh my Russian language? And what if I go to
the other country or Japan or Europe? Because, basically, I really want to leave Korea for
a while because wherever I go everybody recognize me and then it’s really hard for me.
But which country and where and for what. That’s the question. And also, Korean public,
how can they take it if the astronaut want to leave their country? So that was a huge
headache for me and then thinking about it.
And I asking several advice from the person who knows about the media and then
everything. And then I met several kind of scientist who has active role out of the country
and then come back, kind of thing. And then one of my close friends—journalist—told
me, “You know what, Soyeon? Korean culture is always admired a scholarly people and
academic people. Even if you are a PhD, if you tell people I’m still—I still have
something to learn more, I still have something to study more, and it would—looks like
more humble action. And then if you say I want to study something more for serving
better for my country, then it would be kind of not that huge against feeling to you.”
So I thought, oh, that quite makes sense. But I already got a PhD, so maybe I cannot go to
the engineering school. And what else? And then thinking about, yeah, maybe—what if I
can learn about science and technology policy and then helping the policymakers or
congressmen or government official to make a better strategy for the future of Korea?
And what if I learn more about business or financial things, and then I can help engineers
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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to get a grant or a budget and then maybe can be the spokesperson for them or can help
the businessmen to invest money.
So those are things that comes up on my mind. And then trying several different things,
and finally I picked the MBA program to be kind of like person and to learn more about
non-STEM things, but a set of tools to help the STEM people better. So I applied several
different MBA programs and finally got an admission from the UC Berkeley. And I
promised my mom and, “Mom, MBA program is two years. So maybe two years of
studying in U.C. Berkeley, one or two years working experience in Silicon Valley, and
then coming back to Korea and then everybody forget about astronaut, then I can get a
kind of job and then maybe I can marry and then I can be a kind of normal Soyeon at that
time.” And then my mom totally trust me and then, “Okay, you should promise to come
back in three years.” And, “Okay.” And then come and then accidentally I met my
husband-to-be. [laughter] And he’s American, Korean-American, and then proposed. I
said yes and settled down in Pacific Northwest.
GN:
And you mentioned that you’d initially started—intending this to be a sabbatical when
you came to the U.S. And then what ultimately prompted you to retire from the Korean
Astronaut Program?
SY:
Yeah, right. So I had kind of like sabbatical break, and then my plan was, once I finished
my MBA, maybe I can go back to the KARI to join some space program and strategy
team to making future policy or strategy planning. Because KARI has those kinds of
huge team, to thinking about policy and strategy. Or if I learn more about business,
maybe I can come back to Korea and then join the tech company to help them, the
managing the engineers and thinking about the strategy for the business strategy kind of
thing. So that was my scenario. Yeah. So I just—sabbatical break, not resigned.
But once my husband proposed and married and then finish the study, and then I realized
that once I go back to Korea, my husband doesn’t have anything in Korea. He doesn’t
have any family at all. And his job, basically he cannot find any job in Korea because his
job stick to the U.S. because his license as a doctor doesn’t work in Korea. But my case, I
can either work in Korea or work in U.S., so maybe we better settle down in U.S. And on
top of that, thanks to being a celebrity in Korea, I can meet a lot of the celebrities in
Korea. And some of them’s already parents. They have kids. And I learned a lot about
how hard the kids of celebrities to live inside of those society. Not only in Korea. Every
single country, celebrity themselves is okay, even if they have a huge scandal, even if
they have a hard time, because it’s part of their job. But kids—and whenever they go to
the school, if their parents in newspaper articles not that good, they could be bullied and
then some friends laugh at them and talking about their parents is a nightmare, is really
nightmare, especially around the teenage. So I met a lot of friends who raised their kids
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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outside of the country because—to protect them. And then bring them back around the
college or more. Then they can understand the situation.
So when my husband proposed to me, I’m thinking about, should I bring this guy to go to
Korea or should I settle down in U.S.? And once we married, I should think about my
family. What if we will have a kid? For them, is it okay to go to the Korea and for them
they go to the school in Korea and what if they have a F on the math? Then teachers say,
“Oh my God, you are an astronaut’s kid. Your mom is a PhD. How can you get an F on
the math?” And what if they are not good at athletics or sports? “Oh my God, your mom
is an astronaut.” [laughs] And all their friends, also, “Your mom is an astronaut.” Or,
“How can you do this,” kind of thing. What if some newspaper article’s talking about me
in bad way, not a good way? Then all the classmate come to—“You know what? Your
mom is betrayer. You know what? Your mom is a [unintelligible 02:01:59].” So maybe
that would be the huge problem.
And then I think, yeah, I better settle down in U.S. and make my family here. But
whenever I have something to do in Korea, I can fly down to Korea whenever. Because
nowadays the global society is so small. So if I get a job in Korea, maybe I can go back—
go and back and back and forth. And if I have a job in U.S., I can raise my kids, and then
whenever I would love to visit Korea, I can bring them. But maybe their teenage or early
age should be kind of distant from Korea. Because in one huge interview, I saw that one
of the famous actor, he has his kids in L.A. because—and then he visited their kids and
asked them, “What makes you guys so happy?” And then these kids said that, “Because I
don’t have to be a son of Mr. Somebody anymore here. I can be myself here.” So that
struck me a lot. Yeah.
And astronaut’s kids, they cannot deny me at all. Wherever they go, cannot help it. And
then Sergey Volkov, the guy who fly with me, he was also astronaut’s son. And he told
me that was really hard because his dad was the hero. And, of course, he did really good,
but, of course, it’s really hard. So that made me decide to settle down in U.S. and that
made me decide to resign from KARI because I don’t know when I can come back to
Korea. I cannot hold my position for 10 years or 12 years. They should hire some other
people. So I resign. But there was a huge decision for me.
GN:
And what was the reaction when you resigned?
SY:
Some of them—most of them, as I know, they just accept it because it’s my life. And
they knew that I finish my old obligated role. They knew that I served for KARI more
than my obligation period. For some newspaper article, they always kind of love to make
noise and they said she’s a betrayer and she live in U.S. And then—at the time, I even
didn’t apply for my Green Card, but some tabloid said, “Yeah, first Korean astronaut
became a U.S. citizen.” I even didn’t apply for a Green Card. Who did give me a U.S.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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citizenship? [laughs] And all my friends said that, “Soyeon, you just married several days
ago. How can you become a U.S. citizen?” No way. It’s impossible. But some newspaper
already said, “Oh, she became a U.S. citizen,” and then that make a huge spiral. So not
because I resigned, not be I’m outside of the Korea, but because those fake news I
became a U.S. citizen, that is a huge thing. Because even if I’m a Korean general public,
if I read that the first Korean astronaut became a U.S. citizen, that is really bad. And I’m
not U.S. citizen at all, even right now. I’m Korean citizen and then Green Card holder. So
I still have a Korean passport. But they don’t care. They just made a noise.
So those noise make a huge against feeling against me, but I don’t think that’s a big deal
because one day truth is always will come and then people understand what my situation
is. Because if you are not in their own life, if you don’t see—look them closely, you don’t
know what happened. You don’t know what is the real thing. And then some people who
just see you really from the far, they always see something they really want to see, even if
it’s not the real thing. So that is a kind of still challenging to me.
02:05:37
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight and current activities]
GN:
So now that you have immigrated to the U.S. and you’re living in the Pacific Northwest,
how did you come to be involved here at The Museum of Flight?
SY:
First of all, I love public outreach and STEM outreach. So as an astronaut, I love that job,
of course, but sometimes it’s too much. That’s because I left Korea. Not to avoid but to
balance out. And here in Pacific Northwest, I really want to keep doing that. And at that
time, maybe some friends of mine and that interest me to somebody in The Museum of
Flight and then connected each other and then finally I started volunteering at The
Museum of Flight. And I love it. And then first of all, I have a Soyuz here. [points to
Soyuz capsule behind her] Not that many science museum had a Soyuz capsule in there.
Even in Russia, not that many museum has a Soyuz capsule in there. So I have a huge
connection with the Soyuz capsule. Personally, I feel so appreciate Charles Simonyi to
have that here. So yeah, it’s good to be here and working with you guys.
GN:
Wonderful. Well, and we absolutely enjoy having the opportunity and that you’re so
game to come and do interviews or come and speak. And I think the first I heard was
when our Director of Education, Seth [Seth Margolis], mentioned that you would show
up and talk to the summer camp kids in your outfit—or in your flight suit. So one—you
had your MBA. You had completed your PhD. What was your career plan once you had
resettled here in the U.S.?
SY:
If it’s possible, I really want to take advantage of all my background as an astronaut, as a
global experience, all different kind of country and people and as a PhD—engineering
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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PhD, has a good intuition about the engineering. And even if I’ve never walk in a
business world before, but MBA had a kind of good opportunity to teach me about the
business world. So I’m looking into, if it is possible, maybe commercial space company,
and then that would be the kind of huge combine all of them. Or any tech industry or tech
company who really want to have person who has all those insights and that kind of
thing. So I’m looking into it.
So still I’m networking people and then finding the opportunity. I cannot figure out
exactly what position, exactly what function would fit me, but I really want to be flexible
to fit me in the place they need me. So still exploring. And then I’m not good at U.S.—
American recruiting system. I’m not good at the networking yet because recruiting
system by the country is totally different. I already accustomed to have a Korea system.
So I’m still learning about that. And a lot of the experienced position and job is through
the network, not by the resume or kind of application process. So still I’m working with
the networking with the people and then trying to expose myself to the people. I’m here
and you can use me. So kind of like a sport player—athletic player in FA market.
[laughs] I’m here. You can pick me. So yeah, it is right now my status.
GN:
Got you. But you’re also teaching?
SY:
Yeah. I’m also teaching because—not only because I love teaching, but also because
teaching job is kind of easy and reachable as a PhD holder. So not many people believe
that, but as an astronaut, it’s harder to find a job right away. But as an adjunct faculty,
adjunct instructor to teach the physics in university is always opportunity coming up.
They always try to find an instructor to hire. So that was a kind of instant job I can have
right away, not because that is my ultimate job I really want to have.
02:09:48
[Thoughts on the future of the Korean Space Program]
GN:
Got you. So just a couple more quick questions. What do you see as the future for the
Korean Space Program? Where do you see Korea going in space?
SY:
Korean Space Program has—first of all, they really want to have a launching capability.
Because Korea is really good at the small satellite, but even if you made a really good
small satellite, if you cannot launch, that’s useless. And also, Korea has a real interesting
political and geometrical location right next to the China and Japan and North Korea. So
they are so sensitive to the security. So they really want to have their own satellite and
launch capability. I think that make totally sense. They really want to watch around their
area. And surrounded by the U.S., Japan, and China, it’s really a hard place. [laughs]
Think about it. You have 600-pound peoples around you, and you’re a small, little guys,
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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and it’s really tense. So in that kind of point of view, they really want to have a launch
capability, not for the missile, but for the satellite-launching thing.
And then KARI has a huge direction to have developing the rocket. And another thing is,
you know the Samsung. You know the LG. And in Korea is really good at small, little
electronics, and then that is related with the satellite capability and then small, little
satellite and functional satellite thing. So huge part of the KARI, huge part of the career
as the space program is looking to the small satellite market. So they have two big, huge
kind of branch, and astronaut program was kind of tool to promoting that program. So
current astronaut program is not for the astronaut program like America or Russia. They
really want to make a huge general public campaign to inspire about what the Korea is
doing for the space field. So I could be the MC or moderator during the Korean rocket
launch, and whenever we developed a new satellite and I have a TV interview and talk
about that. So that was the astronaut’s job at the time. And in the future, I believe Korea
would have a really firm launch capability, especially small satellite. Not huge one like a
Saturn V. And also, they could spread and then working with the other big, huge
countries and provide the small, little apps and device or part of the satellite. So I hope
Korea find their own edge, their own kind of skills and talent for that. And then that
would be the future.
But, of course, if commercial space comes up in not only U.S. but also China and Russia,
maybe Korean satellite can be launched through those commercial things. And, of course,
Korean peoples also interested in human spaceflight, but not just sending the astronaut,
but sending the researching or scientific experiment. So I’m a huge fan of the commercial
space because nowadays, to send our experiment, our research, only through the China,
Russia, or America, and then you should go through all the complicated politics and
diplomatics. But once we have a huge commercial space comes up, it’s easy to sending
anything to the space only by the business side, not by the diplomatic side. So then
maybe Korea would have more opportunity to send more things in space and to play
more actively in space, I believe.
And then I really have a huge hope and wish I can contribute for that. So if I have a good
firms and good position in U.S. and good relationship with the commercial space sector,
then maybe I can be the mitigator or a good spokesperson between the Korean
government or Korean Space Program with the commercial space sector. Because
between the Russia, America, and China, it’s a small, little player. It’s harder to
collaborate with either one. Because if you play with America, you should give up with
China or Russia. If you work with Russia, you should give up either China or America.
So Korea has a really tricky position, actually. So commercial space would be the kind of
breakthrough for them, I believe.
02:14:22
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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[Favorite aircraft and first flight experience]
GN:
Excellent. Thank you. So last two questions, which are—we ask all of our interview
subjects here, what is favorite airplane?
SY:
Ah, airplane. That’s interesting. I would never think about an airplane before. And then—
you know what, I’m not a huge fan of airplanes, so whenever I buy the flight ticket I
don’t care which airplane I will take. But when I take the A380—it’s an Airbus one—oh
my God, too many business class on top. So even if I was in a business class, I couldn’t
feel like I’m in a business class because everybody’s in business class. It’s not any
exclusivity. And most of time, I took the Boeing 737 or 777 kind of thing because it’s the
most common in Korean airline and Asian airline. So pretty much I prefer to take the
Boeing one, but I don’t care which one is more. So frankly, I have no idea about airplane.
But I really want to try the very classic, old kind of—how can I say—that’s kind of two
layer of the wings?
GN:
Biplane?
SY:
Yeah, biplanes. And kind of fans in front, kind of thing. I really want to dream to fly with
that. And then even if I don’t have any idea about airplane, I have one goal to make in
U.S., even before immigrate, even before moving in U.S., I have a dream. And in Korea,
it’s not easy to get a flight license if you are not a military because most of the airport is
under control of the military. Because Korea is a small country, several airport is all right
next to the Air Force airport and then together. So as a civilian, it’s harder to be a pilot.
But when I was even college student, I heard that in U.S. everybody can learn how to fly.
So I had a dream, if I have any chance to live in U.S. more than a year, if I can afford it, I
really want to learn how to fly. And once I apply for an MBA, got an admission, I
thought, oh yeah, I know I will spend all my life saving for tuition, so I cannot afford it.
But whenever I can find a stable job, I will check in the flight school. And I really want
to get a flight license. So that is still my dream. I cannot start yet because I don’t have
enough money yet. But whenever I got enough money, I really want to learn how to fly.
Then I can find my favorite plane.
GN:
And last sort of related question: do you remember the first time you ever flew?
SY:
Yeah.
GN:
And can you tell us about that?
SY:
When I was middle school student. Not the international flight, but from my hometown
Gwangju to the Seoul. And Seoul—I have uncle who live in Seoul, and we—every year
we visited my uncle and then my uncle’s family visited us. We go and back. And my
mom and dad, they cannot afford to buy the airplane ticket, but they knew that we all kids
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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love to try it. And then it was around mid-1990s, so in Korea, not many peoples have
experience to fly at that time. Nowadays, everybody fly. So they just try out. So it’s only
20-minute flight from the Gwangju to Seoul. And so 30 minute, 20 minute. Nowadays, I
would never take an airplane from—to there. But my mom and dad, with the small little
money, they really wanted their kids to fly because they cannot afford to buy—go to the
Japan or Southeast Asia.
So I still remember. And then all three of us, my brother and sister, was so excited. “Oh
my God, we are flying!” But, you know, more funny thing is, from Gwangju to Seoul, it
takes four hour driving at the time. From my house to go to the airport, it takes 30
minute. And then we wait and then go through the gate. It takes almost an hour. So we
should go to the airport to take airplane two hours before, right? So two-hour wait. And
30-minute flight. And from the airport to my uncle’s place there’s a huge traffic. It takes
three hours to driving. So total hours is almost six or seven hours, so it takes even longer
than driving ourselves. But still, I have a really touching memory, we had a first flight.
Yeah. I still remember. Yeah.
GN:
Very cool. Well, Soyeon, thank you very, very much for—
SY:
Thank you.
GN:
—agreeing to this evening interview. I think we are all done.
SY:
Cool.
02:19:15
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Yi_Soyeon.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yi, So-yŏn, 1978-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Nunn, Geoff
Biographical Text
<p>Soyeon Yi is an engineer, scientist, and astronaut who, in April 2008, became the first Korean citizen to participate in a spaceflight mission. She was born on June 2, 1978 in Gwangju, South Korea to Gil-soo Yi and Geum-soon Jeong. Her father worked in a farmer’s association bank until his retirement, and her mother was a homemaker. While in middle school, Yi was selected by the Education Office to participate in a special afterschool program for gifted math and science students. She continued her STEM-focused education at Gwangju Science High School and KAIST (Korean Advanced Institute of Science and Technology), where she earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in mechanical engineering.</p>
<p>During her doctorate studies in biotech systems, Yi became interested in the government’s search for candidates to serve as South Korea’s first astronaut. She applied to the astronaut program and was selected as one of two finalists, along with Ko San. In 2007, she traveled to Russia to begin training with Roscosmos for a flight to the International Space Station (ISS). She was initially designated as the backup crewmember but was promoted to primary after Ko violated regulations at the training center.</p>
<p>On April 8, 2008, Yi and her crewmembers, Commander Sergey Volkov and Flight Engineer Oleg Kononenko, were launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome (Kazakhstan) aboard the Soyuz TMA-12. They docked with the ISS two days later. While on the ISS, Yi oversaw a number of multi-disciplinary experiments on behalf of KARI (Korea Aerospace Research Institute). On April 19, 2008, after 11 days in space, she returned to Earth aboard Soyuz TMA-11 with Commander Peggy Whitson and Flight Engineer Yuri Malenchenko.</p>
<p>Following her return to Earth, Yi worked for KARI as a researcher and spokeswoman. She also attended the International Space University in France and earned a Master of Business Administration at the University of California, Berkeley. In 2014, Yi decided to resign from KARI to pursue other career opportunities. She settled in Washington State with her Korean-American husband and became a college instructor. As of 2017, she was a volunteer at The Museum of Flight, participating in programs to promote STEM education.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OH_Yi_Soyeon
Title
A name given to the resource
Soyeon Yi oral history interview
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Soyeon Yi and interviewer Geoff Nunn, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, November 28, 2017.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-28
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Korea
Russia
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Astronauts
International Space Station
International Space University
Korea (South). Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology
Korea Aerospace Research Institute
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Roscosmos
Soyuz spacecraft
United States. National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Women in aeronautics
Yi, So-yŏn, 1978-
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (2 hr., 19 min., 15 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Astronaut Soyeon Yi is interviewed about her engineering career and her experiences as the first Korean citizen to participate in a spaceflight mission. She discusses her academic work in mechanical engineering at KAIST (Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology) during the early 2000s and explains her motivations for applying to the Korean Astronaut Program during her PhD studies. Yi then describes her spaceflight experiences, including her training in Russia with Roscomos, her time on the International Space Station, and her work with KARI (Korea Aerospace Research Institute) after returning to Earth. The interview concludes with a discussion of Yi’s next career goals and her thoughts on the future of the Korean Space Program.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- High school and college years -- Postgraduate studies -- Astronaut application and selection process -- Selected as a finalist and balancing astronaut training and PhD work -- Selected as backup crewmember, training in Russia, and PhD dissertation -- Transition to primary crew -- Launch day -- Arriving at the International Space Station -- ISS experiments and experiences -- Soyeon’s song -- Returning to Earth -- Spokesperson work at KARI and involvement with the International Space University -- Decision to move to the United States -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight and current activities -- Thoughts on the future of the Korean Space Program -- Favorite aircraft and first flight experience
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Paul L. Weaver (Part 2 of 2)
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: May 24, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
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Abstract:
In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as
an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part two, he continues to discuss his involvement in the Pacific
Northwest aviation scene during the 1950s and beyond. Topics discussed include his aircraft
restoration work; his experiences with homebuilt aircraft and the Experimental Aircraft
Association (EAA); his memories of other aviation enthusiasts and notable events and locations;
and his work with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF) and its
successor, The Museum of Flight.
Biography:
Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the
Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and
Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at
Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.
Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after
transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois).
Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman
and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and
Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the
end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).
After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as
an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company.
Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft,
including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.
Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects
of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in
seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He
also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight.
As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
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Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation .......... 5
Aircraft restoration work, part one.................................................................................................. 9
Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum ................................................................................................. 13
Aircraft restoration work, part two ............................................................................................... 15
The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1 ....................................................................................................... 18
Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories ............................................................. 19
Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days ......................... 21
Stories about local airports............................................................................................................ 35
Closing thoughts ........................................................................................................................... 42
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Paul L. Weaver (Part 2 of 2)
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation]
STEVE LITTLE:
Hello. I’m Steve Little, and we are at The Museum of Flight in Seattle,
Washington. It’s May 24th, 2019, and we’re here to continue an oral history with Mr.
Paul Weaver. Our first interview was conducted on March 11th, 2019. Paul is one of the
original members of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation, the
predecessor to The Museum of Flight, and remains a volunteer to this day some 50 years
later. In this interview, we’d like to explore Paul’s memories with the history of the
Museum. So what I’m thinking—first interview you talked about early days, restoring
airplanes for PNAHF, and I’d like to hear a little more about that. How you got involved,
where you found them.
PAUL WEAVER:
How did I get involved? Pity. When I saw these poor airplanes sitting
outside, the weather—rain on them and all that sort—and it hurt me to see a Navy
airplane sitting out with no canopy. [laughs] But I saw it in a neighbor’s yard. I was
seeing the aircraft, and that’s where it all started. I thought—now I said, “Well, what are
they going to do with those up here?” And then later on I found out they’re going to start
a museum. Oh, good, then I’ll jump in and see if I can help.
But basically, it was—that was it, seeing the airplanes outside not being maintained, out
in the weather all the time. And so I didn’t like to see that because those airplanes—to
me, it’s going to be maintained and hopefully fly again. But I often wonder where they all
ended up. I know where some of them came—ended up. But the other planes, too. I hear
we got a storage area up at Paine Field?
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
And I have never been there yet.
SL:
Really?
PW:
No, I haven’t. And—
SL:
That’s our restoration facility.
PW:
But I know where there—where they have a little museum. Is that it?
SL:
It’s near there.
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PW:
Near. Okay.
SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
Then I see where the museum up there—that’s a surprising story and not related to the
Museum, really. But one of the fellows working up there on the—in the museum was
telling me about—he had a cousin, I believe it was, that was on an aircraft carrier, too.
“Oh,” I says, “is that true?” “Oh yeah,” he says, “the Liscome Bay.” And I—“What? I’m
sorry to report, but I watched the Liscome Bay burn.”
SL:
Oh.
PW:
It got torpedoed the same night we were under attack. But anyway, this is off track, but
maybe it’s part of it, somebody’d like to hear it, but—
SL:
Certainly.
PW:
But the Liscome Bay was a part of our task force. And so the night was—the night before
this has happened, of the task force—there was a lot of action out there. There was more
burning than I knew for sure, but I did identify that it was Liscome Bay was the one right
behind us burning. And so when I told this fellow that, he was kind of surprised. Well, I
was surprised to hear that he knew about the ship, too. And—
SL:
That’s an unusual one.
PW:
But that was past, you know.
SL:
So he was working on our restoration area up there?
PW:
He was in the—part of the museum—
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
…up at Paine Field.
SL:
Very interesting. Yes.
PW:
But that’s where he was working. I think that’s why—he was working around it, and
when he raised that word up, it struck a bell with me. Oh no. And I told him, I—at the
time, I says, “Well, I’m sorry to report this. You lost your relative there. But I happened
to see the whole thing.” But it was right short thereafter then we got banged. And that’s
when they—that’s this other thing I’m talking about, the torpedo coming into the food
locker. We had bologna sandwiches for a while. [laughter] Oh, but basically, let’s go
back to Museum stuff. But—
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SL:
So when was this that you saw these aircraft? Was that the early 1960s, mid ‘60s maybe?
PW:
That was in—I think it was probably the late ‘50s. Probably in the late ‘50s.
SL:
You were starting to see some of those.
PW:
Yeah. And I wish I could remember the guy’s yard they were in. That bugs me that I
can’t remember that.
SL:
Well, you—yeah, you mentioned McMicken Heights before—
PW:
McMicken Heights.
SL:
…which is kind of down by SeaTac area?
PW:
Yeah, SeaTac, uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah, and it was a new—McMicken Heights was a
new development, actually. There were some older homes there, but you buy so low with
the developers and—in that area. And right off of Mill Trail Road, you know.
SL:
Do you remember what airplanes were there?
PW:
Well, the—I think it was the F-80 was one of them and—no, I can’t really identify them
right now. I just see—
SL:
Oh, I understand that. Yeah.
PW:
I see them out there sitting in the rain. But I don’t think they were open to the public to
go in there and mill around because they’re in somebody’s yard.
SL:
So did you just go knock on the door to find out how this was going to start? Or how did
that happen?
PW:
No, no, no. I just kept track of seeing what was going on. I worked—I was working here
at Boeing’s at that time. And then when I found later on that we’re going—they were
going to start a museum, and well, then I’m going to find out more about. And that’s
where—[whistles]—that’s how it all started.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
I mean, because if we’re going to save something, that’s me. I don’t want to throw
anything away that can be fixed. [laughter] And that same thing had—was all the way
through my aviation career, was don’t throw it away. Repair it. Let’s get it back and
then—get it back in commission.
SL:
Certainly.
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PW:
I—well, let’s get back to the Museum. [laughs]
SL:
Well, yeah.
PW:
But I could tell you all kinds of stories in between related to fixing and keeping it going,
like the old Dash 80, you know, that we had some—out on the road, you know, you
didn’t have everything available to fix with, so you had to use your own innovation and
my—and repair, fix it, or something like that. [laughs] Oh my, oh my.
SL:
Well, were you involved in the Museum before it was at the Seattle Center? Or with it
when it was at the Seattle Center?
PW:
Oh, it was before that.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, I was—
SL:
Can you talk a little about that?
PW:
Oh yeah, I was way before that. I recall during the Center—when the Center—they had
something there, but I didn’t get involved at that time because I wasn’t in the know on it.
I just knew it was going to be happening somewhere, but I couldn’t find anybody for
quite a while to get a handle on the situation.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And, of course, maybe you—you know Mike [Pavoney?]?
SL:
I don’t.
PW:
Oh, okay.
SL:
The name rings a vague bell, but—
PW:
Well, there was Mike. He was a long—one of the guys in the Plant One of Boeing. He
worked there many—and his name’s on some of the displays here, where he had—
showing his wages and whatever. But Mike—and then Mike had a brother George, too.
And I recruited them to work with the Museum a long, long time ago.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so George—I mean Mike was very conscious about the same thing I was thinking
about. And so when I got up at Boeing here—because I was working elsewhere doing
other things. But he did his share, I think. Yeah.
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00:09:25
[Aircraft restoration work, part one]
SL:
So what aircraft did you get involved in and when on the restorations of these?
PW:
Oh, on the restoration. Well, the biggest thing, whenever anybody needed something I
got involved. And particularly on Dash—the 80 down here, you know, like getting it
when it come off of the garbage dump up in Alaska.
SL:
Well—yeah, the Model 80?
PW:
Yeah, the Model 80 up there. I just said 80, but that’s another one. But yeah, we brought
it down here and we had to put it on the field there. I forget what—was old Hangar One
that used to—at Sand Point.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
We had—
SL:
So it was—some of the restoration was done at Sand Point?
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s where we started. We did a lot of work there starting—scraping
rust. And I worked trying to get it presentable to—for the engine departments especially,
you know. But it was—everything was crude. We didn’t have molds to the tools and
things to work with. And you had—you supplied your own tools, mostly. And also the
money that goes with it. [laughter] And then at that time, the—being a Navy man and the
FM-2 came up, being all damaged and the way it was, I went on to that, too. But mainly I
stayed with the FM-2 the longest then.
SL:
Were they both under restoration at the same time?
PW:
Pretty much so.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But yeah, I think the FM-2 was probably started—I have to check dates. My memory
is—probably the—the [80?] was being repaired different places, I think. I didn’t—I lost
track of it for a little while.
SL:
I do have a little history on that. It came out of that first restoration around 1973.
PW:
Okay.
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SL:
May of ‘73. So it would have been before that probably that you were working on it, I
would guess.
PW:
Yeah, that—yeah. Probably—yes, I’m sure it was. Because nobody—there was no
evidence that it had been worked on before when I was working on it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But the FM-2, the kids wrecked it—or tore it up, beat it up and everything. And that—so
then I jumped on it, and the first thing I do—one, we had Seafair Weekend here. This
is—we had Seafair Weekend here and—when I was working on it. And the Goodyear
people were there. And I looked at the tires on the FM-2. They were old rotted things,
you know. And so I conned one of the guys from the Goodyear, just—well, I need two
new tires for the FM-2. And so he did. He supplied me two new tires for the—to
restoring the FM-2. [laughs]
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
And so that was one of my earlier contributions.
SL:
So what was your connection with Sand Point?
PW:
My—I was there in reserved status.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, I was in reserve status. And matter of fact, my regular time and reserve time
amounted a little over 30 years.
SL:
Wow. That’s a long time.
PW:
It is. But I enjoyed every bit of it. I was doing something, accomplishing something,
and—
SL:
So the reserve—were the guys that you worked with in the reserve up there, were they
working on the restoration on—at the same time?
PW:
Oh yeah. They got into it. I was behind—helping them. [laughs] No, I recruited them to
come down and help.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so every time—some of them worked other times, too, on it because they wanted to
restore it back, too. And they took the wings totally off. They took everything—I had to
kind of watch them. They’d tear it all apart. Because they cannot make it back flying, and
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I think that’s the way they were looking at it. We’re going to make it flying again. And
I—no, we can’t do that. [laughs] So in the restoration there, we had Bondo. Some of them
new, but they’re patching their old cars and everything. So we had a bottle of Bondo, and
we smoothed up everything we can. And the color of the—right now was—that’s a later
version of the color of the—for an FM-2. It’s not the original color of that FM-2. We had
the—it was the white underside and the blue top.
SL:
Oh, sure. Because it was sort of [unintelligible 00:14:50] carrier.
PW:
That’s the way it was originally. But that’s all I—it’s still an FM-2. And the—so after we
were through, we had—somebody I guess had worked on the prop and it wasn’t pretty—
not bad, but there was no spinner on it or anything like that. And I says, “Well, I
remember that this looks like—just like the F4F.” And so anyway, I—Spencer, he
happened to have some props over there—or prop motors. I think they were for another
airplane. But it did look like the electric props that they use on the FM-2. But no, the
F4Fs was the one that had the electric prop. And so I got this—wanting something to put
on the nose there to make it—so I got Spencer to give me a motor to mount on the nose
and the prop shaft. [laughter] Oh, this finagling is what you had to do.
SL:
Sounds like it, yes.
PW:
And even Boeing got into it. And I got chastised for that, too, because I went down to our
surplus yard and I happened to see some metal down there. And I thought, hey, I can use
some of that stuff, the extrusions and everything and bents. And, of course, I got
informed later on that this—I’m not supposed to do that. Boeing doesn’t want that metal
put out like that. There’s a law against it, you know. Rule against it. But I got metal.
[laughter] When I set my sights, I tried my best to fulfill.
SL:
Well, it sounds like you really did. You put a lot in on that FM.
PW:
But I had—but a lot—because so much damage to that old bird, that FM, that all these
Navy guys I recruited to help, they—I had them volunteer to help. [laughter]
SL:
Had them volunteer.
PW:
And they did. They liked it. They—but I also included good training for them, too. I set
up a department for parts and stuff and in—and so the people with that rating involved
with it, things like stores and—they used that for their training purposes, too.
SL:
That’s good.
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PW:
And so that’s when we was up here at Sand Point. And that was a real training because
the active—the squadron there at Sand Point had moved up to Oak Harbor, Whidbey
Island, and so there—we didn’t have no more flight operations off of the field.
SL:
Okay. So because I want to say the Museum—or Sand Point closed around 1970. But
sometime shortly before you guys finished the restoration?
PW:
Oh, Sand Point was closed, I think, at that—well, it was closed, yeah, when we did the
work on restoration.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
And so anyway, we—somehow or other, the airplane did get into that little hangar up
there near the seaplane hangar, and that’s when I got involved with it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I worked and tried to get it—but there was no organization to draw money or
anything, so my pocketbook took a beating for a little bit. [laughter]
SL:
Now, who did you work with at the Museum at that time? Or was this kind of—
PW:
Well, I was just a floater in the Museum, you might say. I was not anybody there—I
know Johnson was—had his book going, you know. He did the magazine section for
what we do and—but he was a B-17 man. [laughs] But anyway, and at the same time as
that restoration, Jack Lenhardt down in Oregon, he had an FM-2. And so I helped him get
his FM-2 back in operation again. And then I have the guy that—Len—oh, he bought the
F6 off a—you always saw it parked at SeaTac in the hangar down at the end of the field.
SL:
Oh yeah, I had heard of that.
PW:
Yeah, it was sitting down there. I mean, that’s where operations were going on with air—
you know, hauling passengers to—but [when?] Alaska Airlines is. And somebody at
Alaska Airlines, whether it was a guy—he owned it. And so he bought this from him, and
it had—[unintelligible 00:20:36] Jack Lenhardt in Oregon. And then he had trouble with
that, that his flaps wouldn’t stay up. And so I took all the actuators off the flaps and went
back to Spencer again, and he had a good supply of O-rings. Not by numbers but by sizes
and what you needed them for. And so for a small fee, he’d get—he’d give me all the Orings I needed. And so I put them all back together, check them out, and it worked.
Because, see, they worked—these were on vacuum operated, and so I finally got that—
what in the world, I got a block there on the F6.
00:21:39
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[Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum]
SL:
Well, yeah, you were talking about the F6 in the last interview a little bit and—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Was that the one that somehow you got into a fundraiser for the Museum?
PW:
Oh, I had them both up here for a fundraiser.
SL:
How about—talk about that fundraiser a little bit?
PW:
Oh, that fundraiser. Oh yeah. Well, my good buddy Harl, you know. And I was really
close to these guys. And old Pete, he was in there, too. And—
SL:
So Harl Brackin and Pete Bowers, right?
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Pete Bowers, uh-huh [affirmative]. And Pete and I, we were together before
all this. But anyway, so I says—they were talking about funds, needing funds for the
Museum. I said, “Well, let’s have a fly-in.” Most of them thought I was crazy. “What are
you going to have a fly-in? What are you going to do?” I says, “Just let me go and I’ll
show you.”
And so after so much hem-hawing around, I kind of more or less went on my own to get
it going. And Harl made arrangements to use this ramp over here to have the fundraiser
on, the fly-in. And so I contacted my Oregon buddies, and they both flew their airplanes
up here and [unintelligible 00:23:03] surprise. And Harl, he come in Museum magazines
or papers or something like that, and he set up a table to sell them for advertising for the
Museum. And so here we had a fly-in for the Museum, but I seem to have—I think they
had a lot of people who thought—wanted me doom—you know, doomsday on it. I said,
“No, just stand back. Let me do it.” And when I did, it was a—I mean, my little ad in the
paper about we were going to have it down here on the ramp. And that day, we had
oodles of people coming down and—so I don’t know we—big money. But these guys all
donated all their time. Nobody charged for nothing.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. This would have been early on, like maybe 1966?
PW:
Early ‘50s, something like that. Somewhere ’50, early ‘60s, something—
SL:
Yeah, there was a thing called the Aviation Historical Jamboree. That name rings a bell.
That’s why I’m thinking that—
PW:
[unintelligible 00:24:06]. I didn’t know it had a name. I just wanted to make it happen.
[laughs]
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SL:
Well, what airplanes were involved in it?
PW:
Well, those two fighters from Oregon were the main ones and then I had some locals
around here of the homebuilts—not homebuilts, but PT-19s and—around here. And some
of them showed up. Some didn’t. But I had enough there. I had enough to draw a crowd.
And Harl, he sold his books and magazines or whatever, adverting the Museum and, oh,
that, you know—and he—and so I worked the public. [laughter]
SL:
So this was—yeah, this had to have been one of the first fundraisers like that for the
Museum.
PW:
It was. Yeah, I don’t know of any other before that. We didn’t have no money, and so I
tried to help on that part by having the fly-in. And I wish I could remember the little
details. But I can recall right now how people—World War II pilots would come by and
see this here, these planes, and that’s—they all come up, and they all clamored around
these planes, and they wanted to sit in the cockpits and all that. But I’m going—it wasn’t
my airplane, but you might ask Jack. And he let them, some of the guys. “Oh yeah, I used
to fly one of these FMs off a jeep carrier,” you know, that—and so anyway.
Jack could—I procured a World War II flight jacket, leather flight jacket, and so it was
flown by—worn by a guy that flew off a carrier. And so I gave it to Jack and I says, “This
will match your airplane now.” So [unintelligible 00:26:15] around, wear his old leather
Navy flight jacket, you know. So it always looked good. Yeah, yeah.
SL:
That’s pretty cool.
PW:
That’s kind of a story, but it happened. I made it happen. And, you know, we didn’t have
nothing to start with. You can’t lose anything if you don’t have anything to start with.
SL:
Well, that’s true. Well, you talked about being good friends with Harl.
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Harl—
SL:
Can you talk about that a little bit?
PW:
Oh, Harl was a very nice man and very [unintelligible 00:26:53]. And we became good
friends. And I was—kind of hard to believe when I—word got that Harl had passed
away, you know. Because we hadn’t—we weren’t really close at the time, but
[unintelligible 00:27:17] as far as the Museum goes, but other than that my—but then—I
don’t know how—I just know that he helped me when I needed help. I wanted a backup,
somebody to back up behind me. “I have an idea. Now here’s what I want to do.” And so
he would go through the other way and make me—make it happen with me.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
But I think that was really—as you said earlier, I think that was our first big fundraiser. It
was an air show. Not an air show. Just a display, you might call it. The show was what
we wanted and what we were trying to do. And we had it—had quite a draw, a lot of cars.
Some of the guys I can’t name by name, they helped park some of the cars, get them a
spot to park and—
SL:
And that was about where we are sitting now at the Museum location?
PW:
Oh yeah, right—
SL:
Pretty close to here?
PW:
Yeah, right here. Well, where your airplanes out here are sitting right now, that was the
old 727 delivery center.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, and that—we used that ramp of theirs there. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
Okay. Wow.
PW:
Well, this—a lot of people were involved. I wasn’t the only one. But there had to be
somebody stirring the pot once in a while. [laughter]
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
But it’s all for a good purpose, you know.
SL:
It certainly was, yeah.
PW:
And I believed in it. And I still believe in it today.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, obviously you wouldn’t be here if you didn’t, so that’s
good.
PW:
Yeah.
00:29:11
[Aircraft restoration work, part two]
SL:
In ‘73, after you’d restored—the FM-2 and the Model 80 were both well on the way to
restoration, where did they go after they left Sand Point?
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PW:
Oh, that there—that plane, the FM-2, I heard somebody tell me that there was a group in
Sand—or Spokane. They needed it for their museum, this—and they had people there.
They had manpower to work on it. So they loaned it to—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
…they would loan it to Spokane to—for them to work on the [unintelligible 00:29:54].
Well, fine, if you can get them to work on it. Because my guys have been work, work,
work. They’re getting kind of tired of it, you know, because—
SL:
Well—
PW:
And Bondo and sanding and—
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. The photos that you gave us, though, show that it looked pretty
darn good in ‘73, like it was a good display aircraft.
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, the Whidbey Island people could see I was using Sand
Point facility, which is under their—so they—the head man or commanding officer of the
Naval Detachment up there, he was proud as all can be because I got his—set there and
he got his picture in—with the airplane. And, of course, we were sitting there shaking
hands and big old Building 30 on Sand Point and the—was right in the background.
That—he liked it. He was back into things again. [laughter]
SL:
Well, I think the photos you provided are—they really show a lot of the crew working on
it. But you’re not in those pictures. And you showed me one last time with you in the
picture.
PW:
Well, I didn’t—well, that’s all right. I don’t need that kind of stuff. Just get it done.
SL:
Well, we’d like to have that, though. [laughs] For the record, for the—that would be
ideal.
PW:
No, I never—I’m not double-jointed. I don’t go for a pat on the back or anything. I
want—I’m just a guy that wants things done. Sometimes people don’t like it too well,
but—because they think I’m pushing. But I try not to do that. I just try to get them
involved like I’m involved. And that’s how things go ahead. It’s all like Johnson with his
magazine and all that. We’d talk a lot—part of me was saying, but I encouraged him and
everything about—very nice to get that magazine, [PNAHF?].
SL:
Okay, so I’m not sure who this Johnson is that you’re talking about.
PW:
Well, he was the—everybody called him a journalist. He was a guy, published the—
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SL:
He did the newsletter for the early days of PNAHF? Something like that?
PW:
Yeah. The magazine and the whole bit, yeah.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
Yeah, he had [unintelligible 00:32:25]. But like I say, he liked B-17s a lot. And if you see
a lot of his papers, he’s always B-17s and—but—oh well. The B-17s were quite
something here. Remember—we were going to talk about the Museum, but I’m just
going to tell you about the one in Oregon, how the B-17 up on the pillar under the gas
station.
SL:
In Milwaukie, Oregon. Yeah.
PW:
Oh yes. I’ve been there. I’d go there and I’d watch it and I’d said—and I always made a
comment, but it’s the wrong people I talk to because they were just workers. [laughs] But
about stop the traffic and they’re ruining the airplane. And some of those darn kids went
in there, and they’d break the glasses on the instruments and all that stuff, you know. But
I heard that that’s being restored now.
SL:
Yes, it is.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
His son took it off the pedestal, and they’ve been working on it for a couple of years now.
PW:
Yeah. But I thought—when I heard—maybe from you, but I heard that. But, oh, good.
Somebody has got feelings for it.
SL:
Oh yeah. It’s a very good story. In fact, the Museum had some—our museum had some
surplus parts from the B-17 and we donated them to them.
PW:
I think that’s great, you know. Matter of fact, I just put a shear pin from the B-17
tailwheel—I happened to have a couple, three of them in the—how I got them, I’m not
too sure, really. But anyway, I donated them to the museum down in Mesa, because
there’s a B-17 down there also. And they weren’t no good for me anymore. And so I
donated them there. I said, “You guys are going to be needing these.” They were shear
pins. And they accepted them. And then also, there was a light. It goes to the top turret,
so the sides built in [unintelligible 00:34:50] for it. Anyway, I—this came from another
airplane, you know. I kept it. So I donate that back to the Mesa B-17 and where—you
know, where your top turret [unintelligible 00:35:05] pull that cord and everything. I
donated that to them down there, too, for them to use—put into their airplane. And the
bracketry and everything was there for the—but now they got—now they have a light in
there. [laughs]
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00:35:20
[The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1]
SL:
That’s good. You also mentioned on the Model 80 that we have sitting out there that you
hadn’t seen that for a number of years.
PW:
Oh, no, I haven’t.
SL:
So can you tell us kind of a little about all that?
PW:
That was a—I wasn’t—well, I was in and out. See, I was—I work full-time, so I wasn’t
able to keep on top with these. Whenever I’d hear of a meeting, I’d go to it. But I didn’t
know any more about it than just de-scale and the rust and—but if I was—I was greatly
amazed when I seen how it’s done. Oh, it’s nice. And then when I read more about the
flight operations of the different airlines, how they got started in Alaska, and then this
here is a good tie-in with what I’ve read and—but no, I have not—I didn’t work on it all
that much. Mostly, all I ever was—the engine mounts and stuff like that in the front end.
And where it went, I don’t know. I just—
SL:
It lived in various places.
PW:
Yeah, I—
SL:
It’s something I was going to—
PW:
So it was out of sight. But I had some other stuff to work on. But it was being worked on,
I heard. And I said, “That’s good. As long as it’s work—being worked on.”
SL:
It was. I know there was some work done over at what was called the Tacoma Industrial
Airport, which is the Narrows Airport.
PW:
Oh.
SL:
We had a restoration facility of some sort there, and I was curious if you worked in that at
all.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
But it doesn’t sound like that’s where—
PW:
It wasn’t Nalley Valley Airport? [laughs]
SL:
No, it wasn’t. I was doing some research yesterday to confirm which one it was.
PW:
Oh, I used to fly in and out of there a lot.
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SL:
Oh, did you?
PW:
Old Nalley Valley. Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I thought maybe it was Lakewood or something, but no, it was—
PW:
Yeah, it [unintelligible 00:37:29]—I was up there for the dedication and most of that old
Narrows Airport.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I was one of the first flying in there. [laughs]
00:37:40
[Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories]
SL:
Well, when you were flying, what were you flying about at that time? What airplane, do
you remember?
PW:
Oh. Always had an airplane. I’d buy something and need to repair it, and I’d fix it and I
flew it. Oh, I had three Aeronca Champs at one time.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And one of them I had in good shape, then the others pretty close to being good shape.
The other needed some work, so I found a guy from—came—approached me from
Alaska. And so he—so after a little talking, he bought those three airplanes and all the
spare parts I got, and he’s going to take them up to Alaska and put floats on them.
[laughter] So I made him some kind of a good deal, you know, because I was getting a
little tired of working for a living and working on airplanes on the side.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, it sounded like you did the full-time job as an A&I—or an
A&P.
PW:
Oh yeah, [unintelligible 00:38:45] full-time job.
SL:
And then you’re doing this on the side and had an awful lot that you had on your plate.
PW:
It was. And at times at home, when I was there I’d buy—I’d buy somebody have
something too big for them. It cost them a lot of money. Since I was licensed and all that,
I’d—you know, that’s where I could save. So I’d take it home, and I’d—like one guy had
a broken spar, cracked and it was a broken spar on his—and I bought it kind of rather
cheap. [laughs] And so I took it home and I spliced a spar in, recovered that area back up
and went down and sold it. And that’s—sold the airplane after I repaired it. I’d do that all
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the time. You know, like I talk to people now about the—oh, first—I live out there now,
south of town here. What’s it—
SL:
Oh, Federal Way.
PW:
Federal Way. Yeah. Federal Way International Airport. You knew where that was?
SL:
Well, I think it’s over kind of near where the playing fields are now.
PW:
Yeah, it is. It’s—I mean, I’d looked there—somewhere around there there’s some UC78s buried.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. They bought—somebody bought them. And there was some damage, but they
rot—wood rot on the spars where the clamping was on. And the CAA, at that time, put
quite a restriction on how to repair them. And nobody wanted to do it, so—the cost was
prohibitive, so—I know two of them disappeared, and I—later on I found out they were a
big [unintelligible 00:40:44] there. And so it was dismantled in a way, and this airplane
would sit in there. And he covered over it with dirt.
SL:
[laughs] Oh, geez.
PW:
So up around that field, they’ve got some Useless 78s. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, I guess. Oh, man.
PW:
UC—[unintelligible 00:41:05]. But they have another name for them, too, you know.
You probably heard that, too.
SL:
Hm-hmm [negative]. I don’t think so.
PW:
Double-Breasted Cub.
SL:
Okay, yes. Yeah. I know which ones you mean. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, but it was quite a training airplane. Had the old Shakey Jakes in it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. The old radials, yep. Oh, geez. That’s—yeah, I don’t—Jacobs’s
an engine—you don’t hear about those anymore, the old Jacobs radials.
PW:
I haven’t—I’m not that involved with them anymore, but they were a good engine. But
you had to maintain them. You just can’t fly them without doing some work on them.
And I had one—I get—departing from the Museum here with my other talks. But
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anyway, there—like I say, there were [unintelligible 00:42:07] before—even the hangar
up there is gone now. And that’s it.
SL:
Magnuson Park now, yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Exactly, exactly. Well—
PW:
But like I still remember coming over the power lines—or under. [laughs]
SL:
Under the power lines? [laughs]
PW:
No, not under them because that—there was not too much room, but over. And I
remember—lot of experiences coming through there. But if you just use your head just a
little bit, they didn’t really bother you. They could if you didn’t pay any attention, you
know. But same with everything around here, yeah.
00:42:54
[Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days]
SL:
Well, a couple other folks that that you’ve mentioned, though, too, is Pete Bowers.
PW:
Oh. [laughs]
SL:
Let’s talk about Pete and—
PW:
Pete is a very good friend of mine. And—anyway. I do—I’d help Pete maintain these
airplanes. You know, it needs things done or anything like that, he says, “Paul, I need
help,” and I says, “I’m right there.” And I was with him in this old EAA Chapter 26 we
had, you know.
SL:
Okay. That chapter is still around.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, Pete, he had some—I don’t know how many people, whether it’s still
around or not, but he liked the look of a Corsair, so he decided he’s going to get one. And
I think he called it Shamu.
SL:
Namu, yes. N-A-M-U—
PW:
Namu, Shamu. It was related to the hydroplanes out of [unintelligible 00:44:05]. They got
that kind of a name.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
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PW:
Yeah. You know, and anyway, it’s a spin-off of that. But I helped old Pete on that, and I
thought, oh man, just for—it’s a lot of work. And all the fuel system [unintelligible
00:44:24] and the gas tank area and all that that he’s building up. I helped him a lot in
that. And he liked to work. Pete’s favorite saying is “wood is good.” Yeah, that was his—
when we were coming to airplane. “Wood is good.” That’s what Pete said. And I’ve got
to find that book I told you about his Fly Baby.
SL:
Yeah, you said you had a plan book for us.
PW:
I haven’t had a chance to dig around for it yet, but somewhere, it’s—things are in a little
disarray, this moving around. But he give me one—I think it was the number 18 of the
book. He had a whole batch of them made up, and—people wanting to build his Fly
Baby. And so, okay, that’s good. And at the same time, prior—just prior to his plane, this
other guy down in Oregon had one similar to that, and it’s called the Story.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so the—I had a money interest in the first Story of his when
they brought it here.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I used to fly it around, uh-huh [affirmative]. And then the number—the other Story, the
second Story there, that—let’s see. Let me get it straight. Pete had it. Something like that.
And I says, “Let me have it. I’ll finish it up.” But I did—you know, I had my hands full,
but I was still going to do it. And I did some of the work more—I got—but I don’t know
really what happened to it, that second Story, because it was going to get too—well, me
and—we made a flying club out of that first one.
SL:
That’s what I was going to ask.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Because I’d heard about the Story—the “Story Story” is something that Pete wrote about
that club.
PW:
Yeah, it’s the oldest homebuilt airplane in the Northwest. [laughs]
SL:
Huh.
PW:
It’s an antique homebuilt.
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SL:
So you were in that flying club?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I flew it all around. One time—oh, one time I was flying it and I was
down in—what—Vancouver. I was going down to check on the FM-2 in Oregon. And
one morning I was going—go down to see the [unintelligible 00:47:07] and—because I
was helping Jack get his airplane all together. And it might be of interest to know that—
note that the one that he has is now in Pensacola.
SL:
Oh, that FM-2?
PW:
And that’s the one that I was working on, you know. And matter of fact, I loaned him the
old engine panels off the FM-2, and he even made copies off of it. And so we—you’d
never know the difference. So he used them as patterns to make one for the FM-2.
SL:
For his FM-2, yes.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And then I had another guy down in Oregon. He had an FM-2,
also. So from the old beat-up one we had, I allowed him to take some measurements and
everything off the spar on the vertical fin. There was some old corrosion in the one he
had. And so he made a new spar from using the—for dimensions. So we helped more
planes back in the air. [laughter]
SL:
That’s pretty good.
PW:
[unintelligible 00:48:41] would ever fly again, but they—we got some more flying.
SL:
Yeah, some other aircraft benefitted from the Museum’s aircraft.
PW:
Yeah. And I really don’t—happened to this other one. That—but that’s the way to do it.
You help each other. And that’s what I—how I worked it. You help each other.
SL:
How did you and Pete meet?
PW:
Oh, my gosh.
SL:
If you even remember. That’s quite a while ago, I’m sure.
PW:
Long time ago. And it’s probably in the early days of the EAA fly-in stuff.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And the—and when he was home there on [Ambaum?] and the—and all the—I wonder
whatever happened to the old—he had gliders. He liked gliders, too. And he had a sevenday-old—I’m trying to remember what he called them things, the early days there, but the
Bowlus or something like that.
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SL:
Bowlus was an early sailplane, yes.
PW:
Yeah, uh-huh [affirmative]. And—but he went to—oh, just at this point, but I told you
before, but one time Pete come to me and he says, “Paul, I need help.” I says, “Okay,
Pete. What are you going to do now?” He says, “You have to take me to go recover my
airplane.” “Oh,” I says, “which one?” He says, “That kid of mine,” he says, “he was over
east of the mountains coming back or something like that, and the weather—got
weathered in, so he landed up on Snoqualmie Pass in the parking lot of the cars.” I said,
“Oh, God.” He said—I said, “I’m afraid they’re going to impound it on me.” I said,
“Come on. Let’s go.”
So anyway, I took Pete and flew him over. And they had a little emergency strip down
below there on the—near the highway. And so I took him down there, and the guy down
there gave him a ride up to get his airplane up on the ramp. He got the thing, so he flew it
out of there. And, you know, he beat me home. [laughter] Well, I wasn’t in any big hurry
anyway. But we had—I had some other guys with me, too, and we [unintelligible
00:51:00] for him to get his airplane.
But Pete had a lot of the energy. He was always busy, always going on. We talked about
the Shamu/Namu, whatever you want to call it, you know, all of that. And maybe I
mentioned the other day about his bookkeeping. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah, his filing system?
PW:
His filing system.
SL:
Tell me about that a little bit, yeah.
PW:
But he always wrote articles. He liked to write. He liked to write, and that was good. And
he’d go down there—you want to know something, “Pete, what do you know about this?
What do you know about that?” “Well, let’s go see.” He’d go in the house, front room,
there’s a filing cabinet. One big filing cabinet. A stack of books here, a stack of books
there, a stack—he knew what stacks—I don’t know whether he had them alphabetically
or not, but he didn’t have no filing cabinets. Maybe he did. They might be full. But—
SL:
Wow.
PW:
But he had a heart of gold, he really is. And one time we went to Oshkosh together and—
anyway, he went—he got a room at the college there and—so him and his traveling
companion, they stayed in the college. And so me and the other guys who were with me,
we slept in my tent. I had a tent, and I put the tent up. And one night we had a couple of
new guys come in my tent. And so we introduced him. Oh yeah, one of them was RV, the
guy who designed the RV.
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SL:
Yeah, Dick VanGrunsven.
PW:
Yeah. And so he come in, and then another guy with him, too. He had a homebuilt, also.
And I forgot his name now. But anyway, he—Dick knew him real well. But we had a big
time together, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Did you guys fly like one of your planes back for that or—
PW:
No. I drove a car back because I took a tent. We heard that living was kind of sparse, you
know. So I had sleeping bags and tent in my station wagon. We were really sporting it.
[laughs] And boy, one nice thing about that, the hot water. The hot water tank supply was
laying the garden house out on the lawn. Let the sun warm it up. [laughter] That’s the
way we did it and, you know. And some of the guys there, as far as sleeping goes, we all
kind of crowded into the tent and in the back end of the station wagon. And we had—we
said—it happened to be raining and I happened to be in the low spot in the tent, so my
sleeping bag got kind of wet. The other guys, they were dry and in the back end of my
car, and I got wet. [laughter]
SL:
Something wrong with that.
PW:
Oh, it was—laugh about it now, but it was a good time. Those were good times, you
know. Like I say, the hot water was—the water was the sun warm up in the garden hose.
And guys like, oh, Jim Bede and Burt Rutan, and we’re all together chewing the fat all—
and they all moved on. Old Bede was going to do so much. He’s got a nice little
firecracker there, but he couldn’t get the engine for it right. So everybody bought plans,
but I don’t know how many—he designed it to be a jet engine, I think.
SL:
The BD-5, yes.
PW:
Yeah. BD-5, yeah. But a lot of people, they’d buy portions of the plane. And I didn’t hear
too many guys—later on—was it—one of the pop—Pepsi-Cola or something like that.
Didn’t they have—they got five of them together?
SL:
They did. That’s right. I’d forgotten that.
PW:
Yeah. And they had a little flying group here and that kind of…
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. There is a guy in Federal Way that has one of the little jets.
PW:
Oh, is that right?
SL:
And he performs at air shows.
PW:
I’ll be darned.
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SL:
And he stores it in his backyard.
PW:
Oh my, oh my. But—
SL:
So was one of the other guys Molt Taylor, by any chance?
PW:
Molt—no, Molt was down in his car. I don’t—but his flying car and—yeah, Molt was
at—we just moved in from Illinois with the home—you know, the—moved into
Wisconsin for display. And we just relocated, the EAA—
SL:
They came—it went from Rockford to Oshkosh.
PW:
Yeah, Rockford—should be—Rockford—[unintelligible 00:56:58] from Rockford.
[laughter] But yeah, they just recently got there, and then—but it’s right in the very
beginning of this changeover, you know. We had been there too long. But—
SL:
So—
PW:
But getting back to Pete, the—I miss Pete because we did have a good talking
relationship, you know.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And—
SL:
Well, the Namu was designed to be a two-person airplane. Did you ever get a chance to
fly that one? Or was it—
PW:
Nah. No, no. No, I just had the biplane, which had the old—we had the biplane version of
the Fly Baby.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But I didn’t—we—I think he had talked about it. We had Cece Hendricks.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I know, Cecil, yeah. Or knew him, yes.
PW:
Yeah, okay. But Cece was involved there, too. He was a [worker?]. And so—old Pete, he
had a lot of—oh, he had a lot of help. All he had to do was ask. You know, because
everybody would help him and he helped them, whatever they needed, so that kind of—
and—
SL:
So you flew the Fly Baby? Or the Bi-Fly Baby?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I flew it. And then when he moved, he made a biplane out of the Fly
Baby, but that was another [unintelligible 00:58:36]. It was up to [unintelligible 00:58:38]
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to a fly-in at that time. And I hadn’t flown his—this one yet. And so I was over looking
things over, and he had me go in and—“Sit down,” he says. “Check it out. Sit down and
see how it fits.” And I went in and I says, “Pete, I’m not as long-legged as you are.”
[laughs] But he made—he’d put the rudder pedals in there for his legs, and so I stretched
out. I think I put a seat cushion behind me to help me get forward more.
And so that—he—so somehow or other he wanted to prop the engine and—“Okay.” So
check—go and check the engine out. “Yep, fine, sounds good. Everything looks good.”
And so the next thing I know, I got an old cloth helmet shoved over my ears—or head,
and he says, “Take it out for a spin. Take it—go chase those guys.” [laughter] There’s
more—a lot more Fly Babies around [unintelligible 00:59:47]. And I—“Well, all right.”
But I didn’t catch any of them, but I did get in the air with them, though. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah. What did it fly like?
PW:
Huh?
SL:
How was the control of the airplane?
PW:
Oh, fine. Just—an airplane’s an airplane. [laughter] You got a propeller that lifts you off
the ground.
SL:
Yeah, all true. All true.
PW:
No. No, it was fine. I mean—I can’t—
SL:
Yeah, nothing unusual about it or anything.
PW:
Nothing unusual.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
You know. But, yeah.
SL:
Well, we have that airplane, you know, up at our restoration center in Everett.
PW:
Yeah, that’s what you said. But the one that’s hanging in the Museum, I remember the
guy that—I don’t remember him that well, but I remember he—was he a doctor or
something or a dentist or—
SL:
I don’t recall.
PW:
He had—what his occupation was, but—did you ever see the Volksplane?
SL:
I’ve heard of it. I’ve never seen one.
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PW:
That’s the one with the Volkswagen engine. Well, I built one of them. Not complete. I
got it almost complete, and one of the Boeing engineers, he likes it, too. So, okay, I’ll sell
it to you. But I didn’t have any wings for him. But I told him, I says, “I know a guy that
has a pair of wings for it.” And so we went over and he says, oh, he’ll sell it to him. So
there a guy got him an airplane and two wings. No fabric on it or anything. [laughs]
SL:
Do you know if that ever got finished?
PW:
I don’t know. But he went back east with it.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, they—no reason why he couldn’t go and—remember Jim Wickham?
SL:
I know the name. Didn’t know him.
PW:
He had—he made a homebuilt twin-engine airplane. Used to keep it up at Thun Field.
SL:
Yes, yes.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. I flew that, too, you know.
SL:
Oh, interesting. Because the last I heard that was in restoration.
PW:
Oh, down here?
SL:
No, [unintelligible 01:02:07]—
PW:
Oh, it hanging here in the high bay area here for a while.
SL:
Oh, it was?
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah, it was hanging back in the corner.
SL:
Oh, interesting.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Last I heard, it was—there was a wing spar for it down at Crest Airpark. And they pulled
it out of the hangar, and a guy had bought it and—bought the whole thing and was trying
to restore it.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
I don’t know what the status is.
PW:
I haven’t heard anything on it for years.
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SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
But Jim, he was a good friend, too. He was an aerodynamicist with Boeing, you know.
SL:
Okay. Okay.
PW:
And he had a brother-in-law, Verne Hudson. And there’s another thing. Verne was a—as
I recall, this wind tunnel you have in the old Red Barn area in there, Verne built that.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. But it was made from some drawings he got from somewhere else. But he
designed that—he built it.
SL:
That’s good.
PW:
That Verne, he—yeah, we spent—incidentally, just off—I had a little—I have a—usually
have fun with a lot of people that I associate with, and Verne is a—he’s a good—you
know—the plane is—they took—showed us the—what was it—the aerospace engines—
the airplanes up above, and they built a—mounted on top of a 747.
SL:
Oh, the Space Shuttle, yes.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Went into space. Oh, it’s—well, they—Verne had—he designed that to hold
that airplane and—but anyway, we worked together. But getting back to my story, but—
I’m always joking a little bit to make things go, and I had a big rubber mount and—big
mount. And so I taped it up one day, just hung it up on the—outside the engineering
room, and I said, “Verne Hudson’s crushing tool.” [laughter] He got a kick out of that.
Yeah. God, yeah. God, my mind goes in tangents.
SL:
Well, I understand that, yeah. It really does.
PW:
Because I got too many—I got so many things to say, and I don’t think I have time to say
it.
SL:
Well, and I—the other thing I’m a little bit curious about is Molt Taylor and the Aerocar
and—
PW:
Yeah, but—
SL:
…what do you know about Molt, or your relationship?
PW:
Well, I don’t—I just knew of his—association.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
I knew this. When we all went back to Oshkosh there in the beginning, he was along for
the—but I don’t think he had his Aerocar there with him. But he was there, and he—I
think he was in the gang [unintelligible 01:05:21] to get there [unintelligible 01:05:23],
shooting the breeze, you know.
SL:
Well, it sounds like it was a pretty small, close-knit group of people here in the
Northwest.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We were all good. We were all close. We all went—and Bill Lawson,
he had a Thorp T-18 he was building. I used to help him build that up there. Cece
Hendricks’s dad, he said—his was pretty much complete, his T-18. And I helped Cece a
little bit on his, and there were some other people. Then one time one of the guys was
building a—I forget what model it is now that he was building. But there was a guy back
east was selling canopies for the homebuilt, and he wanted quite a bit of money for it. So,
along with Pete, we made a dummy-up, cleaned it up, that matched the profile of the—
and drilled all kinds of holes in there. So we did run the vacuum on it, put the plaque—
plexi—
SL:
Oh, gotcha.
PW:
…back and moved back and formed our own canopy. This is just like the one the guy
wanted to sell for a small fortune. [laughter] But, you know, if you can’t get it, you can’t
afford it, make it.
SL:
You figure out how to make it, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. But later on, there was some other things like that. Make a Mustang—was it a
Mustang? Yeah, fighter. Yeah, we made that—made our own canopies for that, too.
SL:
You were really involved in the early homebuilding days.
PW:
Oh, yes. I enjoyed it. Just like I enjoyed my—all of our stuff that we have now in the
Museum, you know. But—
SL:
Any other folks that you remember from the Museum? You know, like—
PW:
Oh, my.
SL:
…like, oh, the Elliott Merrills, maybe, of the early days. Or Kit Carson, Jack Leffler?
PW:
Yeah. [pauses] If they worked with me, I remember them.
SL:
Oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah.
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PW:
Yeah, but some of the people were—I classify them as administrative people. And me, I
was the working people. [laughs] So I didn’t get out too much, but—
SL:
Well, it sounds like you’re—
PW:
What we needed.
SL:
Well, yeah, Harl was the one of the early ones of those. And then, of course, there’s the
board. So your relationship really was with Harl in this early on.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that’s right. But yeah, we did have—we had a lot of things—
talked about a lot of things, do a lot of things. What—if I remember right, at one time—I
may be getting something mixed up here. At one time, I think, in the beginning, we didn’t
have any place for meetings and things, so I believe that we used the Chamber of
Commerce building out on Renton Field. We used that for office—for meeting places.
SL:
That was one of the first addresses for the PNAHF, was—it was. You’re right, you’re
right.
PW:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s where we—where we had our meetings, you know.
SL:
How many people would show up for something like that?
PW:
Oh, maybe half a dozen to a dozen.
SL:
Really? Wow.
PW:
Yeah. But a lot of them curious about what we’re doing or something like that, or they
wanted something already made up. No, we have to make it. [laughs] You got to restore
it, you know. We involved homebuilding in there, too, along with—and that’s—
SL:
Oh, that makes sense.
PW:
Yeah, so we used that along with homebuilding to keep the stimulus going, you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Was Pete there at some of those early meetings?
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
SL:
Kind of assumed he would, but—
PW:
Yep. Yep. Well, he—Pete was a [unintelligible 01:09:58] person and—but most of the
time Pete was really involved in was when we’d have the meetings at his place.
SL:
Oh, you did?
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PW:
Yeah, in his hangar, so to speak. [laughs] But you’d be surprised at the stuff that was in
that place. And they added an attic on it, too, you know. And I keep looking in the
Museum there, looking up at the old wing warpers up there and all that. I wonder how
many of these did Pete have up in his attic, if any of those?
SL:
That’s a good question. I don’t know.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
You know, I—
PW:
But he had a quite a few of them up there, and I’m looking—I’m saying, “Have I looked
at that before,” you know?
SL:
You may well have, yes.
PW:
Probably, uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah.
SL:
Yeah, he had a lot—
PW:
But Jim Wickham was a good—he was an aerodynamicist, and he was involved with a
lot of that stuff, too, you know, helping. And we were one big happy family, the way I
looked at it.
SL:
It sounds like you really were.
PW:
We all had one purpose in mind: to keep them flying. [laughs]
SL:
Hm-hmm. [affirmative] Well, that’s really good, Paul.
PW:
Yeah. You got to help each other, you know. As I say, Bill Lawson, when he’s building
his T-18, I helped him. Other people I helped there, too. And I helped anybody if I had
time to do it. I did—
SL:
It sounds like you put an awful lot of time in on—
PW:
Oh, I did. I did.
SL:
…volunteer time in the early days.
PW:
Yeah. My family noticed that, too.
SL:
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? [laughs]
PW:
Well, they—“Don’t you ever stay home?” [laughs]
SL:
I have a feeling that probably happened with a lot of guys in the early days.
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PW:
Yeah, and—yeah, because—yeah, that’s true.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
PW:
And, yeah, not only did I do that kind of—all that kind of stuff, I got roped into helping
three—two—maybe three once in a while—seaplane operations off of Lake Union. And
old Kurtzer [Lana Kurtzer] down there, you know.
SL:
That name rings a bell, too.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
[Main?] Seaplane Service. And the other guy up there, he operated on a shoestring.
[laughs] But anyway, that—those were fun things.
SL:
Well, it sounds like we kind of picked your brain pretty well on the Museum, I think.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, everything was—everything we wanted to—wanted the Museum a go.
And I’m really proud. I’m really proud when I go around—I go around every day. I go
around and look at everything.
SL:
That’s really good.
PW:
And nowadays with the younger generations, they go by, they look at all this other stuff.
Well, I’ll tell—John Glenn, you know. I’ve told you about John Glenn. He and I used to
compete in tracks at the high school level, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
We were in the same area in Ohio. And I always tell you that—well, John, he beat me in
track, dashes. But when it come to pole vaulting, I beat him. And then in retaliation of
that, he joined the Astronaut Corps so he could get higher than I did. [laughs]
SL:
Exactly right. Oh, that’s good. That’s good.
PW:
So that’s why he became an astronaut.
SL:
There you go. Yeah. You pushed that. You caused that. Yeah. [laughs]
PW:
No, I [unintelligible 01:14:10] New Concord and—
SL:
Yeah. Yeah.
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PW:
I think I recall, if I got right, that—but we’d have a break in our events. We used to—he
had a grandmother lived right near there, right near the museum—I mean the college
there, and we’d go down there and eat her cookies and drink her milk. [laughter]
SL:
Nothing wrong with that. [unintelligible 01:14:44].
PW:
Yeah. It was just a little small town. But people seemed to get together then, you know.
Do things together.
SL:
Yeah. And that’s one of the things I think we try to do here, is—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
…get people together and talking about those times and learning history.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
And you’ve been a tremendous help for that.
PW:
Oh, I try. I don’t—
SL:
With this and with people.
PW:
Like I say, I don’t—I’m not double-jointed to pat myself on the back or anything like
that. Long as I can make something happen, that’s what I want.
SL:
Well, we definitely appreciate you here, that’s for sure.
PW:
Yeah. But right now I wondered where—what can I do to—beside going around talking
to people.
SL:
You’re doing it right now.
PW:
Yeah, I know, but—
SL:
You really are. This is something that we appreciate.
PW:
Yeah. But I hope it’s—I hope you really censor all this stuff. [laughter]
SL:
Not particularly, no.
PW:
Well, if I can get some—like some young kid that has an interest and coming in here, I
like to—I talk to him, so I—find out what his level, what the—what he knows and what
he, you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
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PW:
First thing I do when [unintelligible 01:16:13] the entry now, you know, you see old
Eddie Rickenbacker, the muddy boot on that tire, you know. Eddie, you’re not supposed
to do that. Now, Eddie and I flew together one time. And so that’s why I laugh—I pass it
on because some of the people don’t realize what I’m talking about.
SL:
No, I’m sure that’s very true.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But I’m saying—I said, “Now, look at that guy. He’s got his old,
muddy shoe on top of that airplane tire there, and he shouldn’t do that.” [laughs] Maybe it
might lead to something else on that—about that airplane.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So it’s trying to inspire.
PW:
And maybe something on what they’re doing—they shouldn’t do, you know.
SL:
That makes good sense, Paul. Yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. It’s all—but—
01:17:08
[Stories about local airports]
SL:
Well, I think we can probably kind of wrap it up for today.
PW:
Oh, fine.
SL:
If you’re good?
PW:
Yeah. Whatever.
SL:
And I want to see if there’s questions from anyone else that you had? Yeah.
KELCI HOPP:
You might have to repeat this. I don’t know. But yeah, we’re all so
interested in local history of all types.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Say it—I’m sorry.
SL:
Local history of all types.
KH:
Are we able—maybe you could tell us like a story or two about flying into any of the
local airports [unintelligible 01:17:37]?
PW:
Oh.
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SL:
Yeah.
KH:
Yeah.
PW:
Oh yeah.
KH:
You mentioned Tacoma Narrows, specifically.
PW:
Well, we got one airport we used to have over on Lake Washington there, you know.
There’s a—there was an airport down there where we waterskied from. Did you ever hear
about that? Right down on the—right on the edge of the water.
SL:
No.
PW:
The guy sold Mooneys down there. And the Mooney airplanes he sold, would you
believe it, they had Curtiss—not Curtiss—what’s that airplane engine now? What’s—but
they spun the prop by using prop—belt—fan belts like you use on your car for the water
pump.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And that’s what you use. What in the world. I had it on the tip of my tongue. Crossley.
SL:
Oh yeah. [unintelligible 01:18:39] the small Crossley cars.
PW:
Crossley engines, yeah. They had a Crossley engine there, and you spun the prop by
using fan belts like you use in your car for turning a generator or something. Oh, that’s
another thing we always did. We’d—you’re talking about modernization. We used to
have the wind generators we’d mounted on the struts, and you were flying along and it
spun the—which charged your battery. [laughs] You didn’t have generators on your
engines. You let the—you spun the prop on the generator in—on the strut to charge the
battery. Oh, okay. Now you have a—oh my God, now you got me talking. But, you
know, the old hog farm out in Maple Valley there.
SL:
I don’t. I’d love to hear about it. Yeah.
PW:
Well, it’s an old gravel pit, actually. And you go to land, you think you’re going to lose
the fabric on your airplane because—but what’s that lake out there? Lake Wilderness, is
it?
SL:
Lake Wilderness.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Right near there. And it’s a rock gravel, and you go to land in it and your
tires threw rocks and—
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SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Well, are there airports around here that you flew into that aren’t here anymore?
PW:
They’re all gone. [laughs] Well, yeah, you got—oh, you got one up north here, this—I
never flew in and out of it. I’ve been by it many times. But it’s up near Whidbey—not
Whidbey, but—
PEDER NELSON:
Vashon?
SL:
Yeah, Vashon or—
PW:
I’m trying to get—Monroe, up in that area, they had one in there and—by the lake. There
was a lake up there. Matter of fact, I have something of—all the old airports that used to
be around here. And I’ve been into a lot of them, like—let me think of some more.
SL:
Well, you mentioned the Federal Way one, down in that area.
PW:
Oh, the Federal Way one and the—now the Lake Washington one—one on Lake
Washington there, around the edge of the water. And, oh, remember one of the—my—
I’m searching my mind real quick here. The town lies south of Kent.
SL:
Um, is it the—
PW:
Don’t get lost now. [laughs]
SL:
The one by where Smith Dairy was? Or was—
PW:
Oh, Smith. Oh yeah. Ben. Oh yeah, that’s a story in itself. [laughs]
SL:
Let’s hear it. [laughs]
PW:
Old Ben, he had—his family was like into flying, you know. And yeah, Ben built that
up—that airport. Or the family did, because they all liked to fly. And anyway, they had
the old wooden hangars across from it, if you can remember or ever seen them. But it was
a decrepit place. I rented one of them and—anyway, let’s get back to the airport. So
where we had the—the point of land/take off, he decided he needed more cattle feed. So
he plowed it up and planted corn in it. And so he said, “If you guys want,” he says, “you
can still keep your hangars and everything, but you have to land and take off on the taxi
strips.” And some of the taxi strips were, oh, probably as much as ten feet wide. [laughs]
SL:
Oh, geez. Pretty narrow. Pretty narrow.
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PW:
No, it—they were very narrow. Very narrow. That was a taxi strip. So you’d land and
take off on the taxi strips. And then those swallows. Oh my God. I had a Stinson, and I’d
have to shoe them out of the wings and everything. And you got your intakes. You know,
they like to come in there, especially if you’re flying to come in, put your airplane, then
your cylinders are nice and warm, and they’d like to build a nest right on top of the
cylinders. And so you got—that’s one of your pre-flights, was wondering did you take
the nests all out. [laughter]
SL:
Oh, geez.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And that—Auburn is the name of the bridge I skipped over a bit ago.
SL:
That’s what you were thinking of. Okay.
PW:
Okay. But we used to have an airport on top of the hill there. Al [Nichols?] was—him
and—oh, I know that guy pretty good. But they had the airport up at the top of the hill.
And on Indian land.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
I didn’t know about that.
PW:
Then they finally got—the Indians wanted their land back, so they had to go relocate
again. So they went over into Covington.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
That the—Al and his buddy—
SL:
Is that where Crest Airport came from then?
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. And that’s where the—the little mound at one end of the runway,
you know. You’d have to clear it. And [unintelligible 01:24:45] right there, too, by—and
it made a nice place to land and take off, too. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, it would have been.
PW:
It did. Oh, I’d fly in and out there many times.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Nobody ever—you’re looking around and nothing around. So, okay, go down in this nice
smooth place. I’m going to go down there and shoot a few landings. [laughter] But yeah,
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that’s Crest. And oh God, let me see. But anyway, getting back, that’s—then Al and his
friend, they built the one on Covington now, the airport there. They built—they
developed that, built that up. And they had old school buses, and they used to—all the
stuff they collected were stored in school buses on the airport. And the storage for that.
And then eventually they started building some few little hangars around there and all
that.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I believe his daughter owns it now.
PW:
Huh?
SL:
I think his daughter owns the airport now.
PW:
But, you know, Al married Ben Smith’s daughter. Yeah. [laughs] And that’s where they
got a lot of footing, you know. I don’t think Al had that kind of money, but he had some.
But he had the desire. So Ben—the family backed him up, and he married Ben Smith’s
daughter. And I’m trying to think—Ben’s son. He had Renton Aviation.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Down where the Boeing Flying Club is now and all that. Yeah, he owned that down
there. And I flew out there. I got my commercial rating from them guys down there.
[laughs] Oh, that’s another story. But anyway, the—but that was a—but I’m thinking—
I’m drifting on this because Al [unintelligible 01:27:15], this is where he bought the farm.
He took off one day. And I think he had a PT-19, and he crashed it on takeoff, I think.
SL:
Down in Auburn?
PW:
No, at Crest.
SL:
At Crest.
PW:
Yeah. In the beginning. Yeah. And a fellow that he—partner there—I know him. I
can’t—names—my whirly-gig up here needs to reminisce a little bit. But anyway, that’s
Al’s partner up there. He had a beautiful airplane, polished up real good and—but
anyway, I wonder whatever happened to him. But Al crashed and bought the farm there
off the north end of the airport there. And I still remember because that little high-rise of
mountain—or hill coming into the airport, you had to turn to get around it, approach it.
SL:
It’s known as kind of an awkward airport to get into, yes.
PW:
Yeah. But it’s very easy to do. You just keep your head and know what’s going on. You
have to look out. Use the Mark Eight. [adjusts glasses and laughs] You ever hear that
expression?
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SL:
I have heard that before, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. Use the Mark Eight. [adjusts glasses]
SL:
Explain that, if you would.
PW:
Well, it’s your eyeballs. That’s what we used to call them. “Look out. You know, get
your head out of the cockpit, and look where you are, you know.” And then down in—
now Kent developed—when it went on down to Auburn, we built that plane—us people
in Kent Airport at Ben’s place. We were all kind of got back behind the—that
development and—but we had a lot of people help. Now they’ve got a racetrack. [laughs]
SL:
Right. Yeah.
PW:
Right beside it—no, parallel, but—that was something, because a lot of people flying out
of the Boeing Field and general aviation guys, they—sometimes I wonder about them.
Because they’d fly around, they’d be going heading south, they’d tend to fly over our
field there. And one day, one guy got—this is all [unintelligible 01:30:19] you’re just like
here. But anyway, this one guy came in there. He cut me right out of the downwind leg. I
was getting in for landing, and he just cut me out of the pattern.
And so I let him go ahead, moved over, let him do his thing. And I said—so he landed
and I landed right back—right behind him. I didn’t want to lose him. I just landed right
behind him. And I see him taxi over to one of the hangars, getting ready to go out there.
And we—how the conversation went. Oh, okay, well, I followed him in there, and he
looked at me because he thought I was too close to him. I says, “I didn’t want to lose you.
I have information for you.” And, “What’s that?” I says, “Do you know where you just
came in from?” “Yeah.” And I says, “Do you know what you just did?” “Yeah.” And I
says, “Well…” So somehow or other, there’s an opening. He says, “Well, I radioed that I
was coming in for a landing.” I says, “Yeah. What if a guy don’t have a radio to hear
you?” I said, “Use your head.” And I followed him right in there. So I—in the
conversation, I says, “Well, you radioed that you were coming in, but I think you’d be
safer if you take that radio out of your airplane, throw it over in the field somewhere, and
start using your eyeball.” [laughter] I said, “You’re going to live longer.” And I think I
made a point with him.
SL:
Good. Yeah. Yeah.
PW:
But that was kind of a raceway there. They’d come out of Boeing Field or north end
and—we had another airport up above Juanita or Kenmore up in the hillside there. Yeah,
we had another airport up there. And what—that’s a per—the guy, the—Renton Airport
there had general aviation repair shop. Ed—I can’t remember what his name is. Well,
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anyway, he was the maintenance guy up there. I used to fly up there and take people in
there and get them to come up and use the field. But they soon developed into houses.
They took the airport out and they made houses out of them. And Ed—Port Orchard
Airport, what a difference that was and what it used to be. [laughs] And, oh, I’d have to
sit down and think long to tell you the number of airports we had there. But they
weren’t—
SL:
Speaking of a few—
PW:
The ones I’m talking about, they weren’t really developed into anything big because of
the—of all the modernization going on.
SL:
Most of them became houses, probably. Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. Then they had—then they come out with all kinds of electronics and all of this
now, and so everybody flies by pushing a button now. And they—
SL:
That’s quite true.
PW:
We got a good example of that right now on our 737. And I—this is something else, but I
recall—when I heard it, that they had blamed something with autopilot. But you got a
[unintelligible 01:34:23] angle-of-attack indicator out here. You can [unintelligible
01:34:26] know what it’s for and what it—but the—it affects the autopilot in a way. I
flew a—this Dash 80 you see around here. I flew that from California clear up to
Portland, Oregon, and my autopilot was out. And that’s why I was flying. And I didn’t
see nothing wrong to flying—I flew the airplane. I just flew the airplane. And Lew
Wallick [S. L. “Lew” Wallick], he gave me a real about two-minute check-out. [laughter]
Yeah, he knew I flew.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And so we knew the autopilot was bad, and we had a little—we didn’t do something right
to begin with. It’s all right, but we filed inflight or—and so while the other guy, the
copilot, whoever it was that day, was doing the inflight. Then I was nominated to go up
there and take us home. That [unintelligible 01:35:38]. [laughter] So anyway, that—I—
my mind was taking off on a tangent there. But when I heard this going on now, how
could that happen? You—a person has to feel something. My—why is all of this going
on? Why did—you know, it’s hard for me to understand.
SL:
It is. Yes, I agree.
PW:
Because you’re—first you’re a pilot. You’re not going—you’re not on a Sunday drive
somewhere. You’re drive—you’ve got people with you and all that. You’re responsible,
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so know your airplane. And so what, something didn’t work properly. Well, correct for it.
Disengage it. Dismantle it. So like I say, came all the way from California clear into
Portland, Oregon. My autopilot was out all the way. And I found that the trim wheel was
very nice.
SL:
It worked just fine, yeah?
PW:
Yeah. Real easy. Now, maybe a trim wheel went out, too. I don’t know. Did they sheer
the shaft on it or something? [laughs]
SL:
Yeah, I don’t know.
PW:
No, I don’t know the whole story. But I shouldn’t even talk about this because it’s—I
don’t know the whole story. Because the smart—the push-button flying nowadays. Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. We’ll find out the story on that, but you’re right. There’s so
much of flying is automated now, yes.
PW:
Yeah, it’s—but you don’t—how could they enjoy flying?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
How can they enjoy it? Enjoying is you’re in control of something that’s going to where
you want it to go. And your car, if your car was going down the road and you—and your
engine dropped out on the ground or something, what do you do? [laughter]
01:37:54
[Closing thoughts]
KH:
I think [unintelligible 01:37:55] good to wrap up on the question like we had ended with
last time.
PW:
I’m sorry. I got off on a tangent.
KH:
[unintelligible 01:38:00]. Now that we’ve talked about modernization and the Museum
and all that good stuff, maybe we could chat a little—or at least have you chat a little bit
about what you’d like to leave someone with after having viewed your oral history again,
now that we’ve done the second session.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I would just like to—my—like my position in there in the Museum, I’ve wanted
[unintelligible 01:38:27] this is the real world. This is how it was. This is how—this
going at—how we’re doing it and be conscious of what’s going on around you.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Nothing—it’s not push button. Get rid of the—if you got one, throw it in the seat behind
somewhere. But use your head. That’s—know what you’re going to do. Don’t just say
it’s another piece of equipment, fancy stuff to play games on, like Pac-Man or something.
This is not Pac-Man. This is flying. [laughs] That’s what—know—God gave us that, you
know. Let us do what we’re doing. Let’s don’t play games with it.
But, of course, modernization, I mean, we have people, but we’re all standing around
letting somebody do something for us. Do something for yourself. And he gave you—
gave you the air. He gave you the airplane. Now fly it. [laughter] Don’t depend on
somebody else to do it totally. First of all, if you’re up to that high [unintelligible
01:39:56] you’re, in a commercial sense, a pilot, you’re in charge of something. Be aware
of what you got a hold of and keep on. Don’t just say, “Oh, I think it will.” Make it do it.
Oh, maybe I shouldn’t even talk that way, but—because I don’t know everything. But I
know a little bit about a lot of things, though. Safety is one thing, and that’s number one
if you’re off the ground.
But anyway, I have a question as far as the Museum goes. This FM-2 we have down
there, I’ve heard all kinds of things. People says that’s the one that was up on the field.
That—I don’t—I doubt that. But—because I look it over, and it’s not the same way. I
know that spinner on the prop was not the one I put on there, but—and I don’t see—I
can’t see my Bondo patches all over the place there.
SL:
Nope, those are gone.
PW:
But what happened?
SL:
Well, it—the first restoration you did—and you’re right, it went to Spokane after that.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
After that, it went to Long Island, New York to the Cradle of Aviation, and then some
restoration was done there.
PW:
Oh, okay. I didn’t know that part.
SL:
And then it came back here, and it was completely re-done starting in 2002. The places
where the Bondo was, they took the skin off. They replaced the skin.
PW:
Oh, that’s a lot.
SL:
So they replaced virtually everything on that aircraft.
PW:
That’s right. You had to buy a whole new fuselage.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Yeah. They re-built it.
PW:
Yeah. Oh—
SL:
There were two different men in charge of it. Tom Cathcart, who was our Restorations
Manager, was the one overall in charge of it. So I guess—we have some fabulous
pictures of it.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. Okay. But I mean, I didn’t—I couldn’t put my—
SL:
Oh, it’s definitely different than what you remember.
PW:
Yeah. Because I seen it when it was new.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And then I seen it when it was damaged, beat up. And I tried to get it back as near new as
I could.
SL:
Oh yeah. Given the time, you did a wonderful job.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
No doubt about it. You bet.
PW:
But—and then my old billfold was pretty skinny, too. [laughter] Because we had no
means. We had no budget. We had no monies.
SL:
Oh, I understand that, Paul, for sure.
PW:
But anyway that’s—but we got it. We got—
SL:
That’s right.
PW:
We may not have the original, but it got close to it, though.
SL:
You bet.
PW:
We got an FM-2.
SL:
That’s right. That’s right.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But the trying to make it look like an F4F now, that’s something
else. But I—now, this is just between us, but an 1820 engine, electric prop on it, that
makes it—and then motor on the front end, they—it somehow or other—it’s hard for me
to—but we’ve said something, but they’re making it look like an F4F instead of an FM.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
That, I wouldn’t know. I don’t have that expertise. [laughs]
PW:
Oh, yes. No, but all the FMs that I have ever been in contact were with hydromatic props,
not electric props. But the F4Fs, we had electric props, all of them.
SL:
Okay. Yeah, that’s something I wouldn’t—
PW:
But when the FMs were [unintelligible 01:44:18], they got—we changed the engine,
1820s, then put on. Then we had the hydromatic props in there and—but somehow or
other, I can’t find a key to find out—it’s nice for museum. I don’t think many people will
know about that except me.
SL:
That’s probably right. [laughs]
PW:
But that is not the airplane that I worked on. But it’s nice. And the paint job is definitely
not the airplane that I worked on.
SL:
No. Mm-mmm [negative].
PW:
But that’s all right because that is a later version. That paint job come out many years
after—all of them. They—that was out several years after this, you know, before that
color—that [paint job?] was done, that—what’d they call—they called that gray—blackgray? Gray-black or—[laughs].
SL:
Yeah, I don’t know. That’s—yeah.
PW:
Oh, okay. No, no, don’t—I’m not—
SL:
Yep.
PW:
Now, I’ve got to be quiet. I’m not degrading anything.
SL:
No.
PW:
I’m just—the transition. The—you know. But I got pictures showing the color and
everything on it.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And the only reason I put that—because I couldn’t get a hydromatic prop dome to put on
there. That’s why that’s on there. That was my fault. [laughter] I didn’t want to a bare
prop—bare shaft out. But the splines are the same. Both the engines. Everything’s the
same as far as—so it would work. But it never flew that way.
SL:
It didn’t fly that way, no. I understand what you’re saying, Paul.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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PW:
But it—don’t make a big thing out of it.
SL:
No, no.
PW:
Let’s get an F6 in now.
SL:
[laughs] I’d love to.
PW:
I—Bill Compton. Bill Compton is the guy who bought the F6.
SL:
That’s the name—oh, okay.
PW:
And I forget who in Alaska Airlines—one of the guys that fly—one of the top guys in
Alaska Airlines owned this. And Bill bought it from him. But he cracked it up down in
Oregon, and I don’t know where it went after that, you know, how bad it was and all that,
how torn up it was. But Jack Lenhardt, he’s got a big crop-dusting operation down there
in the valley in Willamette. And—
PEDER NELSON: Well, I think this is a good spot that we should just call it [unintelligible
01:47:26].
SL:
Yeah, I think we’re—
PW:
Hey. Hey, you guys, it’s time to go home.
SL:
It’s 2:00. Yeah, it’s time. [laughs]
PW:
No, I told you last time. Don’t get me started. I can’t—you can’t—
PN:
Well, thank you. Thank you, Paul.
KH:
Thanks, Paul.
SL:
Thank you very much, Paul.
PW:
Okay, well—
01:47:40
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Weaver_Paul_P2.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.</p>
<p>Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois). Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).</p>
<p>After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company. Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft, including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.</p>
<p>Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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OH_Weaver_Paul_P2
Title
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Paul Weaver oral history interview (Part 2 of 2)
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Paul L. Weaver and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, May 24, 2019. Part 2 of 2.
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
Coverage
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Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Aviation mechanics (Persons)
Boeing Company
Boeing Model 80A-1
Bowers (Peter M.) Fly Baby
Experimental Aircraft Association
General Motors (Eastern) FM-2 Wildcat
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation
United States. Navy
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 47 min., 40 sec.) : digital
Rights
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In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part two, he continues to discuss his involvement in the Pacific Northwest aviation scene during the 1950s and beyond. Topics discussed include his aircraft restoration work; his experiences with homebuilt aircraft and the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA); his memories of other aviation enthusiasts and notable events and locations; and his work with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF) and its successor, The Museum of Flight.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and involvement with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation -- Aircraft restoration work, part one -- Fly-in fundraiser for the Museum -- Aircraft restoration work, part two -- The Museum’s Boeing 80A-1 -- Aircraft mechanic experiences and local aviation stories -- Remembering Pete Bowers, other aviation enthusiasts, and early PNAHF days -- Stories about local airports -- Closing thoughts
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/9f45d26ee34563ee82ee8cf3a09eb108.mp4
8cd0fe9be1a975b500e29656395a3a58
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/754a8ab017fad2416c546fd4358439d7.pdf
b3502b4f209c3a0dc7abc66995450375
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Paul L. Weaver (Part 1 of 2)
Interviewed by: Steve Little
Date: March 11, 2019
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as
an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part one, he describes his military service with the U.S. Navy;
his career with the Boeing Company during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s; and his involvement in
the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He also shares stories about other aviation enthusiasts and
the early days of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight. Topics discussed include his World War II service aboard
the USS Lexington (CV-16); his flight demonstration and mechanic work at Boeing; and his
experiences maintaining, restoring, and building aircraft.
Biography:
Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the
Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and
Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at
Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.
Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after
transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois).
Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman
and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and
Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the
end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).
After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as
an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company.
Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft,
including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.
Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects
of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in
seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He
also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the
predecessor of The Museum of Flight.
As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Interviewer:
Steve Little worked in the finance and statistical analysis field for 38 years and retired from
General Electric Capital. He holds a degree in economics from the University of Colorado at
Boulder and is a licensed pilot. As of 2019, he is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and is the Vice Chair of the Docent Leadership Committee. He also volunteers for the
Museum Archives.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16) ......................................... 7
Early interest and experiences with aircraft .................................................................................. 10
Family background ....................................................................................................................... 14
Navy experiences, part one ........................................................................................................... 15
Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes............................... 17
Navy experiences, part two ........................................................................................................... 22
Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic .................................................... 25
Seaplane operations, part one ....................................................................................................... 28
Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts ............................................................ 30
Organizing a fly-in fundraiser ....................................................................................................... 33
Aircraft restoration work............................................................................................................... 35
Navy experiences, part three ......................................................................................................... 37
Story about Eddie Rickenbacker ................................................................................................... 41
Aircraft restoration and maintenance ............................................................................................ 41
Discussion of Boeing career, part one .......................................................................................... 50
Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa ................................................................................. 52
Flying boom program ................................................................................................................... 55
Discussion of Boeing career, part two .......................................................................................... 59
Seaplane operations, part two ....................................................................................................... 60
Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft .................................. 62
Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight ................................................................ 68
Closing thoughts ........................................................................................................................... 70
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Paul L. Weaver (Part 1 of 2)
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
STEVE LITTLE:
Greetings. My name is Steve Little, and we’re here at The Museum of
Flight in Washington, and it’s March 11th, 2019. We are here to interview Mr. Paul
Weaver. Paul is one of the original members of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical
Foundation, the predecessor to The Museum of Flight, and remains a volunteer to this
day, some 50 years later. He has had a wonderfully varied life, ranging in service in the
USS Lexington in World War II, CV-16, a long career with Boeing, restoring light
airplanes as an aircraft A&P, and a homebuilder of airplanes and, from what I remember,
maybe even a Fly Baby.
PAUL WEAVER:
Well, it was a—I’ve had a—what—a Volksplane. I helped old Pete
Bowers, I helped him on all of his airplanes.
SL:
Oh, okay. Very cool. I remember the Volksplanes.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Well, I really want to say thanks. We really appreciate your coming in and spending a
little time talking with us.
PW:
Thank you.
SL:
Great honor, great honor. No doubt. Let’s start a little bit about some background
information. I’d like you to state your full name, how you prefer it pronounced, and then
spell it for us.
PW:
My full name is Paul L. Weaver. And do you want—spell it?
SL:
If you would please.
PW:
Okay. P-A-U-L, then the middle initial’s L, and then the last is W-E-A-V-E-R.
SL:
Great, thank you. That gives us a tracking spot, so we know it’s correct.
PW:
I see.
SL:
When and where were you born?
PW:
I was born in a little town in Ohio that was made—makes ceramics.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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SL:
Interesting.
PW:
And I had quite a history in ceramics with—my great-grandfather was—his brother—not
great. Grandfather. His brother was—manufactured and developed Roseville Pottery,
which is still a collectible today after all of these years. And I used to throw against the
wall and break, but—throwing rocks at whatever. It was worth probably 50 bucks today.
[laughter]
SL:
Probably more than that. So was that the name of the town then, too, was Roseville?
PW:
The town was Roseville, Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, that’s just south of Zanesville about, oh, I’d say roughly 10 miles, probably less.
SL:
Okay. How long ago was that, if I may ask?
PW:
Oh, my God.
SL:
When were you born?
PW:
Is that my—oh, when was I born? Oh, now, that’s a hard question. It’s been so long ago,
I almost forgot. [laughter] No, I was born in 1922. And if you figure that up, you’ll see
I’ll be 97 years old.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That’s fabulous.
PW:
I usually tell everybody, though, I’m only 79.
SL:
[laughs] You started counting backwards a few years ago?
PW:
Well, I just turned my numbers around.
SL:
There you go. There you go. So did you grow up there then?
PW:
Oh yeah. That’s—yeah, I worked up—I was set up to be in the pottery business. I
eventually did but—started out with—I went—was going to go after—I was going to go
to Ohio State to be a ceramic engineer. That’s what—
SL:
Oh, interesting.
PW:
And then we came into a big squabble, you know, the World War II. That kind of
changed the plans, and so I was—in the meantime, prior to that, for a sideline I was into
radio. And how did that—get that into sequence here. But yeah, I was—in high school, I
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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had shortwave radio and all this sort of stuff, and I used to communicate with Batista in
Cuba, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Really?
00:04:16
[Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16)]
PW:
[laughs] And that’s long before all this happened. But after radio—oh yeah, while I was
in radio, the Merchant Marine Academy in Boston, Gallop Island, they had a Marine
college there for officers, and they had me down for a radio operator on one of the
Merchant ships.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And about that same time, the casualty rate was pretty high for Merchant ships off the
coast, and although we weren’t really in the war yet, so to speak, but they still were
sinking. So I gave that idea up, although I was still there. I left. So I called the
Commandant of the Ninth Naval District and told him the situation going on now, that I
was waiting for the—my appointment at the college and that—so perhaps they’d like to
have me come into the Navy, because I had to be in reserve status in order to even start
going to college there.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so I—now, let me see. Yeah, so I joined the Naval Reserve, and pretty soon the
Commandant sent me in the mail some tickets for food, some tickets for transportation,
and then told me to report to the Ninth Naval District in Great Lakes, Illinois, and that
they—Navy wanted me for a radioman.
SL:
Okay. This—what—would this had to have been—you would have been about 18, 20
years old?
PW:
This is right after college. I mean, right after high school.
SL:
Right after high school.
PW:
No, wait a minute. Excuse me.
SL:
So about 19—
PW:
It was slight—about 1940 time.
SL:
’40? Yeah.
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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PW:
1940 times. Uh-huh [affirmative]. But anyway, I was—but my training at Great Lakes
and all that, and I was put into an outgoing unit. OGU, they called it. And there, the
people were waiting for assignments. Meantime, I had became familiar with a lot—some
of the guys talking to them, and they were destined to go on an aircraft carrier. And I
said, “Well, that sounds interesting.” But I talked more and more with them and—
although I was supposed to be—I was a radioman and waiting for Chicago to accept me
there. And in the—then one day there was a manifest put up on the bulletin board for
people to go to this aircraft carrier. And then my buddy said I’d made—they were going
on. And so I went to the person that handled the manifest, and I told this guy, I says,
“You know, they forgot my name on that list.” And so I don’t think he knew too much
about his job in a way because—anyway, he put my name on the list. [laughs]
SL:
Just by telling him?
PW:
I just—because I had friends that were going on an aircraft carrier, and I knew as much
about airplanes, I think, as they did, you know. Just casual. And so anyway, it worked
out.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I got—I went aboard this aircraft carrier. It was a new one, just built, and it was in
Boston. And it’s called—was the US Lexington, USS Lexington. This was the number
two Lexington because the first one was sunk in the Coral Sea. And so the number two,
the one I was on was named another—had another name. But since that was on the—
good propaganda, you know, we’d just make this Lexington II and fool everybody. Well,
it did, you know. [laughs]
SL:
Well, I see your hat says “Blue Ghost.” Was that part of the fooling it?
PW:
Yeah, that’s why—we came to—the Blue Ghost because we were reported so many times
of being sunk and—or damaged beyond, and we showed up again all over the place. And
so that’s how they got—think old Tokyo Rose really had something to do with that.
SL:
Oh, okay. So she’s talking about you guys?
PW:
Oh yeah. She couldn’t keep track of us because we were sunk, but we were on the news
the next day. [laughs] But that’s the way it was then and because everybody was grabbing
at something to talk about. And so anyway, and then we told them that—then I got
assigned to the carrier. And when I was on the carrier, why, there was all kinds of talk
about schools and things for aircraft. And so every time I applied for them, they says, no,
I didn’t—they didn’t want me to go to school because I had as much knowledge about
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airplanes as they had already, the people who were there. So I never got a school. Mine
was all—mine was all I developed myself.
SL:
Well, let’s talk a little about that. How did you get—was that when you were in high
school or younger or—
PW:
No, no, no. This is when I got aboard—my Navy time. This is Navy time. No, I
graduated in school in—when was it? 1940—yeah, 1941. And—no, these—oh, anyway,
I’m trying to get it all in my head right now. It’s been a few years ago. [laughs]
SL:
It’s been a couple. But I was thinking, what does a radioman really do? And how do you
take that radioman and make yourself an airplane mechanic?
PW:
That is your—it’s all you. I mean, I’ll attempt anything.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, what were you supposed to be doing as a radioman? What
would that be?
PW:
Aboard the ship—aboard ship in the radio room and doing—communicating from the
ship to shore and all that, or between ship or whatever. Same way with the Merchant
Marine. That’s what it was. And they had a lot of associated duties, too. But I was the—
that was what radio was. But after this time and training and meeting these guys on an
aircraft carrier, that sounded a hell of a lot better—interesting to me than sitting in a room
punching the key, you know, [mimics Morse code and laughs].
SL:
Do you still remember Morse code?
PW:
A little bit. [mimics Morse code and laughs] CQ, CQ. And then—but I don’t know too
many. But I had a very good buddy that was part of this. His name was Dick [Callahan?].
Dick and I were good buddies and—but he went—got called to college before I did, see.
And that got me—we separated. And from that point on, I thought, well, we should be
close together again. I thought we would. Well, we—to get onto something, my friend
Dick, he stayed with the Maritime.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And eventually, after he got out of the Maritime, then he was assigned to one of our
offshore—or—what does everybody call that now, where they—embassies.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
So he went to an embassy and—after he left the ship. And that’s all right. I went to my
carrier. [laughs] No, I—
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00:12:48
[Early interest and experiences with aircraft]
SL:
Yeah. Tell us a little about the carrier, yeah.
PW:
Yeah. That was—I’m talking about carrier. I’m talking about aircraft. My first things I
would like to mention, the fact that I talked to my dad years ago when I—we first—one
day, we’d seen something in the air flying by. It was an aerial plane. [laughter] And so
that intrigued me, watch him go through the sky like that. So I talked to my dad about it,
and he said, “Oh, you better forget that because there’s no room for you in there because
the pilot was heavy enough. They would—it would never get off the ground.” And so he
kind of discouraged me from getting in the airline part of it—or airplane line. Not
discouraged, but just make a comment.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But I still—and then [unintelligible 00:13:44]—further on. Well, in the—right after high
school, then I got—before—well, I was still waiting for Maritime duty to get me—call
me up. But I went to Wright-Patterson Field, and I worked on the B-18s.
SL:
Oh, you did?
PW:
Bombers. Yeah. I was a radioman on B-18s.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And that—then that job required me to rig up antennas and balance them out and all that
good stuff. But it wasn’t working on the airplane, although I was radioman on the
airplane. Radio electrician, they called it.
SL:
Okay. So you’re doing more than just the radio wiring. You’re taking care of—
PW:
Yeah, I did—yeah. I was going to be the whole darn thing associated with—but I didn’t
want—at that time, we had a lot of military—at Patterson Field, we had a lot of military
action going on, training and—because we were hurting for pilots and everything. And I
was hoping to get that—into that line. But I just never was able to swing it.
SL:
Had you flown before?
PW:
Oh, way, way back when—first flew in an old Piper plane. And where in the world was
that now?
SL:
Was that back at high school at that time?
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PW:
Well, no, just right out of the high school. I had a lot of things all bunched together, a lot
of things.
SL:
You really did.
PW:
Because I was searching for what I wanted to do for my life, you know. And I worked at
a place that made stringers for buildings, rafters at—up in Canton, Ohio. And in Canton,
Ohio, they had a little airport right there in town, so I used to go over there and take a ride
down then with them to kind of rekindle or keep that it my mind, the flying part.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And—oh, God. And then after—well, anyway, I’m getting back on track a little bit here.
SL:
Oh, this is fine.
PW:
It is. All right, fine.
SL:
This is very interesting.
PW:
You have to cut and edit this down.
SL:
No, this is—because I’m thinking the early flight experience, I’d like to hear a little more
about that.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, it wasn’t—well, the early flight experience is—the airplanes were flying
there. I think probably mail planes at that time, because this was just the beginning of
flight. Oh, if you want to back up just a little bit, while I was a junior—was it junior in
high school—I was selected to go to this school for government—of the state government
to—called boys’ something. I forget the name of it. But I’ll tell you about how the
operation [unintelligible 00:16:50] goes.
SL:
Yeah, I remember those.
PW:
Do you remember? Okay. Well, anyway, I was there and since I was—they all had me
down as a radioman all the time, so they put me with the radio department of the State
Patrol. And so then Governor John Bricker—and I knew a guy that knew him
[unintelligible 00:17:14] here with me now.
SL:
Oh, very cool.
PW:
Yeah, he knew John. But anyway, John appointed me—he put me—he made me an
honorary lieutenant in the Ohio State Patrol. I was still in high school. [laughter]
SL:
That’s wonderful.
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PW:
Yeah, it is. And so there again, I met another guy while I was there about the aviation
part of Ohio [unintelligible 00:17:46] that was going to get airplanes or something, the
National Guard. They had some old biplanes there they called the Air—the National
Guard. And old sticks and fabric and—
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah, that was all new then. Or that was the only thing. And so the office I was at was on
the airport at Columbus, Ohio, and that’s where they kept the airplanes, and I kept an eye
on them while I was over here doing this. [laughter] And I kept—and watched it going
on, and I thought, “That’s very interesting.” And that’s why in the background I kind of
fudged a little bit at my experience in aircraft, because I knew I wanted to go that way.
SL:
You bet. You had to push it somehow.
PW:
Yeah. And so anyway, that is—I’m trying to get an alignment here in my thoughts. But I
was with the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman, and that’s before—just while I was still in
high school—senior.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so aircraft has always been in my mind, even though my dad told me I’d never be
flying because I’d be too heavy. Because the pilot would be heavy enough, they
wouldn’t—I wouldn’t—
SL:
Well, in some of those early planes? Yeah.
PW:
Yeah. And he had it in his head that there was just room for a pilot.
SL:
Do you remember what the first plane was that you flew?
PW:
Well, probably an old Piper up at Canton, Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah. But I went—rode only as a passenger. I didn’t fly it. I was just getting familiar
with the aviation.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Sure.
PW:
But I enjoyed it. So like I say, let’s go back to where I went aboard the ship. And when
the officer in charge of the manifest, he put my name down there on—with the other guys
that I knew.
SL:
Right.
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PW:
And so they were all going on the carrier Lexington. And so off they went to Lexington,
and here I went right along with them. [laughter]
SL:
I’d love to know what happened on the other side of that where you were supposed to go.
PW:
Well, I don’t really want to know. But I often said to myself, “I wonder when—that
position that the Navy wanted me in, whatever happened when they called my name and I
wasn’t nowhere around?”
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But things were hectic at that time. The war effort or thing going on. And so they just had
billets to fill, and I happened to be a guy to fill a billet. And so as long as I could—knew
what I was going to do, wanted to do what I was going—want you to do, that was all
really required. As far as any formal training of any kind, I didn’t have anything, oh,
except stringing wires, antennas, and installing radio gear in B-18s.
SL:
You must have a marvelous mechanical aptitude then.
PW:
Yeah, you know, I did. I think I even surprised myself. [laughs] No, no, I had
confidence—have confidence in what you want to do. That’s the big thing, you know.
SL:
Was there someone at some point that was sort of a mentor to you to give you this level
of confidence?
PW:
No. Well, the—might—I can’t put it down, except I had a doctor that bought an airplane
in my—in an adjoining town, and so every time he’d go—they’d go out to go flying,
he’d—I think he was probably learning to fly it. But every time I’d hear that engine
running—it’s a small town, Roseville, and I could hear it. And I’d go over there however
I could. And occasionally I’d be allowed to wipe oil off the fuselage, and that was—I was
getting close to aviation.
SL:
Getting close. And it sounds like, even though your dad may have said—but he didn’t
discourage it?
PW:
No, it wasn’t—he didn’t really—he just gave me some negative thoughts, which I didn’t
accept.
SL:
Good. I’d say your method worked out pretty well.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, they—like I say, I was at Wright-Patterson—well, Patterson Field.
And, oh, one thing of humor there, but I was there when they landed the B-18. And—or,
no, not—yeah, with the B-18. It was a big, new bomber. And they taxied off the main
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runway and went all through the—broke up all the blacktop on the taxiways. [laughter]
But—no, not the 18—B-19s. Excuse me.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
B-19 was the newest one. I was working on the B-18s. But anyway, I got along. I’m a
person that if I want to do something I’ll make it happen.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It sounds like very much so, yes.
PW:
Because you have to be self-taught, lots of things you do, no matter what you do. But I
never did get to be my ceramic engineer. [laughter] But I don’t regret that at all because
the ceramic industry has now gone by the wayside almost, because there’s plastics and all
that and so many things made out of plastic.
00:24:05
[Family background]
SL:
If I may ask, what were your mom and dad’s names and what did they do?
PW:
Oh, my dad was named George Zane Weaver.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah. And my mother’s name was Hazel Jane Weaver.
SL:
Pretty name, pretty name. Yeah.
PW:
But that was in a little, small town. I think it was—if the dogs were all home, we would
probably at least have two thousand people. [laughter]
SL:
So did your dad work in the pottery business? Ceramics?
PW:
Oh, he was—his work—the family for generations were in ceramics.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And that was—my cousins and all that and uncles. They were all in the ceramic business.
SL:
Did you have brothers and sisters?
PW:
Yes. I ended up with two brothers and a sister, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Did they stay there and—
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PW:
Well, they all stayed around there pretty much. My sister married a person who was in
the ceramics—didn’t—wasn’t in it—he worked in ceramics.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And my brothers, they worked in ceramics.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But let’s see. Basically, that was it. That was their livelihood, is ceramics. Yeah.
SL:
So you were the one that went on and did something completely different?
PW:
Yeah, altogether different. Altogether different. I mean, I was intrigued by flying
airplanes and stuff, and I really wanted to be a pilot down deep. I really did. I think I
could have. But somehow or other, it just never—they’d rather have me take care of
them, get them so they’re back in the air again. [laughs]
SL:
Well, that’s pretty darn important.
PW:
Yes, it is.
SL:
It really is.
00:25:57
[Navy experiences, part one]
PW:
Yeah. But then after what I’m talking about, then I went aboard the Lexington.
SL:
Right. Let’s talk about that a little.
PW:
And then there in the Lexington, when the classes come up for different schools, I was—
I’m not bragging, but they always said, “Well, you know more than what they’ll teach
you there and we need you here on the carrier.”
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. So you were given the opportunity to do everything—
PW:
Yeah, that was—no, I never was given the class—school.
SL:
But you didn’t need it. They—you knew it.
PW:
No. And as a matter of fact, I pride the fact that they assigned me to the skipper of the
scouting squadron as his plane captain.
SL:
Oh, fascinating.
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PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
So the—
SL:
So as a plane captain, what kind of plane and what does that entail?
PW:
You take care of all of the problems that developed on the plane, whether—what it was,
you know. And you make—eyeball it all—every day. We used to say, “Mark Eights.”
[points to eyes and laughs] No, you maintained and had the airplane up and running as—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Whether it’s—Oh yeah, whether—whatever problems it has. Like one time, I got to—
they found metallurgy or something, that the keepers for the valve stems that goes up to
the cylinders, they were breaking and the engine would swallow a valve every once in a
while. So they had to get a whole new set of keepers, which was two.
SL:
On each side of the valve stem?
PW:
Yeah, on—and so one of my first big jobs is replacing all the keepers in the valve stems
and making sure that you don’t drop a valve into the cylinder. And you don’t take a
cylinder off [unintelligible 00:28:17]. You do it right on the plane.
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
Yeah, and you had to be thorough and cautious of what you’re going to do. So I did a lot
of that to help things go along.
SL:
Were there other people on the crew with you that were working on that airplane? Did
you have—
PW:
Oh, no. Well, only if something major comes along.
SL:
Okay. Otherwise, you’re it?
PW:
Oh yeah. He relies on me to do—make sure his airplane was in good shape.
SL:
That’s a tremendous responsibility.
PW:
Oh, it is. It was—especially since I was a radioman. [laughter]
SL:
You exceeded radioman a long time ago.
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PW:
But I always enjoyed whatever I was assigned. And, yeah. But anyway, that’s—then all
through the war and all that, and then after the war, after we got torpedoed—
SL:
Well, yeah. Let’s talk a little about that. That sounds pretty scary.
PW:
Well, you can’t do nothing about it. [laughs] No, if it’s not fixable, you can’t—
SL:
I take it you’re not a worrier.
PW:
No. No, I don’t, because there a reason something happens. And you don’t—that’s been
my life with the company I work—retired from. I gave—I got fantastic assignments, and
one of them I’m real proud of today. I’m going to step ahead here a little bit.
SL:
That’s fine.
00:29:55
[Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes]
PW:
The Dash-80, you know, [unintelligible 00:29:58], I flew that plane.
SL:
You did?
PW:
Yeah, I did, because Lew Wallick [S. L. “Lew” Wallick], who’s got a plane sitting down
on the floor now, Lew knew me and I knew him and he knew what I flew. So we headed
down to Los Angeles, demonstrating—selling the airplanes, 707s. See, this was in the
early days. And so the other pilot was out, and so [unintelligible 00:30:30] and Lew
Wallick for the crew. And so Lew asked [Hart?], he says, “Did you clear a flight plan for
us?” Well, it seems as though [Hart?] was too busy or something happened that we took
off ahead of time. So Lew told [Hart?], “Go file the flight plan.” So he—and says, “Paul,
come up here and take us home.” [laughs] It was like flying a Piper Cub.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
You know, it’s very, very easy to fly, you know.
SL:
Really?
PW:
And so anyway—and then I flew along. I even received the orders from Center telling me
altitudes and directions and all that stuff. And so after a few of them, Lew reached over
and pulled the armrest—his armrest up, turned around, and he says, “Perfect. Take us
home.” So I did. But when we come to Portland—then at Portland, he’d said to me, he
says something about—he says, “I don’t think the company would like you to land this
airplane.” [laughter]
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SL:
Probably not.
PW:
I’d never landed anything [unintelligible 00:31:41] in my life. But I could—I would’ve. I
would’ve because I knew what I was supposed to do.
SL:
So were you a salesman at that time for the Boeing Company?
PW:
I was what they call a—I was traveling around taking orders for the airplanes. No, I
wasn’t in sales. I was on the airplane. Flight demonstration, you might call it.
SL:
Ah, okay, okay.
PW:
And so that’s what—and—
SL:
So who are you demonstrating it to in Los Angeles?
PW:
Well, everybody. Howard Hughes.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I was his guest for over two weeks.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. And, oh, Howard, he treated us pretty good. He took me to the movie studio. And
there was a few of us, and he took us to the movie studio where he was filming. But I
needed a break, so I went into the coffee room. He says, “Go in there and have a cup of
coffee,” in the—where the actors and actresses sat. And so I went in and the chairs were
all filled—or the stools were all filled. And I stood behind a lady, and so she turned
around to me and says, “I’ll be through here in a minute. You can have my seat.” And
that was Eve Arden. [laughs]
SL:
Oh yeah. Our Miss Brooks.
PW:
Our Miss—so Eve got up and let me have her seat.
SL:
Oh, that’s cool. Wow.
PW:
Oh, it was fun. But anyway. Oh yeah, I remember—and these trips were fun things.
We’re getting away a little, but like Jerry Brown, you know. I mean, the old man and
Humphrey and all of them guys.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
We all swam together in the same pool and all this sort of—
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SL:
Was this at Howard Hughes’s—
PW:
This is—yeah, with Howard. [laughs] A guest of Howard Hughes.
SL:
That’s impressive.
PW:
Well, to me it was—I never thought it would happen, you know. But it was things in my
life, you know. Things in my life. And I could still see them and do them today like I did
then, really [unintelligible 00:34:04].
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And details and all. Like the Tar Pits that are on Los Angeles, you know. That was one of
the things. He had his chauffeurs take us to the Tar Pits. Boeing—as it was Boeing then,
you know. And so we landed there, and we taxied out to our—the plane—and there
was—the Boeings had their cars all for us and everything, you know. And so he wouldn’t
even let us get our car. He says, “I’ll have chauffeurs take you where you want to go.”
And he put us at the—uptown at Wilshire. He put us in a plush hotel. And so we didn’t
even see where Boeing had already assigned—and he says, “No, I’ll do it.” He says, “I’ll
call—I’ll make the calls.”
SL:
Wow.
PW:
So he put us in this big hotel, and everything was so—I’m not used to a life like this. And
there again, we met people in the music [unintelligible 00:35:29] industry—you know,
movies. And Phil Harris was a guitar player, you know. He’d seen what we—we had a
Howard Hughes account going on. So he come joined us, and so he—[laughter]. Now,
I’m talking just maybe three or four guys in all of this going on, you know. And it was
like a vacation you wouldn’t think you’d ever see.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
But you didn’t—you don’t take your billfold out of your pocket at all. Anything you
want, you just sign your name on it and put down 20% tip.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
Yeah, at that time, you—that’s—
SL:
That’s huge.
PW:
So because of this, all the people in the kitchen, waitress and all, knew we were going to
tip good, so they’d just bend over. You wanted a haircut. You’d go get a haircut. Just sign
your name and Howard took care of the bill. Boeing didn’t have to—so we were on a per
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diem-type thing with Boeing, and so the Boeing people rebelled a little bit about that
because we were being paid by Howard Hughes. We did not—and so they wanted to take
our per diem away from us because Howard was picking up—and so we got a little
rebelling going on like that. And we finally got our per diem, too, because we were
working for Boeing.
SL:
That’s right.
PW:
And so it didn’t hurt them any. They made it in sales of their airplanes anyway. But the
idea that Howard took care of everything. One time after one of the flights—Howard
always liked to eat peanuts, Planters Peanuts in a can. And so one time, he and his
crony—I forgot his name now. I’m sorry about that. But I dropped his name. But they
were conversing near the—where instrumentation and everything, and they had a can of
peanuts and they were both eating peanuts. He handed me the can of peanuts when he got
his, and he says, “Here, you finish them.” So, “Here, you finish them.” And I was the
only one in there, so he must have thought I was Mister Big Shot. [laughter]
SL:
You played the part very well, I’d say.
PW:
No, no, he was a very nice man. I have never—I hear all the stories, and I just can’t
believe it. I cannot believe that.
SL:
Because that’s not what he was like at the time. He was—
PW:
No. He was a very down-to-earth person and he conversed. Even some of his girlfriends
he brought on the airplane, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah, yeah. So he was—or you were selling him, so he was learning to fly the
airplane or—
PW:
Yeah. Oh, yes.
SL:
He flew it?
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah, he had—sometimes he had a little trouble. He would land and blow a tire
or two and—
SL:
[laughs] That’s a little trouble.
PW:
Yeah. And then one time he was up and he had the flaps down, and somehow or the
other, his excessive speed, he damaged the fore flaps on a couple of the flaps. So we had
to borrow his equipment in there in the shop. He had the—oh, TWA.
SL:
Right. Okay.
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PW:
Yeah. And so we had the full use of their TWA shops. And then we had to repair these
because—and they’re metal. Got the metal, and everything worked fine. We put it back
together, and it kept the airplane flying.
SL:
That’s impressive. [laughs]
PW:
No, it’s—do what you have to do to get the job done. And so we made him happy, kept
him out of the limelight too much about it, and so—but he—the airplane’s a little bit too
big and a little bit too fast at that time for him. I mean, he could handle fighters and all
that, but here he’s got more mass to handle, more things to do. And I could understand
that fully because I know aircraft flight. I’m a commercial pilot myself.
SL:
Oh, okay. Well, that’s interesting. Very cool.
PW:
Yeah. Because I wanted to be a commercial pilot.
SL:
So you finally got to fly?
PW:
I finally got it. I finally got it. And [unintelligible 00:40:43], more about me. But I was
going to go with the airlines. United Airlines, when they were downtown in Seattle, they
hired me to go to Denver and fly cargo planes from Denver to Chicago.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And this was after all this other stuff going on. But anyway, I came time to go, to get on a
plane to go to Denver for their introduction—or to be in the company, and I changed my
mind. I said, “No, I think I’m better off at Boeing.”
SL:
So they were trying to hire you away from Boeing?
PW:
They weren’t hiring—I was—my choice.
SL:
You were looking, yeah. Just to see.
PW:
Yeah, so that I could get another plateau of what I—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so I says, “No, no. Boeing treats me well, and I’m going to stay with them.” And so
therefore, that ended my air cargo business. Although I didn’t really want a truck driver’s
job anyway. [laughter]
SL:
I hadn’t heard it put that way before, but, yeah.
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PW:
Yeah, because all you do is land, they load you up with like a truck, and you fly away.
And then unload and load back up again. I says, “That’s a truck driver’s job.” I didn’t
want to be a truck driver.
SL:
Yeah. Could’ve done that a long time ago.
00:42:20
[Navy experiences, part two]
PW:
Oh, okay. I’m kind of getting things a little bit like this. But just me is what you want to
talk about.
SL:
Well, that’s exactly it. We want your experiences. And you were talking a little bit about
the Lexington and the war, so let’s transition maybe from the Lexington. How did you get
to Seattle and the Boeing Company and that whole time period in there?
PW:
Oh, okay. Let me go back to the Lexington thing.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
One time it was up around—and during the war now—we’d help and support all of the
islands out there and the invasions and getting it back. And we get into Kwajalein Island.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And one of them ornery guys put a torpedo in it. He shot us with a torpedo, and so we
had to go back into Honolulu to see—you know, reassess the damage and whatever. And
we found out we were—had too much damage for them to handle there in their dry
docks. And so the conclusion was, “You’re going to go have to Bremerton to get this
work done,” because it’s so big, you know.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
So anyway, this is—so we came to Bremerton, and we stayed there at Bremerton for
some time. And I didn’t have to go because I was what you might call an Airedale. I was
in the aviation. And that’s all—that’s regular black shoe or regular Navy for the work
they wanted. And so they sent me off to—over here to—oh, what is it called?
SL:
Oh, Sand Point? Sand Point Naval Air Station?
PW:
Oh, excuse me. Yeah, I was searching for the name. But that’s right, Sand Point. And so
they transferred me, and they sent the—the planes were all taken into California and—the
pilots to continue. And the crew I was with, we went into Sand Point. And while they’re
doing all this work repairing the airplanes, the—
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SL:
Yeah, the carrier. Yeah.
PW:
Carrier. Uh-huh [affirmative]. And let’s see. Boy, I’m unraveling a lot of stuff here.
[laughter]
SL:
Take your time.
PW:
Yeah. But anyway, it—after there—I went to Sand Point, and then at Sand Point the
aircraft carriers were repaired and they were ready to go back out again. Somehow or
other, somebody made an arrangement for me not to be on that carrier. So they kept me at
Sand Point.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
But that’s all right because—so from Sand Point, they organized some places they called
“casual groups” and—supporting aircraft squadrons. And not being a member of that
squadron, but you were—you had to take care of them, like you had to mother—be
mother to them. So the first thing I did, they sent me to, of all places, Quillayute. You
remember Quillayute up here?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
Okay. That used—they used to have that as an Army base, I think.
SL:
I never knew that.
PW:
Yeah, and—but an aircraft group. And I’m not sure of that, but they tell me that it was
Army. But anyway, Navy—Sand Point took it over, and they called it a “casual unit.”
And let’s see, what’s the number of that cas—well, I was out of Division 7, Casual 7.
And so we supported Quillayute.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so it was a small group of us, and we had—a little humor along with it. We had one
ruling, though, [unintelligible 00:46:40] trainees. They were all flying the F4Fs—or FMs,
at that time. And so they—one ruling was that you do not put ammunition in them
airplanes up there. You had to go down to Port Angeles and land, and then you put the
ammunition in. And then you had to come back to Port Angeles and—to take the
ammunition out before they come back to Quillayute, because they didn’t trust those
pilots. [laughs]
SL:
Really? [laughs]
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PW:
That was the word we had. They’re just learning. So when they had gunnery going on,
you just—you flew down to Sand Point, but the ammunition—then you did your gunnery
practice.
SL:
So gunnery practice was out over the Sound or something like that?
PW:
Yeah. Out in the ocean, yeah.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But some of the islands or little rocks they have out there. I wasn’t involved with that,
but—although we had a lot of tow targets, too. You’re towing the target, too.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But anyway, they—I’m getting back to lying again here. Anyway, the thing was out
there, we weren’t allowed to have any live ammunition in the guns at all to come back
into Quillayute.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. A populated area. I—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. So then after we got through with these training squadrons, they called me back to
Sand Point again, and then I was there for a while. And then pretty soon, they said they
wanted me over at Pasco, but that was a [unintelligible 00:48:28]. So off I went to Pasco.
[laughs] And so at Pasco—I don’t know whether my fun stuff should be included in this
or not, but—
SL:
Sure.
PW:
But I had the fortune of conning some of the top pilots to take me out in some of the Cubs
we had there for emergency out in the desert. And they always went along. They liked to
have a—shouldn’t be saying this, but they had—they would go to recreation and they’d
get a shotgun, and we’d go out and we’d—and they’d want to chase coyotes.
SL:
Sure. That was common.
PW:
Yeah. And so therefore—and therefore I got some more flying time.
SL:
So you get to fly while they’re—
PW:
So I get to fly and they get to shoot.
SL:
Yeah, they’ve got the door.
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PW:
They get to shoot coyotes. [laughter] And then I got to the point—the AT-6 was a bigger
airplane and everything. One day they put me under the hood, the hood that’s in the back
rear seat, and you fly on the instruments.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so this one pilot, he says, “Sorry.” He says, “Let me—let’s do a little roll.” And I
said, “Well, okay.” So I went into a roll. I turned the airplane up on its back like—with
my belly up, and all of a sudden the engine went [makes sounds effect]. And it stopped.
And I said, “You better take this thing over.” He laughed at me. And he—“Oh,” he says,
“that does that all the time.” Because the carburetor doesn’t have no—get no fuel in it
when it’s upside down. So this was just another little thing that happened. So that’s one
of the incidents that I remember about that. Oh, these are all memories I’m playing with
here now, you guys.
SL:
This is fun. I’m really enjoying listening to this.
PW:
Oh yeah. Well, I figured mine was—I always made life enjoyable. I always made—even
down here today, I enjoy getting these young men—kids, you know, and just to get their
attention and talk to them a little bit, you know. But anyway, they—after Moses Lake,
then—I think then the war ended in Europe. And then I got called back to Sand Point
because they didn’t need me anymore for any more training. And that’s where I was
when the Japanese surrendered.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
So I said, “Well, playday’s over.” But I gave you some Dash 80 stuff there, which came
after all what I’m talking about now.
SL:
Right. Yeah, that was kind of how you got here.
00:51:59
[Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic]
PW:
Yeah, and then I got here. But I got so many things that I’ve been so thankful for, but—at
Boeing here—
SL:
So you went from—Sand Point is where you ended up applying for the Boeing
Company?
PW:
Yeah. After I left Sand Point, then I went to Oregon to continue education again.
Because, see, all my—I’ve been self-taught all this time.
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SL:
Right.
PW:
And so I had a little bit of the GI Bill, and I was going to go to college down in Corvallis
and everything. And then that’s where I left and came back up to Seattle from Corvallis.
But I never did complete college because I didn’t really need it. So I did have enough
training that I got an A&P license, a government license, you know, and I got that while I
was in Corvallis.
SL:
Okay. So that’s where your—the A&P, that’s an airframe and powerplant—
PW:
That’s where that came into the picture.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Because—but that—at the time, that was a two-year course. We took—I was there for
one year, and the instructor called me aside, and he says, “You’re wasting your time,” to
me. He says, “How would you like to take a test—or examination?” And so I says, “Well,
you know me. And I know me. I don’t think I’ll have any problem.” Well, he says, “All
right. And then you—I’ll call the instructor—or examiner from out of Portland to come
down and you can take the test.” And I did, and he just signed me out right now. “You’re
an A&P.” You know what he said? “You’re wasting your time because you know
everything.” You have it in the Museum down here. You have here—what’s his name?
He’s out of Portland area, and he had a Great Lakes trainer. And anyway, I think the
Great Lakes trainer was logged in to a girlfriend. But anyway, he one day drove it
between two oak trees in—down in Willamette Valley somewhere. Out of the eight spars
on that thing, seven of them were broke.
SL:
Whoa.
PW:
And it didn’t have a tailwheel on it. It had just a metal skid to ride on. So that’s what I
did. I had to replace all the—not replace the spars. Had to repair the spars. You know, put
splices on them. And then I had to put a tailwheel on it, steerable tailwheel, which they
didn’t have on airplanes like that. And then it came to the fact that we needed to increase
the area of the elevator—or the—yeah, elevator and rudder, so we had—did all of that.
And then I had to go through all the sandbag testing and everything for the CEA, at that
time. So they bought it all. So the air—Johnny [White?] bought that airplane. And then
another thing about it, it had an old Cirrus engine in it. But with the Cirrus engine, you
had a bag full of rings, and those rings were to—were there either to put them in or take
them out to up—raise and lower the compression ratio.
SL:
Interesting. I’ve never heard that before.
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PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had to take all the hold-down bolts and lift them up, put the rings
under to raise and lower the—
SL:
I’ll be darned.
PW:
Well, see, Tex Rankin is who I’m trying to think of.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, he’s—got a write-up down there about him.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. But old Tex drove it in between two oak trees and caused all that
trouble. But anyway, Johnny bought this somehow or other from Tex’s girlfriend or
something, and so we restored that. We spent a lot of time on that. But when he got
through with it, it was really good. Old Johnny, he’d fly it all over. A lot of people
wanted it because it belonged to Tex Rankin. He was noted for that airplane.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And I don’t know where that airplane is, whether—it probably doesn’t exist anymore.
SL:
Probably not.
PW:
No. But then more aircraft stuff going down the line. Then I used to buy airplanes. If
somebody can’t—didn’t know what to do or anything. I was licensed by this time now,
and so I’d buy it. They didn’t want—they wanted—thought that, oh, there’s too much
damage. “I’ll buy it from you.” So that’s what I did. I’d buy—do you remember Sam
Younker? Had an auto dealership here in Renton?
SL:
Yes.
PW:
Well, he had an old high-wing, and he had broke his spar in that, and it was going to be—
it was going to cost him a lot of money to get it fixed. So I—“Sam,” I says, “Sam, I’ll
buy that from you.” “All right.” He wanted to get rid of it.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
He didn’t know anything about it.
SL:
Wasn’t doing any good for him. Yeah
PW:
So I gave him $200 for that airplane. [laughter] He says—he [unintelligible 00:58:03] get
rid of it. “I’ll give you $200.” And so I took it home, and I spliced the spar and repaired it
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back together, and then I took it—to come back to Renton with it again, and it was flying
out here. [laughs]
SL:
Yeah. Were you doing that—that’s after the war but before you started Boeing?
PW:
Yeah, that’s after the war. Yeah, I’m past the wartime now, see.
SL:
And before you were with Boeing. So you were doing this—
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Did you work for a company that way or was this—
PW:
No, no, no. I was learning—I was—no, I was teaching—learning—working myself.
SL:
Just do it yourself. Yeah.
00:58:37
[Seaplane operations, part one]
PW:
And, oh, I used to take seaplane operations on the Lake Union.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Oh yeah. Yeah. [Main?] Seaplane Service and all that. And let’s see. Lana Kurtzer, you
know, that—I used to—old [unintelligible 00:58:52] aircrafts he used to have them. I
didn’t work for him directly, Kurtzer, but I did work [Main?]—for [Main] Seaplane
Service.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And God, that’s another thing. [laughs]
SL:
I love your stories. There’s always something.
PW:
Always, always something. I’m always a busy person.
SL:
Yeah. But still—
PW:
And I’m always a busy person. Anyway, I never had a seaplane or anything at this time.
But—so while I was with [Main]—and I think—what’s his name? He was in Port
Angeles, and he had his operation up there, a seaplane service. Townsend or something
like that maybe?
SL:
I don’t know.
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PW:
But anyway, one time—he always parked his plane there where [unintelligible 00:59:48]
here. So I decided I want to be a floatplane pilot. So I talked to him, and I says, “Check
me out.” He was licensed to teach, you know, to qualify me. And so that was good. And
so one day, he was there and he says, “You want that—you want a seaplane rating?” I
says, “Yeah.” He says, “Well, come on. Jump in.” So we [unintelligible 01:00:14].
Aeroncas that they had there on floats. And so we went in and the first thing—first thing,
we taxied out and everything went fine. I was in control all this time, and taxied out.
[unintelligible 01:00:32] head north again. Or west. But anyway, he says to me, he says,
“I want a one-float takeoff.” And I said, “You do?” “Yep, I want to see how well you
know your airplane.” So—
SL:
I’ve never heard of that.
PW:
So, “Okay.” I rocked up on the one float and took off, and he liked that pretty good. And
he went out, and I made a few turns over the floating bridge [unintelligible 01:01:05],
come back, and I was getting ready to land. He says, “I want to see if you’re still—if you
know how to put a one-float landing.” “Well, we’ll find out.” [laughter]
SL:
Give it a try.
PW:
And so I did. I did a one-float landing. Oh, that was just probably less than a half hour,
and I made a one—so that was my test for seaplane rating: one-float takeoff and one-float
landing.
SL:
[laughs] I’ve never heard of either one of those. That’s impressive.
PW:
Well, he just wanted to see if I knew how to handle an airplane.
SL:
Right.
PW:
And, oh yeah, I had to do a little turn for short-lake takeoffs, too, over in—what is it? Tell
me that name of that lake over there.
SL:
Oh, on the eastern side?
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Sammamish?
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yes.
PW:
And so that was what everything was on. And, oh, later on, I had one of the guys, the
chief check pilot for Alaska Airlines, he has a 180 on his floats. I shouldn’t get this way
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yet. But anyway, one day we was out flying around. “How long you been flying?” I said,
“A long time on floats.” So he went to Sammamish. He says, “Show me a landing.” And
so I did, and I greased one and [makes sound effect], it was—and so I did that. He says,
“Well, I don’t—[unintelligible 01:02:52]. How long you been since you’ve done seaplane
flying?” “I don’t remember. Twenty years maybe.” And he says, “Well…” He says,
“Nothing wrong with that.” So he just requalified me as a seaplane. [laughter] No, they’re
very easy—they’re easy to fly. If you just use your head about what you want to do, do it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. You’re a very logical thinker, obviously.
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
You know what you’re doing and what you want.
01:03:22
[Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts]
PW:
If you want to do it, you’ll do it. And—okay. Then all this time going on, I don’t—maybe
I should knock this off a little bit, but—
SL:
No.
PW:
But anyway, so I’ve been around with Pete Bowers, you know, and all of his homebuilts
and all of that. And old Pete always called me to come take care of his airplane for him,
you know.
SL:
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
PW:
Yeah. And so he—Pete and I were on first-name basis.
SL:
Did you work with him at the Boeing Company?
PW:
At where?
SL:
At Boeing? Did you work with him there?
PW:
No, I didn’t. No, he was in Mahogany Row area.
SL:
[laughs] I take it that’s executive office territory?
PW:
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, but he—and Harl Brackin was here. Harl, I knew him real well, too.
I got a story with Harl, but I’ll tell you about it later. But anyway, but Pete, I used to take
care of his Fly Babies and all that.
SL:
Okay.
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PW:
And I got to tell you a little story about him right now, Pete Bowers. He was up to
Arlington, and he’d made a biplane out of a Fly Baby one day. And so I was sitting there,
and he says, “You want to sit in the center or what?” And, you know, Pete’s long-legged.
And anyway, that’s part of the story. And so I sat in there to check it out. He says, “Go
fly it.” “Pete, I just now got in it. I can’t even touch the rudder pedal.” [laughter] “Oh,
that’s all right.” So he took a helmet and [unintelligible 01:05:09] it over my head. He
says, “Go fly it.”
SL:
You don’t need the rudder pedals. [laughs]
PW:
Yeah. But it was—I had to go like this to reach it, you know. He’s a long-legged guy.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
One other time, Pete’s son—I don’t know where he is. I haven’t seen him for a long, long
time. But anyway, his son had his airplane, the Fly Baby, and landed in up at the
Snoqualmie Pass in the parking lot. He couldn’t get back in, you know, so he landed the
airplane on the parking lot at Snoqualmie Pass.
SL:
At Snoqualmie Pass.
PW:
So Pete came to me. “Oh,” he says, “I got to go get my airplane. That kid,” you know.
And I said, “Oh.” I took him to—there was a little emergency strip there right down
below Snoqualmie on the freeway. And anyway, so I took him up there so Pete could
retrieve his airplane. And so he got somebody there at the airport who hauled him up. So
he got the plane off before anybody really—
SL:
Even knew it was there.
PW:
Yeah. No, it was—nobody ever knew it happened. [laughter]
SL:
That’s great.
PW:
Maybe we shouldn’t talk about this kind of stuff.
SL:
No, no worries about that.
PW:
But my life has been full of stuff. I can’t even remember half of it. But anyway, Pete and
I used to—he had the one—the old Namu. You remember him talking about Namu? I
helped him on that. He wanted to make a Corsair out of it. [laughs]
SL:
Oh, did he really?
PW:
Oh yeah. Bent-wing.
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SL:
Yeah. We have lots of photos of it over here in these archives, so—
PW:
Have you? Yeah. I helped him with that. And there was always something going on. And
I was with Pete one time when we were—we went to Oshkosh together. And so you ever
hear of Dick VanGrunsven?
SL:
Yes, the RV Series.
PW:
Okay. Well, Dick, he lived in a tent with me. We was all back there to—Oshkosh
together. And this was when old Dick had just that one single-place airplane. And
anyway, it’s down sitting in the lobby at Oshkosh.
SL:
Oh, at Oshkosh. The RV-3.
PW:
Yeah. And so—but then some of the guys were there and we’re talking, you know. This
one guy was out there performing, so we egged old Dick and said, “Dick, what’s that guy
trying to do out there? Why don’t you go show him how?” So he went—you know, one
thing about Dick, he liked to put wheel pants on everything. And I kept thinking he’d get
mud in there and it would jam them up, but it didn’t. But anyway, we’d egged him on so
he would go out and chase this guy around on his tail all day. [laughter] And I don’t
know who it was now, but that was when he first started out with the RV-3, you know.
And then he—later on, he moved up and up and now, you know—
SL:
He’s got quite the factory now.
PW:
Yeah, he has got a factory. I haven’t been there since. Dick and I haven’t been together
for several years. He probably don’t even know me no more. He’s got a big factory man.
Who knows?
SL:
You’re pretty unforgettable. I’m sure he’d remember you. [laughs]
PW:
But anyway, he lived right—I was back there, and I had—let’s see. Yeah, I had a tent in
this station wagon. And I had another guy with me, too. So we pitched a tent out there at
a parking area by the airplanes. And some of the guys there would string a tarp over the
wing and then—and so that’s all they had at that time. And so it’s roughing it. And the
showers, oh, that’s a garden hose laying on the lawn—or on the grass, wherever the sun
would heat it up. That’s the hot water you’re going to get.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. But that’s all new now. It’s all so better.
SL:
Have you gone back to Oshkosh since then?
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PW:
About three or four years ago, I went.
SL:
Oh, recently. I’ve never been.
PW:
But not to see anything. But, I mean, just—I happened to be in Wisconsin, and I just—we
were trying to remember. And that’s where I said I’d seen the old RV-3 in the—right in
the lobby there, and I thought, “Oh, my God.” I said, “It’s got wheel pants and all.”
[laughs] But we had fun together. You know, we all talked the same language.
SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
And it was a lot of fun. And he knew Pete—him and Pete, they knew each other, too, real
good. And then I think—oh, we had some more people. There were two that we met.
Remember the—oh, what’s the name of this little car in here in the Museum?
SL:
Yeah, Molt Taylor.
PW:
Molt, yeah. Yeah, Molt had his plane back over there—Aerocar there. And he joined us
sometimes, you know.
SL:
That would have been really an interesting group.
PW:
Oh yeah, it is.
SL:
Fascinating.
PW:
And we were all for one thing and that’s to promote aviation.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
01:10:48
[Organizing a fly-in fundraiser]
PW:
And then in the meantime—well, let’s get back a little bit more and—where—fit in there
someplace. It seems as though—I’m piecing things together in my mind right now. Oh
yeah. Then one day, somebody said something to me about—I happened to see some
airplanes sitting in somebody’s front yard over at McMicken Heights. And I says, “Huh, I
wonder who that is—what they’re going to do with them.” But I found out it was
PNAHF. We didn’t have no place for anything. But this guy had—put these in his front
yard for storage.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
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PW:
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And yeah, so he had—this guy had—and then I—then I didn’t
know where they disappeared to, and we had a—I’m trying to figure out—I know we had
one airplane sitting up at the schoolyard in McMicken—White Center, is it?
SL:
Right. Okay, yep.
PW:
Yeah. And, oh, that’s another big story. I spent hours and hours on that. But anyway, we
still had this desire to have a museum. And then in the meantime, there’s all this going
on. We did everything we could to get it all together. And then somewhere in the long
line, then Harl started to get in there as part of it and—regarding the Museum, we were
raising money. We were getting money for this one here. And so I said, “Well, let’s have
a fly-in.” “What do you mean, fly-in?” Well, I says, “Well, Boeing’s got a big parking
lot. Let’s go—” That’s where these—was the 727 flight center. I says, “Let’s manage to
get that, borrow that for a while to have a fly-in.” And we did. Then somebody says on
up in the line, says, “Oh, no. It won’t work. It won’t work. Wrong time of the year and all
this.” I says, “Let me worry about that. We want a fly-in. We’ll have a fly-in.”
So I called my friends from Oregon that’s got—one that had a F-6 and another one had a
T-33 and another guy had another general aviation airplane. So I called them. “Oh yeah.”
But I says, “You’ll have to buy your own gas unless I can get some money for you.”
[laughter] So I didn’t want no—we wanted money for the—
SL:
Yeah, for this.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so I made them guys support themselves, but bring your
airplane up and show everybody. And you’d be surprised—and so in the meantime, we’d
accumulated some things here dedicated to the museum, and they sold them there at the
fly-in.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. And so then we worked—oh, we showed everybody. We had a crowd. Oh, I didn’t
realize it at that time that it was going to be so big, but here it was. So the guys, they flew
their airplanes for me and everything to make noise and—
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Get some attention.
PW:
And then Harl, he got somebody, managed to get some of the goodies out and sell them,
you know.
SL:
That’s very cool.
PW:
So when—so it wasn’t—as far as I know, it didn’t cost us anything for the space.
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SL:
For the space, yeah.
PW:
And so we had a fly-in, and people just came from all over. And I said, “You guys told
me it was impossible. I showed you. I did.” And so we had a—
SL:
That’s a great fundraiser, a fly-in fundraiser.
PW:
Yeah. And people dedicated for wanting to do something, you know.
01:15:17
[Aircraft restoration work]
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you work on—like on the Model 80 and restoring some of
that stuff?
PW:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was when we had it down—way down at the old sea
hangar on Sand Point.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, I volunteered down there to work—oh, that rust is something else.
God. I told you the thing could be on and on and on. Did you bring your lunch?
SL:
[laughs] Oh, this is wonderful.
PW:
But anyway—no, [unintelligible 01:15:53]. And then the old FM-2 at the same time in
that area, the kids just beat it to death up at this—
SL:
It was in a park, wasn’t it?
PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up at—up in—it was a city—a state—a city park, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
And anyway, the kids had broke all the glass inside and on the instruments and threw
rocks and dented the fuselages all up. I bet you—I bet a 100 pounds of putty to fill up the
dents.
SL:
Oh, wow.
PW:
You know, it did. But then I was a member of the Naval Reserve at the time, too, active
with that. And so I conned—not conned. I didn’t have to. But I had them—recruited them
to help me.
SL:
Sure. Talked them into it.
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PW:
And we tore that little FM all apart and tried to do things with it, make it presentable. I
got some good pictures. I should have brought them here. But even—I even had the old
Commandant of a Naval District here, the aviation part of it, even had him involved with
it. And I’ve got his picture in front of that old FM and [unintelligible 01:17:16] hangar in
Building 30 at Sand Point. And got a picture with him there shaking my hands and the
whole—[laughs].
SL:
Wow. You’ve got a history with this place.
PW:
Oh, I have. Well, from the very beginning, ever since I seen it in somebody’s front yard
sitting there getting rained on and all that stuff. I said, “No, we don’t want that to
happen.” And then, yeah. What’s another little fighter airplane we had here, the Navy?
SL:
The Corsair?
PW:
No, no, no. The other—it’s over on the other side of the road here. But anyway, we had
that one. It was—The Officer and a Gentleman [An Officer and a Gentleman], the movie.
SL:
Oh yeah. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Did you ever see that fighter plane they got there? That’s the one you got over in the
Museum.
SL:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
PW:
Yeah. But they wanted—the movie company wanted an airplane, because that was
supposed to have been a Naval Station.
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
And so, yeah, The Officer and a Gentleman. But anyway, through—not through me
personally, but through a connection, the agreement was, “Okay, you could use the
airplane for your show, but you have to repair—fix it up first.” And that’s how it got
fixed up there, and I think it’s still the same way today.
SL:
I didn’t know that.
PW:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh. [laughs] You dig it up and you’ll find out. But anyway, they
hauled that clear up there, and that’s where they made the movie The Officer and a
Gentleman. But that was your airplane that’s sitting in there over there right now. I told
the guy that the other day, something or other—kicking around. He didn’t know it either.
SL:
Well, these are fascinating histories, so that’s the thing I really enjoy.
PW:
It’s all—to me, I cherish every minute of it.
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SL:
That is so cool.
PW:
Because it’s creative. You know, bringing something back, something that people
shouldn’t forget.
SL:
Right. They shouldn’t forget it.
PW:
They shouldn’t forget it.
SL:
And you’re passing this on.
PW:
This takes a lot of work to do it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. It does.
01:19:29
[Navy experiences, part three]
PW:
Oh, God. But then I was up at Sand Point, like I say. I was there during the war for part
of the time, too, then—when I wasn’t at Bremerton—I mean—yeah, Bremerton, or out in
the Pacific getting torpedoed. [laughter]
SL:
Yeah, I’d rather not be the torpedoed guy. What was it like on the ship when it was
torpedoed? Was it—there a massive panic? Or what was that like?
PW:
Oh, there wasn’t a real big, loud explosion, so—but the ship just rumbled, you know,
around. You know, like you hit a cork in the water or something, you know, flopping
around. But anyway, during that torpedo—back to that story. That accident with that
torpedo in there, it froze the rudder at 27 degrees and it stayed there.
SL:
So you’re—
PW:
Yeah. And so we were out there in the middle of the ocean with submarines around and
everything, and the airplane—the carrier’s making circles.
SL:
Just going in circles.
PW:
And they—and so the crews down below had to jerry-rig something to get the rudder
back neutral to get us going again.
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
But, yeah. But that was a feeling that—I often think about that, that here we were—we’re
there damaged, going in circles, and we can’t do nothing about it.
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SL:
No.
PW:
There was no provisions to right it. But they incorporated something different after they
repaired it. There’s write-ups in the paper, in the magazine—not magazine, but history of
the Lexington, where the guys who’d lay on their belly and crawl around on there trying
to get the rudders straightened out.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Oh yeah, down in the—
SL:
Wow.
PW:
And yeah, we lost—let’s see. If I remember details—I know we only had one—there was
four fans back there.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
But we only had one useable. One, we lost one—propelled the whole thing—was gone,
and the other one—another one had the shaft bent on it.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Wow.
PW:
And—well, the other—two others had bent. But anyway, with the seagoing tug we got—
we did manage to get back into Bremerton. In the meantime, associated with this, that we
have—like a lot of times, we have emergency rations here around the ship, you know.
And anyway, when this torpedo hit, it went into one of our food lockers. And so therefore
we was short on food.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But we had plenty of bologna left, you know. You don’t—[laughter]. So we—oh, we did
all right, but it was always a laughable thing. “Well, we’ll go home on bologna.”
[laughter]
SL:
You’ll make it, yeah.
PW:
So that’s how we worked our way back into Bremerton, by the stores that was stored up,
which was for flight crews, mainly for flight rations.
SL:
Sure. Did the Lexington have catapults on it?
PW:
Oh, yes.
SL:
Okay. I don’t know that much about the ship.
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PW:
When I was on the Yorktown, I got to use them—one of them one time.
SL:
Oh yeah?
PW:
Yeah. That’s another story.
SL:
Well, that’s okay. [laughs] Why were you on the Yorktown?
PW:
Oh, I was on the Yorktown during the Berlin Crisis, you know. Or the—when Cuba sent
missiles over.
SL:
Oh yeah, in ‘62.
PW:
Yeah. They recalled me.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. And so at that time, I was an ECM radarman.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I got back into wires again.
SL:
Yeah, the electronic countermeasures. I’m back on the radio.
PW:
And so I was qualified for—and a seaplane rating and an aircrew rating and the whole bit
on electronics there again and—but I had my share of flying, too. [laughter]
SL:
What were you flying in that time?
PW:
S2Fs, twin-engine, you know. Tracker. Oh yeah. Oh, I got stories about that, too. They
were always trying to play games with me. So one time this one pilot was over there. I
was over in the copilot’s side. And I’d seen his arm—and I knew the panel. And so he
was talking to me like that, and he kept flicking this switch. And that was on a rudder
assist thing. And, you know, it has two rudders that they split.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And anyway, he wanted—he tried to foul me. And I kept—I could feel it, and I kept
compensating for it. He says, “Don’t you feel that?” I says, “What? Feel what?”
[laughter] So after a while of that, then I says, “Oh yeah. I know you were trying to play
games with me.”
SL:
And doing a pretty good job.
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PW:
But I didn’t—I could fly the airplane just as good as they could, although they were
designated pilots.
SL:
Yeah. They were technically qualified, but you were just as good.
PW:
One other time—I could tell you something else that’s not really supposed to be notable,
is the fact that during this time of Berlin Crisis over there, the—the Cuban Crisis, I mean.
We landed. We have to go back into Whidbey to debrief. Well, it so happened at this
time, I was in the copilot’s side and the skipper of the group was in the pilot’s side, who I
knew real good, too. And so the guy was [unintelligible 01:26:04] on the copilot’s
[post?]. He went back on my side, the ECM, and sat there and was napping or something.
And so it was time to come back in. Well, we come back in and landed, and the skipper
looked over at me and he said, “Oh.” He says, “Forgot all about you.” [laughter] So he
said, “Hey, you guys, I’m going to turn your airplane [unintelligible 01:26:28] so the
controller—control tower don’t see us, and you guys change back to your seats you’re
supposed to be in.” [laughter] But I think I always thought that was good to have
somebody that, should something happen, that they could be—they could be bailed out,
you know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, you’ve got backup.
PW:
Yeah, yeah.
SL:
Levels of—yeah—
PW:
I could land that plane. I could take it off. The whole bit. Matter of fact, this is another
story in a way. But at Sand Point, they have a compass rose, and every so often, you have
to go swing a compass to be sure. And that’s usually a pilot’s responsibility. I was no
pilot, but I had to do that a lot of times.
SL:
Because you’re taking the planes out.
PW:
Go to the compass rose and compensate for the compass. A lot of people had a lot of faith
in me, and I never let them down.
SL:
No, you never did. And so much of this self-taught early on.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. It’s want to do something. You can do anything you want, you know.
SL:
I love that attitude.
01:27:43
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[Story about Eddie Rickenbacker]
PW:
I didn’t tell you about old John Glenn yet, either.
SL:
Well, there’s another person you mentioned, too, when we—before we started, was Eddie
Rickenbacker.
PW:
Oh, Eddie. Oh yeah. Oh, Eddie—
SL:
Both of those would be—
PW:
He and I were on a demonstration flight for—we were selling Eastern Air Lines some
707s.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And so we were flying from Chicago coming back out to the coast. And so we landed—
and we had to land in Denver because of the bad weather. And so on the flight from
Chicago, Eddie had a nickel. It was kind of a new nickel, I think. But anyway, he put that
nickel on the tabletop and put it on edge, and we flew, and that nickel didn’t fall off
immediately. You know, it stayed up. But he says, “You can never do that with an old
prop plane.” [laughter]
But he was an Ohio boy just like I was. I mean, we weren’t on first-hand, you know,
buddy-buddy type thing, but just a coincidence and—but that’s my association with
Eddie. I always look in here where I walk in and I see these guys, old dirty, muddy boot
on top of that tire sitting there, you know. “Eddie, if you were here, I’d pound you.”
[laughter] That was in a World War I picture, you know.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s quite the picture.
01:29:25
[Aircraft restoration and maintenance]
PW:
But I’ll make a comment about that, that—“Eddie, you got your old, dirty foot on top of
that tire.” Oh, that’s another story in its way, you know. And it was interesting. But like I
said, to start all of this was the company, the Boeing Company. They had a lot of faith in
me. They asked me to do a lot of things, and I did it.
SL:
You did do a lot of things.
PW:
Like most all the airplanes, 737 on up to the 727, everything. I was in the proof loading a
lot of that, you know, putting them in and stretching them, bending, twisting, and all that
stuff.
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SL:
Okay. Did you work on the civilian side and the military side at Boeing? What other
planes did you work with?
PW:
No, not—on civilian. Civilian side. Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, one time we had—one of the KC-97s out here. It was Boeing’s.
SL:
This one?
PW:
I forget the name. What’s the name—
SL:
Stratofortress.
PW:
Huh?
SL:
Or the Stratocruiser, I mean.
PW:
Yeah. Well, oh, that’s another story. [laughter] But anyway, we had one, and somebody
landed it, and they damaged the wing. And we managed to get it back over to Renton,
and there—we changed one wing over in Renton.
SL:
Geez.
PW:
Yeah. See, I feel honored that I was called on to help so much in doing a lot of things.
SL:
And unusual things, it sounds like.
PW:
Yeah, unusual things. You know, but even on the B-52, you—[makes sound effect]. I
saved a lot of money on that. We needed to. But then I was on the 747 program up at
Everett, too, you know. I got a call from them—I was down here at the time. They called
me to come up there to help them. They got ten airplanes sitting on the ramp, and they
can’t be moved. They’re just not ready to deliver yet. And the program was pretty bad.
And so I got a call to come up there, and I did. And one of my first jobs every morning
was to go into the planning room, which is in the middle of the flight line out there where
the plane—and my job was to review all the panels to make sure that everything was in
there—should be in the right position to save time and money.
And one time, I found out there was—they were going to take the flaps off this airplane.
“What’s all that about?” “Well, because they have to go to the factory and be—some
work on them in there, and then they bring them back and reinstall them on the airplane.”
And, to me, that cost money. And so I went out there to survey. “What are you talking
about?” [unintelligible 01:32:29] factory I’d find out what they were doing.
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“[unintelligible 01:32:33]. We could do that right on the line. We don’t have to take the
flaps off.” And they didn’t take any flaps off after that.
SL:
You did. So you saved a bunch of money on that.
PW:
Oh, I did, because you had to reprogram all that stuff, plus the—maybe the handling and
damage that was going on and—Oh yeah. So this one group in there that was in—that
was their job. “I’m sorry, fellas. You don’t have a job anymore.” [laughs]
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
I saved—and then the same way with the fuel. You’re calibrating for fuel in the plane and
all that. I had that, too. Like I say, the company, I feel honored that they had so much
trust in me to do these kind of things.
SL:
They had a lot of trust, but that’s because you earned it.
PW:
Well… But I enjoyed it. I wanted—I didn’t mind it at all. You can—if you use your head,
there’s nothing impossible, you know, if you use your head. It’s just like we started out
talking about our museum here. I put a lot of money here. That old three-engine
[unintelligible 01:33:53] sitting in there, I put a lot of time in on that thing and
volunteered. I never did see the completion of it, only in here and so—but up to this
point. And then the—like the little FM, I did everything I could to get that FM
presentable. But I heard—somebody told me that eventually—there was somebody over
in—oh, excuse me. What’s the name of that—over in the border? Spokane. Yeah, that
there was some kind of arrangement where they would—
SL:
Where they finished it up or something over there?
PW:
Well, they were going to do something, but I’ve never seen it since. They’re trying to tell
me that one in there was it, and I said, “No, that is not the one.”
SL:
I thought it was.
PW:
No, it isn’t.
SL:
Really?
PW:
No, it isn’t. I know. Because I was involved with it from the very beginning when they
put it on the playfield up at White Center.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I’ve said—and then all the kids wrecked [unintelligible 01:35:10] it down, and I had
it all torn apart with my friends and puttied up everything.
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SL:
Yeah, yeah.
PW:
And so I—no, then they can’t sell me that that’s the same airplane. No. And to—partially
it looks like it because they put a prop dome on this one here. That’s the right one it
should be, but that prop, I didn’t have that prop. I didn’t have that dome—or that—you
know. I went to—what’s-his-name over on the other side of the river there had all kinds
of airplane parts and all that. I conned him out of getting a motor for the prop.
SL:
Oh, for the prop control.
PW:
So I fixed the blades up we could, fixed them up. And I put that on there just for
appearance only, and it wouldn’t—it wasn’t—it won’t fit, wouldn’t—but that isn’t on
there. This was a real motor in—on the blade.
SL:
Interesting. That’s very interesting. Oh, boy.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, I hope—I don’t mean to downgrade anybody, nobody at all.
SL:
No, no. No, no. Uh-uh [negative].
PW:
But everybody was doing their part trying to make things right.
SL:
That’s exactly right.
PW:
But like I say, I’m happy to see that airplane.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
Like that airplane and the F6Fs, which was preceded—or after, I mean, on the carrier
there. One of the interesting things there is—maybe something to listen to—is that one of
my jobs was checking airplanes. When they got out of battle and everything and they
come back, you got bullet holes around there and all in the airplanes.
SL:
Right. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Well, rather than taking—trying to take the whole unit off and have it repaired, I took
some dope and made myself some little patches.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And I started making little patches and putting them on the part of the tail—the
tailfeathers and all of that.
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SL:
Right.
PW:
Anywhere. Yeah, I just patched it up like it was new again. So, I mean, we didn’t have to
[unintelligible 01:37:26] nothing. Patch that baby and go.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. [unintelligible 01:37:30].
PW:
And I did that a lot of times.
SL:
Wow. What plane were you in charge of on the Lexington? What was the—
PW:
SBDs.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
Yeah, yeah. And so Admiral Weymouth [Ralph Weymouth] was the skipper of that
group, and he was from Annapolis. And he was quite active and noted there, too. Because
I was back there—I’d go to Annapolis when I was in the area. But anyway, Admiral
Weymouth and—but he was just Lieutenant Weymouth when I knew him, when we were
working after—
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Interesting.
PW:
So we’d patch—you know, that was part of it. When the airplane would come back, I’d
go around and look and find bullet holes and patch—put patch on them.
SL:
Quickly patch them up. Yeah.
PW:
And make sure no structure was damaged and send them on. What the heck. One other
time—one time, they got a TBF come in.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Those are big airplanes.
PW:
Well, it was probably a TBM, but [unintelligible 01:38:37] looks the same. But anyway,
the gun got off-sync and shot a hole right through one of the blades and the prop and
was—we needed our planes. We were in a bad shape to fulfill our missions. And so I just
smoothed it up real good as much as I could, and it was a little vibration but not bad.
SL:
But not bad.
PW:
But for what we needed, we needed it. So we flew that until we had time to change the
prop.
SL:
Wow.
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PW:
Well, you know, because—you see, you needed to fix it to make it—so I did. I smoothed
it.
SL:
You did what you had to do.
PW:
I had to do—did what I had to do. And so many people were—but there was always
somebody, somehow—I don’t know what their life was like before they went aboard. But
if you’ve got something—need it, fix it. And that’s what I did. I did—smoothed the prop
up, painted it black again. It whistled a little bit. [laughter]
SL:
That’d scare the guy on the ground—you’re coming after. What the heck?
PW:
Oh, that’s another story. [laughter] Now, I got a true—these are true stories. And anyway,
I’m not making them up. They’re true. Like you were saying something about scaring a
guy. This one guy there in the rear seat, gunner on the SBD, he came back in one day and
he went like this. I said, “What’s going on?” And he says, “Oh,” he says, “I had this Jap
bearing down on us here.” And he says, “I had my gun stowed and they weren’t available
to me.” He says, “The only thing I had—because I had a camera with me for—,” to get
some pictures of what the damage could do and all this. And he says, “I just put my
camera up and pointed it at him.” He says, “He peeled off and left us.” [laughter] Yeah,
that’s a true story.
SL:
That’s cool.
PW:
He says, “The only I could do is point my camera at him and hope that he’s scared.” And
he says, “I did.”
SL:
And it worked.
PW:
He said, “We peeled off and we came home safe.” [laughter]
[production talk]
PW:
No, what I’m saying is truth all the way through. There’s no make up on it at all. But I
enjoy what I did. I did a lot of things. I feel that—like Boeing’s with their refueling
system here. We had one of them on the KC-97 one time and mounted. It was—take the
hinges off the doors back there and put this thing back up there. We made a tanker out of
it. [takes a bottle of water] Oh, thank you. Oh yeah. That’s right. I was going to get a cup
of coffee.
[production talk]
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PW:
No, but I said in the beginning, guys, that I’ve enjoyed life. Life was very interesting to
me. And I feel so confident or—that people who relied on me to help to do things and I’d
do them, that it was—they had a lot of faith in me, and I had faith that I could do it.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
But did you ever hear the old Boeing B-17 has got five engines?
SL:
You worked on the one with—
PW:
Five-engine job.
SL:
With the one in the nose?
PW:
Up in the hangar—Hangar One.
SL:
Yeah.
[production talk]
SL:
Well, yeah, because that was a test bed, right?
PW:
Yeah. That was a test bed for triple-prop engines.
SL:
For trip—okay. And you worked on that?
PW:
Yeah. I built—I put it on there.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. I was up there. We put the airplane right in what used to be Hanger Two up here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Okay. That’s what it was. And—yeah.
SL:
So when you put something like that on, are you then flying in the aircraft as well?
PW:
No, not—no, no, no. But just—this was something the customer wanted. At the same
time—maybe you did know it, maybe you don’t. But you know our Alaskan Airlines
here?
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
I worked on an Alaskan Airline airplane right in Hangar One up there.
SL:
Really?
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PW:
Yeah, and we maintained them there while—they’d bring them back from hauling coal
during the Berlin thing, and they’d have some of their airplanes—as a matter of fact, I
think it might be the ones hanging up in there.
SL:
Really?
PW:
I don’t know that. I have to double check that. You would be in more position. And,
yeah, we used to have—they had two airplanes. They had a DC-4 like that, and the—and
then the C-47—46. 46, I think it was.
SL:
46s they were running?
PW:
Yeah. Huh?
SL:
That’s a little unusual, I think, compared to the 47s.
PW:
No, that was the only one—Alaska Airlines, as far as I know, that’s the only two
airplanes they had.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And I worked on both up off of Hanger One. Matter of fact, one of the guys that worked
up there with me, Smokey Stover—
SL:
I know that name.
PW:
Yeah. Well, anyway, he was in the crew. So when we—they—Alaska took their planes
back up to—north here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
The airplanes that are flying off there now. Give me a city—town.
SL:
Everett.
PW:
Well, it’s Everett, but the field.
SL:
Oh, Paine Field.
PW:
Paine Field, yeah. Okay. Well, Alaska, they had a hangar at Paine Field.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Okay. So they took their planes back to Paine Field. See, Alaska Airlines didn’t have no
money, so we were kind of helping them in a way here at Boeing.
SL:
Oh, that’s cool.
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PW:
Yeah. And so we maintained a lot of their airplanes for them, you know. Those two
airplanes. We didn’t do a lot—big work. We did a little bit to help them. But anyway,
yeah, old Smokey, he was on the crew with us. So when they—they tried to get a bunch
of us to come up to Paine Field with them. And, no, I didn’t want to go do that, so I
stayed here. But Smokey, he went with them up—
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so he was a Boeing employee, but he went up there to help them.
SL:
To help them out.
PW:
When they went back to Paine Field.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, I think the original hangar is still up there.
PW:
Yeah, it is. They’ve got a museum in part of it.
SL:
Okay. That’s what I’m thinking of. It’s—yeah, Paul Allen’s—
PW:
Yeah, yeah. I went up there. I can’t recognize it too much now.
SL:
Probably not, yeah.
PW:
But I went through their museum up there a little bit, too, one time.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. He’s got quite a bit of stuff in that museum that’s very unique
aircraft, I think. That’s a nice area to go.
PW:
They have a—they have a lot of what I call “hardware.” Old vehicles and stuff like that.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Trucks and tankers and something. It’s all historical. But I was in aviation.
SL:
Right.
PW:
To me—just like you do—Ohio National Guard having old biplanes.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I wonder what those planes were? Any idea?
PW:
Well, there—oh, there was several manufacturers at that time.
SL:
That would have been mid ‘30s.
PW:
They were old dope-and-fabric airplanes, you know. But that’s—[addressing
videographer Peder Nelson] are you still—are you all right yet?
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[production talk]
PW:
But anyway, guys. But like I said, the airplanes up there—or the structure-tested the big
airplanes up there at Everett, you know, where they had one total destruction. Did you see
the one inside under cover? I was the supervisor of that job of running that test. It was old
[Heling?] was the engineer on it. And—yeah.
01:48:31
[Discussion of Boeing career, part one]
SL:
What were some of your favorite things that you worked on at Boeing?
PW:
Oh my, everything was favorite to me.
SL:
Really?
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, everything was favorite. Boy, just like all your flight control assessment. I
used to have to come from Seattle here and go over to Renton to—we had the control
services and operations, you know, the ailerons and elevators and everything like that.
And yeah, we had to proof all that system for the autopilots and everything. And the same
way over here right across the street here. We had one there, and I occasionally had to go
over there with that, too.
But anyway, after Everett, I said the 747 program and all that—and all the things went
on. I finally got Seattle here to get—somehow get me back down here. And so—but
that—that was the interesting—and I knew that thing must cost a lot of money, that thing.
We sensed it, too, you know. And I gave it a lot of time in driving from here to Everett
to—for different things, and wear and tear on your car and whatever you want to do. I
never got compensated for that.
SL:
Right, right.
PW:
But it would just—would add more cost to the operation and a knowing that we needed.
SL:
Well, yeah, you say you could feel it in the company. What was it like to be working
there back in ‘67, ‘68, ‘69, when it was such a difficult time?
PW:
Well, you just—you had to be a part of the company to feel that, you know. What you
can do—if you find nuts and bolts or something on the floor or some part and everything
like that, you got it and put it back into circulation. To me, that was putting money back
in the cash drawer. And that’s the way I felt about things. I always had a—I was in
supervision, and anything to me—I said, “I’m going to save my wages. And I’ll do
everything I could to save the cost.”
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SL:
So you really knew how difficult the times were?
PW:
Oh, I did. Yeah. Oh, you sensed it. You know, if you want—some people could care less.
SL:
Right.
PW:
Because they just worked and went home.
SL:
It was just a job.
PW:
Yeah, just a job. And when I’d get up at 2:00 in the morning to go up and to get
something done up at Everett, that’s a lot of—snow in there. Oh, that highway between
here and Everett was just full of moguls. Snow, you know, and the rough—I still
remember those days. And so—and then again, I was just lucky to find a parking spot.
[laughter]
SL:
Well, I’m sure there was a lot of people working on that.
PW:
Yeah. But—oh man. Well, we’re not deviating too far away from the Museum here.
That’s what we’re working on now to make this world renowned.
SL:
This is a wonderful museum now. Yeah. It really is.
PW:
It is. It is. Now, I stopped in—I stopped back in Dayton and went to old Patterson Field
one time I went back that way. And I stopped there for a little bit, but I thought, “Oh, I
didn’t—I’ll be here for a week.” [laughter]
SL:
Well, and when you were on it in the war time, it had to have been so much different.
PW:
Oh, it was—it was, yeah. And then, like I said, like the old B-19, breaking through the
taxiway.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
PW:
[unintelligible 01:52:51]
SL:
Didn’t think it was a problem, and it was.
PW:
Yeah, it was. It was a problem. Well, nobody really gave a lot of thought to weight, and
then when it gets warm or something and the blacktop gets soft and goes right through.
SL:
You bet.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
Yeah.
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PW:
And—
01:53:14
[Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa]
SL:
Yeah. Well, you mentioned one other famous person from Ohio, too, that you knew.
PW:
What say?
SL:
John Glenn.
PW:
Oh, John Wayne [sic]. Oh yeah.
SL:
Glenn.
PW:
Poor old John. I stop and say hi to him every so often, go by and, “Hi, John.” Well, John
and I were in the same school district in Ohio.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And so therefore we were in the same athletic district, too. So one time, I got—we used
to compete. When we’d go over to his place, we’d compete in New Concord at the
Muskingum College. And John was in high school and I was in high school, but we went
there to compete. But John would always beat me in dashes. And so I said, “I’m going to
fix that.” So I beat him in pole vault. So that kind of irritated him, made him mad, so he
joined the aerospace group to get—so he get higher than I could. [laughter]
SL:
Got one up on you.
PW:
But I know—no, he—I didn’t know John real, real close. I just knew him that we
competed in athletics at school.
SL:
Sure.
PW:
And because we were in the same district.
SL:
Same district and the same age. Yeah.
PW:
And the library called—one time, we took a break in a day and went with John to his
grandmother. His grandmother lived there in town, I think. And she had cookies and milk
for us. So I ate his grandma’s cookies and milk. [laughter]
SL:
Ah, that’s great.
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PW:
But I always tell it jokingly now, jokingly, that, “Old John,” I says, “he just—I beat him
in pole vaulting, and then he never got over that. So he would join the Astronaut Corps
just so he could get higher than I could.” But he was a fast little guy, like a little bunny
rabbit, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
But I don’t know all the fine details. I just know this little—we weren’t—
SL:
It’s a good connection.
PW:
Yeah, a good connection.
SL:
It’s a—yeah. It’s a human connection.
PW:
And just like the Rickenbacker thing, the fact that we were on flight together, you know,
and when he was trying to sell Eastern Air Lines airplanes. And I met—oh, I’ve met a lot
of people around the country with flying around with that sales, trying to get—sell them
flight demonstration.
SL:
Well, it’s interesting—yeah, to being on the demonstration team like that had to have
been really interesting.
PW:
Yeah, it was. It was. And, oh, you know—Chicago, where United Wing—Chicago. Well,
that was nothing but a bunch of boards was there. And so we pulled into United Wing—
and that’s what it was going to be, and we parked—and while we [unintelligible
01:56:39] in, they had a viewing area up above the little—and somebody up there told—
says, “Well, you guys, you made your appearance.” But he says, “There’s some people
was up that was trying to encourage all of the people in the viewing areas to hold their
ears and make noise to, you know…” Ah, wait a minute. And so they said, “But you guys
did a good job.” I said, “That’s great.”
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But you countered what the—people wanted to fight Boeing, you know.
SL:
Right.
PW:
And I thought, “That was a plus.”
SL:
Right:
PW:
That was a plus.
SL:
Wow.
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PW:
One time, I was back in what used to be—Washington, D.C. there. They call it—it’s got
a different name now.
SL:
At Dulles?
PW:
No, no, Dulles is—that’s where your—
SL:
The Dash 80 is at Dulles there, yeah.
PW:
Dash 80 sitting there. [unintelligible 01:57:45] the Enola Gay.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Oh, it is? I didn’t realize that was—they were together.
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, they’re right across the aisle from each other.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
What is the name of that airport? But they call it now Washington—
SL:
Washington National?
PW:
Yeah, yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But [unintelligible 01:58:10]—we landed there with the Dash 80 one time, you know.
And probably there—we were trying to—we were there on the purpose with the military
side to make sure to give them their tankers, the flying boom, you know.
SL:
Oh, right.
PW:
Because I was on the flying boom program, too, from the very beginning.
SL:
Oh, you were?
PW:
Yeah, I was in that and—right here on the field.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And [unintelligible 01:58:40] that was going on, we were in the lobby of this hotel that it
was at, and this elevator came down behind us. And when it landed, out come Jimmy
Hoffa and two of the federal people on each arm. And so I looked—I didn’t know all of
this until I started to inquire a little bit while I was looking at. And he says, “Oh, he got
subpoenaed, and they just make sure that he attends.” [laughter] But that’s the last time
I’d seen Jim Hoffa.
SL:
Yeah. A lot of folks haven’t seen him for a while. [laughs]
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PW:
And—oh my.
SL:
I’ll look at my notes here.
01:59:32
[Flying boom program]
PW:
And anyway, then—no, like I was saying about—shut me up here when you get through.
SL:
No, it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting.
PW:
And anyway, we talk about the flying boom thing, you know. I was in on it right on the
very beginning with that. And we had some old B-29s sitting around and so they wanted
to make them into tankers, so I got involved with those over—we did it over in Renton.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
Converted them and put tanks in the bellies of the plane and plumbed them up so we
could refuel.
SL:
Well, didn’t they use that B-29 for that for very long?
PW:
Yeah. No, no, we converted them right over here in Renton.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And anyway, that was an interesting job. But we wanted a backup because we had the
KC—you know, we were going to make it a tanker.
SL:
The KC-97.
PW:
But we wanted to use this as a backup with it, also.
SL:
Okay, I see. Because it was the KC-97, I think, was—
PW:
The KC-97. We made a tanker out of it.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative].
SL:
And that was the Stratocruiser?
PW:
Stratocruiser, yeah. Did you know that the crease beam down the side of the fuselage of
the KC—then the Stratocruiser had a crease—
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SL:
Yeah, I’ve seen it. It’s an unusual shaped fuselage.
PW:
I’ve been told that for us to have that design, we had to pay a royalty to—what was it?
Curtiss or somebody. Because that was their design.
SL:
The C-46, I think.
PW:
I don’t know which one it was now.
SL:
Or the C-50—C-46 I think had that. You’re right. I didn’t know that. Yeah.
PW:
Okay. But then I didn’t know it at the time, but—
SL:
Sort of makes sense.
PW:
Yeah. Because that was a patented design—
SL:
[unintelligible 02:01:37].
PW:
…on the fuselage, to have that in there, although it wasn’t just exactly the same. But,
yeah, you used the crease beam.
SL:
Yeah, the design behind it.
PW:
Yeah.
SL:
I always wondered what that was, why it was built that way.
PW:
Yeah. Well, that’s because we wanted to strengthen up the fore beams and everything.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
And I think that’s probably it, you know, and for less weight. If you had to go all the way
out, that takes a lot of weight.
SL:
Oh, certainly it would have. I mean, for the engines of the time. I mean, yeah.
PW:
I don’t know the full—I’m not in the engineering part of that, though. I wanted to be as
much as I dare to be.
SL:
Well, yeah, you were the one that put it into practical use.
PW:
Yeah, practical use. So we did it that way. And, yeah, we perfected that old boom, the
flying boom thing right here on this field, up around the top hangar up here, Hangar One.
And that’s where we had the old wooden derricks up there to house it in, the boom.
SL:
Oh, really?
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PW:
Yeah. And then later on, they made a metal boom—metal derrick to fit it on. But we used
that. We used regular high-octane fuel in it, too.
SL:
Oh yeah. Well, I guess you’d have to for [unintelligible 02:03:05] work?
PW:
Well, no, you can use anything. You could—but we wanted to make it as natural and
everything to sell the Air Force on the flying boom. And we did, as well as—like I said,
there was—over at Renton, we put—how many of them B-29s we converted to flying
booms.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Must have been a lot.
PW:
God, this is digging into my memories so deep. One thing goes—something goes into the
next thing. But it was always busy, always busy.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That’s good that it is.
PW:
Yeah. I like my work. If I’m challenged, I like it even better.
SL:
Yeah, that—you’re right. That keeps the brain going.
PW:
Oh, yes. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
SL:
Yeah, yeah. Did you work on the boom for the 747 by any chance? Because they made a
couple of tankers out of the 747, but I didn’t know whether that was the same boom or
the same design.
PW:
Oh yeah, we used the same one.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Yeah, we had—yeah, I was there on development, too. We had the nozzles on the boom.
We had the other nozzles that you see today, and we tested them, too.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
That was made by Bendix.
SL:
Oh, really?
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative]. This one here that we—I think maybe still is today was
made by [Vard?].
SL:
I’ve never heard of them before. [laughs]
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PW:
Well, they made it. [laughs] We’re talking, and one things came up behind there—I’d
like to be able to hear myself again. But, yeah, like in the early days of the 707 airplanes,
we always had—the customers were hollering because the leading edge flap—flaps and
the leading edge of the wing would—they’d park a plane, and they’d go out and their
flaps had—they all fell down because of the hydraulic. But there was something to do
with the no-locking mechanism when the flaps retracted, so they relied on black—the
back pressure of the—on the hydraulic line to keep them up.
Well, I was managing on that system—on that, too, right up in Hangar Two. We put—
machine shop. We had a little machine shop back there. And so we went in and tore them
tore them apart and found out how to do it—had the machine, a groove in it, so when
they’d get up they’d stay up.
SL:
Oh, okay.
PW:
And so what we do with that—well, we had to—so as soon as we can, they’d—all right.
When you take the—all the cylinders off of that plane, send them here and we’ll send you
a repaired part back. And that’s how we did—solved that without too much noise, you
know.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, kind of doing it in the background a little bit.
PW:
It’s all—oh, you know how that would be taken by different people. So as far as
everybody else knows, it’s just like it was from the beginning.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But they are new actuators. Wasn’t the same actuator, but we modified the locking
device.
SL:
But a slight modification—yeah, a slight modification that you guys came up with.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And when they—oh, United had a lot of our airplanes, you know.
And so when they—you know, we had—we were busy. And time didn’t matter. It had to
be done. It had to be done. So our flaps didn’t fall down no more.
SL:
Yeah, because that would look pretty strange.
PW:
Yeah. And I was just telling you about the boom you’re talking about there. There are
stories behind there in my head. Oh, lots of them. But it was—we had to prove what
nozzle we wanted to put on the boom, and that’s why we ended up with that one. “Okay,
that’s fine.” And one time when we was modifying for a B-29 tanker, one day they—
somebody says, “This don’t fit.” “What’s that?” “The surge boot.” Somebody made a
mistake somewhere, and we got—they put the surge boot 24 inches too long. And they
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brought it to us to put—“Well, you guys, you can’t…” So somebody misread a drawing
or something.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. And made it two feet too long.
PW:
Two feet too long, and it won’t fit. You can’t—[laughs]. But we caught it real quick, and
so they corrected it.
SL:
It sounds like you brought an awful lot of the practical side of how this needs to be
worked—
PW:
Oh, very practical.
SL:
…from—yeah.
PW:
Don’t bother me with the little tiny, nitpicky details because I’ll give it right back to you.
[laughter]
SL:
No, that’s good. That’s good.
02:08:34
[Discussion of Boeing career, part two]
PW:
But in same light I was talking about before—now, these are generalities. However you
want to do this. I don’t know. But like I say, I was real happy that on the 747 program we
never never—that I felt I saved every bit of money that I was paid.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. That says a lot because a lot of people don’t do that.
PW:
Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so to me, it was money out of my pocket if I didn’t, you
know—but sometimes I got reprimanded for what I did, but then later on it come back,
“Well, you did the right choice.” [laughs]
SL:
Well, and obviously, because you had a long career there.
PW:
Oh yeah.
SL:
And you made it through those big downturns like that and stayed employed. That’s not
easy.
PW:
Yeah, all the way—the Stratocruiser. I was here from the beginning of the Stratocruiser.
SL:
Were you?
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PW:
I used to work with Ed [Hill?]. He was the supervisor of the engine shop over there,
building up engines. And anyway, I worked under Ed. At that time, we had to have one
licensed mechanic, which I was, for every 20 employees.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
There was that kind of a ratio.
SL:
So you’re signing off on it, essentially, by—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. So I met the quota, and that’s why I think they leaned on me quite a bit because I
had—
SL:
Well, yeah, you had a qualification that they really needed.
PW:
And—but we had a job to do.
02:10:17
[Seaplane operations, part two]
SL:
Yeah, yeah. And did it well. So when you were doing all of this still at Boeing and
working on all of this at Boeing, were you still flying on the side and working on the side
on—
PW:
Oh yeah. I was talking about seaplane operations.
SL:
Yes.
PW:
I had three guys operating off of Lake Union. They’re dependent on me.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But I couldn’t do them all. But you ever know of—oh, right here on Boeing, right on the
field here. He had a contract with the University of Washington for flying, teaching
flying.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
I could never forget his name.
SL:
Was it—I’m thinking Gillis, but—
PW:
No. This side of [unintelligible 02:11:09] used to be. Art Bell. Art Bell.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
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PW:
Art Bell. Okay. I was his so-called top man for him to have his business.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
Then he started in on a sideline towing targets. And anyway, I helped him all along that
line, too.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
And Art was a good friend. I thought he was a good friend. And, oh, that Art Bell, I tell
you. I had Art—one time, I did this one airplane, and it had to be a test flight on it. So I
says, “Art, will you do me a favor? Go—tell me if this is all right to you, the flight.” So,
“Oh, okay. I’d be glad to.” So I let him fly it, and I says— [unintelligible 02:12:10] that
little devil. [laughs] He was a corker. Anyway, we got out on the runway and we’re
getting ready to take off, or I thought we were going to be taking off. And he’d run the
airplane over, and he’d run the airplane over there on the main runway back and forth.
And then he’d raise it up off of the one wheel, and then he’d raise it up off on the wheel
like that. He says, “I bet I scared those guys in the control tower.” [laughter]
SL:
He was just playing with them.
PW:
And he was. He was just playing with those guys up there. “Art, don’t get me in trouble.”
[laughter] But he did. Art, he had all the [unintelligible 02:12:55] there. This is just a new
rebuilt airplane. I just did it. But that was both a test flight and doing that like that on the
runway. [laughter]
SL:
We’re just making sure.
PW:
But he says, “Ah,” he says, “I woke them up.” [laughter]
SL:
I would say so.
PW:
But, yeah. But Art, he was a nice guy, and I helped him. I helped him. He was—he had
some things to fulfill because he had a contract with the University in a way, you know.
And so I kept his—he had a bunch of Piper Cubs.
SL:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
PW:
And so I maintained them for him. The only thing I was—I worried every time I opened
up the hangar doors, I thought the roof was going to fall in because it needed so much
work on the hangar.
SL:
A rough old hangar. Yeah. Oh, wow.
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PW:
And so I got—he didn’t hold very many of them. Most of them we tied up outside. And,
geez, here you got me wound up here, you know.
SL:
[laughs] The times are fun to talk about. I enjoy it.
02:14:05
[Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft]
PW:
Oh yeah. But you sound like, you know—like experimental thing like that, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah. I do.
PW:
The guy that—Thorp [John Thorp], the T-18s [unintelligible 02:14:15], they’re all—all
those guys were always calling me to come help—
SL:
Really? Yeah.
PW:
…do something—do for them, you know. And hydraulics that they had was very similar,
and—
SL:
Well, those are a very popular plane. I think—
PW:
Oh, it was. They were nice. You got the old shell of one right up above here.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. I think Cecil Hendricks, did he have—
PW:
Cece, yeah. And his dad. His dad had one with four seats.
SL:
Oh, okay. Okay.
PW:
Floyd.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative]. Yeah, he had one. And then Cecil got one and—well, Cecil
built that one, I think.
SL:
I think he did, yeah. That kind of rings a bell.
PW:
Yeah, I think he did. I think [unintelligible 02:14:58] the one he built. And there was
another guy, too. J.W. It was up Burien area.
SL:
Don’t know him, I don’t think.
PW:
But anyway, he built—and so I used to—they used to call me to come help them out, you
know, and—oh, I did. I was always busy.
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SL:
So that was your second job, helping all of these guys?
PW:
Third job or fourth job.
SL:
[laughs] Yeah, helping.
PW:
I didn’t even count them. But I didn’t get paid for a lot of the times. I did it just to keep
aviation going.
SL:
Just to—and to keep you going on that stuff, yeah.
PW:
To keep me going, too.
SL:
What prompted you to build a Volksplane?
PW:
A picture.
SL:
Really?
PW:
And the fact of Volkswagen engine.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Because it’s a very unusual airplane. A lot of people don’t know
anything about them.
PW:
Yeah, it was. Some of the people, they cut one of them in half, the engine.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. And they made it a two-cylinder instead of a four-cylinder.
PW:
Yeah, that’s right. And no power there to speak of, but—
SL:
No, no.
PW:
But—because they was all four good. [laughter] But, no, it’s—yeah, they had a two
engine there. Then they had the two engines, too. They had the—was it a 1,600, an
1,800?
SL:
That rings a—yeah, the Kahuna engines or something like that?
PW:
I don’t know who it was now.
SL:
Yeah, with the two little—
PW:
I had one of them one time. I had—and it so happened—no, what was it? I bought this
one just for the engine part of it. And I thought—things got weird. What’s that sound?
And I know the guy’s innocent. So I opened it up, and the crankshaft come out in two
pieces.
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SL:
Oh, geez.
PW:
Yeah, right at one of the journals on the—
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
And it had broken in there, and these [unintelligible 02:16:57] were colliding each other.
That’s why it was—
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
And it wasn’t a smooth 360 rebreak. It was a—it was kind of like a dogged—
SL:
A jagged—yeah.
PW:
Yeah. And, yeah. So I had a guy, he had an auto parts here, American something or
another, auto parts place. And so I told him what happened. He says, “Oh, you got ahold
of one of those Mexican crankshafts.” I says, “What?” He says—and so he told me about
that. He says, “I’ll get you one from Germany.” And he did.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And so he says, “Now,” he says, “they’ve been noted to do that, all of those that were
made and manufactured in Mexico.” He says, “Been reported breaking.”
SL:
The quality just wasn’t there.
PW:
And so I said, “Hey, that’s great.”
SL:
Oh, man.
PW:
So he—so that’s how I made—I found out about the crankshafts.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you had to have been a big help to a lot of these homebuilders.
PW:
Yeah. Oh, [unintelligible 02:18:08]. A lot of them use the Volkswagen. But they convert
pretty good, pretty easy, and—but some of them, you [unintelligible 02:18:19] cut them
in half, make—[laughs].
SL:
Well, yeah. I used to—I rebuilt Volkswagens from time to time over the years.
PW:
Okay.
SL:
So, yeah, why would you take something that small and make it smaller?
PW:
Yeah. Well, as long as you didn’t hurt the compression ratio—
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SL:
Well, yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
PW:
You just make it run a little faster to get it—take out two cylinders into four.
SL:
Oh, man. Yeah. So what did you end up doing with that airplane and with other
airplanes? I assume you owned other airplanes.
PW:
Oh, oh, the one I had, never had it complete. One of our dear Boeing engineers is a
friend. He watched me build it. And he was being transferred back east, and he said, “I
want to build a Volksplane.” And so I just bundled it all together and sold it to him.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And then he says, “Now,” he says, “I got—” I didn’t have the wings yet. And so I says, “I
know a guy that’s got some wings. He hasn’t got any fuselage, but he’s got some wings
he built.” And so we went to him, and he made a deal with that guy. So when he went
back east, he had wings and everything. [laughter] But they weren’t—nothing was
covered yet, you know.
SL:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
PW:
But here again, Pete Bowers I was talking about. Pete had an engine. Was it a Franklin?
Forty-horse, something like that? Anyway, Pete had it on the—over at his place, and I’d
seen it there, and I thought, “That’ll work good in my Volksplane.” So I modified my
plane for that engine to fit in it. And Pete sold it—he gave it to me or sold it to me. I
don’t know. I have a—if I can find it, a whole—the book form of the Volksplane plans
and all that.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
I got one that Pete gave me one time. [unintelligible 02:20:31].
SL:
Oh, that’s interesting.
PW:
Yeah. Do we have any need for it here, I wonder?
SL:
Probably. I don’t know, but the Volksplane is unusual enough we probably don’t have
much on that in the archive.
PW:
Well, I’m talking about Fly Baby.
SL:
Oh, the Fly Baby. We have, actually—they have his original Fly Baby up at the
Restoration Center.
PW:
Yeah, okay. But I’d worked on that. I worked on that one.
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SL:
Yeah, and [unintelligible 02:20:51].
PW:
And I even flew it.
SL:
Yeah. Yeah, we have that, and we have the biplane wings up there for it, too.
PW:
Oh, do you? Oh yeah. Okay. That’s the one I told you where Pete had me in the back and,
“Pete, I cannot reach the rudder pedals.” [laughter]
SL:
Exactly. Yes.
PW:
Well, I didn’t know that. Did you—do you have—what’s-his-name had that homebuilt
twin-engine job. Wick—
SL:
Yeah, I—oh, man.
PW:
I know we had it here. He had it hanging in the overhead for a while.
SL:
It’s probably up in Everett at the Restoration Center, would be my guess. But I think I
know which one you mean because I think it’s hanging at one of the hangars up there.
[cellphone rings]
PW:
It’s a homemade, and it’s the only twin-engine we had around here, a homemade for—is
that me or you?
[production talk]
PW:
But I know from the very beginning—I keep talking to the guys. I said, “Do you guys
remember when the road used to—the Airport Way right here used to come around here,
come through and hook up to East Marginal—to Marginal Way?” “No, I never heard of
that.” Well, it did. Yeah, you know, we didn’t have all that stuff up there at all.
SL:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Exactly.
PW:
God.
SL:
Wow.
PW:
As a matter of fact, on that land, or most of it here, used to be an RV park.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Yeah. And—
SL:
Interesting. Well, I’ve heard stories about a bar that used to be—
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PW:
Oh yeah. There was a—oh, that had a name. I didn’t go there. My mother wouldn’t allow
me. [laughter]
SL:
Well, yeah, the reputation for it was also where a lot of things got done. If you needed
county-level approval, that’s where you got it done.
PW:
Yeah. Did you ever hear of Clair Popejoy?
SL:
Uh-uh [negative].
PW:
Oh, he was a—well, he ended a mayor of Tukwila.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
But he was in flight test with us here.
SL:
Oh yeah.
PW:
And whenever—Clair and I, though, would stop up at [unintelligible 02:24:11] and have
coffee and donuts the night before we’d finish on. Sure, they talked about a little—a few
things and away we’d go. And stop every night. I worked a swing shift then.
SL:
Okay. Yeah.
PW:
And so it’s an unwinding type thing.
SL:
Sure, sure.
PW:
And that guy, I think he’s still in business.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
But he’s relocated at a different place.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I told you. Don’t get me wound up.
SL:
[laughs] Well, it sounds like your daughter’s waiting for you now, too, I suppose, so—
PW:
Yeah, she’s out here. She’s—no hurry.
SL:
Okay.
PW:
No, no, she—
SL:
No, because that—yeah, we’ll talk as long as you want to talk. [laughs]
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PW:
Don’t you guys have to go home? You didn’t bring—you didn’t—I think your batteries
ought to be wore out by now.
[production talk]
02:25:28
[Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight]
KELCI HOPP:
So you mentioned a while back in one of your previous stories that you
had a story about Harl Brackin.
PW:
Yeah.
KP:
I was wondering if you could talk about that.
PW:
Oh, with Harl, while we were both together with the PNAHF, started out with, and then
with the Museum part over here, but mostly with the Museum portion of it is where—but
like I said, part of the story was everybody was down on me for having a fly-in to support
the Museum. And I’m saying, “No. It won’t do it.” And they—although they’d fight me,
and they had a beautiful turnout. And then Harl was there, and he acknowledged the fact
that I fooled them. [laughs] But he says, “You pulled it off.” But I wouldn’t have done it
unless I could figure—do something.
SL:
But you—yeah, you knew it would work.
PW:
Yeah. There has to be an end, a good end.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
There has to be a good—the end, yeah. Okay. Now, Harl and I—I just associated with
him only through the Museum. I never—not work or anything.
KP:
Got you. And how did you first become involved with volunteering with the Museum?
PW:
With it here?
KP:
Yeah.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
Because it was—with PNAHF, I was with them from the very—like I said, before we
even had any place to put the airplanes, so in somebody’s front yard.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
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PW:
Over at McMicken Heights, they were parked in—
SL:
Yeah. So you still—yeah, you continued it from day one.
PW:
Day—right. Yeah.
SL:
And then you’ve been a volunteer now—
PW:
Yeah. Yeah, I do it now because my heart is in this.
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
You know?
SL:
Yeah.
PW:
I like being—there’s nothing to be—for me to gain by it, you know. I mean, there is
always self-satisfaction, but there’s no—
SL:
Well, and that’s it. There’s kind of thinking about what you—what legacy you want to
leave here and with this Museum, the Museum is part of it, obviously.
PW:
Well, it—yeah, I believed in it from the very beginning, and I want to see it survive. But
I’m a stickler on maintaining it, too. And I’ve been raising a little Cain with—around the
circles, I think it’s happening. I didn’t like to see the burnt-out bulbs on the inside. And I
see today—I see these things, and I—and, aha, there’s somebody heard me. [laughter]
SL:
That’s very, very good.
PW:
Oh, I kid the guys in—what do you call it—the high bay area here, you know, the—with
the big—
SL:
Where the—the Great Gallery.
PW:
Yeah, the Great Gallery. Okay. Those guys are all sitting in the end, and I said, “Now, if
you guys got nothing to do but sit here,” I says, “my airplane’s getting awful dusty out
there.”
SL:
[laughs] I like your thinking. We have issues with all of us docents gathering over there.
PW:
Yeah. And so I says—oh yeah, I says—so it wasn’t too long after that they said, “So we
started to clean up.” Or somehow or other. I don’t know when they did it, but they
contacted somebody because they did start cleaning them. You get up on the top rail and
look down, and I don’t—my planes never looked like that.
SL:
[laughs] You’re right. It can be a little dusty.
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PW:
And if you’ve got—and if somebody’s hired to do that, then let them [unintelligible
02:29:31] because the wages will go right on and on.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative].
PW:
That’s my management side. [laughter] Some of the people at dear old Boeing, they
thought I was kind of hard on them a lot of times, but I didn’t—I just tried to
[unintelligible 02:29:48] more responsible for what they’re supposed to be doing. You’re
being paid to do it, but I haven’t got any money to have you do it over again.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Hm-hmm [affirmative]. No, that’s—yeah, understand.
02:30:02
[Closing thoughts]
KP:
I guess our last question could be about future researchers.
SL:
Yeah, exactly. What would you like to leave—basically, when we’re talking about this is
leave for the students and for the future researchers, kind of what your final thoughts on
what you’d like to leave for them.
PW:
Just keep it alive.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Keep it alive. For the Museum itself or in future—
PW:
Keep—the Museum, yeah.
SL:
And your career.
PW:
I don’t know moneywise whether we want to build a—any more bigger—I think let’s
improve what we’ve got instead of trying to venture out into unknowns.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Makes sense. Would you recommend to students and researchers
a career like you’ve had?
PW:
Well, that would be helpful. Do you mean, you know—
SL:
Yeah. If you’re talking to a 10-year-old, would you say, “Do what I did”?
PW:
Oh, no, I talk to a 10-year-old. No, it’s just like today down there when we had
something—we got one of the engines sitting there that you can turn the crankshaft on.
And I said—so I talked to this one young man there, and I was—I said, “Well, how are
you doing?” [unintelligible 02:31:19]. And I reached over and I turned the [unintelligible
02:31:23], and I said, “Ah, this is broke.” You could hand—you could turn the crankshaft
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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by hand like that. Well, I knew it was over his head, but I tried to say—well, I said,
“Maybe the rods in there are not—something’s wrong inside.” And I said, “But this is
where the propeller fits on there.” I said, “This is not supposed to be like this.” And they
think a little bit about why. But there’s—you’ve got to be—the young minds, I think
we’ve neglected to get them back to Earth, to get them back to the beginning.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Inspiring the curiosity that you had.
PW:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like a lot—some [unintelligible 02:32:11], well, I says, “You
know, that still works on the autocycle.” You know, intake, park, exhaust, and all that
stuff. You know, maybe the kid never heard that before. But just toward the end, let
him—maybe it might soak into his head. He might do some more inquiring as to it.
You’ve got to put a little fertilizer on.
SL:
Hm-hmm [affirmative]. [laughs]
02:32:38
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2019 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Weaver_Paul_P1.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Little, Steve
Biographical Text
<p>Paul L. Weaver is a World War II veteran, aircraft mechanic, and pilot who worked for the Boeing Company for almost thirty years. He was born in 1922 in Roseville, Ohio to George and Hazel Weaver. As a young adult, he worked for the Ohio State Patrol as a radioman and at Wright-Patterson Field (Ohio) as a radio electrician for the Douglas B-18 Bolo.</p>
<p>Around 1940, Weaver joined the U.S. Merchant Marine as a radio operator. He soon after transferred to the U.S. Navy and received training at Naval Station Great Lakes (Illinois). Assignments from his service include serving aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16) as a radioman and plane captain and serving in a squadron support unit at Sand Point Naval Air Station and Naval Auxiliary Air Station Quillayute (Washington). He remained in the Navy Reserve after the end of World War II and later served as an ECM radarman aboard the USS Yorktown (CV-10).</p>
<p>After World War II, Weaver attended college under the GI Bill and received his certification as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic. In 1951, he was hired by the Boeing Company. Over the course of his career, he maintained, modified, and repaired a variety of Boeing aircraft, including the 367-80, 737, and 747. He retired from the company in 1980.</p>
<p>Outside of his professional work with Boeing, Weaver was also heavily involved in other aspects of the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He built and flew homebuilt aircraft, participated in seaplane operations on Lake Union, and contributed to restoration efforts of vintage aircraft. He also was involved with the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight.</p>
<p>As of 2019, Weaver is an active Museum volunteer, participating in the Living History program.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OH_Weaver_Paul_P1
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul Weaver oral history interview (Part 1 of 2)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Paul L. Weaver and interviewer Steve Little, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, March 11, 2019. Part 1 of 2.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-11
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Aviation mechanics (Persons)
Boeing Company
Bowers (Peter M.) Fly Baby
General Motors (Eastern) FM-2 Wildcat
Lexington (Aircraft carrier : 1943-1991)
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation
United States. Navy
Weaver, Paul L., 1922-
World War, 1939-1945
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (2 hr., 32 min., 38 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>In this two-part oral history, Paul L. Weaver is interviewed about his decade-spanning career as an aircraft mechanic and pilot. In part one, he describes his military service with the U.S. Navy; his career with the Boeing Company during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s; and his involvement in the Pacific Northwest aviation scene. He also shares stories about other aviation enthusiasts and the early days of the Pacific Northwest Aviation Historical Foundation (PNAHF), the predecessor of The Museum of Flight. Topics discussed include his World War II service aboard the USS Lexington (CV-16); his flight demonstration and mechanic work at Boeing; and his experiences maintaining, restoring, and building aircraft.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Joining the U.S. Navy and assignment to the USS Lexington (CV-16) -- Early interest and experiences with aircraft -- Family background -- Navy experiences, part one -- Flying the Boeing 367-80 (Dash 80) and experiences with Howard Hughes -- Navy experiences, part two -- Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic -- Seaplane operations, part one -- Stories about Pete Bowers and other aviation enthusiasts -- Organizing a fly-in fundraiser -- Aircraft restoration work -- Navy experiences, part three -- Story about Eddie Rickenbacker -- Aircraft restoration and maintenance -- Discussion of Boeing career, part one -- Stories about John Glenn and Jimmy Hoffa -- Flying boom program -- Discussion of Boeing career, part two -- Seaplane operations, part two -- Experiences with the Volksplane, Fly Baby, and other homebuilt aircraft -- Involvement with PNAHF and The Museum of Flight -- Closing thoughts
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/c3887cf811b24ed40022b61f0c4caa6e.mp4
ef1e6de5e60f7af8eeb9af386aed2093
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/6546f9db4e39312001225d1d210b4545.pdf
dcda44c4ccf67beb7b3980ff9a3f9549
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Anne Simpson
Interviewed by: Dan Hagedorn
Date: January 13, 2016
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2016 © The Museum of Flight
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Abstract:
Retired airline captain and Museum of Flight Trustee Anne Simpson is interviewed about her 37year career in the commercial airline industry. She discusses her experiences as a pilot for
Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines, where she flew the Boeing 727, Airbus A320, and
Boeing 747-400. She also discusses her status as one of the first women pilots to be hired by a
major American airline and describes challenges and accomplishments from her career. The
interview concludes with an overview of Simpson’s work at The Museum of Flight, including
her involvement in education programs and her leadership role in the campaign to acquire the
Museum’s Lockheed Model 10-E Electra.
Biography:
Anne Simpson is a retired airline captain and member of The Museum of Flight Board of
Trustees. She was born in 1955 in Seattle, Washington to William Hunter Simpson and Dorothy
Lewis Simpson. Her father worked for IBM (International Business Machines Corporation) and
later started Physio-Control, a Seattle-area business. Her mother was a stewardess for Pan
American Airlines during the late 1940s.
Simpson matriculated at Mills College (Oakland, California) in 1971. In her sophomore year, she
enrolled in flight training as part of a January term project and earned her private pilot’s license
in a month’s time. In 1976, she transferred to the University of California, Berkeley to participate
in the women’s crew team. She graduated in 1978 with a bachelor’s degree in physical education
and coaching. She also continued her flight training during this time and earned her flight
instructor qualifications.
Following her graduation from college, Simpson began applying for pilot positions with
commercial airlines. In the interim, she taught flight instruction at Boeing Field (Seattle,
Washington) and flew charter and commuter flights in Texas and Oklahoma. In January 1981,
she was hired by Northwest Airlines, becoming the third woman pilot to be hired by the
company and one of the first 30 women to fly for a major American airline. While at Northwest,
she served as flight engineer and first officer on the Boeing 727 and as captain on the Airbus
A320 and Boeing 747-400. In 2008, Northwest merged with Delta Air Lines, where she
continued to serve as captain aboard the A320 and 747-400. She also served on the company’s
pilot selection team. She retired from Delta in 2018 after a 37-year career in the airline industry.
Following her retirement, Simpson returned to the Seattle area and joined The Museum of
Flight’s Board of Trustees. Her work at the Museum includes co-chairing the Women Fly
program, co-chairing the campaign to acquire the Museum’s Lockheed Model 10-E Electra,
serving as the first Chairwoman of the Board, and helping to start Amelia’s Aero Club. She is
still an active Board member as of 2016.
2016 © The Museum of Flight
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Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
Interviewer:
Dan Hagedorn served as Senior Curator and Director of Collections at The Museum of Flight
from 2008 until his retirement in 2016. Prior to his tenure at TMOF, he was Adjunct Curator and
Research Team Leader at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. Hagedorn is
a graduate of Villa Maria College, the State University of New York, and the Command and
General Staff College, and served in the U.S. Armed Forces for almost three decades. He has
written numerous books and articles about aviation history in general and Latin American
aviation in particular. For his work in documenting Latin American aviation history, he received
the Orden Merito Santos-Dumont from the Brazilian Government in 2006. Since his retirement
in 2016, Hagedorn has served as a Curator Emeritus at the Museum.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2016 © The Museum of Flight
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Index:
Introduction and personal background............................................................................................ 5
Early aviation influences................................................................................................................. 6
Flight training.................................................................................................................................. 7
College crew team........................................................................................................................... 8
More flight training and time as a flight instructor ......................................................................... 9
Career as a commercial pilot......................................................................................................... 12
Challenges as a woman pilot......................................................................................................... 13
Northwest Airlines camaraderie ................................................................................................... 16
Career overview and experiences with various aircraft ................................................................ 16
Balancing family and career ......................................................................................................... 18
Memories of September 11, 2001 ................................................................................................. 20
Flying the Boeing 747 ................................................................................................................... 21
Merger with Delta Air Lines ......................................................................................................... 22
Involvement with The Museum of Flight ..................................................................................... 24
Favorite aircraft ............................................................................................................................. 25
Advice for future generations ....................................................................................................... 25
The Museum’s Lockheed Model 10E Electra and closing thoughts ............................................ 26
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Anne Simpson
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
DAN HAGEDORN: It’s Wednesday, 13 January 2016. We’re at the Great Gallery, the T. A.
Wilson Great Gallery at The Museum of Flight at historic Boeing Field. In our presence
today is Captain Anne Simpson, Delta Airlines, Retired. And we are also in the presence
of one of the Museum’s most beautiful aircraft, the Lockheed Model 10-E Electra, for
which I believe Captain Simpson has a special affinity. Captain Simpson, we’d like to
first ask you if you would please pronounce your name for us the way that you prefer to
have it pronounced and then spell it for us.
ANNE SIMPSON: My name is Anne Fielding Simpson. I go by Anne, and it’s A-N-N-E, F if
you want to use the initial, Simpson, S-I-M-P-S-O-N.
DH:
And can you tell us where you were born?
AS:
I was born at Seattle Children’s, I think, right here in Seattle, in 1955.
DH:
You’re a Puget Sound native.
AS:
I am. I didn’t spend all my years here, but I’m back and I think I’ll be here for the rest of
my life.
DH:
Very good. And can you tell us your parents’ names please?
AS:
My mother is Dorothy Lewis Simpson, and my father is Hunter—well, actually William
Hunter Simpson, but he went by Hunter. And he passed away about 10 years ago. My
mother is alive at 92.
DH:
Very good. Do you have any brothers and sisters?
AS:
I have an older brother, Brooks Simpson, and a younger sister, Christine Simpson Brent.
DH:
So you grew up in the Puget Sound area?
AS:
We moved a bit. My father worked for IBM, and actually, we moved about every two
years when he was kind of working his way up the ranks there. We came back to Seattle
in 1961, and he decided that he wasn’t going to move anymore and continued to work for
IBM for a few years and then changed jobs and started a company pretty well known in
the Seattle area called Physio-Control.
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DH:
Did you finish your schooling—high school here in the—
AS:
I did. I went—actually, I was back by the time I started first grade, and I went through the
Mercer Island school system, one through twelve.
DH:
So you attended Mills College?
AS:
Yes.
DH:
And that’s located in…?
AS:
Oakland, California.
DH:
And you attended that what years?
AS:
I started at Mills in 1973, and I was there two years, through the spring quarter of 1975.
00:02:40
[Early aviation influences]
DH:
And when you first started your collegiate education, what were you bound for? What
was the direction you were intent on taking? Or had you made that decision yet?
AS:
I hadn’t actually made that decision. I had been given the opportunity when I was in high
school to take flying lessons. For some reason, my parents saw in me, I don’t know, that
kind of look in my eye or whatever. But I was a busy kid. I was very involved in sports
and social activities as well as my education and just never really had time. So when I
went to Mills, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. You know, I was looking for—really,
my family stressed liberal arts education. An education, at least getting a college degree,
if not beyond that.
DH:
Having traveled so much, you probably had been on board aircraft prior to going to
college, had you not?
AS:
A bit. My mother was a stewardess for Pan American Airlines back in the late ‘40s and
actually got her pilot’s license prior to that at the end of World War II and wanted to fly
for the WASPs, but that program ended before she actually had the minimum hours
required. And I think that’s where a lot of my inspiration came from because it’s—it was
a favorite part of her life, to tell that story. Next best opportunity for her was to become a
stewardess, which she loved and she got to hang out with a lot of pilots in the earlier days
of aviation. And then my father actually got his private license—pilot’s license—which I
am positive was because my mother had hers. [laughs] “Got to keep up with Dottie” was
a pretty big theme in our home. And they never really flew airplanes as pilots after we
were born, but it was always kind of family lore.
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DH:
So we’ve got a genetic trend shaping up here.
AS:
I think so, yeah. And they both loved aviation, regardless of whether they were actually
behind the—in the cockpit or not. And anyway, I guess kind of back to where I was, I
was given that opportunity but just never had the time to take advantage of it when I was
in high school.
00:05:00
[Flight training]
DH:
So you did something rather extraordinary while you were at Mills. I don’t think I’ve
ever heard of anyone achieving this in quite this way. You became a private pilot and
went through the entire curriculum in one month’s time? Do I have that right?
AS:
Actually, I think it was probably like 29 days. Mills, as many colleges still do, had a great
program where you had two semesters and then a January term, and January term had a
variety of options. There were classes on campus, you could do something off-campus,
an independent study. You really didn’t even have to go to school at all if you wanted to
just take the month off. As a freshman, I did an environmental study program. And as a
sophomore, as I’m starting to think, “Well, what do I want to do with the rest of my life,”
I come up with this plan to—“I think I ought to try this pilot thing.” And I wanted to get
credit for it and actually have it part of my educational record. So I worked it out that—I
found a flight school, and I talked to them about could I do this if I flew a couple of times
once or twice a day and did all the studying. They said yes.
The next piece was to go back to the college and find out who would sponsor me so that I
could get a credit for it. And I think I went to a couple of different departments, like—I
don’t know—the science, education, and a few others, and nobody was willing to sponsor
it for me. So I ended up going to the physical education department. I was on the crew
team and had kind of a relationship there. And she said, “Well, give me a pretty
structured list of what it’s going to entail.” I did and she said, “Okay, I’ll sponsor this.”
And it was very challenging month, but I loved it. I was flying at least once a day, doing
my studying. And I also had to write a paper because that was required for this project.
So I interviewed some women pilots and got a C initially, but I went back in and talked to
the teacher who had sponsored me and explained what I had done in that month, and I
ended up getting an A. So even though the paper wasn’t the greatest, I did have my
license.
DH:
We’d love to see that paper sometime. Do you still have it?
AS:
[laughs] I might have it. That might be one of the ones—it probably isn’t very good.
DH:
That would be fascinating.
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AS:
I was pretty busy.
DH:
Do you happen to remember the name of your instructor pilot?
AS:
[pauses] He’s in one of pictures that I have. I believe it was Ted or Jim. It was actually a
very small FBO in Hayward, California. They were out of a trailer. And I was value
shopping, and I think it was $350 for my private pilot’s license. And I flew a Cessna 150.
I got a little bit of time in a Citabria, I think, after I had my license. But there were two
guys that owned it, and they had two flight instructors. One was the mechanic, one was
the flight instructor, and then they had two additional flight instructors. It was probably
the smallest place on the airport. [laughs]
DH:
Do you remember—I think most pilots would have to say that they do—but do you
remember your solo day and can you describe your experience that day for us?
AS:
Well, I’m going to have to say it must have been pretty uneventful because I don’t
specifically remember it. And maybe it was partly because I was doing everything so
quickly. My solo day was just probably one of two flights that day. I remember I got out
and made three—or the instructor got out, I made three touch-and-goes—or two touchand-goes and then came to a full stop landing and picked him up, and we probably went
on and did something else. I did teach after this, and I have to say I told all of my
students, “You are far better saving up enough money to just pay for the whole thing and
go bang, bang, bang through your course than going once every other week.” And I think
that was why I was able to do it in a month. Everything just layered nicely on top of the
lesson from the day before.
DH:
That’s phenomenal. I think that would be well advised. It took me almost two years to do
the same thing. [laughs]
AS:
Yeah. And so I got my license, I believe I was at—and because it wasn’t an approved
Part, I think, 141 school, minimum of 40 hours, and I believe I was at 41 or something.
So, again, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was just continuous training.
There were no big breaks to forget stuff.
00:09:48
[College crew team]
DH:
You were apparently an accomplished athlete during this period as well.
AS:
I had two passions at that point in my life. One was aviation, and one was rowing crew
team. School was more of a means to an end. I knew I needed a college degree. I liked
school, but the other two were my dreams, actually. My passions.
DH:
And I understand you were on a nationally ranked crew?
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AS:
Well, it was a collegiate crew, University of California, but yes, we were definitely
nationally ranked. We were one of the best collegiate crews in the country. I think my
senior year we were third at nationals, but that also included non-collegiate crews that we
competed against.
DH:
So you were actually recruited from Mills to go to University of California, Berkeley for
the rowing crew on a scholarship? Or how did that—
AS:
Not a scholarship. There were no scholarships at that point.
DH:
Okay.
AS:
But I knew I wanted to row for a program that was more significant than the Mills
program, which was still just a club. And Cal had a crew program that had just started the
year before, an absolute direct result of Title IX. I am a huge fan of Title IX and what it’s
done for women and women athletes. And many crew programs were started in the mid70s because of that. So at nationals that year, where I was part of a club team, I talked
with the coach and was told and invited to apply to Cal, that he absolutely would help
with that application and that I could join the crew team, which is what I did and I
pursued that and loved my years of rowing for the Cal crew. I’m still very supportive.
DH:
Do you think your athleticism contributed to your competence as an aviator?
AS:
I have no doubt. I think that athletics for all young children as they’re growing up play a
huge part in their confidence, their leadership skills, and their followership skills. That’s
one of the things that I think is just phenomenal about crew. It’s not only being a leader,
but it’s knowing how to follow well. And you see all eight of us. [laughs]
00:12:04
[More flight training and time as a flight instructor]
DH:
So during the time that you were at Berkeley, you continued your flight training?
AS:
I did. So I would—I did most of my concerted training during the summer times, during
vacation. But my father was adamant that if he was going to foot the cost—and I was
very lucky that my parents felt that this was, like, maybe a graduate degree—that I would
fly at least once a week. There was absolutely no allowance for me to let some of that
skill slip by taking weeks off at a time. I won’t say I did actually fly once a week, but I
was pretty close to it. I’d just go out and zip around the pattern or something like that to
stay proficient.
DH:
Must’ve been during that time that you probably fell in love with aviation and aircraft?
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AS:
I think it was before that. I think I actually always thought aviation was pretty darn
cool—again, going back to my mom. But it certainly took a different turn. When I started
my flying, it was a little bit like, “Well, am I going to like this? Is this going to work for
me?” So the first few lessons—and it only took, really, the first 10 minutes before I
thought, “Yup, this is me.” And then I just—I love the challenge. I loved pretty much
everything about it. Operating in three dimensions is pretty special.
DH:
So you actually progressed right rapidly through the normal sequence of events that has
to happen en route to a commercial pilot’s license.
AS:
I had a goal. I was raised in a family where my father—I’d be in junior high, and my dad
would—I’d have some my friends, my guy friends over and he’d always be asking,
“Well, what’s your five-year plan? What are your goals in life?” And we were raised with
that kind of philosophy, so I had a goal. I had a plan. And I knew that when I graduated
from college, this was my chosen profession. I was a PE physical education major in
college, which was kind of my backup plan in case something happened to me physically
where I was unable to fly. Crew was my second passion. And I thought, “Well, I can be a
crew coach or go into physical therapy or something.”
But I was pretty single-minded about this. So by the time I graduated from college, I had
all the ratings I needed to become a flight instructor or maybe go to work for what they
had back then, which would be the check-haulers or something like that. But I was
offered a job at the flight school—in the summer times I moved back here, flew right
here at Boeing Field—and I was offered a job upon graduation at the FBO that I flew
with here at Boeing Field.
DH:
I see. Did you make any other applications during that period towards the airlines?
AS:
I did. And actually, I had 350 hours, which was the minimum requirement at United. And
before I graduated—I think in the spring of my senior year—I was invited to come
interview and go through the process at United Airlines, which was actually quite a
horrendous process. I mean, I had to take—what was it—the stanine test. And we didn’t
hear back for a long time, and it was—I was not prepared for that with 350 hours. And
plus, coming up the ranks as a young woman, not having worked on cars and doing some
of those mechanical skills, I was very ill prepared to take some of the testing that they
required. Not that it’s necessary to be a pilot that you know how a motor works. You’re
not going to climb out on the wing. But that’s the way it was in 1981. So I was not
offered that job. And in retrospect, it was probably the best—one of the best things that
happened to me along my career path. It was much better getting hired by Northwest a
few years later with much more experience and coming in the middle of my class of all
men than going in with the least experience as an initial woman in a class of guys that
had multiple times.
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DH:
So the time you spent here at Boeing Field was exceptionally educational towards that
goal?
AS:
It was. And it was wonderful. I worked with a great group of young instructors. That
tends to be your peers when you’re working at a flight school like that. Most of us are
trying to work our way up the ladder. Learned a lot from them, but learned the most from
my students. I mean, teaching—as any teacher, anybody who’s taught, will tell you, is the
best way to learn.
DH:
Do you have any idea how many students you instructed?
AS:
I was there a little over two years, and I would say that I probably had maybe 10 that
went all the way through their license and ended up with either a private or a commercial
or an instrument license. And there probably were another maybe 50 or so that just came
for their annual recurrent or were getting checked out in an airplane. Not a whole—it
wasn’t a huge group. But when you’re spending a lot of time with one person—and
Seattle area is not that conducive for private pilot training in the winter time. [laughs]
There were lots of times where I’d call my student and said, “Nope, you’ve done enough
touch-and-goes and we can’t get out and do cross-country today.” So…
DH:
Any memorable moments while you are an instructor with any of your students that you
can recall that stand out?
AS:
Well, I had several students who were just lots of fun to work with. And especially the
commercial students, when they would have to take their long cross-country with a flight
instructor, we did some kind of fun things. I mean, they would have family in California
or one, whose father was actually a Northwest pilot, had family in Montana. And we took
a bigger airplane because they have to get that kind of experience, and he took a friend
and I took a friend, and so those were always fun.
I think, as I alluded to before, one of my most memorable experiences was talking with
an older gentleman who wanted to learn how to fly. He’d always wanted to learn how to
fly. And he was saving up money every two weeks to come in for one lesson, and I really
had to sit down and tell him, “This is not the best way for you to do this.” Every two
weeks, he would come in and he would’ve forgotten half of what he’d learned the first
time. And I know I was very disappointed for him. But he did—he went home and saved
up for six months and came back and soloed. I don’t think he ever completed the
program. But he might not have even done that.
DH:
What type of aircraft were you instructing in?
AS:
Mostly Cherokee 140s, was that—was the trainer for—it was a Piper dealership, and that
was the trainer that they used for the primary students.
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00:19:28
[Career as a commercial pilot]
DH:
So the big day came when you got notification from Northwest Airlines that you had
been hired on board?
AS:
Well, and that’s a little bit of an interesting story. I was—right as I was getting ready to
leave my flight instructing job—and I knew I had done about as much there as I could,
and I was just going to go to travel to the south, down to Texas, where there are more
business aviation jobs. And I was called back to interview with Northwest. And they
liked me enough that they brought me in to fly the simulator the next day, and it was a
nice, pleasant experience. And then I got a call about two weeks later saying that they
had—were on a hiring freeze, that they weren’t going to be hiring anybody. This was in,
like, November of 1979, I believe. And—no, January of ‘80. And they just said, “Keep us
in touch.”
So I took that opportunity then and ended up with a job down in Oklahoma City. Well,
first flying charter in Dallas, flying charter out of Dallas, and then a commuter job in
Oklahoma City. And kept them in touch, kept them up to speed with what I was doing
and my qualifications as they increased and stuff like that, and then was hired, actually, in
January 1981. So it was a little over a year, but that year was the best experience and
brought me up to speed with my classmates. I flew copilot on a twin-engine commuter
airline instead of just having the single-engine experience that I would’ve gone with
otherwise. And it didn’t change my seniority any because they didn’t hire anybody else.
And if you’re an airline pilot or want to be an airline pilot, seniority is pretty much
everything. [laughs]
DH:
Do you have any idea how many other women pilots were hired at the same time that you
were during that—is it regarded as a class? Or how is it viewed?
AS:
Well, in the country? No, I don’t know that exact number. I was the third hired at
Northwest. And Northwest was behind the rest of the major airlines in that they hadn’t
hired—until 1979, they had not hired any pilots for 10 years. So American, United, and
the smaller airlines that no longer exist—Frontier—had been hiring women for about five
years. And this is—there is an organization that keeps track of this, and I’ve—but it’s not
exact. I think I was right in the top 30 of the women hired in—with the major airlines
when I was hired. So early on.
DH:
So this really started almost a quarter of the century of flying for Northwest Airlines?
AS:
Yes, it did. And it went by so quickly. It’s just boggling. It’s just mind-boggling to me.
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DH:
Looking back on it, was there a progression? Was there an evolution that took place? I
know that the airline industry itself has transformed itself in the meantime. Did you feel
that while you were moving through it as an ever-more-experienced pilot?
AS:
Oh, absolutely. And I’m probably—most people will tell you this about your industries,
but the airline industry, as I think everyone knows just from reading the paper, is
extremely volatile. It’s up-and-down, up-and-down. And I had I think probably three
lows and four highs as far as where the airline that I was working for was going. When I
actually hired on with Northwest again, they had not hired anybody for a long time, so
most of the people that I worked with—I was the second officer flight engineer—were at
least 10 years older than I was. And they were all so extremely happy to see—it didn’t
matter who you were, just somebody coming in on the bottom of the pile so they could
move up. And it was a great place to be because everyone was so excited about new
hires.
And my outlook changed as my career progressed pretty quickly because I got married
and had kids. And when I got hired by Northwest, I’m like, “Great, an international
airline. I’m going to be flying those big jets around the world as soon as I can.” Well, a
family changed that, and I wanted to stay a little bit closer to home. I wanted to maintain
my seniority so that I could be home for Christmas instead of working. And so I stayed as
a domestic pilot for many more years than most of my peers and my classmates did. But
it worked out extremely well. I have the—I guess, the very—kind of small fish—or bigfish-in-a-small pond story of, “I was the number one flight engineer on the 727,” which is
like the bottom of the pile, but I was number one on it. [laughs] And it worked out very,
very well for me that way, and I got in 15 years of fantastic international travel at the end
of my career when I was senior and could pick and choose. One of the great things about
that profession is you can make those choices. You don’t just have to move up to the next
available position or be left behind forever. Wherever that number fits in whenever
you’re ready, as long as you can do the training and pass the check rides, you just get to
slot right in.
00:25:03
[Challenges as a woman pilot]
DH:
There must have been—for a young woman, who I think must have been an attractive
young woman at the point that you were at in your career, there must have been
acceptance issues. Can you speak to that? Were you ever challenged in any way by the
older male establishment within the airline?
AS:
Well, again, it was interesting because my first several years, they were all so excited it
didn’t matter. And I think they looked at the few of us women who were coming on
board as an example of what their daughters or nieces could be and very accepting. When
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we had one of these big downturns, and it was very prevalent with the airlines to start
what was called a B scale, so the new pilots were hired on at a lower pay scale than the
current pilots. And there was no upward mobility because it was stagnating. I did run into
some issues at that point in my career. I was a senior 727 copilot, and I think there was a
lot of animosity on some of the guys—and it was a very small piece of the population.
Most of the pilots were just very excepting, and they got the fact—seniority and it’s
timing and what the heck, it’s luck for all of us.
DH:
They recognized ability?
AS:
Well, and a lot of it is just you’re lucky that day when they—you’re the right age, you’ve
got their right qualifications, and if you were three years younger—darn, you know. But
it had nothing to do with that person, and that person was qualified. But there was some
animosity on the part of the newer hires on a B scale stuck sitting sideways as a second
officer and looking at me five years younger—or the other women because we tended to
be a little bit younger, five years younger—we didn’t have 800 hours in some fighter jet
and how could we possibly be qualified to do this job? And there was some animosity,
and I did run into a few issues during that.
There was also a fair amount of pornography in the aircraft. And this had been prevalent
for years before the women came on board. It was kind of a boys-will-be-boys attitude, I
guess, amongst a portion of the pilot population, and it was just either accepted by—
participated in by the crewmembers or just ignored. Not going to make waves. And most
of it was pretty innocuous. But during this time of a little bit of animosity towards some
of the women, it became, in my opinion, almost accusative and was meant to be hurtful to
the women and in places that were very public.
We had a little—one of the favorite places to put this was we had a little button that we
pushed up overhead where the escape rope—the rope to escape out the side window came
down. So you popped the button, and it would open up a door, and there would be some
pornography in there. And I had got to a point where I just found this very annoying. I
probably should have earlier in my career, but it just got worse. So I decided that I was
going to take a stand on this, and I went to our professional standards and said, “I don’t
care what these guys actually do when they’re there, but this is my office space, and for
the three or four hours that I’m in the aircraft, this is my space. And I should not have to
deal with another person’s mess, whether it’s that they’re leaving their gum wrappers
there or they’re putting pornography.” And it got blown up, actually, probably to a level
that it should have. But I became known around the airline for a while as the person who
was kind of taking the fun out of the job, maybe. That actually lasted for a while. I ended
up making more of an issue about it than just kind of quietly going behind the scenes. It
went to the very top levels. And I think more than anything that cleared it up was the fact
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that the airline started doing better. People progressed. There was not this chip-on-theshoulder second officer.
But it was not an issue just at Northwest. It was prevalent throughout the airlines. The
ground workers who were the baggage loaders who were doing the same thing—and now
this was integrated, men and women—there was lots of pornography there. I think now
I’m not in the job—and it never existed on the bigger airplanes. It was more the new. I
think it was the attitude of the new people coming in who, again, had kind of chips on
their shoulders. But it was a pretty horrendous couple of years. It took a lot of strength on
my part to not feel very, very persecuted as one individual and threatened. But I did not
want to stop my career because of this.
DH:
This was a different kind of pioneering.
AS:
It was. And fortunately, I think it’s partly because I don’t remember stuff like this a lot
and it just didn’t even exist for the rest of my career. I mean, I let it go very easily. I
didn’t have to work at letting it go. I just was like, “Okay, that was then. This is now.”
And even though I didn’t get a lot of support from people at that time, I was—it was
acknowledged afterwards by some of my women friends who said, “You know, Anne,
thank you for doing that. I really feel badly that I didn’t jump in there and stand with you,
but I couldn’t take the heat. I did not want to be that person that was targeted.”
DH:
A special kind of courage. I admire you for that. I think that’s—I think probably looking
back on it, it’s not one of the elements of your career that most people would recognize as
having been a significant contribution, but I think in retrospect it almost has to be viewed
that way.
AS:
Well, thank you. I hope so. And I think it is because I think it’s probably a nicer
atmosphere. And during that time I also had plenty of people that said, “Working with a
woman pilot is the best thing.” I mean, people would say that so often, the men, just
because of our—CRM, Crew Resource Management, was started during my early years. I
think about when I was ending my first office—my flight engineer into my copilot years.
And there was some resistance to it by the captains who, you know, “I finally made it
here,” but not very much. And there were so many people that I worked with that would
say, “You women get this just kind of naturally.” And that’s a very broad statement. But
we do tend to be—and I think it’s because of the whole nurturing motherhood and we
just—that’s just part of most women’s makeup. We tend to be more collaborative, and
that’s what Crew Resource Management is all about.
00:32:27
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[Northwest Airlines camaraderie]
DH:
I’ve heard it said that Northwest had a peculiar culture of—a camaraderie, a sense of
belonging that a lot of airlines—other airlines have not been able to emulate. Do you feel
that was true for you? Did you feel an affinity for the line?
AS:
Well, it’s interesting, not having worked for another airline during that time and then
becoming part of Delta. I think a big piece of that was—because there was always so
much tension between the pilot ranks and management that, yes, the pilots really did
stand together. And so maybe it’s one of the good things that came out of it. Because the
company was very successful. We’d go through these terrible negotiation contract
negotiations. In the end, usually it worked out okay, even if we ended up going on strike.
But the pilot group, yes, was very close.
And safety—and every airline will tell you this, but I really think that our flight
operations at Northwest Airlines was the best in the industry. I mean, we were really
leaders in pioneering—like Pan American, pioneering routes, turbulence, and doing the
turbulence plots and knowing areas of where you’re going to come—mountain wave. I
mean, we developed that. Also—gosh, it’s been—I haven’t flown for a year. All the
terms are losing—but as far as our fuel planning, where we would short release the
airline. So we didn’t have to carry fuel all the way across the ocean, we would short
release to a destination and then make sure at that point we had enough. And carrying
fuel costs fuel, costs money. And especially as fuel prices got so extraordinarily high.
00:34:32
[Career overview and experiences with various aircraft]
DH:
You must have flown an incredible—I’d love to see your logbook sometime.
AS:
I didn’t actually even keep one after a while. I know, it’s terrible. [laughs]
DH:
Tell us by the progression of aircraft types that you piloted and when you moved from the
right seat to the left seat.
AS:
So I started off on a Boeing 727. Loved, loved, loved that airplane. Of course, it was my
first commercial jet and just was so fond of it. Sitting sidesaddle at the desk, flight
engineer, I look back and there are no aircraft any longer flying with the major airlines
like that that was such a great place to start. Because, yes, you had lots of responsibilities,
manage all the systems, but it was the big picture on the industry. I mean, I learned so
much from working with captains and copilots before I actually had to sit into a flying—
got to sit in a flying seat.
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I moved from that position after about five years and two kids to the copilot seat on the
727. Loved it over there. Just such a wonderful spot. And as we used to joke about, the
copilot had all the fun and none of the real responsibilities. Because you got the flight
engineer doing the systems, you got the captain taking all the responsibilities—we just
got to fly. It was great. Actually hand-flew that airplane a lot. We’d put the autopilot on
at cruise, but basically, top of descent, you’d click it off, hand-fly it down.
And then I really wanted to fly captain on the airplane, but because of the way our
progression was working at Northwest, that was going to be an opportunity that was quite
a bit in the future for when I wanted to check out as captain. We had just taken on—we
just had the Airbus A320s come on board, first domestic carrier to have that airplane.
They were flying out of Detroit initially, and then I think it was a couple months later
they came to Minneapolis, where I was based.
So I went through that training program, so I moved from right seat on the 727 to left seat
on the Airbus, which was—I was kind of worried about this. And I went in and talked to
the director of flight training on the Airbus about it, you know, how was that going to be.
Because right seat 727 to left seat 727—I’d worked with a lot of guys that made that
transition, and it’s from going like this to going like—[laughs]. And they got it. But it
was a little bit of a struggle, changing your hands around. And this director of flying was,
“Oh, it’s such a piece of cake. You just won’t have any issue.” And that’s true. The side
stick was an absolute non-event. It was a very simple transition.
The huge challenge—and it was—just the training was very, very difficult because all the
things that you learn in traditional airplane you might as well just kind of have thrown
away. And Northwest, being one of the very early operators of that aircraft, trained us
kind to the extreme, which made sense at that time. But we really had to understand all
kinds of things that they don’t even teach now, that we have no control over, that if you
just have kind of a vague idea of, “Oh, yeah, we’re going from direct law to normal law
to backup law,” it doesn’t really matter what that—how that happens. It just matters that
you know how to operate it when it—and that’s not quite true, but the details were not
really necessary.
So I went through that training and lost 10 pounds, and it was a tough time. But the best
thing was I was paired with a woman copilot. And it was 100% because of our seniority.
It had nothing to do—
DH:
Was that the first time that had happened?
AS:
Possibly. And we had merged with Republic, so she was a Republic pilot previously, and
I was Northwest. And I didn’t know her. I had seen her, but we weren’t mingling fleets
except for, like, on this new airplane. So we were both the most senior in our class, and
that’s why we were paired together. And it was such a wonderful experience having her
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there. But she’s still a very close friend of mine and brilliant. And together we just kind
of got ourselves through that, and it was so nice. Not that I wouldn’t have worked great
with a guy, but there were just those things where we could kind of let our hair down a
little bit more.
And so I got through that. It was very challenging and then spent—wow, that’s—I spent
a long time on that. So flew the Airbus captain for about 10 years, got very senior on it,
and then moved back to a Boeing aircraft, to Boeing 747-400.
DH:
Was there another transition in all there?
AS:
Yes, but at that point—so I had gone from copilot not only to a new aircraft, new flying,
but also to a captain position. And most copilots will tell you, “Well—” And you’ll tell
the copilots, “Well, you know how to fly that airplane. It’s not that big a deal.” But there
is really a lot of things going on when you’re captain that you don’t—aren’t aware of.
Even though you think you have all this responsibility—and you do as the copilot—
there’s just another layer added onto it. And even though you don’t consciously think
about the fact that you’ve got an airplane full of people who are counting on you and
crew who are counting on you, even though you’re not thinking about that kind of at the
front of your mind, it’s always there. And honestly, for my first year as an Airbus captain,
it weighed heavily on me. Not consciously, but I would come home mentally fatigued
from those trips.
So now my transition to the 747 was—I think that was the harder transition, from being a
copilot to a captain, than actually learning the airplane, especially in this case. Now, I had
to learn international operations, but copilots—and usually there’s two full crew, so I had
another captain and two copilots. There is so much backup on that airplane. I loved it. I
mean, I really liked the fact that I had not just people who are working for me but a true
100% peer and a captain and most of the time somebody senior to me, who if everything
got really bad I could defer to him. Or her. Always a “him,” though.
00:41:04
[Balancing family and career]
DH:
Well, let’s back up a little bit before I get into some more questions about the 747
experience. You became a mother.
AS:
I did. Twice. [laughs]
DH:
And during that point of time, at any point did you feel like this was a compromise that
you had to make for your career? Was it something that you felt might put your forward
progression in jeopardy? In other words, were you able to, in fact, have it all?
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AS:
I think I had it all. I will say that through my career I’ve had lots of times where I’ve been
early. I’ve been one of the first X number. But I was the first woman at Northwest
Airlines to have a baby. And when I went in to tell the chief pilot, I think it was just an
absolute shock to him that pilots could have babies. And he’s like, “What? How can this
happen? We’ve never had a person—a pilot have a baby.”
DH:
Was there a policy that governed it?
AS:
No, there was no policy. So I actually worked very close with the union before—
Northwest doesn’t—well, there’s no Northwest—they don’t know this. Before I actually
even went in and told the company, I said, “This could possibly be precedent-setting.”
And there was a huge range across the industry, because I wasn’t the first pilot, but the
first Northwest pilot. In Canada, they—I think it was Air Canada or Canadian or one of
them—you had to take your leave your first trimester, you could work your second
trimester, and then you had to go back on leave the third trimester. One of the other U.S.
carriers, as soon as you found out you had to tell the airline and you had to go on leave.
They just really didn’t know. I mean, which is kind of ridiculous. They’d had flight
attendants having babies for years, decades.
So I spent a long time working with first the union, saying, “How do you want—” And
they’re kind of like, “Well, we don’t know. What do you want to do?” I said, “Well, I’d
like to work as long as possible and then take a leave.” So I went in and talked to the
chief pilot. And it was actually very strategic. I did it over the Christmas holidays, told
them just before Christmas holidays. I was supposed to work on Christmas and New
Year’s. And we were very short pilots, and I thought if there’s ever a chance they’re
going to let me work and once they’ve said… So the way the policy evolved was we
were allowed to continue to work. We had to get a note from our FA physician, who
would talk to our OB/GYN, saying that we were fit to fly. And then when we wanted to
take our leave or when our doctor said we should, we would just turn that note in. And
we had to have that every month before bidding. But there was no uniform, so I worked
until my pants were too darn tight—[laughter]—which was, I think, about seven months.
And then I actually—I guess with the second child, another pilot had had a baby in
between and she went to work in the training department, not actually as an instructor but
just sitting as a support pilot. And so I did that for a few months before the second one
was born.
DH:
And your children were boy and girl? Two boys?
AS:
Well, I have an older boy and a younger girl. They are now—let’s see—it’s 2016, and my
kids are 31 and 33.
DH:
Any genetic down the road for them?
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AS:
No, neither—so their father was also a Northwest pilot, and as much as I think they
should have looked at the fact that we were—maybe we were home too much. Maybe
that’s—[laughs]—looked at our lifestyle compared to the lifestyle of their friends who
had two working parents, I would have thought both of them would’ve jumped on it. But,
no, neither have seemed to have had any interest in it.
DH:
There’s still time.
AS:
There’s still time. Right. I’m not sure, but as far as having it all, I—I think one of the
reasons that—there’s still—it’s still a very small percentage of women airline pilots. And
you know this as well, which is why we have this beautiful Electra here. I think part of it
is that girls growing up and maybe young women who want to have families don’t think
that it’s the best career to have a family. And I would counter that by saying it was the
best career. I would—I have little babies who’d be waking up three or four times—and I
took several months off for each of them—they’d be waking up in the middle of the
night, I’d have to get up. My friends who did that were always tired. I could go away for
three days, two nights, get a really good night sleep, eat in a restaurant—it was all paid
for by my per diem—come home feeling great, and then I would have—if I did a threeday trip every week, I’d have four entire days with my kids from the beginning of the
day.
DH:
That’s wonderful.
AS:
And then when they got to be teenagers, I could go away and leave them. [laughter] And
actually, it was the kids that would be saying at that time, “Mom, when are you going
back to work? You’ve been home a long time.” Good childcare is the big piece of that,
though, so…
00:46:28
[Memories of September 11, 2001]
DH:
Where were you at on 9/11?
AS:
I was home in Minneapolis. I had just gotten home two days before, flown right over
Gander, which is—we talked about earlier—where so many aircraft went and the
Newfoundlanders took such good care of those people. So I was home. I was supposed to
be—I was on vacation the next day, and I was supposed to be going to Europe on the 2nd
of September, which, of course, didn’t do. But it was a very traumatic time for
everybody. And I had many friends, domestic and international friends, who were stuck
in places that dealt with it a lot more than I did, except for—just my empathizing with the
whole country on that.
00:47:21
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[Flying the Boeing 747]
DH:
So you transitioned from the Airbus A320 to the Boeing 747-400?
AS:
Yes.
DH:
Was that the—something that you welcomed or—these are decidedly different sized
airplanes.
AS:
Yes.
DH:
Was this something that you anticipated, looked forward to with enthusiasm?
Trepidation? How did you feel about it?
AS:
Oh, I was very excited about it. You know, for—we had DC-10s at that point, and most
of my peers, my classmates, went 727 second officer, copilot, captain, DC-10, maybe do
something in between. And I missed the DC-10 completely, which saddens me a little bit.
My friends who flew the DC-10 just loved that airplane. And it had some of the best
flying—the route structure that Northwest had for that DC-10 was fabulous.
But, no, I was very excited to get into the 747. Of course, like any transition, you wonder
how it’s going to work, how hard is it going to be, what is it going to be like moving from
20 feet off the ground—or probably not even that much—up to three stories. And
actually—and I tell this story often—the first time I was in the cockpit of a 747, the very
first time—well, maybe actually flying—no, 400, the very first time I was actually flying
it, I had an instructor pilot sitting next to me. But the simulators in—this was 19—was it
2001? Yeah, I guess it was 2001. Yes. The simulators were so good at that point that they
had been approved for all your training right up to your initial operating experience. And
so I still really didn’t know because the peripheral vision is the piece in the simulators
that you don’t really understand. So I still really didn’t know what it was actually going
to feel like. And I think one of the things about the bigger airplanes is everything’s—
they’re still in the same relationship. So you go from an airplane that’s this high but the
cockpit’s this big or this big, then you go to an airplane that’s this high but the cockpit is
this big and the seats are that big. So everything feels like it is working pretty well.
And it wasn’t that hard. This airplane is the best landing airplane in the whole world.
Those big truck gears that they have—we had center gears—it was almost hard to make a
bad landing. I mean, not such a great landing maybe, but it was—you could make
beautiful landings fairly easily on that airplane. It was—I loved it.
DH:
Describe for us the day that you became the captain in command of a 747-400 for the
first time.
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AS:
Gosh, I guess it’s not really good to say it was just another day at the office because it
wasn’t. It wasn’t. I think the biggest things to walk—well, this was on my OE because by
the time I got off the OE, I—you just don’t have somebody there, but you also have
people there who are very experienced as your copilot.
But walking up to the airplane is the most unbelievable experience because it’s so big.
And then when you’re doing that, even though as captain you don’t do the physical
exterior preflight, you do it when you’re doing your training so that you get out and look
at it. And that—I mean, the smaller airplanes, you kind of walk around. It doesn’t take
very long. To walk around a 747 takes a lot of time. And there’s four engines you’ve got
to look at and extra wheels and all of that stuff. And you walk up to one of those nacelles,
and you’re just like—even though you kind of know they’re huge, it’s just unbelievable.
And by the time you get back to the back of the airplane, you want to stop and have a
drink of water, it’s so far back there.
DH:
[laughs] So how many hours do you think you had in the 747?
AS:
Oh my gosh. I should’ve looked all this stuff up. I think I have—let’s see, I have about
22,000 hours. Gosh, could I just exaggerate and say—[laughs]. Let’s say—
DH:
I guess what I’m looking for is proportionately—
AS:
Okay. I was doing about 500 hours a year for eight years. Four thousand.
DH:
Wow.
AS:
And it’s interesting the way you’d do your hours when you get into a big airplane like
this, is you’ve got two pilots—two captains—so I did not log all of the—if it’s a 12 hour
flight, I would only log half of it. When I started flying the Airbus where there was one
captain and two copilots, I logged it all as PIC time. Even though I was in the bunk, I still
was ultimately responsible. When there was another captain in the seat, I felt that I didn’t
get to log that time. The FAA doesn’t seem to really care.
00:52:33
[Merger with Delta Air Lines]
DH:
You went through something that is increasingly common in the airline industry. You
were with a major legacy carrier that merged with another legacy major carrier. What
was that like?
AS:
Another—if you go back to my Airbus challenge, it was probably a similar challenge to
that. We knew something was going to happen. And actually, at Northwest, we always
kind of felt that it might be with Delta. Our CEO Richard Anderson left for a couple of
years and then became CEO of Delta, and it all just kind of made sense as the mergers
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were going on. Delta was a little bit bigger and—I want to be a little bit careful what I
say, but not really—but we on the Northwest side felt that it was a merger. The pilots on
the Delta side felt very much that they bought us. And they were little bit bigger, so the
transition became not quite as collaborative as it had actually with the Republic merger
that we had back in the ‘80s.
And they—we became—we had to learn how to operate the aircraft the way Delta
operated their aircraft, which was a shock to us that it was so significantly different. I
mean, truly a shock. We felt that our operations had to be pretty much the same because
we were about the same, but their culture is very different. Their flight training was very
different. And we went through a transition period of over a year because they were
trying—and as management, it was beautifully executed because the whole—the goal
was to have one operating—set of operating procedures, so we couldn’t be doing it our
own way on different airplanes. And we had to learn their operating procedures, and so
they would change us piece by piece on an every-other-month basis. We would get really
big changes, have to learn them, and then have one—that month of learning them and
then—maybe it was three months—and then a month or two before we got into the next
big set of changes.
And some of these changes had to occur a few times. Like, we would change when we
did this and this change because it worked with that change, and then the change three
months later, they would change the change that we had just learned to a different one.
And really, the people who put it together—it was very good, but it was very exhausting
for a year or year-and-a-half because every—I guess it was every three months, we would
get this huge packet and just change our manuals and change our flow patterns and
change the sequencing of things, changed how we—what we did in training. And I will
say that what they did is squirreled away—and they told us this—“We’re going to
squirrel away the best practices from Northwest, and once we have a single operating
procedure, we will go back and look at these best operating procedures and we will begin
to integrate them back into—but we need this single operating procedures.” And they
have done that. And I’m proud to say that there have been many, many changes that have
gone back to the former Northwest way, which was superior—and this is without bias—
superior from the very beginning.
DH:
I think that’s almost without precedent in the airline industry, if I’m not mistaken. That’s
wonderful. I’m glad to hear that.
AS:
It is. Well, with the Republic merger, they kind of did it right from the start. But it took a
long time. So from the customer standpoint and the airline management and operations
standpoint, it was—took more time and did not go as smoothly. From a pilot’s
standpoint, it worked—it was easier to do. This one worked better, and that’s the way it
should be. Customers didn’t have as many issues with it.
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00:56:41
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight]
DH:
Well, somewhere during this period of time while you were still with Northwest, you
became one of our wonderful trustees at The Museum of Flight Board of Trustees. How
did that happen?
AS:
I was living in Minneapolis. I was there for 23 years. And when my kids grew up and
went off to college, I knew that I wanted to come back to the Northwest to be closer to
my family and my parents as they were getting older. And my dad had been on the Board
of Trustees, and I was lucky enough to be occasionally invited out to a gala. And just
loved it, loved the Museum, loved the fact that he loved it. Again, showing his love for
aircraft.
And so when I came back to Seattle, I told him, I said, “One of the things that I really
want to get involved with is The Museum of Flight.” And he said, “Well, it’s a great
organization.” And the first thing I did was work with the Women Fly program here. And
they had actually asked my mom to chair the committee for that the year before I moved
back, and she said, “My daughter’s coming back next year. Wait until she comes back
and we’ll co-chair.” Which we did. And so that got me involved with the education
programs here right off the get-go.
And then the next year I was invited to join the Board, which was truly an honor and it
was unexpected to happen. I figured it would happen eventually but unexpected that it
would happen so quickly. And I will also have to say that it totally changed that Women
Fly experience, my thoughts on education and the Museum. I would come to these galas,
and Bill Rex would stand up and say, “It’s all about education.” And I would think, “Oh,
phooey. It’s about the airplanes. And I love the airplanes. Let’s just say it the way it is.”
And it took me about 10 minutes to realize that the airplanes are here and they need to be
restored and they need to be retained and shown for the future, but they are the perfect,
perfect tool for education and inspiration.
DH:
Well, you are about to set yet another first in your career and certainly a first, I believe, in
almost any major aviation and aerospace museum in the world.
AS:
I was wondering if you would know the answer to that.
DH:
You’re about to become the chairwoman of the Board of Trustees of The Museum of
Flight, and I believe that that is without precedent. How do you feel about that?
AS:
I could not be more honored to take that position. And I have incredibly large shoes to
fill, and I think about it often as this time is coming up. I’ll be following in the footsteps
of Bill Ayer and Mike Hallman and just a long list of amazing chairmen before me. And
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they have a lot of confidence in me, so I’m feeling prepared. I’m feeling ready. And I’ve
gotten to know this place very, very well, and I love it. And it is definitely my top priority
and my passion, and I’m looking forward to the next couple of years of helping shepherd
in our new Aviation Pavilion and all of the great things that we’re going to do in
education.
DH:
You should know that the staff has great confidence in you, too.
AS:
Oh, well, that’s—thank you very much. I’m really excited.
01:00:09
[Favorite aircraft]
DH:
This is a question we ask all of our narrators. And I prepared you for it a little bit and I’m
pretty sure I know the answer, but we want you to describe for us what your favorite
airplane is and why.
AS:
I need to add one thing first, is that I did fly the Airbus A330 at the end of my career.
And I wanted to come back to Seattle and be based in Seattle, and that was my only
option. I would not have left the 747. So that’s kind of the segue into there’s only one real
answer that, and that’s this baby right here—[picks up a scale model of a 747]. And I did
fly it in the Delta colors, and it was absolutely gorgeous in the Delta colors. I remember
seeing it the first time and thinking, “Oh, I don’t want to see my Northwest colors.” But it
was beautiful in the Delta colors. And unfortunately, they’re all being parked. But it is the
most beautiful airplane, and it is—and you remember, I think, the article that I wrote
about the 747 being like a big, old puppy dog. It is. It just kind of lumbers along—yeah,
it’s so fast. It’s the fastest airplane out there, commercial airplane. Going across the
Pacific, we would just go right on by those 767s. But it just kind of—you just feel like
it’s just this big, old puppy dog. But when you ask it to respond, like a big old, puppy dog
that’s well trained and you say, “Sit,” or you say, “Go around,” it responds beautifully.
And that’s really what I loved about it.
I do need to say I loved the Airbuses, too. Both Boeing and Airbus make fabulous
aircraft. And I really have enjoyed every single airplane that I’ve flown.
01:01:57
[Advice for future generations]
DH:
You brought a very special captain’s hat with you today. I’d like you to hold onto that for
a minute. And as you mentioned earlier, we aspire to be the foremost educational air and
space museum in the world. We would like for you to tell us what you would like to
communicate to those who will follow us and what it will take for them to get that hat.
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AS:
Desire. Hard work. I read an article in the paper today about grit. They were talking about
the Seahawks. Having a goal and working towards it. Simple things like education. But
that doesn’t matter what you want to do; you need to get an education. And you need to
do well in your education. You need to work hard.
The other little piece that I found out early on when I was instructing is—people say,
“Well, what makes a good pilot?” I think somebody who has pretty good spatial
awareness, how their body is in space. And maybe that’s more than you’re looking for in
this question. But people—I’ve found that young people who are good drivers—and I
have one of each. I have one who is a natural and one who is a fine driver, but it was
not—it didn’t come as easy. But if you know where your body is in space without
thinking about it, you probably will become—you can probably become a pilot more
easily. I used to always say also that, like learning how to drive, pretty much anybody can
be taught how to fly an airplane and become a good pilot. But if you have that natural
sense, then a lot of the other things come more easily. It’s seat-of-the-pants. That’s the
same thing, seat-of-the-pants.
But to aspire to my position is—or what my position was—is you need to want it. And it
is a fabulous career. I can’t imagine having done anything else. My office has the best
view in the entire world. It’s one of the things that I miss most about retirement.
Astronauts might disagree with me on that, and they probably are right. But you can get
to the top of the tallest building in New York City, and you won’t see what I got to see.
01:04:20
[The Museum’s Lockheed Model 10E Electra and closing thoughts]
DH:
One of my favorite memories as the curator here at The Museum of Flight is the day that
that aircraft that’s behind you was delivered to this museum and you stood up in that
cockpit and were the spitting image of Amelia Earhart.
AS:
At 60. [laughs]
DH:
Did that send a chill up your spine, that moment?
AS:
Oh, it was one of the biggest thrills my life, was to get to taxi that aircraft. I wish I had
gotten to fly it. But from the other side of the field over here, with Tom Cathcart
[Director of Aircraft Collections and Restoration at The Museum of Flight] basically
telling me the whole way what I needed to do. Because it’s really quite different than
anything—and I don’t have much tail-dragger time and certainly none in the last 35
years. But it was so fabulous. It was just—and then to stand up and to have—there were
throngs of people here for that event, and they are all dressed in period—or most of
them—standing there waving and cheering. And I think I felt just a tiny bit like maybe
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Amelia felt when—and everywhere she went she had that. And for me, once was
fantastic. I’m sure maybe she got a little bit overwhelmed by her celebrity, but—being
such a celebrity. But I’m so proud to have that aircraft here.
DH:
I’ve often said that I would like to have had a cup of coffee with Amelia. How do you
feel about having the opportunity to know her?
AS:
Well, the story goes back to really—and, of course, everybody in this country knows
about—knows her name and knows her legacy, which is unfortunately losing her. But
most people don’t know about the many, many things that she did. And I didn’t, until we
started the campaign to purchase this aircraft, which—sitting in the boardroom, they were
talking about the opportunity to bring this airplane to the Museum, and there’s lots and
lots of discussion going on. And I believe Doug [Doug King, former Museum of Flight
President and CEO] said, “Well, Anne, how do you feel about it?” Because I hadn’t
really weighed in on it. And I said, “Well, on behalf of the 42% of the population of this
country—” Or, excuse me. “52% of the population of this country, I think we need this.
And I think it should be part of a girl/woman-centric exhibit that we use to diversify and
inspire the female population that come to the Museum.”
So it started with that. And then I also raised my hand to lead the campaign—or co-chair
the campaign to raise the 1.2 million dollars to purchase the aircraft, which was my first
foray into development and fundraising. And I loved it about 90% of the time. There was
that 10% where it was very challenging.
DH:
Well, bless you for doing it. I’ve been fortunate to be able to add about 16 aircraft to the
collection during my tenure here as curator, but I have to tell you, the two favorites are
sitting side-by-side: the Electra and the Stinson Model O.
AS:
Well, without your leadership in this, Dan, it wouldn’t have happened. And then your
story—I know I’m turning the tables around a little bit here—but your story about having
a picture of Amelia or the airplane. I’m not sure. Or both?
DH:
Both.
AS:
Since you were how old?
DH:
Seventeen and a half.
AS:
Seventeen and a half. And that just says so much right there about where your career
progression and your passion for this—and you were an inspiration to me in working on
this. But this airplane, I learned so much because I had to tell the story. And her story is
unbelievable. And even for girls who want to become fashion designers—not that there’s
anything wrong with it—but it is an inspiration. You can do so many things. All those
hats we women wear, it’s right on top of Amelia’s head.
2016 © The Museum of Flight
�28
DH:
Did you think about her while you were sitting in that tiny, tiny cockpit? Imagine trying
to fly that aircraft three-quarters of the way around the world, basically solo?
AS:
The whole time. The whole time.
DH:
Wow.
AS:
And we couldn’t get one of the engines started when we first were over there. [laughs]
And I was thinking—and I wasn’t really even doing much because Tom was the guy who
knew how to do it. And it’s like, “Oh, all those people are waiting over there and got to
get this engine started.” And yeah, thinking about how much work that is to fly versus
this with all—somebody brings me a cup of coffee and lunch. I don’t have to send
something back by wire to the navigator. So…
DH:
Well, I’m so pleased that we also have Amelia’s Aero Club that has been fostered as a
direct result of the acquisition of this aircraft. Have you been involved in that at all?
AS:
Initially, I worked with Melissa [Melissa Edwards, Director of Digital Learning at The
Museum of Flight] to get that program started, and I’ve come to a couple of events. And I
know it’s still growing. But it is so exciting. And we’re targeting—well, everybody, but
with Amelia’s Aero Club, that kind of middle-school-aged girl that might at that point
think that maybe sciences aren’t cool, boys are cooler or something. And boys are cool,
but science is cool, too. So…
DH:
I sure hope we can nurture that. I love that program, and I think it’s something we really
need to hang our hat on.
AS:
Yeah. And it’s one of the things I’m most proud about the Museum and my being able to
take over this leadership role, with continuing Amelia’s Aero Club, Washington
Aerospace Scholars, Michael P. Anderson Program, summer camp. I mean, just the
amazing things—the high school—just the amazing things we do here. As well as
maintain this fabulous collection that you do so nicely with.
DH:
Cut.
01:10:11
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2016 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
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<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
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<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Simpson_Anne.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Simpson, Anne, 1955-
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Hagedorn, Dan
Biographical Text
<p>Anne Simpson is a retired airline captain and member of The Museum of Flight Board of Trustees. She was born in 1955 in Seattle, Washington to William Hunter Simpson and Dorothy Lewis Simpson. Her father worked for IBM (International Business Machines Corporation) and later started Physio-Control, a Seattle-area business. Her mother was a stewardess for Pan American Airlines during the late 1940s.</p>
<p>Simpson matriculated at Mills College (Oakland, California) in 1971. In her sophomore year, she enrolled in flight training as part of a January term project and earned her private pilot’s license in a month’s time. In 1976, she transferred to the University of California, Berkeley to participate in the women’s crew team. She graduated in 1978 with a bachelor’s degree in physical education and coaching. She also continued her flight training during this time and earned her flight instructor qualifications.</p>
<p>Following her graduation from college, Simpson began applying for pilot positions with commercial airlines. In the interim, she taught flight instruction at Boeing Field (Seattle, Washington) and flew charter and commuter flights in Texas and Oklahoma. In January 1981, she was hired by Northwest Airlines, becoming the third woman pilot to be hired by the company and one of the first 30 women to fly for a major American airline. While at Northwest, she served as flight engineer and first officer on the Boeing 727 and as captain on the Airbus A320 and Boeing 747-400. In 2008, Northwest merged with Delta Air Lines, where she continued to serve as captain aboard the A320 and 747-400. She also served on the company’s pilot selection team. She retired from Delta in 2018 after a 37-year career in the airline industry.</p>
<p>Following her retirement, Simpson returned to the Seattle area and joined The Museum of Flight’s Board of Trustees. Her work at the Museum includes co-chairing the Women Fly program, co-chairing the campaign to acquire the Museum’s Lockheed Model 10-E Electra, serving as the first Chairwoman of the Board, and helping to start Amelia’s Aero Club. She is still an active Board member as of 2016.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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OH_Simpson_Anne
Title
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Anne Simpson oral history interview
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Anne Simpson and interviewer Dan Hagedorn, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, January 13, 2016.
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
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2016-01-13
Coverage
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California
Minnesota
Seattle (Wash.)
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots
Airbus A320
Airlines
Boeing Model 727 Family
Boeing Model 747-400
Delta Air Lines
Earhart, Amelia, 1897-1937
King County International Airport
Lockheed Model 10-E Electra
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Northwest Airlines Corporation
Simpson, Anne, 1955-
Women air pilots
Women in aeronautics
Extent
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1 recording (1 hr., 10 min., 11 sec.) : digital
Rights
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In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Retired airline captain and Museum of Flight Trustee Anne Simpson is interviewed about her 37-year career in the commercial airline industry. She discusses her experiences as a pilot for Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines, where she flew the Boeing 727, Airbus A320, and Boeing 747-400. She also discusses her status as one of the first women pilots to be hired by a major American airline and describes challenges and accomplishments from her career. The interview concludes with an overview of Simpson’s work at The Museum of Flight, including her involvement in education programs and her leadership role in the campaign to acquire the Museum’s Lockheed Model 10-E Electra.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Early aviation influences -- Flight training -- College crew team -- More flight training and time as a flight instructor -- Career as a commercial pilot -- Challenges as a woman pilot -- Northwest Airlines camaraderie -- Career overview and experiences with various aircraft -- Balancing family and career -- Memories of September 11, 2001 -- Flying the Boeing 747 -- Merger with Delta Air Lines -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight -- Favorite aircraft -- Advice for future generations -- The Museum’s Lockheed Model 10E Electra and closing thoughts
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https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/77327520ea2089f8379b448ded66e12b.mp4
b5f3f10fee79d43eb17ad6f17f475d3e
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/7c1ca29fe450f446da068d6c4533128f.pdf
aa20bb2194bd70a08f87ce5ebd290f14
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Thomas W. Olsson
Interviewed by: Bruce Florsheim
Date: October 24, 2018
Location: Seattle, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is interviewed about his military service as a
helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his combat tours in Southeast Asia
flying the Bell AH-1 Cobra gunship and describes his later assignments as a flight instructor for
the Cobra and the Hughes AH-64 Apache. He also touches on his post-military careers with
Rockwell Collins and the Boeing Company and on his volunteer work at The Museum of Flight.
Biography:
Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is a Vietnam War veteran who served with the United States Army as
a helicopter pilot and flight instructor. He was born in the mid-1940s in Kentfield, California to
Ward T. Olsson and Wilma E. Olsson. His father was a career officer with the U.S. Air Force,
and his mother was a housewife and hospital volunteer.
After graduating from high school, Olsson attended the Northrop Institute of Technology
(California), where he studied aircraft maintenance engineering. While in college, he became a
certified A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and worked for Brittain Industries helping to
install aircraft autopilot systems.
In July 1968, knowing that he would likely soon be drafted, Olsson opted to join the U.S. Army
and become an aviator. He completed training at Fort Polk (Louisiana) and Fort Wolters (Texas),
learning to fly on the Hughes 269 helicopter. He next underwent training in the Bell AH-1 Cobra
at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia) and was deployed to Southeast Asia. Over the course of his
combat tour, he flew a mix of attack, visual reconnaissance, ground support, and evacuation
missions and accumulated over 1,300 hours of helicopter flight time.
Returning to the United States, Olsson served the rest of his military career as an instructor pilot
in the Bell AH-1 Cobra and Hughes AH-64A Apache. He retired in 1988 at the rank of Chief
Warrant Officer 4. As a civilian, he worked for Rockwell Collins as a human factors engineer
and for the Boeing Company as a systems engineer and engineering manager. His projects at
Boeing included the 767-400 and 787 Dreamliner.
Olsson’s volunteer work at The Museum of Flight includes serving on the Docent Corps and
participating in the restoration efforts of the Boeing 747 and Boeing B-29 Superfortress. He also
donated materials to the Museum from his and his father’s military careers.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�3
Interviewer:
Bruce Florsheim worked for The Boeing Company for over four decades, from 1967 to 2008. At
the time of his retirement, he was Vice President of Program Management Operations for Boeing
Commercial Airplanes. As of 2019, Florsheim is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent
Corps and has served as the Docent Leadership Committee (DLC) Chair and DLC Chair
Emeritus.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Mark Jaroslaw, Jaroslaw Media.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background .........................................................................................5
Early aviation experiences ...........................................................................................................7
Favorite aircraft ...........................................................................................................................8
U.S. Army training ......................................................................................................................9
Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot ......................................................................... 10
Personal impact of the Vietnam War ......................................................................................... 16
Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache ................................................... 16
Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing ................................................................................. 19
Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner...................... 21
Involvement with The Museum of Flight................................................................................... 22
Closing thoughts ....................................................................................................................... 23
Favorite aircraft engine ............................................................................................................. 24
B-29 restoration project ............................................................................................................. 24
Overlap with his father’s military career .................................................................................... 26
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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Thomas W. Olsson
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
BRUCE FLORSHEIM:
My name is Bruce Florsheim, and we are at The Museum of Flight
in Seattle on October 24th, 2018 for the purpose of interviewing Tom Olsson, a Vietnam
veteran who flew the Cobra helicopter gunship and later the Apache attack helicopter.
I’m going to be talking with Tom primarily about his experiences as an Army pilot in
Vietnam, but we’ll cover the rest of his long aviation-related career as well.
Tom, thank you for taking the time to participate in The Museum of Flight’s Oral History
Program. It’s an honor to have you with us. We’ll start by getting some of the basic
background information. Please state your full name and spell it.
TOM OLSSON:
Thomas William Olsson, O-L-S-S-O-N.
BF:
And just for the record, where and when were you born and where did you grow up?
TO:
So I was born in Kentfield, California, but I’m really a nowhere man because I didn’t
grow up in any given location. My dad was a career Air Force officer, and I spent my
years following him around the world. Everywhere from—right after World War II, he
was in the—an aviator in the Berlin Airlift, and he—we were assigned to Germany, and
then we went to England, and then we went to Alabama and a little bit of everywhere. So
within six months of me being born we were on the road and never stopped.
When I graduated out of high school, I went to college in California. He happened to be
in Washington, D.C. at Andrews Air Force Base. And so I was immediately on my own
heading out, and then the draft and everything else came along, and I found opportunities
within the Army and decided that I’d stay in so that—I just kept moving. And I
actually—the longest time I’ve ever lived anyplace is right here in Seattle. I’ve spent the
last 20—about 20 years here in Seattle.
BF:
All right. Well, I gather your father had an influence on your going into the military?
TO:
That’s a funny story. So I was at a technical college called Northrop Institute in
California, and they—I was studying aircraft maintenance engineering. So a part of that
course was to become an airframe and power plant mechanic, and I was working on—
they had a variety of airplanes and helicopters and stuff for us to work on, and one of
them was a Hughes 269, a little two-seat training helicopter. And so they gave us an
assignment to work on it. I worked on it, and I remember telling a buddy, “Oh man,
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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that’s—I’d never get one of those things. That’s really dangerous. Helicopters are
terrible.”
And then the—actually, probably the impetus for going into the military was, at that time,
was Vietnam, and there was a draft going on. I get a letter from the draft board that said,
“Go take a physical.” And I said—I knew I didn’t want to be on the ground running
around, so I went down to the recruiter, and he said, “Well, take this test, and if you pass
it you can go to flight school. The Army’s got this thing called ‘high school to flight’
school.” Well, I’d had three years of college, but he didn’t bother to tell me that there
were other services I could have gone to. He obviously had needed recruits for the Army.
And so I took the test, passed it, and then I went into the military. And when I called my
dad up and told him that I signed up to avoid being drafted, my dad said, “Well, why
didn’t you join the Navy?” [laughs] So that was a pretty funny thing at the time. I don’t
know what I thought at that time, but that’s what happened.
BF:
That worked out fairly well for you.
TO:
Oh, yeah. I did spend 20 years in the military and was very, very happy with my own
career, although—I was a warrant officer, so—as opposed to a commissioned officer,
which commissioned officers in the Army, if they get to be aviators, they don’t get to stay
and keep flying, where a warrant officer, your job is to be an expert and to fly. And so
that’s what I really dearly loved, and so I stayed in. They made the mistake of making me
an instructor pilot, and I had a great time doing that and continued through the career as
a—ended up being an instructor to instructors.
BF:
Okay, let’s round out the basic background information.
TO:
Sure.
BF:
You talked about your father. What was your parents’ names and what—
TO:
So my father Ward T. Olsson. He went by Thomas or Tom. My mother was Wilma E.
Olsson, and she was just a housewife, followed her husband. His career lasted 30 years,
so she just went around and she would volunteer. I can remember her volunteering in
hospitals. I think they called them Candy Stripers or something like that in the Air Force
hospitals, base hospitals, and did those kinds of things.
BF:
All right. Definitely a military family.
TO:
Yeah, she raised three kids, so—I’ve got a brother and a sister.
BF:
Okay. What are their names?
TO:
So my brother is Eric Olsson, and my sister’s name is Mary.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BF:
You talked a little bit about your education. You went to Northrop, but you’d also had
college at that point and when on to grad school. You want to—
TO:
Yeah. Yeah, when I—after I got out of the military, I went to work for Rockwell
International, at the time, in their division called Collins Radio. And I felt that I had—I’d
gotten a bachelor’s degree—I finished my bachelor’s degree at night in the Army, and I
decided that working for Rockwell, if I wanted to continue in the company or go up in the
company, I needed to get a degree. So I ended up getting an MBA from a college in
Florida.
BF:
You talked about—
TO:
And that was a night school, too.
BF:
You talked about the draft coming up and your decision to go into the Army. What did
you plan to do before that happened?
TO:
Well, I’d been—so I had become an A&P. And I actually was going to college, and I was
working for an outfit called Brittain Industries, who was—built autopilots for small
airplanes. Actually, I ended up putting an autopilot in a P-51. But they were out of
Torrance, California, and so the school was in Inglewood, and so I could go back and
forth from school to down there to Brittain.
And they were—it was an interesting place because they—the engineers would design
the systems, but they’d never designed how to install the systems into the airplanes. Or
they didn’t—when they handed them to me, they wouldn’t say, “Okay, you need to add
this bracket.” What they would do is they’d say, “Okay, here’s the servo. Now figure out
the bracket you need and then give it to us.” And then they would make the drawings to
give to the FAA to certify the systems for the—so they could get the STCs for the
different airplanes. So it was a lot of work like that. And that’s—my real talent is my
hands and being able to work geometry—strange geometries. I seem to think in 3D.
Something like that.
00:08:56
[Early aviation experiences]
BF:
That is a skill, very definitely. Can you tell us about your first plane ride—plane flight as
a pilot or as a passenger?
TO:
[laughs] Well, my—yeah, that’s a good question. So the very first flight was probably a
commercial airliner back when commercial airliners were like the one parked out in front.
Had radial engines. It was probably a DC-6 or a DC-7, following my father someplace
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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over Europe. I remember it was—there’s a picture someplace on the web of my sister and
I in a—all dressed up, getting ready to go on an airplane. Back then, everybody got
dressed when they got on an airplane. And so we were the little kids that were going off
to Europe with their mother, unaccompanied—you know, no dad. Dad was already there.
So that was probably my very first exposure to airplanes.
My first exposure to small airplanes was one of my college buddies was a pilot, and he
had a little single-engine, like a very small Cessna, like a 150 or something. And we went
up, and one of the very first things he did is says, “Well, do you want to see a stall spin?”
And I said, “Sure.” So he did this thing, and I’m going, “Wow! That was something,”
when we pulled back out. And so that was my first experience with that.
BF:
All right. Who was the individual who inspired you the most? Mentor or hero?
TO:
You know, to tell you the truth, I just—that’s a question I have a—when you sent that to
me earlier, and I’ve thought about it, and I can’t say that—maybe Lindbergh, but—I
built—I was mechanical. I was hands on, and so it was things like airplanes inspired me.
P-51s, P-47s, those kinds of things were much more the inspiration, trying to figure out,
“How’s that work? Why did they do things the way they did it?” Those were the things
that were important to me.
BF:
All right.
TO:
I had probably—I just can’t point to a single individual.
00:11:32
[Favorite aircraft]
BF:
Okay. And the question we ask all of our interviewees: what’s your favorite aircraft and
why?
TO:
Well, to tell you the truth, probably my favorite aircraft is going to shock a lot of people,
but it’s a Mooney M20C. And the reason is because I owned one for 18 years, flying my
family around the United States. It’s just a wonderful little airplane, very efficient, very
fast for its horsepower. And it was one of the very early models, so it had mechanical
landing gear, and you had a—what they called a Johnson bar that you latched onto the
instrument panel to—for the gear was down, and then when it was up, you pushed the bar
down to the floor. And it was a very reliable system. That was—as a mechanic, I was
always interested in reliable systems, so I didn’t like electric motors running my gear. I
wanted something that I—push-pull tubes and things like that.
BF:
That was a fast airplane, and it had a lot of advancements for its time, definitely.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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TO:
Right. And it could carry four people, and that was—my family was four. And so we
could go from—at the time I bought it, I was in Alabama, and my family all lived in the
Washington, D.C. area. And instead of 55 miles an hour on the freeway up the East
Coast—or I-90, I could get in my Mooney, and at 145 knots, I could be there in half a
day, easy.
BF:
All right. And although we don’t have a Mooney here, what’s your favorite aircraft at
The Museum of Flight?
TO:
Probably the B-17 because of the—I spent two—three years giving tours through the B17, and I was astounded. And it got me interested in the aviators of World War II, and so
I did a lot of reading about what their personal experiences were and—because it just was
fascinating to me. And how—I was impressed with how small it was, and then I started
realizing that most of the guys that flew at that time were about my size, and so even
though I had to squeeze through the bomb bay, it was really—it was typical for them.
They had the same problems, so it was—I was able to personalize that pretty easily.
00:14:04
[U.S. Army training]
BF:
All right. Let’s turn now to your Vietnam War experience. When did you join the Army?
TO:
I joined the Army in July 1988 [sic – meant 1968].
BF:
And where were you sent for training?
TO:
So the very first training was in Fort Polk, Louisiana, basic training, flew a DC—got a
ride—first ride in a DC-3 down to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And the funny thing there was
I’d looked out the window and on the wing somebody had stuck a bumper sticker that
said, “Eat more possum.” [laughter] And I don’t know why, but that’s stuck with me all
these years. That was basic training.
Then from there, after basic training, I went to Fort Wolters, Texas, where we—right
from—so I passed the test, passed the physical for flight physical, and that meant, “Dude,
you’re into it. We’re going to make you a helicopter pilot.” And so they ran us through
basic training, and then we—and then after basic training, we—literally, the day we
graduated from basic training, we climbed on a bus, and we rode a bus ride from
Louisiana to Fort Wolters, Texas, which was—[cellphone rings]—excuse me. Sorry. Let
me turn this off. I don’t—I’m not interested. So we were on the bus, went to Fort
Wolters, Texas, and started—basically you start flight school by doing officer basic—
warrant officer basic training for about six weeks or so, and then you start flying after
that.
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BF:
Started flying on what? What did you—
TO:
So we flew on the—what is a Hughes 269, which is the same helicopter I worked on in
the school that I said I’d never get near. And so I learned to fly that at about a—right
around 100 hours or so in that helicopter. Had my first emergency—true emergency
procedure with an engine failure in a single-engine helicopter during flight school with an
instructor. And the instructor—I was flying. The engine quit, and I thought the instructor
would grab the controls. And he just sat there, and I had to land the helicopter. And that
was a tremendous confidence-builder, obviously, because then I realized that, “Hey, this
training really works.” And became a very good student, let’s say it that way. I just made
it my job to learn as much as I could about flying and helicopters and et cetera.
BF:
All right. How old were you when you arrived overseas? What was the average age of the
pilots?
TO:
Oh, yeah. There—well, so I was the old man. I was probably older than the company
commander. I was 23. Like I said, I’d been to three years of college—I’d actually—
almost four years of college, but I’d started my college career in a junior college that me
and they didn’t get along. And so I transferred out to Northrop, and I found my place
there. But the draft was after me. After four years they said, “That’s it. That’s enough of
that.” So they wouldn’t give me another deferment to finish my degree, so I just—I
joined up with about two or three years of college—I mean, with the four years of
college, and then I—and that made me about 24. I graduated from high school at 18, so I
was a little older than most people that graduated from high school.
The other pilots in the outfit, most of them were—they couldn’t legally buy beer in the
States. They were under 21. Some of them as young as 18. Some of them had fibbed a
little bit about how old they were to be able to fly helicopters. Interesting that—because
the same thing would happen so much in World War II, too, that the kids seemed to be
motivated to do that. Or a certain group of them, anyway.
00:18:38
[Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot]
BF:
Now, you were a pilot on a Cobra helicopter gunship.
TO:
I was.
BF:
Please tell us about that helicopter.
TO:
So a Cobra is a two-place, tandem seating. The fuselage is 36 inches wide. The rotor
blades are 48 inches wide. So the rotor blades, the wings, are actually wider than the
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fuselage of the aircraft. The reason the aircraft’s narrow is because, back then, we
employed the aircraft very much like a fixed-wing. We made diving attacks. We didn’t
hover around the vegetation very much. In fact, the rules in my Calvary squadron was
that you—we flew around above 1,500 feet because that kept us out of the small arms
fire, 1,500 feet AGL. And then we—if we made a diving attack, we were supposed to
pull out of the diving attack at 1,000 feet or higher. That rule was probably bent pretty
regularly because of the heat of the moment.
So an attack helicopter is—you think of them as escorts, but in my unit, we were a
Calvary squadron, so during the day we went out looking for the enemy. Every day, we
had OH-6 observation helicopters, and then the Cobra would fly high cover for them and
they would go out hunting the bad guys, and we would—and then at night, we would
form up the two search teams into a single light fire team, two Cobras, and then we
provided fire support for the 25th Infantry Division. I flew out of Cu Chi, Vietnam, which
was in III Corps, which was just northwest of Saigon. And so a relatively flat area, some
hills on the northern borders. Also, we did a lot of work down in the Plain of Reeds or the
Mekong Delta area, supporting the Navy and the Riverine, the people in the boats up on
the Mekong Delta. So any time we went on a mission, we were headed for trouble. We
weren’t—it wasn’t like we were going to go out and deliver ammunition or somebody’s
lunch. We would go in loaded ready to shoot and hoping not to be shot at, but that
happened, too, so…
BF:
How many missions a day did you fly and what happened after the missions?
TO:
So typically the missions that we flew within our unit was—we had two days on and—or
three days on and a day off. Two days we’d fly day missions, the visual reconnaissance
mission, the scout and the Cobra trying to find—gather intel on the Viet Cong,
Vietnamese. And then at night—so then those two days after the missions, you couldn’t
do anything because you knew that the next day you had to fly again. And then the third
day you would form up into that fire team for the night missions and then you’d have—
you’d fly night missions on that third day. So you got to sleep in in the morning, but you
got—but you usually ended up staying up late the next night. So then by the time that was
over, now you had—the next day you were off, but by then you were so exhausted you
were just ready to hit the hay. You didn’t do much partying, where the scout guys, they
were—they never flew night missions and so they were always—they would be the
partiers group of our squadron.
The missions lasted—so the aircraft carries about—well, the aircraft carries enough fuel
for about two and a half hours of flight. But because you’re loading all the munitions on
the aircraft, it can’t carry the weight of all that fuel and the munitions, so we always
traded fuel for the munitions. We always went out fully loaded, and we—so that meant
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that we usually ended up with about an hour and a half worth of gas. And my experience
was in one year of flying—and that year was actually about 10 months long because I
was actually grounded for a month—in 10 months, I got 1,200 hours of flight time, and
about a third of that—actually over a third of it was at night. We did a heck of a lot of
night flying because we supported—when I say we supported the 25th Infantry Division,
not only did we support all the brigades, but we also supported the LRRP teams, the longrange six-man teams that go out—that went out searching, and those were some of—
those and the Dustoff missions were probably the more exciting ones of our existence.
BF:
On the “Centaurs in Vietnam” website, they talk about one LRRP mission. And you were
flying wingman to Sam Dooling [Thomas “Sam” Dooling]. Can you tell us about that
particular mission?
TO:
So I’m not—sorry. Well, let me—so I can’t—I don’t really remember that mission, per
se. The thing I would like to say is, for me, it was a job. I tried to do the best that I could,
and it all kind of blended together into one giant exercise of—most of the time, it was
running for a helicopter or landing in a POL point, a petroleum—a refuel location to
refuel the aircraft to go and get reloaded to go back out and do exactly the same thing that
I had been doing.
So there were times when the LRRPs would get into action, and we would go out. The
one that I remember the most probably was we were very close to the Cambodian border,
which is probably another story, but we were very close to the Cambodian border, which
meant that we were a long way from any refuel point. And these guys were in real
trouble, and they were having a heck of a time. And so I rolled in, and when I—at this
point, I was the fire team leader, so I had a wingman now. And I rolled in, and the next
thing I know are these basketballs are coming at me. And the basketballs were .51-caliber
machine gun fire, antiaircraft fire, which was effective above 1,500 feet. So I was diving
right into this stuff, and so I was very busy trying to turn off all the exterior lights and at
the same time shoot rockets. And my gunner was shooting with a minigun, which is in
the front of the Cobra. And the grenade launcher to suppress the enemy fire that was
coming at—not only coming up at us but was being shot at the LRRPs. And then we did
get a lift team. Our UH-1s, the lift aircraft, came in and picked them up, and we got them
out of there. There were many examples of things like that. And those typically happened
in the dark and usually after midnight. It was always a long day, a long thing.
BF:
You talk about flying close to the border. You said that’s another story. Unless it’s
classified, can you tell us the story?
TO:
So the—well—so the interesting thing about flying the border is is that, for most of the
time that we were there, we weren’t allowed to shoot across the border. And so we would
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fly the border—or we’d fly along the border to see who was coming across the Ho Chi
Minh Trail. And the guys would shoot from the other side of the border, and we couldn’t
shoot back.
And then the other thing that would happen is is that guys would go out there and they’d
get lost and they’d fly over the border and then they’d cause an incident. So one of the
commanding generals decided that the appropriate thing to do was to paint the border.
And so one of my jobs one time was to cover a UH-1 that had a spray boom and we
sprayed the border, but we didn’t spray it with just regular paint. We sprayed it with
iridescent paint. So the idea—the general’s idea was is that if you came up to the border
and you weren’t sure where you were, you were supposed to turn on your landing lights
so that this line would show up on the ground. You knew that you were—you weren’t
crossing the border. Of course, the instant you turned on your light in the dark, that
attracted everybody’s attention that was interested in knocking you out of the air, so it
wasn’t very successful.
There were other missions where we flew the border with—I flew cover for a Navy SH-2
Delta, which was their aircraft that had a magnetometer on it. That would be used for, in
the Navy, to find submarines, but what we did was they used it to find large caches of
weapons because it would have a magnetic anomaly. And those caches tended to be right
there near the border, so we’d be trucking up and down the border and the guys are
shooting at us and we couldn’t shoot back, so it was—and then eventually, we did get the
opportunity to go into Cambodia when Nixon sent us in.
BF:
Any other stories you’d like to share?
TO:
Well, yeah. So there is one. I was shot down when I was trying to cover another 25th
Infantry unit that was—there’s a mountain in the III Corps called Nui Ba Den, which is
about a 3,000-foot mountain. The rest of the ground is like 10 or 15 feet above sea level,
and then you got this 3,000-foot mountain sticking up, so it’s a pretty prominent thing.
And the U.S. owned the top. We had a radar and radio transmission station, and then we
kind of owned the jungle around the bottom of it. And then the thing was completely
interlaced with tunnels, and the Viet Cong were in the tunnels. And so every once in a
while, the 25th would decide that they were going to go attack this mountain, and they—
this particular day, they sent a group out and they attacked it. And when they did, they
got into contact, so they called the Cobras to come fire support.
So I was with a Pink Team. I had an OH-6 with me and myself. And I contacted the
ground commander, and the guy’s telling me [unintelligible 00:30:50] shooting. There
was an Air Force-issue FAC above us, which was an OV-10 aircraft flying around above.
Above him was some F-4 Phantoms that were going to try to supply close air support to
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these guys on the ground. And so I called the guy on the ground, and I said, “Hey, the Air
Force wants you to pop smoke.” And the guy on the ground says, “Hey, no way. I’m not
doing that.” And I said, “Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’ll just—I’ll fly over your position and
you tell me when you’re—when I’m over the top of you, and then I’ll tell the Air Force
and they can do it that way.” And he said, “Okay.”
So I flew up. So now this puts me like maybe 250, 300 yards from the mountain, and I
got—I started seeing traces go by the aircraft, and so I transmitted—so I was talking to
the FAC on one radio and the guy on the ground on a different radio. And I called the
FAC up, and I said, “I’m taking fire.” And then I started hearing it. I could feel the
aircraft getting hit. And the next thing was I’m taking hits. And then the next thing that
happened was the engine quit. And I said, “I’m going down. Rotors in the green.” And so
we land. I did another autorotation, just like I did in flight school. Hey, the system
worked twice. That’s—so it’s got to be really good training.
And I got on the ground. We got on the ground, and there was a lieutenant in my front
seat, and he—the instant we hit the ground, he was gone. He just disappeared. And I
grabbed the classified stuff out of the aircraft, and zeroed our classified information and
jumped out of the aircraft and ran over a rice dyke that I—I landed in a—it was a dry
season, so I landed in a rice paddy that was dry. And the next thing that happened was the
OH-6 guy lands—my scout lands next to me and says, “Are you okay?” And I said,
“Yeah.” And he says, “Okay, Six,” Six, which is our CO, “is coming to pick you up.” So
they came and picked us up and away we went. The Cobra—I’d hit a rice—when I
landed, I’d hit a rice dyke and knocked the skids out from underneath the aircraft, but it
just stayed upright. No other damage. And a Chinook came in the same day and hauled it
back.
Thinking back to your previous question, I think I know which mission you were asking
about, if you want to go there?
BF:
Yeah, please.
TO:
So this was when I was a new guy, a new aircraft commander. So the progression was,
when you got in country, you sat in the front seat of the Cobra. You were the gunner, and
you learned the mission. You learned how to talk on the radio. You learned how to
navigate around. You learned the area of operations so you could find your way around
without having to look at a map constantly. And you shot the turreted weapons on the
aircraft. So there was a minigun and a 40-millimeter grenade launcher. Once you went
through that training, then you would get transitioned—or you’d be moved to the
backseat, where you would fly—you physically flew the aircraft. The front seat had a set
of controls. They were side-arm controls like an F-16. As an instructor pilot, they were
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wonderful. I loved flying the Cobra and teaching in the Cobra. It was a wonderful
aircraft. Loved the side-arm controls.
So I got in the back seat, and I was being trained. So this is like—I started flying combat
missions in November of ’69, and in December, they made me an aircraft commander. So
you can—the pressure was always on. And I was an aircraft commander, so now my job
was I was the wingman. I was the number two guy in a gunship formation. I wasn’t
allowed to take—to cover a scout yet because that’s pretty sensitive. You got to be up—
pretty astute at that point. You got to be thinking all the time, covering a scout. So I’m
flying wingman, and we’re going up—the guys—the LRRPs are in contact. We’re a fire
team, so that mean it’s—this is pretty urgent, and this is a pretty big deal. They’ve got
two aircraft. It’s daytime, and we’re heading north and up the main supply route. And so
my job as the wingman was I was to call the artillery people and tell them where I was
going and get clearance to make sure that we weren’t flying through any gun target lines,
so they—or through where the artillery rounds were going.
So I call up the artillery, and I tell them where I’m at, tell them where we’re going, and
they say, “You’re in the middle of a GT line.” So that just scared the ever-loving bejesus
out of me because I’m probably—a week before we’d had a—one of the guys at night
had been hit be a 105 round. Luckily, the round was so new out of the tube or so—it had
an arm, so it just went through as a big bullet through a UH-1. So I was concerned that
these guys could actually hit a helicopter.
So as I’m keying the mic, which is on the stick, I key the mic to transmit to lead that
we’re in the gun target line. I also slammed the cyclic stick hard right and rolled the
aircraft completely upside down. So I’ve got—now I’ve got a Cobra upside down. Well,
helicopters, especially Bell helicopters, are not designed to fly upside down at all. And
once I’m upside down and the world is in the wrong place, that scares me again, so I roll
the aircraft right side up again. And then I think, “Nope, I’m in the gun target line. I got
to do something.” So then I had—I realized—so at that point, I saw lead. He was already
probably 130 or 140 degrees. He was heading—he knew what he was doing. He was
getting out of the way. So I rolled my aircraft upside down, and I did what would be in
the fixed-wing parley a split-S. I did a—and after I did it, I realized, “Oh, I kept a positive
G on the aircraft the whole time.” And that was the secret to the Cobra, was it really
wasn’t—you couldn’t fly at negative G. You had to maintain a positive G on the aircraft.
So I rolled the aircraft upside down, and eventually we exited the gun target line and
went up and did the thing. I think that was the story you were talking about.
BF:
Yes. Yes, it was.
TO:
I was slow, but I’ll get there.
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0038:04
[Personal impact of the Vietnam War]
BF:
How did the Vietnam War change you?
TO:
Like I said, I always thought of it as a job and the most important thing that I could do.
So when I left there, I was on the UH-1 and—[chokes up]—sorry. I remember my
aircraft was right next to us. And I thought I was leaving a job not done. I just felt that it
was—that I was abandoning my other buddies. Sorry. [wipes away tears]
[production talk]
00:38:04
[Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache]
BF:
Did you ever want to travel back to Vietnam after—
TO:
I’m not interested. Like I said, the Army, through their wisdom, made me an instructor
pilot. I came back from Vietnam with 1,200 hours—at that point, 1,300 hours of
helicopter time, which made me more than qualified to be an instructor. And they sent me
to—back to Savannah. So part of flight school was—half of it was at Fort Rucker, and
half of it was—half the class went to Fort Rucker, half the class went to Savannah,
Georgia to Hunter Army Airfield. I went to the Hunter Army Airfield group and went
right from flight school to Cobra school to Vietnam and back—right back to Savannah to
Hunter to teach people to fly Cobras. And then they made me an instructor, and then
within a year of that I was transitioned to be an instructors’ instructor, and I did that for
the rest of my career. So for 18-plus years, I was—no, 19 years, I was an instructors’
instructor of one form or another.
BF:
An instructors’ instructor, that’s impressive. Later you flew the AH-64 Apache attack
helicopter. How did that differ from flying the Cobra?
TO:
So in an—an Apache is—it’s actually—so I flew an A-model Apache. I flew—I was in
what they called the IKPT, which was the Initial and Key Personnel Training. I was one
of the first 13 pilots to fly production aircraft. When I started flying, we had four
helicopters total. Now they’ve got a thousand or something like that. So I was the top of
the pyramid. My job was to train the cadre of people that would teach people to fly the
Apache. And the Apache was a very complex—it had 13 different computers. It had
multiple ways that you interfaced with the—the human interface to the computers was
different depending on if you were talking to the Doppler radar, which was our
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navigation system, or if you were talking to the fire control computer. There was different
ways that you had to enter data into them. So it was a complex and difficult aircraft to fly.
The interesting thing was—well, there were several interesting things. So the Cobra
was—when they built it, it was a VFR aircraft. It had—it never had a VOR, it never had
any instrument navigation equipment in it, so it was never certified to fly IFR, Instrument
Flight Rules. But the Apache was, and it had—the Apache had two engines, and the
Cobra only had one, so that was—that made a significant difference. And the other thing
was is that, like I said earlier, the Cobra couldn’t—if you put everything on it, even the
last models, which was an S-model Cobra—so I started in a G-model, and by the time I
had finished flying Cobras, we were at S, was the model, which at that point was an
antitank aircraft and was designed to fly as close to the ground as possible. But you still
couldn’t carry all the missiles and a full load of gas.
The Apache, I could put all the gas in it I wanted, fill the tanks up. I could put all the
bullets on it I wanted, all the .30-caliber machine—or cannon ammunition on it, all the
Hellfire missiles, and fill up the rocket pods or I could carry 16 Hellfire missiles. And
then I could throw four or five cases of C-rations in the back, and I could throw my duffel
bag in there, and I could throw my ditty kit in there, and I could throw some stuff for the
guys down the line that had asked for something, and I’d still be under gross weight. It
was a fabulous aircraft to fly. It was—unlike the Cobra, it was capable of negative-G
flight. And it was just fantastic.
BF:
Any exciting stories about the Apache?
TO:
Well, so the Apache—for me, the Apache, I was—like I said, I was at the top of the
pyramid and I was towards the end of my career, so I was really teaching instructors to be
instructors—I was teaching—I was actually—ran the platoon that ran—that taught the
instructors to be instructors in Apaches. So we were—so that meant that you had to know
both seats, how they work. A typical line pilot tends to get assigned a particular seat and
that’s it. Apache has two different, very distinctive systems on it. One’s called Pilot Night
Vision, or PNVS. And that Pilot Night Vision System is a monocle that you wear over
your right eye, and it’s essentially—for the aviators, it’s a heads-up display that—but it
does something else. It also projects a FLIR image, an infrared image of the world around
you to your right eye. And so you can look—and it’s tracked by—you’ve got a head
tracker on your helmet, and it—the turret follows your head. The only problem is is that
that turret is—the sensor is not your eyeball here, but the sensor in front of the aircraft,
which is 13 feet in front of you and about two feet down, so it’s a little—you get a little
disoriented when you start moving your head around a lot. But it’s essentially designed to
be instantaneously—when you move your head, that’s where it’s going to look right
there.
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There’s a reticle for the cannon, so I could shoot the cannon off axis of the aircraft, where
in a Cobra, the only way I could shoot the turreted weapons was just to lock them up with
the center line of the aircraft and shoot them straight ahead. So if I spot something—so if
my gunner’s busy shooting in an Apache, if my gunner’s shooting the missiles or
tracking a target with the targeting system, then I can use the cannon for self-defense,
because now we’re flying the aircraft—instead of the 1,500 feet, now the strategy is to fly
as close to the ground as you can to put as many obstacles between you and the bad guys
as you can. The good news is is that you’re shooting a missile that’s got a range in excess
of five miles, so you just sit there and plunk at them and they don’t—the first thing they
know is when something starts blowing up. They don’t have any idea that they’re being
engaged.
So the Pilot Night Vision system has like four modes of symbology on your helmet. You
control that through another button on your cyclic stick. So if you’re at a hover, you’ve
got one set of symbology. As you transition from a hover, then you can switch to a
transitional one where you actually have an attitude indicator. And then there’s a third
mode—or a third and fourth mode where you’re up and away flying. And there’s also a
precision hovering mode, so if you’re in a hover hole where you don’t have a lot of
clearance—the rotor diameter’s 48 feet, so if you’re in a 60-foot-wide hole, you don’t
want to be drifting around. You want to stay put. So there was a method where you could
instantaneously drop a mark and it would—the aircraft could then—through your
symbology, you could keep the aircraft in a very tight position.
The Apache doesn’t have an autopilot. All the helicopters that I flew didn’t have
autopilots. You flew the aircraft 100% of the time. Unlike a fixed-wing, you never let go,
because if you let go, something bad is going to happen. So that was the backseat. So the
guy in the back in an Apache, he’s the driver. He’s driving the helicopter. The guy in the
front has weapon systems that, on the wings, are 2.75 or 70-millimeter rockets that are
the same—those are the same rockets that we used in Vietnam. Different warheads, so
they were a little more effective. And then some—they have a later model that’s got a
little more horsepower in the rocket motor itself.
There was also the Hellfire missiles. They’re a—at that time, they were laser seekers. So
the targeting system had a laser that we put a spot on the target and as long as that spot
was on the target the missile would fly to the target. The TOW missile system, which was
on the Cobras, was a wire-guided missile. Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wireguided. That’s TOW. And so what that meant was I had to put a set of crosshairs for a
target from my sighting station on the target and then keep that crosshairs on the target
until such time as the missile struck the target. And the signals were computed in the
aircraft and sent via two wires to the missile as it was going down range. That missile had
a range of 3,750 meters. That was it. That was as long as the wires. Once the wires broke,
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the missile just—by that time, it wasn’t going very fast and would essentially fall to the
ground.
The Hellfire missile, you can launch it at—there’s several different launch methods. You
can—but the idea is that you could launch a missile and then put a—you could have the
missile lock on before you launched the missile. So you put a spot on the target, launch
the missile, the missile follows the spot to that target. Or you could launch the missiles—
we would practice launching sequentially a series of missiles. And you’d put the spot on
the target. The first missile would go to that spot. Once it impacted, you’d move it to the
next target. So you could become very effective. Sixteen Hellfires would—were very
effective at knocking out tanks. The Hellfire missile was probably twice as big as the
TOW missile.
00:50:39
[Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing]
BF:
Now, after 20 years in the Army, you went on to a second career with Rockwell Collins,
which does cockpit instrumentation systems. What did you do at Rockwell?
TO:
Well, so I went there as an Apache subject matter expert. And what my job was was
human factors. We were trying to figure out how to make it easier to talk to all those
computers and make it one system that you could enter data and it would go across the
aircraft. And we worked with McDonnell Douglas Helicopter, eventually Boeing, to
make that happen on the Apache. And then eventually, later model aircraft, they’ve got—
they had those types of systems.
That was the beginning of my career there. I ended up sort of being a firefighter.
Problems would pop up, and I was able to—the first example that I give is is we were
giving our critical design review to the Army on our Apache system, and I’d been at—
with the company maybe a month, maybe a month and a half, and I’d learned what the
engineers there wanted to do. And we were giving this briefing. There was probably 75
Army guys in the briefing room, a big theater, and the technical director for the aircraft
walks up to me from Rockwell and says, “Hey, so-and-so is—can’t show up. Can you do
this?” I said, “I guess so.” I had no idea what I was doing. But I walked up there, and I
gave them a presentation, and the Army guys all thought that was okay.
And from then on, it was like every time there was a problem, they’d come to me and
say, “Hey, can you do this or can you do that?” So I’ve done some very strange things,
like trying to sell GPS to farmers, back when this was just a concept. We were—
Rockwell was very early in the GPS business, built the very first satellites, and so they
were interested in trying to spread the architecture around and build different systems.
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And so we started outputting GPS on trains so that the train companies could understand
where their engines were, because they didn’t have systems that could transmit back to
them. And we were a radio company, so it was easy for us to figure out how to have a
location—now we knew where the location was, so now it was just a matter of
transmitting it. And then eventually we built—ended up selling systems to bus companies
and police departments so they could follow how buses followed around the cities or
could quickly assist policemen that needed help or those kinds of things. So it was kind
of a very interesting thing. I ran a program to test our system when we started putting the
GPS on the combines for corn harvesting and trying to figure out—how to figure out
yields and stuff like that, and that was pretty, pretty interesting stuff.
And after that, Rockwell decided that we should get back to our knitting and do avionics
and not all these other things. So they sold off that part of the company, and I had to
wander around and look for another job within the company. And I had—my son had
come out to the University of Washington to go to college here, and I’d been assigned to
Fort Lewis at one point during my Army career, and we really like the Northwest, so I
started nosing around to see what was out here. And there was a—at that time, there was
an airplane that Boeing was building called the 767-400, and they needed systems
engineers out here. So I was an engineering manager back in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, where
the headquarters is of the company. So I talked to the manager out here, and I came out
here as a systems engineer on that aircraft. And then within a few months, they promoted
me to be the engineering manager of the facility here, and I was—did that for 13 years.
And we built—after the 767, then I started—got right into what eventually became the
787. We actually started that in 1999.
BF:
Yeah, that was an exciting project, and that lasted over 10 years.
TO:
Absolutely. And it was very interesting because I’d never been around the development
of a commercial airplane before, so that was another learning experience to find all the
things that can happen and all the things that needed to happen. But eventually Rockwell
Collins built all the displays: the pilot controls, the throttle quadrants in the cockpit. And
as the engineering manager, I was the guy that, when the aircraft was going through flight
test, got the call at 3:00 in the morning: “Your system doesn’t work.” And so I would
come down to Boeing Field and the experimental test flight area and go troubleshoot the
airplane to figure out what we needed to do and what engineers I needed to get out here
to get the problem solved. That was the bad news. The good news was, 99% of the time,
the problem wasn’t us. It was some sensor in the aircraft that was not giving us the
information we needed or that system had failed. But it was—my wife always said, “You
were so—you’re so polite on the phone when those guys call. I would be so mad.”
[laughs] But—
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BF:
Part of the job.
TO:
That was part of the job.
00:57:10
[Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner]
BF:
You’re also an A&P mechanic and an aircraft owner. Tell us about that.
TO:
Yeah. So I became an A&P. Probably the best thing I ever did was do—was take the
FAA test while I was still at Northrop to become an A&P. And then like I said, I went to
work for—as an A&P with Brittain Industries, which got me started in avionics. One of
the interesting things is is that I’m very mechanically inclined and I like working with my
hands, but me and electronics don’t get along. So how I ever got into an electronics
company and did as much as I did is hard to believe. Because my first radio was a
Heathkit, and it—when I plugged it in, it smoked and that was it. I said, “Okay, I’m not
doing that again.”
But that’s just—so I was—as an A&P, it was on my Army record, so I ended up also—
besides being an instructor pilot for any unit I went to for Cobras, I also ended up being,
in a lot of units, the maintenance officer for the Cobras, which was a heck of a lot of fun.
I had a tour in Korea where we were—the Cobra was an interesting aircraft to fly because
it changed throughout my career. I flew it for almost—well, for about 14 years, and
during that 14 years the aircraft changed tremendously. It went from an underpowered,
not-terribly-reliable helicopter to a very mature, very deadly, extremely capable
helicopter.
And so in Korea, I was the maintenance officer, and we were—at that point, Bell was
improving the rotorheads, which we’d had a lot of problems in Vietnam with dust getting
into the bearings and the rotorheads, and they were—and the rotorheads were failing.
And helicopter pilots don’t like rotorheads that fail. So they’d come up with a different
bearing design that used what they called elastomeric, which is basically a great big
rubber shock absorber, as opposed to a bearing, so you had a flex in the rubber. And we
put those on the aircraft, and I was astounded when I—the first time I test flew one with
that. And I’d tracked the rotor system, and the aircraft was just so much smoother. And
anytime you could take vibrations out of the helicopters, that just made all the other
systems much more happy.
00:59:54
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[Involvement with The Museum of Flight]
BF:
Now you’re a volunteer at The Museum of Flight and sharing your aviation knowledge.
You’ve served the Museum in many roles. What things have you done at the Museum?
TO:
So I was a—well, I started out as a gallery ambassador, and then I worked in the area that
we called the—ah, crud, lost it—the Airpark. So I worked in the Airpark giving—talking
about all the airplanes we had parked outside, which at the time was the 747, the Air
Force One, there was the 737, and the Connie. And we would control the people as
they’d go through the aircraft. And then in the summertime, I would do—we would bring
our B-17 out of the hangar, park it on the lawn in front of the Museum, and I would give
internal and external tours of the B-17.
And then I started helping repair the 747—restore the 747. The 747 was the very first 747
ever built, was used by Boeing for many, many years as a test platform, and had been
kind of abused in its later life, and so we were trying to restore it back to some semblance
of a working aircraft. And so I got involved in fixing things while it was still outside.
Now that we have the Aviation Pavilion, it’s under cover, so it’s a lot better taken care of
than it was before.
And I got involved in the B-29 as a—working on the pressurization system for that
aircraft. Then I became a docent, and then I ended up on the—with my training
background, I ended up on the Docent Training Committee and helped bring new docents
into our community.
BF:
Very good. Now, we’re aware that you donated items to the Museum’s collection.
TO:
Yup.
BF:
What are the most significant items you donated?
TO:
Well, I think—so I was the executor of my father’s estate, and I think that’s really—from
a historical perspective, I think that’s the jewel in the crown. The stuff that I gave was
that—my personal stuff was my Army career and some of some of the Rockwell stuff.
My father’s stuff goes from the time that he was an engineering student very much like
me. He was an A&P. He wasn’t an A&P, but he was going to school and flying on
airplanes as a test observer and writing down—back then, they didn’t have telemetry in
electronics. They would throw somebody in the back and hand them a piece of paper, and
the guy’d say, “Okay. That was a 1.2.” And he’d write down 1.2. He had no idea what it
meant, but he wrote it down. And so they—that’s the way they gathered data back then.
And this was all before World War II. He became a—went through flight school very
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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early in World War II, flew combat missions in B-25s in Alaska, and then spent 30 years
in the military.
When he retired, he was working at the executive offices of the White House as the
communications officer, responsible for putting the radios on Air Force One. So he was
the comms guy for Air Force One and anything that was involved in the President’s
communications. So his stuff is, you know, his—lots of boxes. Lot of stuff.
BF:
What motivated you to donate?
TO:
Well, so I had a—so my dad was a son of the Depression, and as I have learned over the
years, they didn’t throw anything away. I found stuff from—I found receipts from 1940s
that—a stick of gum or whatever. I mean, it was astounding. But he never threw away
any of his—he had boxes and boxes and boxes of his military stuff, and so there’s stuff
like—he worked on projects like the Distant Early Warning Systems for intercontinental
ballistic missiles coming over the poles. He did all kinds of different things like that. He
was very involved in the early missile systems and the early manned missions in some
electronics fashion. So he had a lot of that kind of background, a lot of that kind of
information.
He also wrote an autobiography, and he kind of detailed his flight school experience. And
that kind of got me started in the thing, along with the B-17, was starting to go back and
read about these guys, how they got through flight school and then comparing that to
what my experience in flight school was like. And then here recently, I’ve done a little
reading on the guys that had gone through the Navy flight school, so it’s—and it’s kind
of interesting how they—they all have different flavors, but they—we all end up with
about the same amount of hours and about the—probably the same level of knowledge
when you come rolling out the door.
01:05:47
[Closing thoughts]
BF:
Any last topics we may have missed or that you’d just like to talk about?
TO:
[pauses] I don’t—my experience here at the Museum has been just fantastic. And as you
know, Bruce, unfortunately, I’m leaving to join my family on the East Coast.
BF:
Unfortunately for us, yes.
TO:
So that’s bittersweet. It’s sort of like my thing with Vietnam in that I feel like I’m leaving
without the job being completed and—but it was very pleasurable and a wonderful group
to work with.
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BF:
And any final thoughts you’d like to leave for students or future researchers regarding
your career in aviation?
TO:
Well, I guess I’d like to see people go look at the helicopters. And I realize that I’m kind
of prejudice that way. But I think that the books that I have read tend to glorify it a little
bit, and I think that the vast majority of guys that went over there really worked hard to
make—to support the ground troops, no matter what service they were in. So I’d like—I
think that I’d like to see a little more research. I’d dearly love to see the Museum get
more than just the UH-1 to represent some other facets of the aviation experience there.
We have lots of fixed-wings, but there was a whole group of guys that worked pretty hard
to support everybody.
01:07:42
[Favorite aircraft engine]
BF:
Absolutely. Now, our videographer today has been Peder Nelson. Peder, do you have any
additional questions?
PEDER NELSON: Like, I guess I was intrigued by your early statement about the—of engine
that you worked on with your own personal aircraft or that you like tinkering with pieces.
And I was wondering if there was any—if you had a favorite aircraft engine?
TO:
Well, I’m partial to Lycomings because that happened to be the engine that was in the
airplane. I am much—my experience with helicopters, after the first 100 hours of flight
school, was all with turbine engines. And you’d think, “Well, that means that he really
likes turbines.” But actually, radials and inlines and reciprocating and those massively
complex engines fascinate me. That’s probably why—I just—why I stayed an active
mechanic for so long was because I just—I really liked that and figuring out what’s
wrong, be it a car or an airplane or a boat. I’ve done a little bit of everything.
BF:
Great career. Tom, thank you for taking the time and letting us record this piece of
history from someone who lived it. And thank you so much for your service. We salute
you.
01:09:25
[B-29 restoration project]
BF:
A couple of additional questions from Kelci Hopp [Oral History Administrator at The
Museum of Flight] here.
TO:
Okay. Hey, the best way—I’ll be happy—I can answer questions. I have a hard time
adlibbing, but a question usually—
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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BF:
Just two more here.
TO:
Okay.
BF:
Can you talk a little bit more about your work on the B-29 restoration?
TO:
Well, so the B-29 is a very big airplane, and it was very—it’s very complex. There’s a
great group of guys working on it, and so I was just one little piece. And so if I may tell a
quick joke—and it probably won’t go over very well, but—so this kid asks his father,
“What do you do as an engineer?” And the dad says, “Well, I design airplane parts.” And
so they’re out at the airport, and the kid says, “Well, Dad, is that the airplane you
designed?” And he says, “No, no, no. I just designed a piece on the front landing gear.”
And the kid says, “Well, where was that?” He says, “Oh, that’s in that front one, right
there in front.” “Oh yeah, Dad, did you design that?” And the kid says—and the father
says, “No, no. You see halfway up, there’s a bracket on the left-hand side there?” And the
kid says, “Yeah, yeah. Did you design that?” And he says, “No, no, no, I didn’t design—
see that bolt that’s holding that bracket?” “Yeah, yeah.” “That’s what I designed.”
And so that’s sort of what I did on the B-29. It was a little piece of a very big airplane.
And the airplane was—after the war—so it flew in the war, flew—it bombed Japan, it
then came back and was converted to a tanker. Well, when they converted it to a tanker,
they stripped a whole bunch of stuff out of it to make it lighter. Just like the Cobra, they
were trying to carry as much gas as they could and anything that they didn’t need they
didn’t put in it. So they ripped out most of the pressurization system on the aircraft. And
so what we’re trying to do is return it to what it was like when it flew over Japan, and so
that meant it needed a pressurization system. Well, there’s valves missing. There’s
ductwork missing. There’s all kinds of stuff like that.
So I said, “Okay, I’ll work on the pressurization system.” And so I started on it, and there
were a couple of valves, and so I did things like—I literally got pictures of the valves,
and then I got some drawings of the valves, and I made these valves in my garage. So
they look just like what was on the airplane, but please don’t run any hot air through them
because they’re all made of papier-mâché and stuff like that. And then I put the ductwork
in, and I put some of the insulation stuff. So when you—most of the stuff was done—it’s
actually in a part of the airplane that hardly anybody ever sees because it’s actually up
over the wing in the bomb bay. So you have to go inside the bomb bay, in the aft bomb
bay, and look forward to the wing, and there’s this valve. And eventually there’ll be some
cabling and other stuff up there that will indicate it’s just part of that pressurization
system that ran through the whole airplane.
01:12:44
2018 © The Museum of Flight
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[Overlap with his father’s military career]
BF:
All right. And the second question is did you and your father’s military careers overlap at
all?
TO:
Yes. Not a lot. The funny story there was I was—so I was in flight school, and we got a
Christmas break. So that meant I’d gotten through the warrant officer training and now
we were actually starting to fly—or we were scheduled to fly in January. And so I got a
Christmas break. And I was married, so I went back to Washington, D.C. to my mom and
dad’s house. And my wife was there. And my dad had some official military function. So
I’m—at that point, I am an E5—rank wise, I’m an E5.
And they—my mother or my dad—somebody wanted something taken to my dad. So,
“Tom, go do it.” So I said, “Okay.” So I jump in the car, and I go down to wherever this
thing is. And I walk into this place, and the first person I bump into is like a three-star
and the next guy’s a four-star. And I’m going, “Holy mackerel. What am I doing here?” I
wasn’t in uniform, but I was still very intimidated by all of this. And kind of sheepishly
went up and handed my father’s—whatever the piece of paper or whatever he needed.
And then I went off—went back to flight school at the end of that.
I can’t remember the date that he retired, but it was only like a year or two overlap. There
wasn’t a lot. I do remember he was in uniform when I graduated from flight school,
which would have been in July of ‘69.
BF:
Any last questions? All right. As they say in the business, “It’s a wrap.”
TO:
Thanks. Thank you. It was a pleasure.
BF:
Thank you.
01:14:54
[END OF INTERVIEW]
2018 © The Museum of Flight
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
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2013-current
Creator
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Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
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oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
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Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
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2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Olsson_Thomas.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Thomas, Olsson W.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Florsheim, Bruce
Biographical Text
<p>Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is a Vietnam War veteran who served with the United States Army as a helicopter pilot and flight instructor. He was born in the mid-1940s in Kentfield, California to Ward T. Olsson and Wilma E. Olsson. His father was a career officer with the U.S. Air Force, and his mother was a housewife and hospital volunteer.</p>
<p>After graduating from high school, Olsson attended the Northrop Institute of Technology (California), where he studied aircraft maintenance engineering. While in college, he became a certified A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and worked for Brittain Industries helping to install aircraft autopilot systems.</p>
<p>In July 1968, knowing that he would likely soon be drafted, Olsson opted to join the U.S. Army and become an aviator. He completed training at Fort Polk (Louisiana) and Fort Wolters (Texas), learning to fly on the Hughes 269 helicopter. He next underwent training in the Bell AH-1 Cobra at Hunter Army Airfield (Georgia) and was deployed to Southeast Asia. Over the course of his combat tour, he flew a mix of attack, visual reconnaissance, ground support, and evacuation missions and accumulated over 1,300 hours of helicopter flight time.</p>
<p>Returning to the United States, Olsson served the rest of his military career as an instructor pilot in the Bell AH-1 Cobra and Hughes AH-64A Apache. He retired in 1988 at the rank of Chief Warrant Officer 4. As a civilian, he worked for Rockwell Collins as a human factors engineer and for the Boeing Company as a systems engineer and engineering manager. His projects at Boeing included the 767-400 and 787 Dreamliner.</p>
<p>Olsson’s volunteer work at The Museum of Flight includes serving on the Docent Corps and participating in the restoration efforts of the Boeing 747 and Boeing B-29 Superfortress. He also donated materials to the Museum from his and his father’s military careers.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OH_Olsson_Thomas
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomas W. Olsson oral history interview
Language
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English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
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The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with Thomas W. "Tom" Olsson and interviewer Bruce Florsheim, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, October 24, 2018.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-24
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Cambodia
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Bell AH-1 Cobra Series
Boeing Company
Engineers
Helicopter pilots
Hughes AH-64A Apache
Hughes OH-6 Cayuse (Type 369H) Family
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Rockwell Collins (Firm)
Thomas, Olsson W.
United States. Army
United States. Army. Infantry Division, 25th
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Airplanes--Conservation and restoration
Boeing Company--Employees
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 14 min., 54 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Vietnam War veteran Thomas W. “Tom” Olsson is interviewed about his military service as a helicopter pilot with the United States Army. He discusses his combat tours in Southeast Asia flying the Bell AH-1 Cobra gunship and describes his later assignments as a flight instructor for the Cobra and the Hughes AH-64 Apache. He also touches on his post-military careers with Rockwell Collins and the Boeing Company and on his volunteer work at The Museum of Flight.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- Early aviation experiences -- Favorite aircraft -- U.S. Army training -- Service in Vietnam as a Bell AH-1 Cobra pilot -- Personal impact of the Vietnam War -- Instructor assignments and flying the Hughes AH-64 Apache -- Career with Rockwell Collins and Boeing -- Experiences as an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic and aircraft owner -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight -- Closing thoughts -- Favorite aircraft engine -- B-29 restoration project -- Overlap with his father’s military career
-
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/4c458eae1b0917feffeed95491ca996f.mp4
b994941aa0edfa097558b77524365fbc
https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/files/original/c03335a09804480d7f176c7c3826493d.pdf
f57e9c5423636be4959433cc707837f3
PDF Text
Text
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
The Museum of Flight
Seattle, Washington
Jim Farmer
Interviewed by: John Barth and Mike Martinez
Date: October 26, 2017
Location: Everett, Washington
This interview was made possible with generous support from
Mary Kay and Michael Hallman
2017 © The Museum of Flight
�2
Abstract:
Vietnam War veteran James “Jim” Farmer is interviewed about his military service as a Boeing
B-52 Stratofortress pilot. He discusses his wartime experiences in Southeast Asia, including his
participation in Operations Linebacker I and Linebacker II, and shares other highlights from his
U.S. Air Force service. He also discusses his involvement with The Museum of Flight and his
work on Project Welcome Home, the Museum’s campaign to construct a memorial park paying
tribute to Vietnam War veterans.
Biography:
James “Jim” Farmer is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a pilot aboard the Boeing B-52
Stratofortress. He was born and raised in Long Island, New York. His father was a World War II
veteran who worked for a plumbing supply company. His mother worked as a nurse’s aide.
In 1969, Farmer graduated from Adelphi University (New York) with a degree in Business
Administration. He then joined the U.S. Air Force and attended Officer Training School at
Lackland Air Force Base (Texas). After completing Undergraduate Pilot Training, he was
assigned to the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress at March Air Force Base (California).
During the Vietnam War, Farmer served four rotations in Southeast Asia. He participated in
Operations Linebacker I and Linebacker II and was ultimately promoted to aircraft commander.
In 1972, his B-52 was shot down by a surface-to-air missile over North Vietnam. He and most of
his crew were successfully rescued from behind enemy lines. Over the course of his wartime
service, he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Medal, and the Purple Heart.
After completing his combat tours, Farmer’s subsequent assignments included serving nuclear
alert at March AFB and participating in the Strategic Air Command Bombing and Navigation
Competition. He left the service in the mid-1970s and relocated to Seattle, Washington, where he
embarked on a career in the finance industry. During his 30-plus years in the field, he worked for
Smith Barney, Kidder Peabody, and Wells Fargo.
Farmer has served on the board of several nonprofit organizations, including the Boy Scouts of
America, Rotary Club, and The Museum of Flight. He also served on the Project Welcome
Committee, spearheading efforts to restore the Museum’s B-52 aircraft and construct a memorial
park paying tribute to Vietnam War veterans. As of 2020, he is an active Museum Trustee,
serving on the Board’s Executive Committee.
Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by
interviewee.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
�3
Interviewer:
John Barth is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps, which he joined in 2016. He
has over 30 years of experience in the aerospace industry, including manufacturing, supervision
and management, and research and development.
Mike Martinez is a member of The Museum of Flight Docent Corps. He worked as a
Communications and IT Engineer with AT&T until his retirement in 1999 and has a background
in IT support, videography, media editing, and studio recording. In addition to his regular Docent
duties, he also serves on the Museum’s Oral History Team.
Restrictions:
Permission to publish material from The Museum of Flight Oral History Program must be
obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Videography:
Videography by Peder Nelson, TMOF Exhibits Developer.
Transcript:
Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services. Reviewed by TMOF volunteers and staff.
2017 © The Museum of Flight
�4
Index:
Introduction and personal background .......................................................................................................... 5
College years................................................................................................................................................. 7
Air Force flight training ................................................................................................................................ 8
Thoughts on the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress............................................................................................... 10
Service in Southeast Asia............................................................................................................................ 11
Return to the United States and participation in the Strategic Air Command Bombing and Navigation
Competition................................................................................................................................................. 16
Influence of military service ....................................................................................................................... 18
Post-military career and hobbies ................................................................................................................. 18
Involvement with The Museum of Flight ................................................................................................... 20
Choosing between bombers and fighters .................................................................................................... 23
Crewmates................................................................................................................................................... 24
On being shot down and rescued behind enemy lines ................................................................................ 25
The Museum’s B-52 ................................................................................................................................... 30
Closing thoughts ......................................................................................................................................... 31
2017 © The Museum of Flight
�5
Jim Farmer
[START OF INTERVIEW]
00:00:00
[Introduction and personal background]
JOHN BARTH:
My name is John Barth, and it is October 26th, 2017, ten o’clock—10:00
a.m. in the morning, and we are at Museum of Flight’s Restoration Center in Everett,
Washington. We’re here to interview Jim Farmer. Thank you for taking the time to
participate in the oral history program. Can you state and spell your name for us, Jim?
JIM FARMER:
Yeah. James Farmer. F-A-R-M-E-R.
JB:
Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and their background? Maybe your
grandparents?
JF:
I grew up on Long Island. Very blue-collar family. My dad worked for the local
plumbing supply company, and his job was to load the delivery trucks with all the pipes
and gear that is necessary to build a house with plumbing and deliver it to a job site and
unload it. So a very physical job. My mother was a nurse’s aide. And my dad had served
in World War II in the Navy in the Pacific. And as it turns out, I—much of my family
goes back—my grandfather, his father was in the Army during World War I, and my
namesake, James Farmer, was my grandfather’s uncle, died in the Spanish-American
War. And my grandfather, John Farmer, came over from Ireland in—during the Great
Famine, was a soldier that was wounded several times during the Civil War. So I’ve got a
long history of family participating in the service.
JB:
You certainly do. So you were born then on Long—in Long Island?
JF:
Yeah, Huntington. Huntington, Long Island.
JB:
Okay. And tell us about what it was like growing up there.
JF:
Huntington is a community on the water, north shore of Long Island, and it was a—I
don’t how it—it was a good time to grow up. We didn’t have problems like they have
today. We had lot of personal freedom as far as youths. You know, we’d just got on a
bike and be gone all day and come back. And some of us participated in sports in school.
Some didn’t. Anyway, it was just a—it was a good place to grow up. It was a good place
to grow up.
JB:
You have brothers and sisters?
JF:
I have a sister, who is deceased. Yeah, so…
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JB:
What about your education? Primary school through high school?
JF:
Yeah. Education, went to—actually, went—I lived in one section of town where, for
some reason, we went to a different elementary school every year. The town was rapidly
growing. They were building new schools every year, so all my elementary schools went
through different—actually different schools, so by the time I got to the junior high, I
pretty much knew everybody because I had been to so many different schools. And so
went to a school called Walt Whitman High School. That was in South Huntington. And
anyway, I just—high school. And I was reasonably active in high school. Didn’t—I
worked a lot. I had some kind of a—pretty much always had a job of some kind, so…
JB:
What about sports?
JF:
Ran track a little bit, just for something to do. I played basketball on the CYO [Catholic
Youth Organization] team for a couple of years, and that was a—that’s turned out to be a
lifelong endeavor of me. I’m still playing competitive basketball but with the correct age
group. [laughter] Yeah, so…
JB:
Any student body or anything?
JF:
Yeah, I was student—I was class treasurer. I was involved in a bunch of different things,
different clubs. So I was engaged.
JB:
Very engaged, yeah. So what was your first exposure to flight?
JF:
Well, actually, the first time, I was 12 years old. My dad was from Wisconsin, so I flew
to Wisconsin on a Connie, just like the one we’ve got out in front of the airport and—the
Museum. So that was my first experience. And then my next one was when I was in
college. I was a college senior, and I had taken the test for the Air Force Pilot Program,
had passed them, and before I accepted or joined it, I wanted to make sure that I liked
flying. So I went to the local airport and hired a guy to take me up and wring me out, and
I enjoyed it. So then I went—I said, “I can do this.” So then—so I had—that was my total
experience in terms of flying, once as a passenger and once in a little airplane.
JB:
So during your school years, back in high school and stuff, you said you worked a lot.
Were there some people that really influenced you toward career choices and where you
thought you should be headed?
JF:
Yeah, I did—I started working pretty much all the time when I was 12. Had a paper route
and really did that. One of the people on my paper route owned a toy store. He never did
buy the paper, although I bugged him for about two-and-a-half years to do so. When I—
his name is John [Eagen?], and when I got—when I quit my paper route, he gave me a
job working in his store, boxing things, shelving things, and worked there for about a
year-and-a-half. Other guys had come and gone. One day, he said, “I’m going to let you
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go.” And I was crushed. He says, “No. Because you got what it takes to be a good
salesman, and what you should do is go out and get a different kind of—but you need
experience. Go out and get a different job every month.” And I had so much respect for
this guy that I—that, along with the idea—I’d watch somebody come in. I’d be boxing
shelves and sweeping up, and some guy would walk in with a tie, driving a nice car.
They’d go sit in a—the boss’s office for a half an hour drinking coffee. And he was a
salesman, and I thought, “That’s a pretty good job.” [laughs] So anyway, as far as careers
go, John [Eagen?] was the person who influenced me the most. So I’m probably the only
person that went to college to become a salesman, so…
00:06:50
[College years]
JB:
How was college? Where’d you go and how was it?
JF:
I went to a school called Adelphi University, which is a small private liberal arts school
in Garden City, New York, 15 miles outside New York City on Long Island. I couldn’t
afford to go away to college, so I was a commuter. I commuted for the first three—twoand-a-half—three-and-a-half years, I commuted from home. I lived with my parents. And
the last semester I was able to live in a house with some fraternity brothers, so… Four
thousand students. It was a good school. Good—it was a good experience for me.
JB:
Did you continue on with your sports, student government, any of that?
JF:
Yeah. I was in student government there. I played freshman basketball. I was on the track
team a little bit. I played a team—a sport called team handball, which was—[laughs]. I
don’t know—people don’t know team handball. That was actually—it’s an Olympic
sport. It’s very popular in Europe. And at that time—this was 1968—there were three
team handball teams: one in New Jersey, one in Long Island, one in Brooklyn. And the
objective was—is to build a team to go to the ‘72 Olympics. And it’s a sport that’s played
on a basketball court. It’s similar to soccer, in that you’ve got a goalie at each—you’ve
got a two-meter by three-meter goal at each end. And rather than kick the ball into the
goal, you throw it. Okay. So you play with a ball slightly smaller than a volleyball. And
many of the skills are basketball skills. You dribble the ball, you pass, you do picks, and
things like this.
So it—so I played team handball as a club sport for two years. And as it turned out, when
I—in ‘72 Olympics, I was home on a rotation. We’d go for 120 days, come back for 30.
And the Olympics were going on, and I was watching TV, and they said, “And there’s a
sport called team handball.” And sure enough, there were the guys that—there was the
guys I had played ball with, and they were representing the United States. They got
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killed, of course, but that was kind of fun. So yeah, I played this sport called team
handball, which nobody’s ever heard of, so…
JB:
So if I remember right, you did a little TV?
JF:
Yeah, I—[laughs].
JB:
Competition here.
JF:
You’re probably talking to one of the luckiest people you’ve ever met because I’ve got—
this is one of the reasons. I got to go on a TV show out of New York City. I’d known a
couple of people that had participated in the show, and they were college students, and
they were tall. And I thought, “For whatever reason, they—that must be somebody they
like to attract.”
So my girlfriend’s sister got some tickets to the show, so I took a day off from work. And
my mother called me names I didn’t think she knew because I was being so irresponsible,
calling in sick to go—try to go to New York City to get on this TV show. I did get on the
TV show, and it was a—it was one of these deals that you were on for 15 minutes and
you were off. You didn’t keep going. And I won a bunch of stuff: a trip to Europe, a trip
to Canada, washer—luggage, dishwasher, jewelry, barbecue, and a brand new Firebird
convertible. [laughter] It was fun, yeah.
JB:
Where’d you go to Europe?
JF:
Oh, I—all over. A fraternity brother went with me, and we went all—spent two months
going around Europe. This was after we graduated. So my senior year, I applied to the
Air Force, was accepted. And they had a thing called the Delayed Enlistment Program, so
I wasn’t to go in until September, so that was great. I spent two months traveling around
Europe with my fraternity brother, so…
00:10:53
[Air Force flight training]
JB:
So it’s now September.
JF:
Right.
JB:
And you head where for your Air Force training?
JF:
Okay. Yeah, well, my mother was dying of cancer, and she died just between the time I
got back from Europe and the time I went in on September 10th. And so in that interim,
she died. And so I went into the Air Force on September 10th, and they were going to
send me to Lackland Air Force Base to go to Officer Training School. That’s a three-
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month school, and then after that they assign you to a—what they call a UPT,
Undergraduate Pilot Training, to a pilot training base, one of which—I think there were
eight or ten of them around the country.
JB:
Okay. So what did you train on as far as planes?
JF:
Well, the standard plane—you put—at that time, you had three aircraft. One was the T—
well, the T-41 is basically a Cessna 182 with a beefed-up engine. Just got a few hours in
that, and that was basically to weed out guys that couldn’t walk and chew gum at the
same time. Then you had a T-37, which was a very small jet, straight-wing jet. I think we
had about 90 hours in that. And then that aircraft, the pilot and instructor—the student
and the pilot—and the instructor sat side-by-side. And then for the last six months you
flew a high performance jet called the T-38. Had about 120 hours in that. And it was a
supersonic, high-performance aircraft. So Undergraduate Pilot Training was a year-long
endeavor, and so those are the three aircraft you flew, so…
JB:
So after that training assignment, where were you as—
JF:
I was assigned to a B-52 at March Air Force Base, which is in Southern Cal—Riverside,
California. My objective in pilot school was to fly a big jet. And that was a—you know,
that was clearly defined as a big jet, so…
JB:
What was that like? Describe—
JF:
Well, I didn’t—
JB:
Describe your training, you know.
JF:
Training on the T-38s or the B-52 or…?
JB:
Let’s go both of them.
JF:
Okay. Well, T-38 was a, you know—[laughs]. There is nothing more fun. It’s like a
Ferrari, you know. You take a Ferrari, but you do it in three dimensions. [laughs] And it
was just a gas to fly. And you got to fly formation. You got to fly cross-country. It was—
for a young guy, 22 years old, it was just, you know, the—and they paid you to do it. I
mean, it was just a great job. So everybody has very, very fond memories of their—of the
T-38 that they flew.
And then you get on—B-52 was—there’s other courses you take in between. Survival
school, weapons school, teach you about the weapons you would be dealing with. And
then they go to Castle Air Force Base in Northern California, which is for three months,
where they—where you learn to fly the B-52. So you’re up there—I forget—we had
maybe 10 flights. And you had new pilots, new navigators, new gunners. You know,
every—that was the training for all positions, so…
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00:14:30
[Thoughts on the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress]
JB:
The model next to you, the B-52, maybe you could take us a couple—just a few minutes
and tell us the differences in the models and which one this is.
JF:
Well, this is a—they built models A through H, H being the latest one. The Air Force still
has, I think, about 74, 75 Hs still flying. The earlier models, A through F or maybe E,
were different in that they had taller tails, larger wing tanks. And then the Gs and Hs had
shorter tails, chopped-off tails, more fuel capacity. You know, the plane was originally
designed to be an intercontinental nuclear bomb delivery system. So the big difference
between the G and the Hs are the—is the engines. The engines had fan jets, and earlier
models did not have fan jets. And the Hs are the only ones that are still flying, and they’re
flying in the—they still—they expect they’ll be around for another 20 years anyway, till
like 2040? So there are situations—I saw one here recently—where there’s a grandfather,
father, and son all have flown the B-52. So it’s been in service over 60 years, and they
expect it to be around at least another 20, so…
JB:
You mentioned fuel capacity. How many gallons did you take in your reserve tanks?
JF:
Well, in the D model, which I flew, had 3,000 gallons. The D—if you see a model of the
Ds, the tip tanks are much larger. And these, the Gs and Hs, their fuel capacity is about
700 gallons, so…
JB:
In the tip tanks?
JF:
The plane was designed to be a long-range plane. And then, of course, has air-to-air
refueling capabilities, so you can basically stay airborne indefinitely with air-to-air
refueling capability. In the old days, they used to have what they called Chrome Dome,
where they would fly with weapons and assigned targets over Alaska for up to 26 hours,
the crew, and they just maintained airborne alert. And then they—as part of what they
called MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction, so that both governments, the Russian
government and our government, were aware that if somebody, you know, pulled the
trigger, they’re—that’s the end of them. So anyway.
JB:
Did you participate in those drills?
JF:
No, I never did do a Chrome Dome. I was—actually, I was supposed to do one, and then
they canceled it. And the next day, we flew to Guam to participate—this is in the spring
of ‘72—to participate in the Vietnam conflict, so…
00:17:40
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[Service in Southeast Asia]
JB:
Spring of ‘72. That was during Linebacker I.
JF:
Right. Yeah.
JB:
So you participated in it?
JF:
Yeah, yeah.
JB:
And how many—that lasted quite a while. That lasted through October.
JF:
Well, B-52s had been flying in Southeast Asia for years and years and—but the United
States government had just decided to pull out of Vietnam, and they had a thing called
Vietnamization, where the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, were going to take over the
military conflict of their own. And we would provide them with air support, but our
ground troops are coming out, so… As our ground troops left, the North Vietnamese
decided it was time for a massive offensive in South Vietnam, and the United States
beef—radically beefed up its air support. And then so they sent a lot of B-52s over to
Guam and to South—and to Thailand, where we had been flying out of Thailand, and
increased the number of missions radically in support of the ground troops for—that were
now South Vietnamese, so... Primarily South Vietnamese.
JB:
So that’s what got them to the negotiation table, wouldn’t it?
JF:
Well, no, at that point—
JB:
Originally?
JF:
They were at the negotiation table, but it wasn’t going anywhere. From what I know that,
they’d been at that negotiation table for a couple of years and it was really a stall tactic on
the part of the North Vietnamese. And I guess in the latter part of that year they stepped
away from the negotiation table, and that’s when Nixon went—pushed on a thing called
Linebacker II, which is where they sent all the aircraft to Han—all the B-52s to Hanoi.
The Navy and the Air Force had been flying up there on smaller aircraft for a long time,
but the B-52s hadn’t been going up north until the very end there, so…
JB:
So a comparison between Linebacker I and II, how many missions did you fly a day?
How many missions were flown during the day and—
JF:
I think they—
JB:
Maybe a little bit more about that.
JF:
…the rate was 99 missions a day for B-52s out of the two bases, Thailand—U-Tapao in
Thailand and Guam. Personally, I think I flew around 120 missions. And the Ds flew out
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of both Guam and Thailand, so I got to—I did—I flew out of both those. The Gs, Gmodels only flew out of Guam, so—on their missions. Missions out of Guam were
typically nine to 10 hours, including an air-to-air refueling. And out of Thailand, they
were much shorter, like four to five hours, so…
JB:
During the height of Linebacker II, the planes were leaving very rapidly. I mean, it was
very—a very intense bombing program.
JF:
Yes, sir.
JB:
Can you—what was it like to be in that? I mean—
JF:
Oh, it was—
JB:
…you’re all taking off at once, you’re all—
JF:
Yeah, it was—Guam—flew out of Guam on that mission, and we—don’t hold me to the
numbers, but it was—it was like one B-52 taking off every minute for about an hour-anda-half. I think they called it the Giant Elephant Walk, where they had all these airplanes
and it was just—somebody was coordinating all this. And planes would form up in cells
of three, three-ship cells, and then go into the targets. There’s several really good books
about this whole thing, if anybody really wanted to read it. The Eleven Days of
Christmas, written by Marshall Michel, and then Flying from the Black Hole by Robert
Harder. Both excellent books on that whole activity.
JB:
So what was—your crews stick together? How did it work for the Air Force?
[unintelligible 00:21:56] same crew all the time?
JF:
Yeah, B-52 crews stayed together. Lot of crew coordination is involved. And our crew
had been a crew for, oh, a year-and-a-half or so. We originally—you know, our primary
mission was stateside alert, where we’d pull nuclear alert, either at March in California or
Ellsworth in South Dakota. And when you—so as a crew—there was six-person crew—
crew integrity was an important aspect in terms of crew coordination. So you stayed
together as a crew, unlike some of the guys that flew MAC with the airlift, they were just
all—you’d get somebody new all the time. So flying with different people, so… So you
became a family. That was your family. Your crew stayed together all in one room on
Guam, and they went out to eat together and, you know, just—it was like your family.
Yeah.
JB:
So during Linebacker II, you were shot down.
JF:
Yeah. So Linebacker II was the Eleven Days of Christmas. The Vietnam—North
Vietnamese had walked away from the negotiation table, and Nixon decided that during
the Christmas break, when Congress couldn’t complain or do anything about it, he
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decided he’s going to send the B-52s, along with Navy and other Air—other Navy and
Air Force resources in Hanoi, and bring in the big hammer. And that worked in that it
drove the North Vietnamese back to the negotiation table. And an immediate result out of
that was the release of the prisoners, the 591 prisoners that were in Hanoi, so… So
Linebacker II was a—you know, it was a big deal. We lost 15 B-52s along with other
aircraft in that process. And that’s all spelled out in those two books that I mentioned,
so…
JB:
So you were rescued behind enemy lines.
JF:
Yes. The crew—my crew was unique in that we were the only one to get shot down, land
in enemy territory, and get rescued. And the reason was we were able to keep the plane
flying long enough to get away from the populated area. So we were west of Hanoi about
a hundred miles. And of the six of us, five were rescued. One, Frank Gould, the
bombardier, otherwise known as radar navigator, was never found. So two of the guys,
the pilot and the navigator, pretty badly shot up. They ended up in the hospital, so—but
our rescue was a big deal. It was a big deal, so…
JB:
The skies must have just been covered with all kinds of surface-to-air missiles and
everything else trying to—
JF:
Yeah. We—yeah, going into Hanoi, it was, at that point, the most heavily defended city
in the world. They had all the most advanced missiles, antiaircraft missiles, that were
supplied to them by Russia. They had a lot of them. And our missions were what were
defined as a press-on mission. No matter what happens, you just keep going in and
deliver your weapons. And our—all our targets were hard military targets. The particular
target that our crew had was a railroad station. Railroad station, so… But there are a lot
of missiles, so…
JB:
So you mentioned rotations earlier. So this is your second rotation. And how long do
rotations last?
JF:
Typically they’re about 120 days, you know. You’d go over there and then be able to
come home for 30 days and go back again. So I did four rotations.
JB:
Which—was that in Guam all the time or did you alternate or—
JF:
I alternated between the two—between the two bases because I was flying a G-model—a
D-model, yeah.
JB:
Okay.
JF:
Yeah, so…
JB:
So life on base, when you’re not in your plane bombing, did you—[laughs].
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JF:
[laughs] Hey, we—
JB:
Did you take in much of the social aspects of the area?
JF:
Well, there’s not a whole lot to do on Guam. We had— you know, compared to other
vets, we had it very good. It was, you know—we had good meals. You know, we lived—
the air crews got to be in air-conditioned quarters. The place was mobbed with people,
but—the base was mobbed with people, but, you know, in Guam there’s not much to do.
Once you’ve seen the fish underwater, you’ve seen the fish underwater, so… But it—
[laughs]—we used to—there was a thing called Guam Bombs. You would buy a piece of
junk car for maybe 300 dollars. Literally, you could see the road through the holes in the
floor. But you’d drive that for a couple of months and then turn around to sell it to the
next crew for 250 bucks, and they’d have some form of transportation, so…
The big, exciting thing on Guam was to go to the Navy Exchange and—because the Navy
Exchange was better than the Air Force Exchange—and look at all the electronic gear
and things like that, so… Thailand was—you know, the Thai people are wonderful,
wonderful people, and that was better duty to be in Thailand. Missions out of Guam,
we’d probably fly three days a week because they were longer missions. Out of Thailand,
you’d—probably five days a week, missions out of Thailand. We were limited to 120
hours a month. I don’t know how that all adds up, but, you know, we pretty much maxed
out our flying every month, so…
JB:
So you said you liked the people in Thailand.
JF:
Oh, wonderful, wonderful people.
JB:
Wonderful people?
JF:
Yeah. You know, you come from this country, and you don’t realize how well-off and
how fortunate we are in terms of just stuff, you know. And these people, they, from our
point of view, had very, very little. You know, wore flip-flops, lived in just one notch
above a straw hut. But they’re—they had a wonderful attitude. I mean, the people—Land
of Smiles. It just—you know, it was a very good experience for a young person to see
that. The Thai people are great. Yeah. And their food’s great. [laughs]
JB:
So good food?
JF:
Yeah, great food.
JB:
Did they have any good festivals?
JF:
[laughs] I know where you’re going with this. You’re going for the Water Festival. So
yeah, they have different celebrations, and they have this one big celebration every year
called the Water Festival. It’s in April, I believe. It lasts for several days. And the whole
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country, it’s like one big party for the whole country. We participated on base and
probably took it a little bit overboard, dousing each other with buckets of water. And we
got a little silly, yeah. I remember the O Club probably had about an inch of water on the
floor. The—whatever. We’d do some crazy, crazy things, dousing each other with
buckets.
I remember this one woman—one wife showed up, and she gets—steps out of the car.
Her husband was off on a mission. She steps out of the car, and she gets blasted with,
like, four buckets of water. And she had a great attitude—you know, she had just spent
like 26 hours to get there, and she had a great attitude. She wanted to put her bathing suit
on and join the party. And she—it could have gone the other way. [laughs]
JB:
Sounds like a good time.
JF:
Yeah, it was.
JB:
So your third rotation. That was significant for you.
JF:
Well, yeah, third rotation, I went—second rotation, I got shot down. They sent me home.
I was home for a couple of months, went back on the third rotation. And at that point, we
were still flying missions. Everybody—the prisoners were home. Everybody was home.
Well, almost everybody. But we were flying missions out of Thailand in support of the
battle against the Khmer Rouge. I didn’t really understand what was going on. I’m still
learning about it. But the Khmer Rouge was the Communist insurgency within
Cambodia. They ultimately did win over there. But so we were flying—we were flying
missions in Cambodia. And also on that trip, I upgraded from a copilot to an aircraft
commander, so…
JB:
That made you the youngest, didn’t it?
JF:
Yeah, I think it—pretty much. I was 25. I don’t know anybody that was that young. It
just—I was able to build up a lot of hours and in the right place at the right time to
transfer to the left seat, yeah. So…
JB:
So how many—how often were your missions on your—on the third rotation?
JF:
There—yeah, we were flying out of Guam—out of Thailand, and we were probably
flying four days a week. You know, they were short missions. I happened to be on a crew
that was called Pave Buff, and it was a permanent lead crew. They had very—that
particular—they had two airplanes and four crews, and that particular airplane had some
very high capacity navigation equipment. It could measure your airspeed down to a
hundredth of a knot. It could measure your location down to 10 feet or something like
that. It was a LORAN system. And so our mission was to go up, and then other ships
would form on us. And we’d go over the target, and then the planes that were carrying
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ordnance would go back, and then we’d go around and pick up another group, and
we’d—they’d follow us into the target. So we’d do like four or five of those in a day, so
we’d be in—airborne longer than the other planes, so… But there were two aircraft and
four crews that were Pave Buff-qualified, yeah.
JB:
Then you came back for a fourth rotation.
JF:
Fourth rotation really wasn’t much of anything. I went back as an aircraft commander.
And at this point we were no longer flying missions, but we were pulling alert, nuclear
alert. And, you know, honestly, I forget how long that was. I don’t think it was that long a
tour. But we went to Thailand, and we went to Guam. And that was my introduction to
being an aircraft commander, so…
JB:
You have medals? You must have been awarded some medals.
JF:
Yeah, I’ve got, you know, a Distinguished—I was recipient of the Distinguished Flying
Cross, Air Medal, Purple Heart, so…
00:33:49
[Return to the United States and participation in the Strategic Air Command Bombing and
Navigation Competition]
JB:
So after this is over, you return back to the U.S.?
JF:
Yeah. Go back to the U.S. We went back to our primary mission, which was the nuclear
alert. You know, our base—I forget—we had maybe four B-52s that were cocked and
ready to fly. And there were bases like this all over the world, where you had the aircraft
with a preassigned target and pre—and weapons onboard, and the objective was to be—
have the capacity to be airborne in 15 minutes on your way to your target. And that was
our nuclear defense. It was part of what they called the Triad System, where they had sealaunched intercontinental missiles from the submarines, land-based missiles, and the
aircraft, called the Triad. So that was our capacity to wage war on a country that wanted
to wage war on us.
JB:
Well, thank goodness we didn’t have to use that.
JF:
Correct. Yup.
JB:
Competitions for—
JF:
Our crew—
JB:
Bombing competitions, that kind of thing?
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JF:
Okay. Yeah, you’re leading up to—the Strategic Air Command had this bombing and
navigation competition every two years, and it was a very prestigious deal. Each of the
SAC bases would assign a crew and an aircraft to represent that base at this competition.
The Brits sent Vulcans, and the Brits were involved. And the F-111s were involved. It
was a big deal. It was suspended in ‘72 because of the—so many people were over in
Southeast Asia. But in ‘74, the—going to have the first one in four years.
So even though we were a junior crew, our training—the scores in our training missions
were clearly better than everybody, better than anybody. So typically they pick a very
senior crew to represent the base, but we had about half of the perfect scores of the whole
squadron and so they picked us. And it was quite an honor. It was a big honor to
represent the base at this competition in [1974?], called the Strategic Air Command
Bombing and Navigation Competition, so… Particularly as a junior crew. It was fun. It
was a lot of fun, so…
JB:
Can you elaborate more on the competition and how you came out in it or—
JF:
Oh. Yeah. There’s numerous aspects that are measured or scored. Low-level bombing
run, high-level bombing run, navigation, ECM—electronic countermeasures. And when
we took off, we—there were a couple things we didn’t have. One, we didn’t have
autopilot. Our autopilot didn’t work. And it was going to be about a nine-hour mission
that we were going to hand-fly with a very significant—and typically, you have a one—
we had a big offload of fuel, too. So we had two tankers. We were going to tap off two
tankers. And refueling without autopilot is a chore.
So fortunately, the—I had worked with the copilot frequently that he would operate—we
would share responsibility in the middle of it. So we were able to get that offload. But the
real challenge was going to be the navigation leg because you’ve got to maintain altitude
and heading and everything very precisely for about an hour, an hour-and-a-half. And
somehow we ended up with really good navigation scores.
So we took off out of March, going to land in Shreveport, Louisiana. You have all these
scored activities. And then you land in Shreveport, and there’s airplanes from all over the
world that are there. And we did—oh, we did well, really well, on everything except for
the low-level bomb run. And it turns out that our bombardier—there’s one switch
called—and where he goes direct—or indirect, where—anyway, long story short, he
didn’t flip the switch, and we got zeros on all those targets on—and it put us out of the
competition. And we were—but the next flight we flew out of there was the most
professional flight we’ve ever flown. There was no—it was just an amazing flight. We
came back with really good scores. And had we just had average scores or even below
average scores on that one, we would have won the whole thing, which really would have
been cool. But we didn’t. But we had a good time, so…
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JB:
That was—was that fairly close to the end of your service?
JF:
Yeah, that was pretty close to the end. So it was funny at the time, we took—at the time,
Coors beer was very popular. You know, you could get it out west, but you couldn’t get it
back east. And it was a very popular beer. So we took off out of March. We took 12 cases
of beer. We’ll figure we’ll use that as negotiating power. And when we landed at
Shreveport, the Air Force had television cameras and everything. We come walking out
of the plane, each carrying two cases of beer. [laughs] And he said, “No, go back up in
the airplane and come back out without the beer.” So somewhere it’s got us coming out
of the airplane carrying beer, and nobody’s ever seen that, so…
00:39:21
[Influence of military service]
JB:
How were you influenced by your service? Did—it must have made some changes in
your life and the way you looked at things.
JF:
For me, it was a very good experience. You know, I got to do something that was
probably the—well, without a doubt, the most challenging and, at the same time,
rewarding experience. You know, a person in his 20s do—one thing about the military,
whether it’s operating in this capacity or pretty much any capacity, as a young person you
have so much more responsibility at a younger age than you will have in the civilian
world. So I—it was a—a lot of growth for me personally, in terms of responsibility, in
terms of experiences. And I’m—you know, I am—it was a very much of a positive
experience for me. I didn’t have to endure what a lot of guys did on the ground in
Vietnam, so I didn’t necessarily come away with the baggage that maybe a lot of guys
had. But for me personally, the military was a very good experience, yeah. It was good as
personal growth in terms of challenges and with rewards, so…
00:40:51
[Post-military career and hobbies]
JB:
You came out of the service as a commander, aircraft commander. It opened doors for
you?
JF:
Yeah. When I got out, I would have loved to have flown for the airlines, but the airlines
weren’t hiring at the time, except for this one little company that had just started up and
they had seven little business jets, called Federal Express. And I didn’t want to fly for
anybody that didn’t have stewardesses in the back. [laughter] So that’s not fair, but… So
I ended up going into finance as a—I wanted two things: live in Seattle and go into sales.
And I ended up going into investment sales with a very fine brokerage firm, Smith
Barney. And that’s—I spent 35 years in that career in Seattle.
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JB:
How did you pick Seattle? Why Seattle? You’re from New York. You’ve lived in Texas.
You’ve lived in California.
JF:
Yeah.
JB:
Obviously, Guam and Thailand. But why—Seattle’s kind of—
JF:
Well, it would have to be on either one of the coasts. It would have to be somewhere
close to saltwater. I grew up on the north shore of Long Island, and it would have to be
on either one of the coasts. I like the West Coast. Just—it’s newer. It’s fresher. It’s a bit
of a different lifestyle than the East Coast. And I like to camp. I like the mountains. So
you got the mountains. You’ve got the saltwater, Puget Sound. I had a sailboat I like to
sail. I like to camp. I like being near a city. I grew up outside New York City. I did my
service outside Los Angeles. You know, I like the activities that are so—that you can
only get from a city: restaurants, shows, sports teams, things like that. And Seattle had all
that. And at the time, you could get anywhere in 20 minutes. And that’s—now you can
get about two blocks in 20 minutes, so… [laughs] So Seattle was—it was a good choice.
It was a very good choice for me.
JB:
You said you went to work as a—for Smith Barney?
JF:
Yeah, I went to work at Smith Barney, yeah.
JB:
All right. And so you’re a stockbroker? Tell us about your career.
JF:
I was a stockbroker for 14 years, at Smith Barney for five and then at Kidder Peabody for
the balance. And then I went into the management side and managed financial advisors
for several banks, all of it—all of which is in Seattle. Training with Smith Barney. This
is—my training with Smith Barney was in New York City, and this is—and my military
experience helped me in securing that position. You know, typically that firm, which at
the time was a very small firm, would hire people like out of Harvard Business School.
And then I didn’t have that. And I go, “Why do you hire me?” And they said, “Well, we
felt that your military experience was equivalent to something like that.” So in that
respect, the military really helped me launch a career in finance.
But while I was going through training, my wife ran into somebody on the Long Island
Rail Road who worked for American Airlines. They weren’t hiring, but he suggested I
send in my application anyway. So completed training at Smith Barney, came out to
Seattle. Two weeks later, I got a telegram. They wanted to fly me back to New York to
interview for their first class in eight years or something. But Smith Barney treated me
very well through the training, and I didn’t feel it was proper to come right out of their
training program and then go apply for a different job. So I passed on that opportunity.
As it turned out, it worked out just fine. Yeah, so…
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JB:
Are you—so you said the sailboat. Are you still sailing here?
JF:
No. No, my copilot and I had a sailboat when we were in Southern California. [laughs]
We were in Southern California—Riverside, Southern California, which is not the best
place in Southern California, but it’s still Southern California. We had a sailboat together,
so it was a pretty good life. Yeah, you fly airplanes during the day, and then when you
had your time off, you go to Marina del Rey and fly—and sail your sailboat around. I
mean, how tough is that? [laughter] That was pretty good duty, yeah.
JB:
So in school, throughout your school, you’ve been active in sports.
JF:
Yeah.
JB:
Have you continued that? You said earlier you still play basketball. What about the—
JF:
Yeah, yeah.
JB:
What about the rest of it? Have you—
JF:
Well, I—you know, it’s funny. You go back—you reflect back on your youth, and there
were three people in my high school era that really influenced my life, and one was my
basketball coach. He—it is an activity that I’ve continued to participate in. I’m 70 now.
I’m on an over-70 traveling basketball team. And it’s an activity that you can, you
know—it is good. It’s good recreation, and it’s good fellowship, so…
00:45:48
[Involvement with The Museum of Flight]
JB:
When did you get involved in The Museum of Flight?
JF:
Museum of Flight. I was working for Wells Fargo at the time, management. And they’re
very supportive of The Museum of Flight and had—as far as I know, had always had a
member of the management team on the board. The person who was on the board when
they hired me was my boss. And he got promoted and he moved to D.C., so the Museum
was looking for somebody from Wells Fargo and Wells Fargo was looking for somebody
to be on the board. So, you know, I seemed like an easy pick for—from the bank’s point
of view. So I joined the Museum Board and was very honored and privileged. I feel
privileged to be part of it. It’s a wonderful, wonderful organization. It’s much, much
more than just a repository for old airplanes. It’s a dynamic, growing, world-class
institution, and I’m just very pleased to be part of it, so…
JB:
So what did—that’s great. What’s your favorite part of it? Is it the education? Is it the
way they present their exhibits?
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JF:
You know, all of the above. Their exhibitory is world class. Their education outreach is
world class. The quality of the staff is fabulous. The board, an incredibly active and
engaged board. Really. I mean, both financially—and they just don’t write checks. And
they’re very engaged in all the committee chairs and things. And I’ve had an opportunity
to do some—and be part of some very exciting things.
JB:
That’s a—that’s quite a recommendation coming from you because you’ve got
experience on several other boards, with the Boy Scouts, with quite a few other groups—
JF:
Yeah, yeah.
JB:
…that you’ve had.
JF:
Well, nothing—yeah, those are all good organizations that I’ve—privileged to be part of.
But the Museum is clearly a—clearly a notch above everything. Well, the Boy Scouts is
pretty damn good, too. [laughs]
JB:
So currently at the Museum, you’ve got a project going.
JF:
Right. And that’s why I’ve got this—
JB:
Love to hear all about that.
JF:
That’s why we’ve got this model here. So when I became a member of the board of the
Museum, I was really excited to learn that they had a B-52, you know, which is a Boeing
product. Okay. The Museum is on Boeing Field, okay. And the Boeing Company has
been—it’s not the Boeing Museum, but Boeing has been a big supporter of the Museum
for a long time. And we’ve got all kinds of Boeing aircraft. The Boeing Red Barn.
There’s a lot of Boeing heritage and DNA in that museum. And having been a B-52 pilot,
I was really thrilled to find out that, hey, the Museum actually had a B-52. It was up at
Paine Field. And then I found out, yeah, it had been there for over 20 years. It was too big
and too expensive, and they had zero plans, had just like forgot about it.
Shortly after I got here, there was a reunion on our B-52. It was an Ellsworth bird when it
was—it’s a Vietnam vet in its own right. It was—it came out of Ellsworth. And there was
a 40-year Linebacker II reunion around our aircraft. A guy named Bob Bogash had been
very engaged in promoting our aircraft through his website. Some people from Ellsworth
found out about this airplane, and there was a reunion around the airplane of Ellsworth
Linebacker II participants. And I was a connection. I was a B-52 guy. I was on the board.
The airplane was here. And myself and several of the crewmembers decided that, you
know, we got to do something about this. We just can’t let this thing delay up there—just
decay up there. And I felt duty-bound, being a board member and a B-52 person and
soon-to-be retired, that we do something about this thing.
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So we didn’t know—we thought, well, first thing they need is money, you know. If we go
out there, we start—we raise enough money, then we’ll get somebody’s attention and we
can—whatever happens, we’re going to need money. So we got all excited, and we’re
going to go out and we’re going to raise all this money. And the Museum came to us and
said, “Hey, you guys are great, but we’ve got this big capital campaign, 77-million-dollar
multi-year capital campaign, and we don’t want you—the vets out there running around
dirtying up the waters, getting people confused about donating money.” So the whole
project was put on—what I—was put on hold.
The first concern was, well, where do we put it, you know. And there was some—looked
around Paine Field and there were some opportunities in Paine Field, but there weren’t—
anything where the public would have access to it. So that didn’t work. And I thought it
would be great to have it up on stanchions so people would have to drive under the wing
to get into the Museum. But that didn’t—that idea didn’t go very far. But then Doug,
Doug King, who is the CEO of the Museum, said, “You know, beyond—we’re building
this big building to house all our large aircraft. Just beyond that there is a plot of land.
Why don’t we use the aircraft as a centerpiece for a park that is a memorial or a tribute to
the air war in the Vietnam War?” And so that’s—that was when Project—well,
somebody called it Project Welcome Home—was started.
Project Welcome Home is—so at the airport, the air—the Museum has the aircraft, the
Museum has the location, the Museum has the support staff. And we put together a group
of aviator-type—Vietnam aviator vets that are primarily focusing on fundraising to bring
this whole project together. And it’s coming along great. It’s coming along—it’s—I’m
really happy to report it’s coming along well. Very, very well received by anybody that
learns about it. The aircraft has been painted. Looks great. Next year it’ll be dismantled
and transported down to the Museum and reconstructed on the park site. The other
principal element is going to be a statute, eight- to nine-foot high statue of a returning
airman. And we’ve contracted a terrific sculptor who’s working on that now.
So we’re going to have—the name keeps changing. It’s going—right now it’s called the
Vietnam Veterans Commemorative Park. So yeah, that—I’m spending a fair amount of
time working on that, working with my fellow vets that are promoting this project, so…
Dedication is to be in 2000—fall of 2018. And it’s going to be—there’s going to be
nothing like it in the country, particularly in the Northwest. Northwest really doesn’t
embrace the military, you know, politically around here. And this will stand out,
particularly in the Northwest, as a tribute to the participants in the Vietnam conflict. And
anyway, yeah. It’s a project that I’m really involved in and I’m really enjoying it, yeah.
JB:
It’s a great project.
JF:
Thank you.
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JB:
And I think your comment on the Northwest not in—paying tribute to them is well taken.
JF:
Yeah.
[scene transition]
00:53:53
[Choosing between bombers and fighters]
MIKE MARTINEZ: Jim, I—couple of things I heard you saying that I would just—piqued my
interest. One is you talked about training in bombers and in the T-38, the fighters.
JF:
Yeah.
MM: Was there a choice? Did you have a choice to go to fighters as a pilot or—and/or
bombers? Or was that an assignment? How did—
JF:
It depends on where you ended up in the class, you know. If you were number one in
your class, you pretty much got whatever you wanted.
MM: Could pick anything.
JF:
You would get whatever you wanted. If you were the last guy in your class, you got
whatever the last plane was, had come down.
MM: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
JF:
I was in the middle of the class. And I wanted a bomber. I wasn’t high enough to get a
fighter. Even if I was, I wouldn’t have selected a fighter.
MM: Was that some ambition that you had [unintelligible 00:54:35]?
JF:
Well, I realized the military and I would—I was not going to make the military a career,
and I thought the transition from a heavy jet in the Air Force would be—give me the—a
leg up on getting an airline job.
MM: That’s true.
JF:
Yeah.
MM: That’s a good idea. I was also—let me see if I can see my notes here. Are there still Gmodels or anything earlier flying or is it just strictly Hs?
JF:
No, just the Hs. Yeah.
00:55:05
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[Crewmates]
MM: Just the Hs, okay. I was wondering if you had at any point—do you still meet with your
old crew? At least the four of you—or I guess there would have been five—
JF:
Well, a six-person crew. Three have died.
MM: Three have passed away?
JF:
So one—one was—yeah. So there’s only three of us left, and I’m still in contact. One is
a—one is a mathematics professor. And this is an interesting aside. So—
MM: No problem.
JF:
His name is Paul Fairbanks, and he was our electronics warfare officer. And prior to
coming into the Air Force, he had been a high school math teacher for a couple of years.
And he had been trying to get a job at the Air Force Academy as a math instructor and
couldn’t get to first base. Couldn’t get an interview.
Well, when we got shot down and rescued, we were kind of the celebrity of the week
within the Air Force. The next thing you know is he’s getting an interview at the Air
Force Academy. And he goes there for the interview, and they don’t care about his math
background. They all wanted to know what it was like to be over there and get, you
know, that whole experience. Ends up they—the Air Force sent him off to get his
Master’s and PhD in mathematics and spent the rest of his career teaching math at the Air
Force Academy. So many good—then when he retired as a lieutenant colonel, went back
to his alma mater, and I think he’s still teaching math back there, so…
MM: So they’re all located in different parts of the country?
JF:
Yeah. He’s up in Massachusetts. And the navigator got out and worked as an analyst for
the CIA in D.C. And the pilot stayed in and retired—my—when I—I’m talking about the
crew that we were in Southeast Asia together.
MM: Right.
JF:
He stayed in, retired, got a job in California flying for a small regional airline, and had a
midair collision and died. Yeah. And the gunner—the gunner died somewhere along the
way, so…
MM: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
JF:
So, yeah. So of our crew, there’s only three of us left.
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MM: Three of you.
JF:
But I’m in touch with the other two guys.
MM: Are you planning any plans to have them come up for the—
JF:
Oh, yeah. I’ll—they’ll be invited up for the—certainly for the [unintelligible 00:57:14].
00:57:16
[On being shot down and rescued behind enemy lines]
MM: When you were shot down, I was curious, how long were you on the ground?
JF:
Just about six hours. [unintelligible 00:57:24] dark and probably picked up midday later
that day.
MM: Who picked you up? Was it Air Force?
JF:
The Air Force. There’s a couple of really interesting side stories here. So we’re on the
ground. We’re spread out over about five miles. And this is where all the training comes
in, you know. When we punched out—we went out 16,000 feet. I’ll just tell the story a
little bit. Our chutes are designed to automatically open at 14,000 feet and below, okay.
So if you go out at 300 feet—[snaps fingers]—your chutes automatically open. But if you
go out at 40,000 feet, you know, it’s free—it’s like minus 60 degrees up there. You
freefall until you hit 14, and then the chute opens.
So we went out at 16,000 feet, and it was clear we weren’t going to be—make it back to
anywhere or—we had no hydraulics or no electrical power. Nothing worked in terms of
like getting gear down, things like that. So we went out at 16, free fell in the chute, big
explosion on the ground, and anyway. Tree penetration. Keep your legs together. Turn
your head sideways so that your chin doesn’t catch branches as you’re going through. On
the ground. And I go away, find a place to hide and wait for the good guys to come.
Couple hours later, this jet comes overhead. And I didn’t know it at the time, but there
were four of them, A-7s. They’re rescue—they’re designed to rescue guys. And end up
talking to this guy, Sandy One. And their job is to suppress any bad guys—there weren’t
any bad guys around me that I could see—and direct the helicopter, this big thing called a
Jolly Green Giant. So just big rescue helicopters. I’m going to shorten the story. So
ultimately, talking to this guy. And helicopters, a couple hours later, come by. And at the
time—this is before GPS—what you would do, you’d be on your survival radio, and you
had a little compass, and you’d tell the helicopter what direction to fly to come to you.
MM: Okay.
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JF:
Okay. So you’d say, “Fly so-and-so heading.” And then you would direct the helicopter
to you. By the sound of a helicopter, you’d be telling him which direction to fly. So the
helicopter comes. I had been hiding for a while, a couple of—several hours. And I could
hear the helicopter. He’s about a mile—about 100, maybe 100, 200 yards away. But it’s
foggy out, and he can’t see the ground. And the guy says—and they won’t penetrate fog.
They won’t—and they won’t let the tree penetration—the rescue line go down until they
could see the ground.
And he says, “We can’t see the ground.” He says—then he says, “Wait a second. We got
a hole in the—we could see the ground. If you can make it to us, we can get you out.” So
at that point, I go running through the jungle to the sound of a hovering helicopter. By the
time I got there—as fast as I could, which is not very fast. By the time I got there, the
clouds had covered over and he couldn’t see the ground. Well, I could hear him right
above me, but he can’t do anything about it.
So then he tells me, “We’re running out of fuel. We’ve got to go refuel.” [laughs] And
then Paul comes up on the line. He’s the instructor. He’s the math instructor. And he
says, “Hey, Jolly One.” He says, “I landed on this ridge above the cloud deck. On your
way out, can you pick me up?” And Paul and I, you know, we did a lot of competitive
things. Whether we played chess or tennis or basketball or pool, whatever, he always
won. And I go, “That son of a bitch,” you know. “He’s going to beat me again.” [laughs]
So they go pick up Paul, and they come back in about an hour later. And that was—that
was the low point of my life, to have a helicopter right above me leave. Not only leave
me, but go pick up Paul. [laughs] By the time they came back, the helicopter—you know,
the fog had burnt off and they were able to rescue me.
A couple other side stories. So some of the side stories. And then we picked up the
gunner. If you don’t mind some of these stories, but I like telling them.
JB:
No.
MM: You were relatively in the same area?
JF:
Yeah, we were spread out maybe over about four or five miles. But we weren’t in—
MM: You weren’t together?
JF:
…close proximity to each other. So the PJ, the guy who is all armed and everything, had
to go down and help the gunner or somehow come up and got him back on the plane. So
I’m telling this because there’s another story down the road.
So on my third rotation, I go back. I’m in the club. And I walk into the club, and here is
the squadron—the squadron who flew the A-7s is heading back to the States on a cargo
plane. Had a mechanical malfunction, so they had to divert into our base and they’re
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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spending the night while the plane’s fixed. And I walk into the club, and here are the
guys that I was talking to when I was on the ground and they’re flying their jets around.
MM: I’ll be darned.
JF:
I’ll tell you, that was cool. It was a very expensive evening, too. [laughter]
MM: You had to buy a lot of drinks.
JF:
So anyway. So one of the—two of the stories that came out of that. The one guy, Arnie
[Clark?], who is the lead guy I was talking to, retired from the Air Force and took a job at
Lake Wen—at Wenatchee Airport. Now, we have a second home over at Lake
Wenatchee. And we got together 40 years later, you know. And he took me up in his
private plane and [unintelligible 01:02:59].
MM: Wow.
JF:
But the reason I was able to keep in touch with him is a girl I went out with in high
school, Patty [Beatty?]—neat, neat lady—ended up marrying a guy from West Point
whose dad was in the Air Force, so he ended up in the Air Force, and he was in that
squadron. And he was actually manning the command post the night we went out, and it
was his job to launch—
MM: [unintelligible 01:03:25]
JF:
…to launch the rescue forces to go get us. And he was a captain at the time. And it was at
night, and he gets this call from this general saying, “Launch the—you guys launch and
go get those guys.” And they had to say, “No, we have to wait until first light because we
don’t do this in the dark—we can’t do this in the dark.” So anyway, this all came—pieces
came together years later, that all these things were woven together. And I was able to
keep track of Arnie through the person that I had gone out with in high school who was
married to the guy that was in his squadron.
MM: [unintelligible 01:03:56]
JF:
So anyway, I get—that’s one of the stories. The other one is the—oh, I don’t know, six
months later, I’m in Castle Air Force Base in Texas. I’m in the O Club, and I’m going
through some training there. And this guy sitting next to me starts telling me a story
about the gunner that had been rescued in Vietnam, was shot down. And anyway, his
story was like 10 times better than it actually was because that was—I didn’t have the
heart to tell him, “Hey, listen, I was on that helicopter. That’s not the way the story went
down.” [laughs] So I just let him—I just said, “That’s a good story, yeah.” So it’s funny
how these things get embellished over time as they get told down the road, so…
MM: Yeah, absolutely.
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JF:
Anyway.
MM: Yeah.
JF:
So.
MM: That’s funny. I also—just curious, do you know what brought you down?
JF:
Surface-to-air missile. What they call a SAM.
MM: The SAM? Okay.
JF:
Surface-to-air missile. SAM II at the time. I knew the one was going to get us—this—at
the—most of the SAMs are fired ballistically. Now, okay, there’s very much an
electronic war up there. We had electronic countermeasures on our aircraft. We also had
escort fighters called Wild Weasels, and their job was to—they would pick up on a radar
coming up from the ground, and they would fire—their missiles would hone in on that
site. So the people on the ground knew this, so they would come up briefly and they
would triangulate. They’d come up for like 10 seconds and then go down, their radar.
And so many of their missiles were fired ballistically. They’d figure out where the plane
is, what their altitude is, and then fire ballistically. They—because they didn’t want to
stay up too long.
MM: Right.
JF:
Because the Wild Weasels would get them. But the one that got us was being directed.
You can tell it was—it was changing its heading as it headed up. And we were literally
in—about to initiate our bomb release, which took about seven or eight seconds, when
this thing let off on the ground. So the bombs were—literally passed the missile. And
about one second after our last bomb was released, it detonated. The way these things
worked, they had a proximity fuse, and if they sensed they were near something, they
would explode and it would go from a bullet to a shotgun. So we could see that—I could
see that this one was going to get us.
We were fortunate in that—for a couple of reasons. One, we didn’t catch on fire. And
although it hit us and a lot of guys were wounded over the thing, we were—we had the
ability to continue doing our jobs. Training—[snaps fingers]—kicked in like that. We
were fortunate that we were flying a D-model because it had D-model—on a B-52, the
primary air control is our spoilers. It’s a piece of crap to fly, but if you want to turn right,
you turn your yoke right, the spoilers on the right, the spoilers are—come up and that
wing ceases to provide lift, it falls and you turn right, okay. It’s just a piece of crap to fly.
But our plane had—the D-model had a connect—a mechanical linkage to inboard
ailerons, which are pretty useless in normal flight, but under these conditions when we
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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lost our hydraulic power—we had no hydraulic power, no electrical power—we had
mechanical linkage to a trim tab on that inboard aileron, which enabled us to maintain
some kind of control. We were in a continuous descent, though, in order to maintain
airspeed.
MM: So you lost some engines as well then?
JF:
Yeah. So we were losing engines. And initially, to maintain 210, we had to—we were in
about a 500-foot per minute. We had gravity feed going to our engines, but we didn’t
know which ones because our electronics didn’t work. Ultimately, as we lost engines, we
were—went down about 2,000 feet per minute in a rate of descent, and that’s when the
aircraft commander gave us the bailout order, so… So that’s probably a lot more
information than you want to know, but—
MM: That’s very interesting.
JF:
But it was a long answer to it was a surface-to-air missile, SAM II. And I guess they fired
a lot of them. Maybe—I’ve heard sources say like 1,200 of them over those several days,
so… They’d fire them up in salvos, two or three at a time.
MM: So it was just basically shrapnel that—
JF:
Say again?
MM: It was basically shrapnel that hit you somewhere and—
JF:
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
MM: …took out the hydraulics and the electronics.
JF:
Yeah, yeah.
MM: Okay. Thank you. You mention being back at the U.S.—back to the United States on
nuclear alert, I guess it was. I was just curious where you were based at that point and—
JF:
March. March Air Force Base in Riverside, California.
MM: Okay. Were you married at the time?
JF:
Yes.
MM: Okay. Was—so was your wife then following you around? Was she in Thailand and
Cam—and—
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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JF:
Actually, when we got shot down, we were at—we were flying out of Guam, and the EW
who ended up being the instructor, his wife and my wife flew over, and we rented a
place, and she was actually on Guam when we got shot down, yeah.
MM: Okay. Good.
JF:
So fortunately, they had rescued us by the time they had found the wives, and they were
able to just tell them, “The bad news is they got shot down. The good news is that they’re
alive and we picked them up.” Yeah.
01:09:23
[The Museum’s B-52]
MM: Good. Okay. I think we only got one more question. I was just curious about the
Museum’s B-52. Is that a loaner? How did it come to be part of the Museum?
JF:
I guess it was on a—there—in the SALT talks, the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty, we
were required to decommission all the Ds and all the Gs, with the exception of 20—10
Gs, which are on museums. And so the Air Force provided it to us in, I guess, 1991 on—
at the time, it was on a long-term loan. Now, I don’t know if it’s still on that loan or not,
you know. I’m sure they don’t want to back. [laughs]
MM: But it couldn’t be moved because of the SALT treaty.
JF:
Right, right. Yeah. While it was here, every—if any time they moved it on Paine Field,
they had to coordinate with the Ruskies. There was a modification so that the Russians
would know where its position was, so…
MM: Okay. Very good.
JF:
So you got to do the same thing again to move it down there.
JF:
I don’t know. I think that’s over at this point. I don’t think this—
MM: Yeah, I think in the last two years it—
JF:
Yeah, I think it’s—
MM: …expired. [laughs]
JF:
…like it’s a moot point. Yeah, what—so…
JB:
Where was I at? So…
JF:
Peder, are you still awake over there? [laughs]
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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01:10:58
[Closing thoughts]
JB:
Are there any topics I’ve missed? Do you have any other topics you’d like to discuss?
JF:
Good question. I’m not prepared—I wish I had—hadn’t thought about that. Just being in
the military for me was a very positive—it was a very positive experience. I think it’s
underappreciated. I would have never been in the military had it not been for the draft,
you know. Actually, my ended up in this capacity was my way of dodging a draft. Back
in 1968/69, the war was going hot and heavy, and guys were getting drafted, and I was
going to run on a college deferment, so—but now it’s—people aren’t forced into that—
into it. I personally think that it should be some sort of mandatory service for everybody,
you know. Maybe go into the military or you have—you work in the cities, you work in
the parks. But if everybody gave 18 months to service, they’d learn a lot.
So I guess I’m saying this because if anybody watches this in the future, to not poo-poo
the opportunity to serve the country and do a—themselves a lot of good by participating
in the military. A lot of really smart people. And when I got out of the Air Force, the two
things I missed was, one, flying airplanes, and two, the caliber of people I got to work
with every day in the Air Force. Just very professional. Everybody from the guy boxing
the lunches to the command—base commanders, they are all pros. And that’s something
you don’t necessarily see in the civilian world. So anyway, there’s my pitch.
JB:
Well, I got to thank you for your service. And all your service, not only in the military,
but to The Museum of Flight and all the other organizations you’ve helped.
JF:
My pleasure. My pleasure.
JB:
And thank you for your willingness to participate in this oral history and wish you the
very best for the future.
JF:
Thanks, John. My pleasure.
JB:
I look forward to this new Vietnam display.
JF:
It’s going to be important to an awful lot of people. And it’s just—we’re getting great
support. It’s going to be—it’s going to be fun—it’s going to be a meaningful project,
so… Anyway, thank you.
JB:
Thank you.
JF:
Okay. Yeah.
01:13:45
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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[END OF INTERVIEW]
2017 © The Museum of Flight
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Museum of Flight Oral History Collection
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The <strong>Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</strong> chronicles the personal stories of individuals in the fields of aviation and aerospace, from pilots and engineers to executives. This collection, which dates from 2013 to present, consists of digital video recordings and transcripts, which illustrate these individuals’ experiences, relationship with aviation, and advice for those interested in the field. By the end of 2019, approximately 76 interviews will have had been conducted. The interviews range in length from approximately 20 minutes to 4 hours and 45 minutes. Most interviews are completed in one session, but some participants were interviewed over multiple occasions.</p>
<p>The personal stories in this collection span much of the modern history of flight, from the Golden Age of Aviation in the 1930s, to the evolution of jet aircraft in the mid-twentieth century, to the ongoing developments of the Space Age. The selected interviewees represent a wide range of career paths and a diverse cross-section of professionals, each of whom made significant contributions to their field. Among the many interviewees are Calvin Kam, a United States Army veteran who served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War; Robert “Bob” Alexander, a mechanical engineer who helped design the Hubble Telescope; and Betty Riley Stockard, a flight attendant during the 1940s who once acted as a secret parcel carrier during World War II.</p>
<p>The production of the videos was funded by Mary Kay and Michael Hallman. Processing and cataloging of the videos was made possible by a 4Culture "Heritage Projects" grant.</p>
<p>Please note that materials on TMOF: Digital Collections are presented as historical objects and are unaltered and uncensored. See our <a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/disclaimers-policies">Disclaimers and Policies</a> page for more information.</p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-current
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://archives.museumofflight.org/repositories/2/resources/6">Guide to the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
The Museum of Flight Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Permission to publish material from the Museum of Flight Oral History Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2019-00-00.100
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from an item
<a href="https://digitalcollections.museumofflight.org/assets/Transcripts/OH_Farmer_Jim.pdf">View the transcript</a>
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Farmer, Jim
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Barth, John
Martinez, Mike
Biographical Text
<p>James “Jim” Farmer is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a pilot aboard the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress. He was born and raised in Long Island, New York. His father was a World War II veteran who worked for a plumbing supply company. His mother worked as a nurse’s aide.</p>
<p>In 1969, Farmer graduated from Adelphi University (New York) with a degree in Business Administration. He then joined the U.S. Air Force and attended Officer Training School at Lackland Air Force Base (Texas). After completing Undergraduate Pilot Training, he was assigned to the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress at March Air Force Base (California).</p>
<p>During the Vietnam War, Farmer served four rotations in Southeast Asia. He participated in Operations Linebacker I and Linebacker II and was ultimately promoted to aircraft commander. In 1972, his B-52 was shot down by a surface-to-air missile over North Vietnam. He and most of his crew were successfully rescued from behind enemy lines. Over the course of his wartime service, he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Medal, and the Purple Heart.</p>
<p>After completing his combat tours, Farmer’s subsequent assignments included serving nuclear alert at March AFB and participating in the Strategic Air Command Bombing and Navigation Competition. He left the service in the mid-1970s and relocated to Seattle, Washington, where he embarked on a career in the finance industry. During his 30-plus years in the field, he worked for Smith Barney, Kidder Peabody, and Wells Fargo.</p>
<p>Farmer has served on the board of several nonprofit organizations, including the Boy Scouts of America, Rotary Club, and The Museum of Flight. He also served on the Project Welcome Committee, spearheading efforts to restore the Museum’s B-52 aircraft and construct a memorial park paying tribute to Vietnam War veterans. As of 2020, he is an active Museum Trustee, serving on the Board’s Executive Committee.</p>
<p>Biographical information derived from interview and additional information provided by interviewee.</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OH_Farmer_Jim
Title
A name given to the resource
Jim Farmer oral history interview
Language
A language of the resource
English
Bibliographic Citation
A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible.
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection/The Museum of Flight
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
The Museum of Flight Oral History Collection (2019-00-00-100), Digital Recordings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Description
An account of the resource
Born-digital video recording of an oral history with James "Jim" Farmer and interviewer Jim Farmer, recorded as part of The Museum of Flight Oral History Program, October 26, 2017.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories (literary works)
born digital
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-26
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Guam
Thailand
Vietnam
Washington (State)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Air pilots, Military
Boeing B-52 Stratofortress Family (Model 464)
Bombing, Aerial
Farmer, Jim
Museum of Flight (Seattle, Wash.)
Operation Linebacker II, 1972
Operation Linebacker, 1972
United States. Air Force
United States. Air Force. Strategic Air Command
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1 recording (1 hr., 13 min., 45 sec.) : digital
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Abstract
A summary of the resource.
<p>Vietnam War veteran James “Jim” Farmer is interviewed about his military service as a Boeing B-52 Stratofortress pilot. He discusses his wartime experiences in Southeast Asia, including his participation in Operations Linebacker I and Linebacker II, and shares other highlights from his U.S. Air Force service. He also discusses his involvement with The Museum of Flight and his work on Project Welcome Home, the Museum’s campaign to construct a memorial park paying tribute to Vietnam War veterans.</p>
Table Of Contents
A list of subunits of the resource.
Introduction and personal background -- College years -- Air Force flight training -- Thoughts on the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress -- Service in Southeast Asia -- Return to the United States and participation in the Strategic Air Command Bombing and Navigation Competition -- Influence of military service -- Post-military career and hobbies -- Involvement with The Museum of Flight -- Choosing between bombers and fighters -- Crewmates -- On being shot down and rescued behind enemy lines -- The Museum’s B-52 -- Closing thoughts